why, oh why, do so many letters have statements similar to: i've been dating a great guy but he gropes me; i've been dating a great woman but she cheats on me; i've been dating a great guy but he has a pesky habit of murdering our neighbors and hiding them in our hamper....i know that abused children learn to accept polar opposites in perception and behavior as a way to handle a parent molesting them. but the letter writers are grownups with other ways to cope and protect themselves... or is it just that too many people just haven't grown up yet?

Because if the LW admitted the S.O. wasn't great, they would have to admit that they needed to do something about it. I think most write in hoping to be told it's ok the way it is, or they will receive magic advice that will fix everything painlessly.

I noticed something this go-round that I didn't when I first read the letter a couple of weeks ago: the LW doesn't say anything about talking to her boyfriend about the way he's acting. Now, I know that most healthy, mature adults would be able to take the hand-prying as the hint (read: anvil to the head) that it is, but maybe he just thinks that's her way of playing his little game. If she hasn't, she should sit him down and explain that it makes her uncomfortable when he gropes her in public. If all she's doing is smacking his hands and shooting him dirty looks, she's acting more like his mommy than his girlfriend. Talk to him about it, LW, and then see what happens. You at least owe him the words before you do anything drastic.

*I'm taking the LW at her word that this is some sort of social dysfunction rather than him being a total self-absorbed jackass.

"I've been dating a great guy for three years."

BUT:

- "... I can't trust him to act appropriately (not grope me in front of my co-workers, make inappropriate small talk, etc.)." But I'm sure he means well.

- "... I kept having to pry his hands off my breasts in the middle of a crowd." Sounds like a real winner!

- "Last week, he tried to grope me in line at the ice cream store in front of a bunch of families." A fine, upstanding citizen!

- "I'm starting to think he has a social anxiety disorder." You can't possibly think that.

- "Am I being unreasonable?" Only to yourself

Of course, I don't know the whole story, and of course, none of us know the fellow the way the LW does, and if we did, we'd... Oh, enough of this already! The guy doesn't know or doesn't care how to act in public. Why in the world is LW tolerating this?

He's NOT a great guy. He's a jackass.

He's an insecure pig. My guess is this is his way of showing other males that he "owns" the LW. I'll bet there is other controlling behavior that she hasn't mentioned.

LW, do yourself a favor and go find a guy who doesn't embarrass you in public. This should be one of the lowest rungs on the ladder that he has to climb. Dump him and move on.

Let's give the guy the benefit of the doubt. LW, tell him that what he's doing bothers you. IF he still does it, knowing that it bothers you, he is NOT a "great guy". He's a "great guy" if he listens to you and stops embarrassing you. End of story.

The truth could be as simple as she is just not giving the young man enough 'love', so he takes 'some' when he can. LW should 'take care' of him before they leave for an engagement, let him be drowsy and boring instead of Mr. Gota-rape.

Three years. My word. My temper would have gotten the better of me by now. As in "Goddammit, knock it off!"

In the letter as printed, she doesn't have one line that indicates she ever grew a backbone. Poor little wuss. Good thing for her that he's such a great guy.

Flynne, what do you mean, tell him? Tell him what, no booby-grabbing when people can see us? He shouldn't have to be told that. Not groping ladies in public is up there with not walking the streets pantsless. If you have to have it spelled out to you, maybe you shouldn't be allowed in public.

I've been dating a great guy

Does this make anyone else have Princess Bride flashbacks?

"Inconceivable!"

Maybe he's from a culture where public displays of affection are perfectly acceptable. Jamaican? Russian?

If she has a problem with it she should tell him, not expect that he would know it bothers her. It is possible someone may think that kissing in public is "up there with walking the streets pantsless". But I am sure this someone would find many others who disagree.

Instead of judging people who are close to you by your own moral compass, is it not reasonable to inform them that a particular habit or custom of their offends you. Regardless of the social norms, calling the man a pig because his actions are different from what one is accustomed seems small minded. Especially if he was not informed this is a problem.

If the BF is only exhibiting this behavior when in public, among relative strangers, then she might be onto something in suspecting an anxiety condition. Certain forms of hypersexuality are linked to social anxiety, which acts as a trigger. This can take the form of groping and inappropriate sexual comments, as the LW describes. If he's groping her when among children at an ice cream parlor, then I suspect that there's more going on than him simply being a pig.

I actually know a mother and son who have a similar condition. They can become very lewd when among crowds of strangers. It's interesting to watch, because you can tell that they're behaving compulsively. They'll go through a cycle where they basically excite themselves into progressively more lascivious behaviors.

Another consideration, is that sexual disinhibition is also associated w/ frontal lobe dysfunction. If the onset of this behavior is recent, and out of character, it would probably be a good idea to speak to a physician.

"Maybe he's from a culture where public displays of affection are perfectly acceptable. Jamaican? Russian?"

A public display of affection is holding hands or putting your arm around her. This jackass is massaging her breasts.

Instead of judging people who are close to you by your own moral compass, is it not reasonable to inform them that a particular habit or custom of their offends you.

That entails a judgment as well PC Avenger. Otherwise why inform them of anything? - you wouldn't be offended.

This is the sort of thing where my grandmother would say, "Were you raised in a barn?"

Many years ago, I worked with an extraordinarily beautiful woman (about 10 years old than me) who was married to an extremely handsome man. They were a knock-out as a couple.

But the husband had the same problem. I remember feeling slightly jealous of this woman (well, she was so darned beautiful, like Wonder Woman, Lynda Carter!), but then one day chanced into some room in the building somewhere where she was explaining this to a co-worker and crying her eyes out. I can still conjure up that image of her face. She looked to be in utter despair. Her husband was also insisting on sex several times a day.

If he has a psychological problem he should really get it checked out before the LW has her own serious crisis over it. I lost track of this couple, but my guess is that they probably divorced. It was so sad, but this woman said she felt like she was literally being "consumed" by her husband.

It sounds like he does have some sort of social anxiety disorder. My Dearly Beloved is wonderful by himself or with a small (very small) group of friends. In large crowds he does some of the same things - cling to me, refuse to stop rubbing my arms, etc. He doesn't realize he's doing it, but he gets extremely anxious around large groups of people. It made me angry until I talked to him about it and figured it out. Now I don't invite him to places where they'll be a crowd and so far it's worked out fine.

Three years in, and she still hasn't set the ground rules? If she is climbing the company ladder, and trying to hoist him along by allowing him to dangle by her breasts, he will surely make her sag.

One thing that immediately came to mind when i read this letter is that the b/f has been raised in an abusive household where there were boundary issues ...like, no boundaries. And, yes, this is a certain and definite type of abuse when children are exposed over time to sexualized behaviour in the home by parents, family members, or neighbours or friends who frequent the house to the point where the child(ren) believe the sexualized behaviour is the norm.

But LW is to blame in her relationship with the b/f, for, as Amy has very clearly told her, his behaviour should have been addressed and corrected in the first couple of weeks or months of the relationship. Silent acquiescence is acceptance. Why has she put up with this for 3 years?? When you have the revolving door trouble that has finally caused the LW to write to Amy Alkon (or whatever advice columnist) after this long, you can bet that the scenario such as what "ie" described with the Wonder Woman lady, will happen with LW too. In other words, if it's a thorn in her side NOW, it will be magnified a thousand-fold in another year or 2. Grow a backbone LW, it's not too late to set ground rules, do not waver, do not give him more chances, and if your trogladyte does not cease his caveman behaviour and get into the 21st century, give him the heave-ho.

And in a short time of dating civilized men who do have their priorities and boundaries straight, as long as you have met your match, LW, then you will wonder why you spent 3 yrs with the cave man.

Some women actually like to be fondled in public. (Ever been to a biker bar, even here in the U.S.) In fact they would be offended if a man does not occasionally grab them, yes in a savage animal fashion - even *gasp* in public.

They would also consider a man a pansy if he is not willing to get into fights over them/ show that he is a real man by acting like a neanderthal every now and then.

You can easily find many reasonable people who disagree on what constitutes good and bad manners. Due to cultural upbringing, societal pressure or other reasons. For instance, living with a person before being married would have been unacceptable to many of our grandparents, and yet here we are. Same goes for wearing shorts to work. 50 years ago, bathing suits damn near covered the ankles (in the U.S).

Also, when I say public affection, I mean the grabbing of the ass etc. not the holding of the hands or hugging.

I find it rather amusing that I am suddenly PC avenger when I am the one saying what the man is doing is perfectly fine. Even expected in certain cultures. I do not think he has a mental disorder simply because he differs from the norm. The norm in this case is very puritan and colloquial.

And so what if it's in an ice cream parlor. The kids have to learn sometime. Point is, if it bothers the woman, she should tell him. Silently suffering while prying his hands off does not count. He may find it endearing.

It's not hard to figure out what to do if you ask yourself, "How will other people feel if I do that?"
---

That's a good point and easily implemented if one is psychic. However, there will be people who are offended if you do not burp after a tasty meal (Japan). There will be people who are offended if you wear a sleeveless shirt (mostly 80 year old+). There will be people who are offended if you do not cover your hair with a hijab (Saudi Arabia). That does not mean I am going to bundle my wife into a burka in case I offend their sensibilities.

By the same token no one can expect me not to at as I please with my wife (so long as she's ok with it) because they are "offended".

"Offended" is too fluid a term and can be spuriously applied to anything one finds distasteful.

I personally for example am offended by very little. I grew up in a Soviet assigned 2 bedroom apartment into which the government stuffed 3 families all with kids. As such sex 6 meters away from me under blankets was fairly common place and does not bother me at all (noise and all). The same can be said for college room mates in the U.S. So I can not use my moral compass to determine what will and will not offend others.

I assure you that seeing a nipple will not traumatize children. Same can be said for seeing a breast being grabbed.

The reason I love America as a country is precisely because people are free to act as they please and social mechanisms exist to limit them from screwing pigs in the street but still allow them to kiss their partner in public without being arrested, even if they are gay (unlike say Singapore).

More to the point. I believe America and civilized society in general has this basic moral compass: "Is what I am doing hurting you or anyone around me? If no, it's none of your business." I am not convinced grabbing your woman in public hurts anyone. This notion is supported by many cultures where it is normal to do so.

Honestly, the same can be said for chewing your toe nails in public. It hurts no one. It's disgusting and will probably leave you with very few friends, but unless your toe nail clippings are landing in my food/ personal space I am not going to stop you.

Thank you for responding. I've been reading the site for a while and often enjoy the discussions it sparks.

There is a distinct difference between something obviously unhygienic - such as relieving oneself in public and feeling up your wife. The former is illegal and harmful because it is unsanitary/ causes disease. The later is a matter of opinion. It's obviously a matter of opinion because I do not believe it harmful.

I am not pretending people aren't offended by such public displays as 2 gay men kissing. A lot of people are. My question is why should we care. If I were gay, I would kiss my partner at a KKK rally in the deep south and not care. Call that narcissistic if you want, but I call it freedom of expression. And I would be more than willing to fight for that right.

So, yes, peeing on my table leg is not acceptable for the reasons I stated above. If someone were to do that I would very quickly teach them why manners exist by breaking their legs. But grabbing your girlfriend's breast... Does not concern me. And frankly should not concern anyone.

Two gay men kissing...two Frenchmen kissing. The dividing line is whether they're displaying affection or foreplay.

---

How do you know which is which and does it matter? Were I a homophobe I would see 2 gay men holding hands as foreplay and be outraged. Should they care if I am outraged? No.

----
You're also free to speak out denigratingly about the people seated next to you, but it's also rude.
---

Rudeness cuts both way. The man in this episode has been called a pig, a psychopath, a mental case and a cave man. For doing what? Being different from people in the Bible Belt?

I can not argue against good manners. In fact, I fully support good manners. I open doors for people and I say please and thank you. But the danger lies in allowing good manners to dictate a lifestyle choice. If a person chooses to never offend anyone that person would be afraid to step out of the house in case he steps on an ant and offends a vegetarian or someone who loves ants.

This is where I respectfully disagree. I know plenty of women who not only do not find it humiliating, but enjoy it. It shows them their man is so attracted to them he is unable to keep his hands to himself. It's a huge ego boost.

There is many things I would not do in front of my grandmother. Like say that Stalin was a mass murderer or, more pertinently, live with my fiance for a year before getting married. But her notion of morality is outdated by today's standards and no longer applicable.

And we are not talking about live sex acts now are we? If we are they fall under the unhygienic category and should not be performed in public. But we are not. He grabbed his girlfriend's breasts at a concert? Big deal, I've seen women half naked on the shoulders of their boyfriends singing along in concerts.

Perhaps the world has changed, and it is not so bad anymore to french kiss your gay boyfriend in an ice cream parlor? I can think of many grandmothers who would faint if they saw something like that, but it does not mean it's wrong.

Like I and a few others in the thread have said. If she has a problem with it, she needs to tell him. It can not be assumed he knows this bothers her or is even considered rude. He actions upon being told this is a problem will indicate what kind of man he is, not before.

If that works for you great. In certain environments however, if man were to show his affection for his woman by softly kissing her on the cheek she would laugh in his face and call him a weakling. And to make it more fun, walk off with the closest thug that actually looks like a man to her.

Btw, do not be so sure that sitting next to Greg ?boyfriend I assume? and interacting as lovers do does not offend anyone. That kiss on the cheek can be taken as dreadfully inappropriate by Abdulah Al Ahmed sitting in the booth across from you. And that fond gesture could cause some fundamental Christian to cover their kid's eyes in shame.

I am not pretending I can't see the difference. I really can't see the difference in this particular case.

@ Reason... all your posts are the man's side - what the man wants. Not once did you mention what the LW wants. And she most certainly wants her b/f to STOP feeling her up in public. Get a brain and think of what other's want, please.

all your posts are the man's side ...Get a brain and think of what other's want, please.

---

Not true. We all already know what the LW wants. My posts were in defense of the man true. This was mostly because he was getting slammed by everyone without much counter balance. But I distinctly said that she should TELL him what she wants. Several times in fact.

The adage of women expecting a man to know exactly what they are thinking or what they want is too common to even bother introducing into the equation.

His actions by themselves do not validate calling him a pig or assuming he's possessive or psychotic. The girl simply needed to indicate to him that this behavior is not her style. In which case he is free to find someone who appreciates being groped in public or adjust his behavior if she is more important to him than his former beliefs.

People with primitive religious beliefs need to seclude themselves.
--

That line of thinking is rather eerie. Be careful someone does not find your religious beliefs to be primitive and decides to seclude you.

Do you really mean to say that anyone that does not agree with you is a "primitive" and should be in a concentration camp secluded from the rest of "civilized" society?

I am surprised by that. If you really believed that, I think you would have blocked my IP from commenting by now. I suppose I should thank you for not having done so...

Reason,

Where in the "deep south" are they having KKK rallies now or do you have a time machine?

If the LW had not mentioned an ice cream shop as the scene of her bf's groping, I would have thought that's where she works putting up with a bf like that for three years.

@Suki

http://www.news4jax.com/news/22620856/detail.html

KKK, NAACP Rally In South Georgia
POSTED: Saturday, February 20, 2010

--
Are you really naive enough to think they don't or were you joking?

I really don't think the five remaining "KKK" dorks in Georgia (or the fifty left in Indiana, for that matter) hang out with the NAACP, no matter how similar the Klan of old resembles the NAACP of today.

Neither naive nor joking, just tired of you people speaking about my "homeland" part of the country the way you do are the naive and ignorant ones.

@ Amy If your beliefs are based on fantasy or lack of rationality (for example, notion that there is a god... //(that does whatever) [edit]
---

By your logic, most atheists would jail every Christian etc. and ship them to an island far away somewhere.

Personally I am an agnostic if it matters. But surely you understand that segregating a religion because you believe it is grounded in fantasy can not possibly be the solution.

Look at the prosecution of Falun Gong and the like to see where that kind of thinking will lead.

As an aside, I think you should read this article about 2 Lesbians getting kicked out of Ihop for kissing. Because the article raises a problem that is not so different from what is happening here. That problem being the larger voice in the populace deciding how everyone is going to act and insisting the smaller voice stick to their rules.

Pertinent quote below and link:

A lesbian Couple shared a kiss at the International House of Pancakes and then was made to leave as a result.

Blair Funk and Eva Sandoval were eating at the IHOP restaurant in Grandview, Missouri when they kissed one another. Later on when walking through the lobby they were approached by the manager and told to leave. What he said was that they had complaints of public displays of affection and they won't accept it in their restaurant.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/186085/lesbian_couple_kicked_out_of_ihop.html?cat=17

@ Suki I really don't think the five remaining "KKK" dorks in Georgia (or the fifty left in Indiana, for that matter) hang out with the NAACP, no matter how similar the Klan of old resembles the NAACP of today.

Neither naive nor joking, just tired of you people speaking about my "homeland" part of the country the way you do are the naive and ignorant ones.
----

a) Five is too many.
b) Who is you people? Russians?

Closing your eyes to the unfortunate truth does in no way invalidate what I said or that the KKK exist and in large numbers.

[quote from a brief internet search]

There are a few states that have sub groups of KKK. The southern states such as Alabama and Mississippi have one small active group. However states like

Indiana has 3 groups of KKK. One group: American Knights have been the most active. There is another group located there that claims to the chapters in 20 different dates.

Louisiana has 4 sub groups of the KKK there.

Ohio has 2 Klan groups who are quite active especially in 2006.

Tennessee has 4 small KKK groups however they are small.

Texas has 3 groups there and two there are actually regional.

The state with the most active groups would be Arkansas with 5 KKK groups. One with group based there with chapters in 7 states, another with alliances in 4 other states
[/quote]

But this is all besides the point. Sorry to include it.

She did tell him... and yet, he persists. This is why i said in my first post (last night) that she has brought this upon herself, by extending the relationship into the 3rd year. If it really is a problem for her, she should drop his sorry ass and move on.

From the original letter, and maybe I am blind, I do not see anywhere that she's told him to stop. I see trying to pry his hands off. But nothing spoken.

Something normal like "Hey, sweetheart, would you mind not massaging my breasts at this work function.. or ever in public, ok?
"

That didn't happen. She is not a helpless canary fully at the mercy of this big scary man right?

If I wake my wife up at 3 am because I am in that kind of mood I know it's a dicy move. But I trust my wife to tell me, "Not now, I am not in the mood/ have a headache/ it's 3 a.m. you jackass."
if she is not similarly inclined.

However there are times when she wakes me up with similar inclinations so I know it's not always unwelcome. Worst case, I woke her up for nothing but no one gets hurt. If she lay there and quietly suffered my abuse without saying anything - what can I do? Read her mind? Point is she will tell me if something is wrong.

Again, grabbing your wife in public is not the same as beating her. (Obviously not acceptable) It's not the same as pissing on a coffee table even. It can not be assumed that he knows it bothers her without it being specifically mentioned.

It can not be assumed he knows it bothers her, especially since it is entirely possible his previous girl enjoyed being treated like a slab of meat. He may not be experienced enough to know the difference. But, since, they've been dating for 3 years maybe he's doing something right?

If you are you arguing that she does not need to tell him and he should just magically know better, I don't know what else to say. How hard is it to just let the man know there is a problem?

Amy, why are you continuing to feed the troll (Reason)?

Amy, why are you continuing to feed the troll (Reason)?
----

And, now I am a troll, of course. Because I have an opinion that differs from the pack. If you think about it, it really doesn't differ that much.

That was uncalled for, but not unexpected. If possible I should like to continue without ad hominem attacks shielded by the safety of anonymity.

In case someone forgets:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

--

If you show me where what I said was inflammatory, extraneous or more importantly off-topic. I will be happy to.. go under my bridge I suppose. After all, internet tough guys scare me.

I just don't get why this is such a difficult thing to figure out. Talk to him. Communication is key in a successful relationship. If you feel like you can't talk to him, then you shouldn't be with him. It makes me think back to sex-ed in high school of all things. If you can't ask the man you are about to sleep with if he is clean... then you shouldn't be sleeping with him. If he lies, well that's on him.
And as far as what Reason has been saying. I'm a woman and I like my brutish macho men, never would tolerate an abusive man of course, that's stupid. But if I wanted my man to stop groping me in public I would tell him I wasn't in the mood. Simple as that. And if he doesn't listen, I would be considering our relationship status. Because after he was told, it becomes abuse.

@ Reason (again) ...what your wife and you do at 3am is, i'm assuming, done in the privacy of your home, just you 2, alone, together. What the LW is talking about is being done *to her* by the b/f in front of crowds of people. This is why i used the words "get a brain" in my previous post directed at you. If you don't know the difference and continue to preach from your soap box about how men should be allowed to be as sexual as they wish in public, then, you deserve all that comes to you. Good luck with that, buddy. And good luck to your wife too.

P.S. "i can't trust him to act appropriately" and "makes inappropriate small talk" and "it was humiliating" and "kept prying his hands off my breasts"........ if the b/f doesn't know from her actions, i'm positive she has had words with him that are unarticulated in her letter, and yes, she didn't come right out and say it IN her letter, but you don't "pry someone's hands from your breasts" without saying a word, i'm sure.

Reason, you know you are splitting hairs here. Stop being a moron about this. Last time i checked, cave men went out of fashion about 1,000 yrs ago.

In which case he is free to find someone who appreciates being groped in public...

And exactly where would he find this woman?

No, wait, don't answer that...

I know plenty of women who not only do not find it humiliating, but enjoy it. It shows them their man is so attracted to them he is unable to keep his hands to himself. It's a huge ego boost.

There is a difference between a woman who wants her boyfriend to stop grabbing her breasts at the ice cream parlor and a woman who needs her man to grab her breasts at the ice cream parlor so she can feel good about herself. I, too have seen women enjoy getting felt up in public. They tend to be women, or couples, actually, who need other people to see them being super-affectionate for validation of their relationships. There are levels of what different people find acceptable, yes, but the level you describe is likely due to a need for external validation. Emotionally secure people don't need others to watch them being in a relationship.

Most concerts are dark, full of hemp and designed for breast fondling. I guess at the ice cream joint he just grabbed the wrong cones (or was it a TSA groping?). There's no mention of his preversion in a business context, so you're judging him on future crime, not on any actual deed in front of your boss or the janitor.

I've lost several girlfriends by being honest all the time and telling 'em what I'd like to say or do in front of someone, while never actually doing what I'd like to in a social, public or business situation. I was judged not on how I acted, but on their fear of how I might act, and their fear consumed them. Look in the mirror.

Wow...
--- @Amy
Your inability to grasp the difference between public and private behavior seems reflective of some social dysfunction....If you don't understand this, the zookeeper probably shouldn't let you out of your cage in the primate house unsupervised.---

My cage at the zoo must have been left open because I don't understand this supposed difference at all - Neither does most of Jamaica, Russia and Latin America. We are not discussing pissing on a table in a diner, but the simple act of a man folding his wife (not a stranger) in public. Which is fine in most of the non-puritan/muslim parts of the world. But wait, we are American! We must be right. Or are we?

[quote]
In Latin America, the practice of teenagers gathering in public parks to kiss, caress or even have oral sex has caught the attention of United States media, strikingly because of the lack of political content in this "sexual awakening".[2][3]
[/quote]

On the other hand india agrees with you.
[quote]
Attacks by vigilante groups also a danger for those indulging in PDAs in India.[9]
[/quote]

Hardly the right response either.

Now, I could conceivably insult you back, but my parents raised me too well for that. Which I find ironic. Sophomoric debate practices such as saying, "If you believe posit X this you must be a moron, get a brain, moron." Are not actually very effective.

Let me try to summarize your position as I learned from this discussion.

1) There exists a clearly defined rule of conduct that everyone in the world agrees with. (I would love to see this document)
2) If anyone does not follow these rules they are a savage/primitive/primate?
3) You are free to offend and insult these primitives as you please because they should segregate themselves from "civilized" society. (This my friends is the height of hypocrisy)
4) Arabs are primitive savages (Never-mind that they invented Mathematics, Chemistry and many more as well as being one of the oldest cultures in the world.)
5) Bikers, College Students and basically anyone with a different viewpoint are also savages. (Is it getting lonely in civilized land?)
6)I escaped from a zoo.

That last rule is particularly astute because it's true. The place I grew up in was a zoo. I lost a lot of good friends to that zoo due to senseless violence, starvation and alcohol poisoning. But I survived.

You see Ms. Alkon, if you are willing to offend Abdullah (with his conservative concept of sexuality), I am afraid you must be willing to be offended by Jean Luc Bullikov (with his progressive concept.) Because to Jean Luc, you ARE Abdullah. Anything less is hypocrisy.

It seems to me you are just offended by people having fun. I just hope you never walk through a park in Paris and forget to notice how beautiful it is because you are too busy being offended by lovers making out on the benches.

In closing, I would like to thank everyone for the warm hospitality and open minded debate you showed me here as a newcomer to the forum. I will leave most of you to pat each other on the back and agree with each other in peace. I do not believe you possess the grace and social wherewithal to offer an apology when it is due, so I won't hold my breath expecting one. But nevertheless, I am quite sure one is owed.

*fondling. (in common English.)

Just out of curiosity, how many languages do YOU speak?

Oh come now, you've turned this argument into crapping on a coffee table to make your point in this very thread. Park/Ice cream parlor/ street corner, who cares?

For a crusader in good manners, you are certainly quick to call a normal person a narcissist/mental case/troll/chimpanzee.

But if it makes you feel better, you win. I am out. I think you've proved my point for me. Thank you.

If people weren't afraid to offer corrections, I believe that hearing "Get a room, you two" a few times would get LW's "man" to wise up.

@reason - you are trying to defend the indefensible. You lost. Get over it.

@reason - you are trying to defend the indefensible. You lost. Get over it.

I don't think Reason giving an opposing side of the argument while the rest of the forum calls him a monkey is exactly losing an argument.

If empathy is the root of good manners, how do you think a person feels when you call them a monkey?

Anyway, I don't see it as narcissism. There are people who are narcissistic and there are people who don't care what other people think. It can be a thin line, but like Reason has been saying from post one. There are different cultures and he even mentioned being from one that is other than American.

I've known plenty of people from his part of the world. Back when I worked in retail (jewelry specifically), you wouldn't think that saying something like "Don't worry, you get this for your wife and you'll get great sex tonight." in front of a man and his wife would be appropriate. But Russians always found it amusing, I was familiar with their culture. I sold a lot of jewelry to Russian couples that way. Would the Indian couples that also came into the store appreciate it? Probably not.

Back to the original poster though. Do we know this man's motives or if he does in fact have a mental or social dysfunction? No. But writing off someone as "well there must be something wrong with him," simply because you do not know how it could be explained otherwise does not offer much help. But then shoot down those who oppose your theory is just being close-minded.

The earth being flat was known as fact at one time, and those who opposed this were burned at the stake. Only when the theory was accepted was when progress was made.

Well, the lady said he is a great guy. A great guy by definition cannot be a psychopath. I really don't see why this is such a big deal. He acts the way he finds appropriate. And there are many places in the world where the majority of the population also finds this appropriate and expected. If she sees this as a problem, then trying to take him to a psychiatrist will absolutely ruin their relationship. The only recourse she has is tell him she sees such behavior as inappropriate. If he is a normal balanced person he will not wish to embarrass her in public or at a work function especially. If he does not stop after being told than she should consider that maybe he is not such a great guy after all.
There have been posters that mentioned that biker norms are not social norms, but bikers are also people and they form a sub-society of their own. Their norms than are by definition social norms. just different from most Americans'.

It's not a "moral vacuum" it's a "set of morals" different from yours.

If you are going to get into a debate‬ it's better to argue your case on it's own merits. If you can't do that and have to resort to calling your opponent a troll or a psycho, then you've already lost the argument. No amount of books and studies will change that. As far as concern for people's feelings go, need I remind you that you said "People with primitive religious beliefs need to seclude themselves."

While I don't agree with what reason is saying, he does have the right to his opinion. AND while the bf should realize that what he's doing is unwanted and innapropriate she should also have the balls to tell him to knock it off, and if she doesnt then shame on her and stop complaining about the behavior!! Its like having a dog, if you don't tell them you dissaprove of what they are doing they assume you are ok with it.

As far as concern for people's feelings go, need I remind you that you said "People with primitive religious beliefs need to seclude themselves."

Because they have no right to demand that all of society conform to their very special snowflake needs, based in the fact that they believe, without evidence, in Zeus, Allah, etc., and Allah says that pork is evil. There are times to be concerned with people's feelings and there are times to ask them to join the modern age, or at least not follow Quranic commands to convert or kill the infidel and install the New Caliphate and Shar'ia law around the world.

Furthermore, morality is not some arbitrary set of standards -- humans have very clear evolved moral sentiments that span cultures and borders. Again, empathy is a good guideline.

If you are going to get into a debate‬ it's better to argue your case on it's own merits. If you can't do that and have to resort to calling your opponent a troll or a psycho, then you've already lost the argument.

When several people have already made a variety of explanations from a variety of viewpoints, and the response keeps boiling down to, "People can do whatever they want", the argument has ended, and all that is left is to point and laugh, because either the person IS a Troll (as in, a person who argues for the sake of argument, not from an actual belief that their side is particularly correct), or else they are so reflexively narcissistic that they may very well be bordering on psycho.

@ Reason (yet again) i've been to Russia, Jamaica, and Latin America, and never have i seen PDA's quite like you are describing. Never. I spent 10 days behind the Iron Curtain, 2 weeks in Jamaica, have travelled all over the Caribbean, have been to Latin America about 10 times, have travelled extensively around the world, into China, have been up & down & across & back both Canada & the USA too. I lived in UK for 2 years. I have never seen men openly fondling women as a commonly occurring theme. Are you sure you are not wishful thinking your fantasies into existence?

I've read the letter over several times, & i think this is a case of a mismatch if there ever was one. If she cannot find her voice when it comes to her preferences, then they shouldn't be together. For her to write to Amy & complain, well, that is a case of passive aggressive behaviour. The more i read the letter, the more i'm convinced they just don't belong together, & it's too bad this career-minded woman who otherwise seems intelligent does not have the guts to voice her true feelings to her b/f of 3 years. If we have all misinterpreted her letter & she HAS voiced her dislike of his PDAs then (as i've said in a previous post) she should drop is sorry ass and move on. She has to say what she means & mean what she says.

However, this does not mean that i support PDAs to the extent that the LWs b/f is foisting upon her... there is a time & a place for everything. This guy does seem to be a card short of a full deck.

Because they have no right to demand that all of society conform to their very special snowflake needs
--

Such as the snowflake need that you not see a woman groped in public even if she's perfectly happy to be groped?

Some of you really need to travel and get out of your bubble.

I am not a psychopath, or a narcissist. I simply do not believe that the bleating of many about being offended should deter a person from acting (with conviction) in accordance to his principles. If those principles hurt no one reasonable. What two consenting adults do is nobody's business but theirs.

This is why I said that 2 gay men should go ahead and make out in public. Regardless of who is offended. It is their right. Be offended and complain all you want, they need not care. You can even call them narcissist and self absorbed, they will probably tell you to go to hell. And they will be right.

This is why it is your right not to wear a burka. You do not care if it offends muslims, and you should not. If a muslim tells you to put on that damn burka, you will tell him to go to hell. And you will be right.

This is why it is the right of the husband to put his hands wherever he wants, so long as his wife is ok with it. If you come and tell him stop that it offends me. He will, and should, tell you to go to hell. And he will be right.

None of this has anything to do with taking a crap in the middle of the street. There is no culture where that's A-OK. There is plenty where groping in an ice cream parlor is an everyday occurrence and bothers no one.

Your arbitrary trappings of politeness are at best simply a mask for weakness and at worst pure hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy because you are one of the rudest people I've ever had the pleasure of speaking and you claim empathy and manners are important.

A mask for weakness because you are too scared open your eyes to the much bigger world out there, where all sorts of things happen every day that would shatter your puritan ideals.

Spain: marriage age is 13.
Russian: 14, well 16 now.
Most of Europe: 15.

What would you people do if you went to Russia and saw a man making out with his 16 year old wife? Demand he stop it? Tell him his whole society is a bunch of savages? I hope you are a very good fighter if that's the case.

As far as winning an argument, I really could not care less about that. I am presenting a viewpoint. If it bothers you fine, it's still valid for many people (like Bikers). The way forums work, or should work is: You present your viewpoint, someone else presents their and you both walk away enriched by the experience. i.e. There is no winner. Everyone wins.

The way forums work in your village is you present a viewpoint. Everyone tells you how wonderful you are. Someone presents a contrary viewpoint and you bark him down with as many insults as your mind can muster, toss studies his way, say you have evidence and basically scream "I am right, listen to me dammit!".

I have evidence too. 90% of Europe or the world outside the US does NOT live like you. Wake up.

You stand a fair chance to convince me I am wrong, if that is important to you. However, telling me I have a mental disorder, insulting the entire Arab world and ignoring other cultures is probably not the best way to do so.

@Bluejean Baby - as I was reading this entire debate, I thought the same thing as you: I stayed with a Russian friend in St. Petersburg for a month (in the same type of Soviet worker 2-bedroom apartment that Reason described, no less), and I never witnessed anything like that in all those days of sightseeing and wandering around the city. I don't think I ever spent an entire day indoors during that whole time. I even went to one of the White Nights along the Neva, which is a pretty casual and party-like atmosphere, and never saw anything like that. So I, too, am curious to know where Reason got this idea that it is a common occurrence in other countries.

@Bluejean

You were a tourist I guess. I've never been to the UK. But I lived in Russia and saw PLENTY. What did you do in Jamaica that you saw no public groping there??? They dance by dry humping their partner on the beach... And they dance all day long in Montego Bay or Negril. Did you stay in your room the whole time?

But you don't need to even go to a foreign country to find people who think it's perfectly fine.

Here it is in the US of A.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_3gRebmi9U

@Jina Thank you for your interest. But it's entirely possible that you friend avoided such actions not to offend you. Knowing you would be offended, or took you only to tourist areas. That's what I would have done.

St. Petesburg (Leningrad) when I was there is also a very different type of town than Moscow. Russia is a very big place. I assume your friend did not show you Stenka na Stenku holidays either. But they are very much a part of Russian culture.

@Amy.

To be clear. Despite your having been extremely rude to me, I do appreciate your hosting of this public forum. Ditto for not blocking my IP. Lesser people would have done so long ago.

I guess I tried to show people another angle. But I've been saying the same thing as absolutely everyone, even you in your original response. She needs to tell him there is a problem, or it's not a problem.

If everybody is going to get all bent out of shape over it, I suppose there is no sense in wasting the bandwidth.

Good day.

@Reason - you posted while I was typing.

You said: "Such as the snowflake need that you not see a woman groped in public even if she's perfectly happy to be groped?"

First of all, it's not a snowflake need - most people in the US would find it uncomfortable, embarrassing, or even disgusting to see a guy pawing his girl around in a family setting. It doesn't matter what people in other countries think or do, because we are talking about the US here. When in Rome, etc.

Second of all, the LW is clearly NOT HAPPY to be groped in public. Short of potentially embarrassing and angering someone the LW clearly cares about by rejecting him in public by saying "STOP TOUCHING MY BOOBS" and drawing even more attention to them, there's not much more of a clear signal she can send to him except to pry off his hands, which she did.

You said: "This is why I said that 2 gay men should go ahead and make out in public. Regardless of who is offended. It is their right. Be offended and complain all you want, they need not care."

Certainly they have the right to do so. And we all have the right to say "Stop it, that's not appropriate behavior in public." They, in turn, have the right to disregard everyone else and continue to be inconsiderate and rude, unless they break the decency laws. That doesn't make it right or okay. It just means that everyone will think they're jackasses, which we have the right to do. If they don't care about that, good for them.

You said: "A mask for weakness because you are too scared open your eyes to the much bigger world out there, where all sorts of things happen every day that would shatter your puritan ideals.

Spain: marriage age is 13.
Russian: 14, well 16 now.
Most of Europe: 15."

Age of consent is different from ages people actually get married. When I lived in Colorado, the age of consent for common law marriage was 16 for boys, 14 for girls (I think). There was a bill one year to lower the ages to 14 and 11, respectively, which got shot down. But that doesn't mean everyone there got married at that age, so your stats mean squat.

I know Wikipedia isn't the most accurate source, but here's a page on average ages of first marriages in different countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage

Also, you realize your statements are hypocritical too, right? You say that people can say/do what they want and who cares if other people are offended, but you get upset and complain that Amy and other people are being rude because they don't agree with your views or think less than highly of you. But by your own argument, why should they care if you think they're rude? It's their right, isn't it?

One last thing - according to you, groping women in public and other PDAs are common in Russia. So it doesn't matter if my friend only took me to tourist-y sites, if it were genuinely that common I should have seen it somewhere along the way, especially since we walked or took public transit everywhere (my friend didn't have a car). If I didn't, then again that defeats your argument that it's perfectly okay in Russia, because clearly it's not if people aren't doing it in broad daylight in the parks (many of which I walked through routinely). If I had to go somewhere special to see it, like a rave party, then PDA is obviously not as wild and free in Russia as you claim.

Honestly, it sounds no different from the US, when I put it that way.

@Jina
but you get upset and complain that Amy and other people are being rude because they don't agree with your views or think less than highly of you.

--
I am not upset actually. I am simply pointing out the ridiculous nature of saying. "You are a rude mother f-cker you slime covered pig vomit rapist." (which is equally rude if not more so).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

This is from the same source I suppose. I find it comforting that it's not widely practiced.

But really people should stop addressing me directly. I am obviously boring and a waste of bandwidth and I feel it impolite not to respond to a direct inquiry.

Regards,

One last thing I forgot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0FkX1FNE6Y&feature=related

Follow the links if you like, but please don't tell me it bothers people in other countries. They are just calmly walking by.

re: Biker PDAs... i really had no idea until about 5 yrs ago, at which time i had been chatting online for several months with a guy who divulged the whole "biker mentality" to me, and quite honestly, i was amazed. They pass around their women like steak on a plate. His group use tokens or coins for bartering or some such thing, and the biker has to present the woman with enough coins to suit her liking (ie: buy her affections) and he can then fuck her in public, if that's what's on the menu.

He asked me to join him in his lifestyle. While he seemed like the nicest, kindest, most amazing guy to me, i was shocked at his lifestyle choices.

Go ahead, call me a prude, but once i found this out, i politely said my goodbyes to this guy and haven't spoken to him since. If that's the lifestyle he's into, well, it doesn't matter what he thinks of me, he would be sorely disappointed to find out that i'm not into exchanging sex for money, nor am i into being passed around a gang of bikers like steak on a plate, no matter how rare and tasty i might think i am. LOL

The thing is, i listened to the type of lifestyle (briefly) he presented and walked away. It just is not me. I am not against loving PDAs such as kissing, hugging, hand holding, etc in public, but as i said, there is a time and a place for everything (listen to the song by the Byrds "Turn Turn Turn"). I think that whole groping, fondling, extremist type of PDA is the sign of someone who was brought up in a home without boundaries.

Life is a series of constant choices we make. This LW has to shit or get off the pot; don't waste any more time with a b/f who sounds like he is into a completely different lifestyle than she is.

I'm not sure that public sex in exchange for biker wampum is what most people mean by PDA.

I usually don't take time to comment, this debate motivated me...

I agreed with Amy's response, but as she continue talking answering to Reason, things change...

"Reason" I agree with you on this one and applaud you for your bravery to defend your opinion and right to differ from other's.
Reason:" Let me try to summarize your position as I learned from this discussion.
There exists a clearly defined rule of conduct that everyone in the world agrees with. (I would love to see this document)
2) If anyone does not follow these rules they are a savage/primitive/primate?
3) You are free to offend and insult these primitives as you please because they should segregate themselves from "civilized" society. (This my friends is the height of hypocrisy)"
Bravo!

Amy, you're demonstrating to have some issues with accepting and respecting contradicting opinions you don't like. And it's rude the way you express about religion. Reading your blog is a fun read, but you can really be bitchy sometimes... Your opinion has the same value as anyone's, as you're not a psychologist or hold any type of professional degree to conclude you're closer to being right and not "Reason". Personal opinions are that, personal and biased.

Hope you don't hate me, but as you, I'm brutally honest.
;)

I, also, see rude people. In this case, her name is Amy.

If you go back up to Reason's original argument (careful, you might wear out the wheel on your mouse), you'll see that the two of you aren't very far away from agreement.

If you'll allow me to put words into people's mouths, here are my personal impressions of the boiled down arguments of both parties.

Reason's argument:

-- the guy is a jackass, but perhaps he doesn't see the problem and should be spoken to about it. Also, there may be cultural reasons for his ignorance.

Amy's argument:

-- The guy is a jackass and should inherently know that such behavior is wholly inappropriate and disrespectful. Also, Reason is very much like a zoo animal, a monkey in particular.

Problems I see with each argument:

Problems with Reason's argument:

-- We are presumably talking about two Americans here. Their culture is our culture. Therefore, what the jackass is doing is really, really inappropriate.

Problems with Amy's argument:

-- Reason does not seem to be a monkey. In fact, I enjoyed reading his posts and I hope to read his viewpoints again. That is, if you haven't bullied him away from the forum for good.

Universal point of agreement:

-- The guy is a jackass. C'mon now, bring it in! Let's all hug and agree that this letter writer's boyfriend is a complete douchebag.

But Amy! Kittens are people too ;)

I mean really who'd've thought that so many strangers were so damn emotionally invested in some random guys god given right to sexually assult his unwilling girlfreind at her bosses dinner parties.

Why not do something constructive, like masterbate?

@ jonQpublic - I'd be willing to leave the whole argument behind us, but if i give Reason a hug, i'd be afraid he'd make a grab for my breasts.

"Oh, how tedious ..."

Sheesh, relax. You're so defensive that you have misunderstood the spirit of my post.

@Bluejean Baby -- Hahahaha :)

The bottom line is this: if I had a boyfriend like the LWs, I'd dump him or divorce him or get my male relatives to do something, possibly violent, that would convince him to change his ways. Even if he went into counselling, I'm not sure I'd hang on. There are some problems that are just too problematic.

All of you guys in favour of Reason's reasoning, go out and try this on a woman, maybe your gf if you have one. See how much she appreciates it and get back to us and let us know how it goes, will you?

You can argue standards, cultures, regional preferences 'til you are blue in the face, but the bottom line is that the vast majority of women (unless they are emotionally disturbed, like the women Bluejeanbaby described) don't like this shit.

I spent three years travelling around the world (in my 20s) I didn't see anyone behaving the way the LW's bf is behaving. Why? Let me repeat: women don't like this shit and it doesn't matter where they live, where they come from, who they hook up with, whatever. Point finale. That's why we hardly ever see it.

I think Amy is fair and this is a forum where ideas can be argued out. Coming on this thread and calling her bitchy is unfair. If you don't like what she's saying then go to another blog. No one's got a gun to your head here.

Reason, I can't think of one woman who would touch you with a ten foot pole. Ewwww and Yuck...are the words that come to mind.

"I spent three years travelling around the world (in my 20s) I didn't see anyone behaving the way the LW's bf is behaving."

I've seen it only once -- and it was weird.

My wife, at the time, and I were sitting across a cafe table from a Belgian couple having a pleasant conversation with them when the husband's hand roved over and began massaging his wife's breast. Well, we were in Belgium but the couple may have been German -- I don't remember. Also, it was an outdoor cafe at a playground -- nearly all playgrounds in Belgium have a cafe there where the parents can enjoy a beer while the kids play (how awesome is that?). So, there were many children around. It was a far cry from the dark corner of a nightclub.

The context of the conversation was something like the wife looking to the husband and saying something along the lines of, "remember how we enjoyed our first house?" -- you know, that kind of thing.

She responded to the breast fondling my putting her arm around her husband and smiling. She continued her conversation with us without pause while the breast fondling continued. He was really going to town. It would have been really uncomfortable if she was embarrassed by it. But, she wasn't and it was therefore only mildly uncomfortable. Plus, she had a great rack :)

Please understand that I am in no way advocating this sort of behavior. I echo your "ewww and yuck" sentiment and would never objectify a woman like that. It was uncomfortable to watch. I'm just saying that Reason's argument is not from some other planet.

Also of note was that nobody at the many crowded tables around us even batted an eye.

Wow, this thread reads like sockpuppet central! Reason, how many aliases did you use here? I'd love to get a look at the IP log:P
Let's just say, for arguments sake, that fondling in public is acceptable, if and when both people agree to said fondling, and the rest of the world be damned. What is that, you ask? Can you say Anarchy? I knew you could!
Manners, like all rules, keep a polite society, well...polite. If you choose to not say please and thank you, you may still get thing things you ask for, but then again, maybe people will get fed up with your lack of manners and tell you to go blow.
Saying that it's perfectly fine for someone to act out in a sexual manner in a public space, in broad daylight, in front of the entire community, is the same as saying manners don't matter, society has no need of rules, and the barbarians that have breached the gate should be allowed to pillage, rape and burn because it's their view that it's appropriate behavior.
Sorry, I am underwhelmed by your puppetry, and wholeheartedly disagree that this sort of behavior is acceptable in the majority of the civilized world.

@ jonQpublic - It really was said with tongue firmly planted in cheek. ...my apologies for omitting the "/end sarcasm" at the finish of my last post. Who is defensive?

People generally don't "bat an eye" because they are stunned into silence by what is passing before them as "routine", when it clearly is not.

Did it ever occur to you that the Belgian wife could be a victim of abuse, and that she is subjected to her husband's publicly roving hands as a form of control and dominance over her, and she has been coerced to "obey"? Just because you witness her acquiescence does not mean all is copacetic. Just sayin'. It's like a form of defiance, the husband wielding all that power over the wife right there in front of you. I bet he really got his rocks off by her submission and by your astounded reaction. Weird things can and do happen.

I know it's difficult, but try to think outside of the box, please.

Bluejean Baby, you make an excellent point. I know it's only annecdotal, but I have personally witnessed an abusive boyfriend literally throw his girlfriend against a wall and "command" her to orgasm in a crowded theater lobby. Was I shocked? Hell yes! Did I react to it? Only later, after the shock wore off. If I were a cool, calm and collected individual I may have told the guy to back off, but sadly, I am a human that is all too susceptible to the flight side of 'fight or flight'.

Btw, Amy, speaking as one red-head to another, the world is bass-ackwards to the n-th degree, but coming into this thread cold after not having read it as it happened, it just screamed "sockpuppet theater".

@ Kat - i find it very intriguing that you used the "thrown against a wall" example in your post, as i have been thrown against a wall myself, by my abusive 1st husband, who, of course, is now "the ex". He thought nothing of assaulting me, then, minutes later, walking out into public and treating me like a pampered jewel. People, it's not always WYSIWYG, and for sure, the world can be bass-ackwards to the n-th degree sometimes. You just have to keep your eyes wide open.

What cued me into the possible abuse with the Belgian couple jonQpublic spoke of is "he was really going to town" and "she continued without pause" ...these 2 things are just so disjointed, even though they are directly connected.

Acting like nothing is happening when someone is performing (in public) what is a private act on sexual parts of your body just screams "abuse victim", loud and clear.

I was that kind of victim - when he walked with me out into the public eye just minutes after assaulting me, i would smile with my arm linked in his, act like nothing had happened, and try my damnedest to behave like all was sweetness and light. But deep inside my heart, i knew that one day, if i stayed, i would lose my teeth to his fist, and perhaps much worse. He assaulted me 4x total before i smartened up and left, and in therapy, tried to convince the counsellor that i had imagined it all. Yep, weird things can and do happen.

When you see boundaries being crossed in public, it is really difficult to speak up. Kudos to those who do speak up in defense of the victim.

When you see boundaries being crossed in public, it is really difficult to speak up. Kudos to those who do speak up in defense of the victim.
I do wish I had been able to speak up, but when you weigh a buck-five and the guy is a 200+ self-styled martial arts "Master", the intimidation factor was too overwhelming. If I had been a similar sized guy, I would have, I have no doubt. I have seen my brother (6'6" and 220lbs) walk up to people in a store and tell them to cut shit out. He isn't afraid to do what's right, and so I'm really glad to have him on my side. Especially when I was getting free of my own abuser....
I have one place I will speak up tho, and that is if I see a child being mistreated. I haaaaate abusive parents with a passion that defies description, and have on occasion stood between parents and kids while waiting for the cops to arrive after I've seen a particularly nasty bit of abuse.

@Bluejean Baby -- I know you were joking. That's why I laughed. I guess I should have said LOL instead of hahaha, but I thought that it meant the same thing. It was a good joke.

I didn't get the impression that this was an abusive relationship or that this woman was a victim in any way. It's possible, but I don't think you or anyone else would have gotten that impression either.

@Kat -- if you're thinking that I am this Reason fellow posting under a different name, you're wrong.

@Kat -- if you're thinking that I am this Reason fellow posting under a different name, you're wrong.

I actually did, and still do. Methinks thou dost protest too much, if you felt the need to deny it. i fully expect Olganna or whatever her name was to pop in next.

"I actually did, and still do ... "

Well, then you are still wrong.

"...and wholeheartedly disagree that this sort of behavior is acceptable in the majority of the civilized world."

Disagree with whom? I certainly didn't say that this sort of behavior is acceptable. I don't think "weird", "uncomfortable", and "objectifying" would read the same way as "acceptable" to any reasonable person.

I like the British saying of "voting with your feet." When something too weird starts unfolding around me (hasn't happened often, thank god), I get up and leave.

I was at a party once that, unknown to me, was actually a swinger's party. Now, I have nothing against a group of people deciding that they want to have group sex together. They're all consenting adults, and that's they're right.

But when the clothes started coming off and no one seemed to think anything of it, I knew I was in the wrong place. It wasn't for me and I got up, thanked the host and quietly walked out to my car. I wasn't mean or rude, I just told the host,
"you know, this isn't really my scene, but thanks anyway."

The friend who invited me (a woman) followed me out, berating me for being uptight, a prude, making her look bad, etc. Needless to say, that was the end of our friendship...she should have warned me about what the party was really about.

And one thing that has struck me throughout this thread is this: even swingers have rules about this sort of thing. An investigative journalist friend of mine dabbled in this to do research (and YES, it really was for research, she's moved on to climate control now) and as her confidante, she explained a lot of the rules that govern the swinging lifestyle. It was fascinating, and for sure, there's a premium on privacy in that world, even though people exchange partners at random.

I agree with Bluejeanbaby on this one. The woman in Jon's story was probably being controlled and abused. Either that or she's an incurable exhibitionist who gets off on making a crowd of people uncomfortable.

Perhaps it was the woman who was abusing he man in that couple.

Why does everyone always assume only a man is abusive?

I can't understand why this woman has tolerated for three years that this jackass treat her like a cheap whore he's about to do in the middle of the street. How would he like it anyone treated his MOTHER like that?

First of all, Amy can see IPs. The people who agree with me are not aliases they are just other people. I do not wish to belabor the original argument as I think everything to be said for it has been said.

However, a lot of assumptions have been made about me that have nothing to do with the argument and those I think I will give a shot at clearing up.

A) I agree with groping women in public at a work function. -- I do not in fact agree with that. What I agree with is the right for people to be themselves.
- I also said gay people have the right to kiss in the street, that does not make me gay. It just means I think they have that right.
- I also said muslims have a right to their beliefs and can wear whatever they want, that does not make me muslim.

B) My opinion means less than someone else because I haven't read some modern books on psychology. -- Forums are not about people's credentials they are about the free exchange of ideas. Bill Gates has no college degree, neither does Michael Dell, Ralph Lauren, Henry ford.. Andrew Jackson (6th president of the US). Does that mean something? Do you really think those people can not debate a subject? How do you know which books I've read or not. I am going to assume you have not read, for example Alexandrov's new History, of Philosophy, but I will not hold it against you.

c) I abuse women. -- I love and respect most women. In return, they respect me enough to tell me if something I am doing bothers them.

d) I am looking for attention if I kiss my wife in public -- I kiss my wife in public because I find her sexy and feel like kissing her. I do not care what those around me think about that. Especially Ahmed.

---

Btw, since I am such a boring person, I should apologize for wasting so much bandwidth. If you let me know how many bytes my text consumed I will be happy to donate a few cents via palpal.

I know I'm late to this party, but LW, dump this jerk now! I would never grope a girlfriend in a public place like that. Some things are better left to the bedroom or for when she invites you in for coffee and whatever else comes to mind.

(Incidentally, Amy, I think you could reply to most of these LW's with "Run like the wind and don't look back!")

@ Reason Nov 22 @ 12:50 p.m. Amen to that, laughed out loud at your "especially Ahmed" line. Ok, now it's time to shake hands & make up... everybody. This has got to be a record-breaker of a thread, all over a woman who seems incapable of kicking the jerk with no boundaries to the curb. Oops, i did it again. Shut up, BB. Goodnight Gracie.

"And this -- "that fond gesture could cause some fundamental Christian to cover their kid's eyes in shame" -- is just bullshit."

Maybe not. I went with a college band to Bob Jones University, and our 1st Trumpet got an idea when classes let out - and he saw the full-length dresses on the cheerleaders. He pulled his girlfriend Barbara over and kissed her.

And all of the Bob Jones students held up their hands or notebooks to block their sight of it.

I was amazed.

And Amy - how did you know about my yogurt?

Well, I will likely be another assumed alias of Reason's...

But I had to write, if only to say that I'm in total agreement with a lot of what he is trying to say. It's alarming- and disappointing- to see how quickly this conversation devolved into insults.
Wow Amy, you took a jab at his imperfect English? Pretty low, considering he's been all too clear about the fact that he grew up in Russia... and quite frankly his grasp of English is a lot better than a large percentage of the (native) American population.
I may not agree with everything he has said, but I DO defend his right to say it... and I also think that Americans in general live in an isolated bubble and have no idea what happens outside of it. And then there are the thousands, or millions, of little bubble subsets within the larger bubble, such as those who think that anyone who disagrees with them has an inferior opinion, with a lower value... or that dissenters are somehow less evolved.

So, Reason... I'm glad you returned, and though for the most part you've earned a virtual lynch mob for trying to present a different point of view, there are those like me who enjoyed reading your words, and respected that you never resorted to low blows or insults to express yourself. I never post here, but I was compelled after slogging through all this.
Thanks. :)

I think it's sweet that bemused defends Reason's right to say what he wants, but not our right to say what we want in opposition. He didn't get a "lynch mob" because he [gasp!] dared to present a differing opinion. People present differing opinions all the time. The posters just called him out on his supposition that grabbing breasts in public is more acceptable than we can conceive of in our narrow, Americanized minds. And it's not insulting to comment on the content of posts, which is what most of us did here. Maybe you should read comments more often, bemused, because you'll see that seldom does everyone agree here.

Hm, NumberSix, I don't recall ever saying that no one else has the right to oppose Reason's viewpoint.
Of course I don't expect everyone to agree with each other... this would be a far shorter comment thread if that were the case.
My purpose in commenting at all was to point out the fact that it's not necessary to personally insult a person just because you don't agree with what they have to say. If you look through the comments, Reason was called a troll, PC Avenger, narcissistic, naive, ignorant, moron, brainless, ugly, piggy, small-minded, jerk, aaaand there were some allusions to him being a primate or a monkey- although he wasn't actually CALLED a monkey, as though that truly makes a whole lot of difference.

If you read through his posts, he doesn't stoop to insults or name-calling, and that is what I applauded him for. As I said in my initial post, I don't agree with everything he is saying, but I do appreciate the manner in which he said it, which demonstrated a fair amount more grace than anyone else here.

And it is personally a bit insulting to me for someone to admit that they didn't even bother reading his replies in full before posting their own comments. You thought he was American? Wow, really? So you weren't paying attention pretty much from the jump, because from his first post he mentions other cultures such as Jamaica and Russia, and by the third he directly says that he grew up in Russia. This was mentioned numerous times, although I won't waste the time listing them all here, since I am more than likely going to be skimmed as well. If you are going to take the time to argue a point with someone, there is some assumed give and take- the person presents a view point, you have an opportunity to respond, and so on.
This kind of reminds me of one of those boorish people who spend an entire conversation waiting for the other person to finish talking, so they can say the next thing they have worked out to say... all while completely ignoring what the other person has said in the interim. A debate, or a regular conversation for that matter, just doesn't work this way.

For the record, not that it matters, I am a female, and I don't want some guy feeling me up in public, but you can damned well bet that I wouldn't allow it for three years before working up the nerve to write in to an advice columnist to bitch about it. As Reason was TRYING to say pretty much this entire time, not everyone in the world has a perfectly calibrated, shared moral compass. What is horribly offensive to one person may be completely acceptable and non-remarkable to another.
The beauty of the human race is that we have evolved such that we can voice our feelings, and make sure that the person we choose to couple with shares a similar calibration. If this conversation isn't even held, you can't very well blame the guy for not knowing how much this behavior is getting on the LW's nerves. Men can be somewhat simple at times (no offense, really)... the first time he grabbed her inappropriately, she should have said something. Every subsequent time she allowed it to happen just reinforced his impression that it was an acceptable behavior, and he is likely thinking nothing more substantial than, "yay, boobies!" Does that make this guy less of an ass? Not really. But it could have been nipped in the bud a long time ago, easily. ;)

bemused, I agree with your last paragraph. In fact, it's what I said in my first post on this thread. I do think that is the core problem: she hasn't had a necessary conversation with her boyfriend.

I'm unclear, though, if any of your post (except for the first sentence) is directed at me.

And it was this: though for the most part you've earned a virtual lynch mob for trying to present a different point of view
that compelled me to comment on your post. I get sick of the martyr complex people get because they think they're being jumped on for daring to post a disagreeing thought. I feel this way about Reason's last post, too. He presented an argument, and was presented with disagreements to that argument. So take it like a big boy and don't whine that you're being singled out because you don't spout the supposed party line. It wasn't that he disagreed, it was the content of his disagreement. Like I said earlier, people disagree on here all the time, and everyone is subject to peer review on his own posts.

Also, I found the "assumptions" that others here supposedly made about Reason to be inaccurate. I saw nowhere where someone said that he abuses women; it was someone saying that public groping could be part of an abusive relationship as a control issue. And nowhere did anyone say that his opinion doesn't matter because he hasn't read some psychological journals. I'm not terribly knowledgeable about many subjects we discuss here, but I have always felt that my opinion was welcomed, even if others disagreed with it. And I never thought he agreed with someone groping his girlfriend at a work function. The disagreement here is that Reason put forth the argument that the groping is more acceptable than we think, and Amy and others dissected his statements (though, I will admit, with somewhat harsher language than I would have used, but vive le First Amendment).

No, I don't think that there is one giant, shared moral compass. But Amy points out that there are standards for behavior that are, well, standard. The degrees may vary, but every culture has some norms for how to comport yourself in public, and it's down to basic politeness: not inflicting yourself and your private behaviors on others without their permission.

Maybe LW's BF works for the TSA and thinks it's normal.