That reminds me of an old Erma Bombeck book, where she recounts her daughter's boyfriend who, in order to avoid buying her daughter presents, managed to make her angry just before every major and minor holiday!

Oh, by the way, gifts and cynicism don't usually mix well. Realistic or not, can you imagine presenting a couple with a gift at their two year anniversary? "Congrats, folks, for not botching things up! I now deem you worthy of my generosity!"

How about after 7 years? Or after the kids head off to college? If you're that cheap, just don't buy one at all buddy.

Surely you're making this one up Amy? I suggest a nice heavy lead crystal ashtray so they have something to thump him with when he reminds them "I told you most marriages don't last past 2 years, what a waste that present was. Thanks for dinner and the band though."

/begin rant

How about getting rid of wedding gifts?

It is one thing to give two broke 19 year-olds just getting started in life a few sheets, pots and pans, maybe a dish set and the like in order to help them start up a house, particulary before birth control was widely available, as kids would soon show up.

But in this day and age, we don't want people to marry at 19, and kids are optional, so gifts seems a tad off-key. Pleading them not to marry or have kids any time soon is more appropriate.

And why should I give 32 year-old professionals earning six figures gifts to get them started? I see them wandering the aisls of Crate and Barrel, picking out cherry-wood bedroom sets and imported glass such and such items. Are you @#$% kidding me? Those people expect other people to buy them really expensive stuff because they finally decided to marry the lawyer-boyfriend they have been living with for 6 years? Plus, those yuppies expect people to drop everything for a weekend, fly across the country to the wedding, and spend a ton of money to stay in hotels, attend parties, etc., all in recognition of "The Day", where the pretty, pretty princess will be coronated and adored.

Screw that narcissistic crap. I will send a check to feed starving kids somewhere and stay home. Society is screwed up, man.

Getting married is the start of a long, worthwhile, often tiring, but hopefully enjoyable adventure. That reality seems lost in all the nonsense people deploy at the outset. (Come to think of it, the nonsense is deployed precisely because that reality is what people want to avoid or deny.)

/end rant

I still don't get why people don't simply have a small, tasteful party post-nuptials, and put a down payment on a house. I'd buy someone a gift just for having the sense to do that.

Razor, I agree. Personally I think large fancy weddings are a waste of money. And Spartee, I think making a donation to a cause the couple supports is a great idea.

And why should I give 32 year-old professionals earning six figures gifts to get them started?

I give my friends gifts for these sorts of things because I love them and want to express that affection and those good wishes in a tangible way. I buy what I can afford to give and want to give. A friend of mine is having her third baby and would never give herself another shower, but I bought something for the second one and I'll buy something for this one, too.

Gifts are always optional. As such, there's no need to be bitter about "having" to give them.

I have a couple weddings coming up where everyone involved is already pretty well established. And it seems that their opinion is "If you must give us a gift, whatever. We don't NEED anything though."

And at least part of Spartee's rant is historical - the whole wedding gift and registration thing was about getting the new young couple started off on their life together. Late or second marriages however, there's often already a fully furnished and equipped house somewhere in the mix.

I usually punt and give cash anyhow. The original gift certificate - accepted everywhere.

I'm getting married in August and have refused to register much to my families chagrin. Its not even that we are that established, though we have been living on our own and together for quite some time which helps you acquire the basics. Its that so much crap that no one ever needs goes on those registries just to fill the space. Maybe I'm weird, but the thought of accumulating that much stuff makes me break out in hives.

I'm getting married in August and have refused to register much to my families chagrin.

Yeah. We registered only because family members were getting really antsy about us not being registered anywhere. We're not telling people unless they ask.

I don't know how well this would play out in secular nuptuals, but I was gratified to receive a gift certificate for a couple's retreat weekend - for use at our third anniversary - as a wedding gift. The uncle who got it for us also gave another small gift. Pre-wedding counseling is required and provided at our church, which I think is a good system. In my opinion, that's a classy way to address the concerns the letter-writer has without being construed as cheap!

We registered only because we were pestered to. I ended up with very inexpensive china that I never used and sold later at a garage sale. But we did have some fun with it...got lots of laughs at the boxing gloves on our list at Service Merchandise (I really miss that store).

Oh! Service Merchandise! That store was great. I remember, as a kid, being enchanted with the setup. Picking out what you want in the catalog and then going up to the front and waiting for it to come out of the back. The anticipation was wonderful and terrible.

Sorry for the mundane thread-jack. Suddenly, I was 8 years old and standing with my mother at the counter again.

Thank you, MonicaP. Gift-giving is a way for family/friends to express their great joy on the couple's happy day. Many people (especially older, more traditional ones) find it easier to be given a list of gifts to choose from, a la the registry. It's up to the family/friends to decide for themselves how to participate.

"And why should I give 32 year-old professionals earning six figures gifts to get them started?"

You give people you love gifts to show you're happy at their happiness and good fortune and wish them well. Whether it's at their wedding or just some tuesday. If you don't love them, you shouldn't be attending their nuptuals, which may be their mistake with the guest list.

I ADORED Service Merchandise!!

I think this column goes with Amy's blog item on the entitled lady stealing milk. I posted over there that people want to do nice things for people who do not feel entitled to them. For people like that, a registry is a way to make it easier for people to buy gifts. But with the gift-grubbers, the registry says to their guests "I'm providing you with tiny mediocre food, so you must buy me a Lalique punchbowl that I will never use." Buying off the registry is optional (actually, so is buying a gift at all), because some people register for superexpensive stuff just because they can. As a whole, I am with Miss Manners thinking gift registries are gauche, but I am happy to go along with it for people I like, which happen to be the only weddings and baby showers I go to.

And I think more stores should use the Service Merchandise way of shopping. There's something thrilling about getting that little card and going to the conveyor belt to watch your item come out.

I remember clear as day my 21st birthday party. It was a joint party - my 21st, my mum's 50th and my parents' silver wedding. That's a lot of celebrating to do.

My parents asked that anyone who wanted to give them anything instead make a donation to a particular charity. They didn't need anything from the birthday or from the anniversary - they wanted to celebrate with each other, with their family and with their friends - and if anyone wanted to give a gift, they'd picked out a charity they'd cared about who could receive it.

I think at the moment that's about the best thing you can do - ignoring a situation where people genuinely need stuff, in which case you should get them stuff: find a charity close to the person's heart and make a donation.

Razor, when I got engaged I asked my Dad if we could do a small gathering and if I could have the money to pay off my student loan. His answer? "You're no fun! No."

So I had a party. And it was fun, and I liked it. And I'm almost done paying off my student loan.

In any case, I think our society has too few mixed-generation formal parties. Weddings are the last hold-outs. And sometimes baptisms. It's nice to get dressed up and eat and dance.

In any case, I think our society has too few mixed-generation formal parties. Weddings are the last hold-outs. And sometimes baptisms. It's nice to get dressed up and eat and dance.

With you on that one NicoleK. I love weddings - they don't have to be expensive or fancy, the concept of a formal event where everyone gets together for a celebration is enough. And they're a good excuse to drag everyone from mothers, aunts, friends, etc onto the dance floor...

Shame I'm running out of them, most of my friends who are likely to marry have already done so. Still I suppose it's inevitable that some of them will go through round two in the next ten years - so more parties to come!

I understand about the pestering about registering! People are asking us to do it and we can't really.
We are mid to late 40s and having a small ceremony at a nice restaurant w/ 30-35 family and friends.
Our wedding would have been a little bigger(50-60 people) but I lost my job last May and we are struggling financially. 2 months after the wedding we are moving to the UK where my fiance is from as we want to be near his parents(mine are gone)
So,not only do we not need anymore stuff, I am in the process of selling off a lot of what we own.
In total, our wedding, including clothing is going to be about $5 grand so we are doing it pretty inexpensively.
We are hoping that people who want to give gifts just give money. We can recoup some of what we are spending which would be great. We don't expect to get back what we spend but it would be helpful to even get back a small part of it.
I just really want to enjoy my evening with the people I love the most, especially when I will not be seeing my friends and family as much with the move.
I just want to look as beautiful as a chunky 48 year old can look and have a sweet night with good food, a few drinks, my closets peeps, and marry my sweetheart.I waited a very long time for him!

We give gifts to people when we are happy for them and want them to know we love them. For those who don't like to give wedding/baby shower presents, then DON'T, but also stay home. Not because you have to give a present to "pay for" your attendance at the reception, but because you obviously don't like the guests of honor well enough to celebrate their happy day.

Disclosure: I married last year and had a big reception. As we were already overwhelmed by the huge task of merging all of our stuff into one home, we asked our guests to make a donation to our town's library in lieu of gifts. Some people made donations, and some brought us a gift. Some did both, and some did neither. We sent notes to all, thanking them for donating and/or giving us a gift, or just for showing up and celebrating with us (it was a helluva party!) But I did notice the guests who neither gifted nor donated did not stay very long and contributed very little to the party.

Inexpensive weddings are easy. My husband and I had ours in a beautiful local restaurant. It was Dec 22, so the entire place was decorated for Christmas. The room had a huge fireplace, and a glass wall onto the back patio where there were trees lit. The price tag for about 50 people was $1800. But the best part was getting my husband to wear his bagpipers kilt for the ceremony :D

Some people don't have the choice of "big wedding" versus "saving money". My parents spent a lot of money to give me a beautiful wedding. It was never an option for them to just hand me that money instead.

This reminds me of a cousin of mine who was a nervous marrier. She announced her first marriage, presents were duely sent. She called the wedding off 2 weeks before the ceremony. In about a year, she announced her second try. Presents again were duely sent. She called it off one week before the ceremony. Another year passed and another wedding announcement. No one sent presents. Everyone brought them to the church. Most left them in the car just to make sure she'd show.....

nervous marrier

I am loving that expression. It sound like one of those old-fashioned descriptions of psychological conditions that they didn't really know anything about back then, like hysteria.

Spartee said it a bit more harshly than I would have, but he's got a point.

I've probably shelled out for at least $40,000 in wedding and baby gifts by this point. I'm single and childless and plan to stay that way, so they most likely will not have occasion to reciprocate at my wedding or showers. If it's all about love and celebrating happy days, why don't more of the married friends for whom I've shelled out $2000 in wedding/baby gifts give me a little gift when I get a promotion, run a marathon, get something published or some other special event in my life? (A couple of them have done it, and it really means a lot.)

I hated "Sex and the City", but there was one line I heard about that I liked. Sarah Jessica Parker's character suggested throwing a "thank God I didn't marry the wrong guy" party so that someone would buy her a gift for a change.

If it's all about love and celebrating happy days, why don't more of the married friends for whom I've shelled out $2000 in wedding/baby gifts give me a little gift when I get a promotion, run a marathon, get something published or some other special event in my life?

I see your point. I imagine it doesn't even occur to people to give gifts for these occasions. We tend to give gifts for events that inspire public celebrations, such as weddings, babies and birthdays. The ones who recognize more private accomplishments are good friends.

Ultimately, I don't feel put upon to give people gifts because I don't have to. I can decline the invitation.

It never occurred to me to keep a ledger in my head of incoming vs. outgoing loot. I'm not going to be bitter about buying a good friend a gift for her baby just because I've never gotten a diaper bag in return. Maybe I'm fortunate in that people inclined to take advantage of me don't stay friends for long.

I can identify with what Gail says, re: relatives/friends who conviently forget all the gifts you've given them & their children over the years, when it's their turn to reciprocate. I always bought birthday & Christmas gifts for all my nieces & nephews. Ten to 15 yrs later, when my children were being born & attending family Christmas, i was devastated when they received little to nothing from my brothers & sisters. I come from a rather large RC family, & Christmas was always a HUGE day. It irked me to no end that my children were forgotten.

So i understand where the frustration comes from regarding non-reciprocation, but i never kept a ledger as MonicaP suggests people do... it's normal to openly wonder "what gives??" after years & years of gift giving in my own family, you'd think that a couple of Christmas gifts for my 10 month old child would be in order???

But i also understand Spartee when he talks about people making 6-figure incomes, living together for several years, & then sending out wedding invitations, & it's like some sort of cash-grab, where you are expected to bring a gift, you KNOW they already have everything & more, & if you try to guess at what they might like, you'll make a faux pas. Buying them a goat through one of those agencies that serve 3rd world countries can lose its lustre in the face of a white wedding.

I've never understood how people who live together for any amount of time (meaning: they already have a toaster, a bbq, dishes, pots & pans, towels, etc) can be so crass as to expect guests to buy them more. It makes no sense. Giving them money &/or gift cards makes even less sense. The very act of living together precludes gift giving IMHO.

/end rant

@ BBC re: the nervous marrier (Mar 20 @ 2:28)... i cannot believe that the guests fell for even the 2nd wedding invitation, let alone the 3rd!! Doesn't proper etiquette state that when a wedding is called off (ie: doesn't happen) the gifts MUST be returned to the givers? ...Amy??

@ myself (Mar 22 @ 8:13 am) i would hastily add that i do still give gifts when i'm invited to an occasion. Socialization is ingrained - at least, in me it is. Yes, even in the face of the wedding cash-grab. And, yes, even in the face of non-reciprocation.

But to add to that, it is ultra embarassing when you're invited to a celebration where it is specifically written on the bottom of the invitation "no gifts please" or "best wishes only" and yet, people still show up with gifts!! Where's the etiquette in that? It's hard to know what's the right thing to do these days.

I completely disagree with people claiming that if a couple lived together before the wedding they should receive no gifts. Just because someone takes the time to choose wisely doesn't mean they should be "punished". That's like parents enabling a lazy child and not helping the responsible one.

And even if you think the professional couple doesn't need anything you don't really know their financial situation, and unless they are ridiculously and extravagantly rich, a gift would be welcome.

I am not saying the gifts should be extravagant or anything, but to not bring anything is plain rude. You bring a hostess gift when you attend a party,(I hope) so the same goes to weddings. A thoughtful card and a gift you can easily afford is polite. A donation to a charity, unless specifically requested, sends a preachy message and comes off as a criticism of the couple.

Emma, couples who live together before marriage have HIGHER divorce rates than those who didn't.

But I agree with your basic point... gifts are awesome. They are fun to buy. Buy what you can afford, have fun with it.

The reason we don't celebrate things like promotions is because they happen, hopefully, more often than births and weddings.

I've probably shelled out for at least $40,000 in wedding and baby gifts by this point.

why don't more of the married friends for whom I've shelled out $2000 in wedding/baby gifts give me a little gift when I get a promotion, run a marathon, get something published or some other special event in my life?

Seriously? I mean, I agree that it does seem like an imbalance that we tend to recognize certain ceremonies/achievements with gifts and not others, but you sound just as gift-grubbing in the above statement as those you are criticizing. Expecting gifts (or saying/acting overtly like you are expecting gifts) is unattractive in anyone. Just because you value your achievements (and rightly you should) doesn't mean others are obligated to give you gifts. People want to give gifts to those who don't act like they expect them, otherwise it's a total chore. I love getting gifts; they're fun to open and I like surprises. But I don't expect others to give me things, even for my birthday. That way I can enjoy the gifts I do get that much more, since I haven't had to worry about the ones I won't be getting.

I don't know if this is how you intended your statements above, but you come off as meaning "I've shelled out thousands of dollars for others, it's about damn time someone paid me back for it." If you feel it's a chore to give gifts, then don't give them, or don't be friends with those people. Then you won't have to worry about it.

I don't expect random gifts for my every happy event (although it is certainly lovely when someone does give me a gift). However, while *I* don't expect a gift for *my" happy events, people DO seem to regard receiving wedding and baby gifts as their god-given right and other people's social obligation. That's why people come up with all kinds of phony dumb-ass rules like "the gift should cost as much as the reception dinner". I've heard some of my relatives bitch about "cheap" gifts that don't cover the cost of dinner. (Maybe people should only invite those they love to the dinner, without thinking about getting a gift? Maybe they shouldn't register for gifts at all -- that's what Miss Manners thinks.) And alas, many of those same people don't seem to consider that even a thank-you note is in order.

What I'm wondering is why that is -- why do most people consider giving a wedding or baby gift an imperative social obligation, but not other kinds of gifts? You're expected to reciprocate social invitations, after all. (Oh yes, you are! if someone has you over for dinner, you're supposed to reciprocate! But a lot of people are fairly oblivious to that as well, unfortunately.)

If it is really about loving your friends (and I agree it should be), perhaps more people should give little gifts for things other than getting married and reproducing, especially since not everyone marries and reproduces. I do rather think it would be a nice gesture to reflect on the fact that your friend has bought you lots of presents to celebrate all your happy events, and to consider reciprocating with a little gift now and again. Don't you want to show your single friend you love him?

Now that I've brought up the reciprocating social invitations thing, I do think there's an analogy to be made.

I like cooking and entertaining, so I often throw dinner parties. I don't expect anyone to bring anything. I just expect people to come and enjoy. And I'm certainly not inviting people so I can get free dinners from them. I'm inviting them because I like them. But the fact is, if they never entertain me in return, I begin to become less enthusiastic about cooking for them.

I don't expect a tit-for-tat gourmet meal for each and every time I have them to my place. Maybe they don't have the means to serve fine wine and foie gras, or the time/skill to whip up a fancy meal from scratch, and that's fine. They can have me over once in a while for takeout or grilled cheese or whatever. But yeah, I expect reciprocal hospitality of some kind, or you eventually get dropped from my dinner party lists. (You also get dropped if you don't know how to RSVP. Wanna make something out of it?)

I don't apply the same rule to wedding and baby gifts, of course -- I don't drop friends because they don't reciprocate my wedding gift with a congratulations-on-your-marathon gift. But I do have a extra special warm fuzzy feeling for the friends who occasionally give me a gift even though I'm not breeding or merging.

Gail, your last responses would serve you much better in your arguments with friends and loved ones than the "I've spent this much money, so I deserve something, too!" tone in your earlier post. That's all I was really saying (since I actually agree with you); expecting gifts is wrong no matter which side of it you are on. It's best to leave that part out of it and just address the inconsiderateness of their actions. And since you and I are both Miss Manners fans, I will paraphrase something I read recently, in regard to gifts. In response to a grandma who never received any sort of thank-you call or note from her grandchildren (she lived far away), Miss Manners told her to tell the children's mother that, as it seems the children don't like what I give them, then I will stop sending things, because they obviously don't need the gifts. She said it much nicer than that, of course, but that was the core argument. I know she's said something like that about dinner-party moochers, too. I've stopped inviting certain people places with me, because they never made any attempt to reciprocate at all and didn't seem to enjoy themselves that much when they were there. It's now elementary school anymore; I don't have to invite everyone in the class to my party.

P.S. Totally agree with you on the RSVP thing. How hard is it? Really? How inconsiderate do you have to be to show up someplace that you have not said you will be when asked about it? Those people get dropped from my lists, too. Along with people who say they will come, and then don't because something came up in the interim. Not like a family member unexpectedly dropped by, but more like this one (former) friend of mine who was all set to come over, but then one of her other friends called to invite her to a party. Let me make it easy for you and give you one less obligation to worry about.

what do you think of the idea that wedding gifts should only be given after the two-year mark, to celebrate a couple making it past the "honeymoon stage."

The two year mark? Of what, not wanting to kill each other?
Let me give you some advice. The reason they're called "wedding" gifts is bacause you get them at your wedding.
I'm not saying gifts aren't nice, I'm just saying there are appropriate times to give them and appropraite time not to.