For some reason, this made me think of the split-screen shrink scene in Annie Hall, where both therapists are asking "How often?"

Says Alvy: "Hardly ever. Maybe three times a week."

Says Annie: "Constantly. I'd say three times a week."

Three times a week? Try once a month with little to no enthusiasm. And even then being accused of being a sex addict.

And I was the lucky one, a friend's family lived in a paper bag....

"...but if she might not always be in the mood for sex, it seems she's often in the mood to make you happy."

Beautifully put.

Foreplay with my first wife consisted of 30 minutes of begging. And it was limited to once a month. Which is why she became my ex-wife, since I was too young to be celibate.

I did much better the second time around. Even though my 2nd wife's sex drive is not quite as strong as mine, she has always been available for me. For which I am quite grateful.

And, she is not offended when I say "thank you."

In around 1982 in college, I began my first hugely sexual relationship and I was precariously close to being a virgin, save a couple of clumsy encounters previously. It was a "back rub" thing in my dorm room that led to more, then more, and even more and more and more over the next year and a half. She was so damn hot and I felt myself so lucky I set about to learn everything I could, just to keep her coming back because every blessed inch of everything she was just turned me on.

And it was non-exclusive, every step of the way. In the subsequent 15 years I had a number of long term sexual relationships with women that were always non-exclusive and more than not, it was they who sought me out, over a number of countries and continents. I figure they simply never had anything to fear from me. And it was always lovely and loving. It was always fun, never a duty, never a chore to check off.

I learned so much and count myself so lucky I never went down the road of jealous possessiveness that virtually every man I have ever known went down.

My wife tries to jump me every chance she gets, and we're both in our 50's. Around 2-3 am after waking mid sleep seems to be the favorite. First marriage for both of us, in our early 40s.

The problem as I see it is that both guys and gals simply don't want to put up with the hard and focussed work of competing for each others' attentions, anymore. They want to default to culture and religious bullshit and claims "rights and duty."

Fuck that.

Earn it, or just do it yourself, and that goes for male and female.

Anyone else want to bitch slap this guy?

I don't know about bitch-slapping him. I feel most of you, including Amy, are being a tad harsh on the guy.

He left me with the impression that he's not okay with asking his wife to put out for him when she'd rather do something else.

Yes, she's willing to make him happy...but speaking for myself, I don't feel good about asking someone to have sex with me if they're going to see it as a chore. And a disagreeable chore at that. She'd rather be doing laundry??? I mean, talk about a psychic cold shower.

This isn't to say Amy gave bad advice. On the contrary, she explained to him how her sex drive works and how he might help her get into it more often.

But in his place, I might be writing to Amy myself. Because I would rather my other half have sex with me for enjoyment, not as just another chore.

I agree with everything that Amy said in her answer, but I'm still not sure it addressed the real question: "Is there a way to get her more interested?" That's what the guy wants to know - I don't think he wrote in just to complain. Amy's answer seems to imply that there is no way - that it's just pretty normal for women not to be interested in sex.

This letter could have been written about me, except that I've been married 18 years and never gave my husband "snide comments" about wanting sex. I almost never turn him down - I once had sex with him a half hour after taking Nyquil. I don't remember anything about it other than thinking, "I can't believe I'm not saying no to this!" Now this is not to say that I don't enjoy sex, and I certainly would not rather be doing laundry (rather be sleeping - that's a different story!) But I used to be horny all the time and now I'm not. I wouldn't mind being more interested in sex, if that is possible.

I would agree with Patrick here, from long experience. She's giving him nothing but a hole, and he knows it, and I doubt she doesn't remind him, during and after. The mind-blowing sex is when she wants it, the rest of the time she's telling him otherwise. "I'm only in the mood when I want to be, because you want it too much" sums up many women's idea of sex in marriage.

This is Ecclesiastes territory. Nothing new under the sun.

I'm glad it worked out for him, but did she understand how lucky she is after 20 years? I'm on 19 and only here for the kids (really long story, and no women aren't more mature than men).

Because I would rather my other half have sex with me for enjoyment, not as just another chore.

That's the part I had a problem with, too. I can see where LW would be upset feeling like his wife is doing him a huge favor by having sex. I would question if his wife is acting in a way that makes it apparent she's only doing out of duty or if he's interpreting wrong. Considering the feedback from him, I'd say it was a mix with more of the latter.

I was worried about this column at first, since the gist seemed to be "Men and women are different," which doesn't do a lot to help the guy talk to his wife, but I'm happy that the last paragraph had actual practical things LW could do and say rather than just accepting the status quo. LW, your wife doesn't know what you don't tell her. And chances are she feels there's something off about the sex, too, if you're feeling upset about it. How is she to know what's bothering you? Take Amy's advice and talk to her, using the biological differences as a springboard, instead of assuming what she's thinking and making her guess what's wrong. And definitely start the conversation with "I appreciate you and realize I am very lucky." If she's not just sleeping with you out of a sense of wifely duty or as a way to keep you placated, she'll be open to discussing it.

Hmmmmm men and women are different in their approach, in the timing of desire, and in their sex drives. So you still have mind blowing sex a couple of times a month and she rarely turns you down.

One thing about it not assuming you know what she is thinking. It is time to sit down, not in the bedroom and not when either of you is stressed or tired. I am thinking you may have a 10 minute window about twice a week. Still it does not hurt to have a talk about it. PLEASE do not start off with what you think is lacking and what you want her to do. Starting a talk like this it really helps if you start out with what she might like.

BTW if you are getting your sexual ideas from porn movies, please realize 90% of porn is made for men and a lot of those movies have to do with male fantasy rather than female sexual satisfaction.

If you have been together for 20 years I am going to assume your wife is in her 40's. Women's hormones go way down in their 40's. Including testosterone even thought it is at a much lower level than yours is, women do have testosterone. It could be with a drop in hormones she has had a drop in desire but she loves you and wants to make you happy, so she may not be in the mood but she has sex with you.

If she has her hormones checked and she is still in the normal range, I guess you are going to have to suck it up and realize your wife loves you and will have sex with you and it will only be mind blowing a couple of times a month.

If you cannot be happy one you try to talk to your wife about it, then leave because she deserves someone who will love her for who she is and not what she is not doing between the sheets.

BTW, Patrick is right; men do what to feel desired. Moreover most men really do express their love physically. One frustrating thing I've seen much too often (and experienced) is the notion that a man satisfying woman's emotional needs is innately superior to a woman satisfying a man's needs for physical affection.

"the notion that a man satisfying woman's emotional needs is innately superior to a woman satisfying a man's needs for physical affection"

You just won the cupie doll with that well aimed shot.

To LW:

That's why French have mistresses.
Get one vetted by your wife and everything will be better.

Good advice but, as others have suggested, this guy does (did?) have a legitimate complaint that shouldn't be minimized.

Firstly, three times a week shouldn't be some astounding amount. In my mind, that ought to be normal. Hell, to me, the one advantage to a marriage is that you have a reliable piece of ass. :)

Secondly, he isn't insisting that she initiate all the time or even half the time, just some of the time. If you're always initiating, you feel as though your repulsive to her. Particularly if she is doing something to indicate that she'd rather be doing something else once you get started. That's not a good feeling and it hurts deeply.

We men understand that we have different and more frequent triggers than women. We don't have to be told that. We don't mind, too much, the prodding we sometimes have to do in order to get things started. Jeez, when I was married, I actually used the line, "C'mon, it's not like it's going to take up much of your valuable time." After which, she thought about it and said, "Yeah...okay."

The kicker is though, that once this crass ploy worked, she allowed herself to get into it. Nobody wants to feel as though they are simply performing a bodily function on some poor woman. We can take care of the bodily function ourselves in the shower.

The thing that turns us on most about sex is that you women are enjoying it. That's what gets us off the most. As I say, otherwise, we can practice good prostate health on our own.

I think more practical advice to the LW might be, in addition to the sound advice you gave about letting his devoted wife know his thoughts on the matter, to make sure he is making the effort to romance her a little bit. I'm not talking about the bullshit romance involving flowers and soapsud baths. I'm talking about taking an interest in her hobbies, surprising her with an outing that is designed around what she would like to do, take a weekend mini-vacation at a bed and breakfast, that kind of God awful stuff. Also, although I jokingly say "God awful stuff", don't do these things for her as though you were doing a chore. Just as sex is disappointing when she isn't into it, so will your efforts. Actually take an interest in stuff that she likes and really allow yourself to get interested in the quilting bee or whatever.

In other words, initiate intimacy with her on a non-sexual level and she may just respond in a sexual way all on her own.

"And it was always lovely and loving. It was always fun, never a duty, never a chore to check off."

That is key. I felt sex was a chore in my first marriage, but not now, in my second. What's different? He accepts "no" without sulking, and truly aims to connect with me during sex, rather than just making it all about orgasm, his or mine (which is hit or miss, usually).

Too often, men think that pleasuring a woman is only about whether or not she comes. Don't get me wrong, having the big O is great, but it's not generally what we find most pleasurable about sex.

For me, it's actually the kissing and caressing. And the fact my husband cares enough to shower and/or brush his teeth before sex makes both those things more pleasurable. Lots of times when I think I'm too tired or not in the mood, making out with him changes my mind. He smells so good and feels so good.

But I think long-term husbands tend to develop a view that making out is unnecessary (like showering and teeth brushing). After all, you "know" each other so well - you're so intimate - why bother? Just get right to it. But that's unsexy to most women. We start to feel like just a hole...so that is how we ultimately act.

In other words, initiate intimacy with her on a non-sexual level and she may just respond in a sexual way all on her own.

Ding ding ding! For the win, whistleDick! Good call!

Waiting until everyone is 'in the mood' is nonsense in long term relationships. Negotiate a schedule that both parties can agree to. Once the days & time are set both people show up with their 'A-Game', simple as that. Men or women that remain in sexless relationships are being used and have nothing to complain about.

Setting a schedule may be the worst thing to do. How much more like a chore to check off could you make it? "Oh, gee, I see in my appointment book, I'm having sex with Larry tonight". That kills all the romance and spontaneity. I suppose it works for some people who may be really strapped for time together, but, in general, if you don't want your wife to view sex as a chore certainly don't treat it like one.

Setting a schedule? Jesus frigging Christ! You're out of your mind, nuzltr2! That's the worst idea I've ever heard.

Cool, Flynne, I got the win! Wooo hoooo! So how come lately I feel like I couldn't get laid in a women's prison with a fistful of pardons? :)

Maybe I'm naive, but I think it's pretty easy to "train" your partner to meet your needs by using positive reinforcement. If you desire a great cook, then absolutely rave over that tuna casserole, even if it's not the best you've ever had. Your praise will inspire her to try even harder with the next meal. Want him to help around the house? Tell him what a great job he did vacuuming, even if you see a few little dust bunnies behind the couch. Or thank him for changing that diaper and tell him what a great dad he is, even if he used too much powder or taped it the wrong way.

And if you want your wife to be a seductress, then seduce her...compliment her...tell her how beautiful she looks and how much you want her...not just sex but HER. Tell her how great she is at it because most of us have insecurities and think we're awkward or inadequate in bed. We're afraid we don't measure up to the porn stars. So, praise goes a long way towards making her more comfortable and eager to have sex with you.

This may seem too simplistic, but it works with kids, and we are, after all, just big kids.

When I was pregnant, years ago, I read an article about how to get the dad to help more with the baby, and one thing they stressed was to make it pleasurable and not nitpick over little things he did wrong because, for most guys, it doesn't come naturally, so after the first few times you criticize his swaddling or diaper changing, he'll quit. I honestly think that's what happens a lot with sex too. For women, it doesn't come that naturally, so if we don't get positive reinforcement, the tendency is to quit.

Ah, the age-old (is that a pun?) problem of middle-aged marriage sex drive differences.

LW, sounds like you have reached a reasonable compromise here. Her sex drive hit the middle-aged wall women often experience, but she is willing to pitch in on the matter a few times a week, without grumbling or drama. Take that as a positive. Yeah, perhaps she is not always the lover she once was. But she is that lover relatively frequently, it appears, and she is otherwise a good mate I assume, so some compromises can be made in this matter, I would think. Particularly since 3 times a week for a middle-aged couple is likely above average, so any replacement mate you find will not likely exceed that pace. Moreover, replacement mates are usually a high-cost luxury item once divorce attorneys and the expense of wooing new parties are tallied.

Speaking more broadly, guys should not listen to gals much on this topic. I know that sounds nuts, because wouldn't women have the best insight on this topic? No, they don't.

When this topic comes up, women often revert to a consensus position that a middle-aged married man should scurry about, trying to convince the disinterested middle-aged woman to have sex by addressing that middle-aged married woman's subjective reasons she cannot have sex. Terrible advice.

Truth is, women kind of detest doting men who scurry about trying to please them. That is true if they are 18 or 58.

Moreover, most middle-aged married men I know who follow the "scurry about" advice typically get no more sex after following such advice. But those men *do* get even more frustrated as they address the wife's alleged reasons for lack of sex, only to find that no more sex results. Then they are not only unsexed, but the men also feel lied to.

Instead, take a simple approach: if a woman actually wants to have sex with you, she will. If she is giving you subjective reasons why she will not have sex with you, what she is telling you is SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU.

When a woman doesn't want to have sex with you, time spent trying to change a woman's mind on the topic is wasted. Again, this is true whether the woman is 18 or 48. And note: this is true even if she is married to you. (What, you think a bit of paper, a preacher and some metal about your finger changes things in this regard? Hah!)

The better course of action is to simply exhibit at all times traits that women generally prefer when seeking sex with men. Throw those out onto the market. If you wife has her act together, she will say, "Hey, wait, hubby, sex me up, not those other slags out there!" Problem solved.

If your wife essentially shrugs at you, indifferent to your appeal and listing subjective reasons why you don't turn her on, then yes, likely another must gal step up to solve the problem. In that case it may be time to pay the cost for a luxury item of a replacement mate, if you value sex highly enough to dump a mate over it.

But the point to remember is that a woman who presents a man lists of emotional concerns, scheduling issues, housework demands, etc. as reasons that sex is simply too much to expect, what that woman is really saying is she does not want to have sex with you. Your marital status is unimportant in that equation.

Because if a woman wants to have sex with you, she has sex with you. "Fixing" issues she presents as causing her sexlessness is typically a waste of time and self-defeating. Your wife will find your scurries unattractive, and you will end up even more resentful. Don't be that guy.

I wonder if once the "replacement mate" has been procured, the same cycle takes place and the man often ends up in essentially the same situation he left. "Life isn't the one damn thing after another, it's the same damn thing over and over."

"I wonder if once the "replacement mate" has been procured, the same cycle takes place and the man often ends up in essentially the same situation he left."

Yes, which is one reason contemporarly men should reconsider bothering with marriage at all.

My wife loves to dance. Me, not so much. I take her dancing regularly and, while she knows that I don't love dancing the way she does, she has no idea that I would rather be doing any of a dozen other things. Once we get to the club, I usually have a good time and I love to see her have a good time. (This is true, BTW. I'm not making up a story to make a point.)

Do you think it would lessen her enjoyment if I made snide comments about her liking dancing so much or let her know that I would rather be home watching TV?

I do this because I love her. There is no specific quid pro quo. I am one of those fortunate men whose wife wants to make love with the same frequency as I.

If I wanted to drive my 30 year old old car 2-3 times a week but it only reluctantly started every month or so would I keep tinkering with it and talking nice to it to try to fire up or dump it and get a new damn car? It's a tough call... but 50% of marriages shit out for a reason and no sex or desire being shown is certainly one of the top 3 reasons.

The only trouble is most all the new cars in my age range (mid to high 40's)already have major miles and heavy baggage (I'm not talking about extra junk in the trunk) so finding one that runs and isn't already heavily damaged is tough and of course it costs alot of money to upgrade at this point in life.

Whatever path you choose, it sure ain't easy.

LW: Try spanking your wife, roughing her up a bit, and then screw her anal once in a while. If she whimpers, all the better.

And, you are entitled, after 10 years or marriage, or maybe five, to seek some fun on the side. Your wife is a dud, and that is almost normal in America.

Jeez, fella, stop being a wimp. Amy Alkon says wimps are losers.

@Spartee: Funny that you think only contemporary man should reconsider marriage. Plenty of contemporary women are coming to the same conclusion.

Gee, BOTU, I had to read only the first two words of your post to know who wrote it. Predictability leads to boredom, and boredom is a turnoff.

My wife and I have been married 26 years. We make love once a week unless one of us is not feeling well. Two out of three times it’s ‘mind blowing’ for both of us. That’s not bad in my opinion. I’d like it more often and I’d be thrilled if my wife would initiate things, but I’m grateful for what I’ve got. I was married before, so I know how much worse it could be. As Willie Nelson sang, “One night of loving don’t make up for six nights of want, but I rather have one than none, ‘cause I’m flesh and bone.”

Amy, am i making an ad hominen remark when i tell you that your comment "not tonight honey, i have a ficus tree" made me bust a gut laughing?

Lizzie-

Maybe you are right. Although my advice may be spot on, I will revamp.

Here goes:

LW: Have you considered spicing up your two-decade-old and very dull marriage by bringing in some new love interests?

Is there a younger, good-looking couple in your area that might be open to swinging, or wife-swapping? Your wife might show some more interest if she knew a handsome guy with big dick was in the offing. I mean, how many times have you and your wife humped each other? It's not like something new is going to happen.

And for you, what a thrill it would be to score with some younger fresh meat, no?

Once the ice is broken, perhaps your wife will be open to other couples, or even cruises on swinging ships.

Is it possible your wife's dullness is due to lesbianism? Three-ways with a cute bi-girl are a thrill too, if your ball-and-chain--I mean wife--will consent.

Or, you could just keep humping each other. Oh, fun, and what is on TV tonight?

Really, I would let her know if she is not open to new ideas, it is time for this marriage to be ended. She is a drag.

You need something new; every man needs something new every once in w while.

I get it now that you've trotted out every porn cliche in the book, BOTU. You can't offer the LW some new or original ideas because you don't have any.

This hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll throw it out there...

If the wife is really freaked out about chores (to where she's thinking about them during sex), maybe she has too many of them and lessening some of that might make her feel more sexy.

To each their own, and everything, but I know that when I'm thinking, "OMG, I need to get two dozen things done before I get to sleep" sex tends to be the LAST thing on my mind. (While if I'm done early, the thought process might be more like, "Hey, I finished two hours before bed. I wonder what I could do to entertain myself until I go to sleep...")

It's not certain, or anything. But it might be worth considering, as putting in a half hour of cooking/cleaning/dealing with the kids might be a fair trade for a half hour of sex where the wife is *really* into it.

Okay, Lizzie, what advice do you have for hubby (after 20 years of humping a sometimes interested wife)?

Lizzie Add in:

Just remember, what sounds like porno to you sounds really useful and interesting to a guy.

And female "solutions" to the unmet needs of men always sound like, "Bored with oatmeal at every meal? Try putting it into new bowls. Or appreciating the subtle flavors by eating it more slowly. Be grateful you still have oatmeal after 20 years."

Men have different needs than women. We should be accepted and not demonized for that. Sometimes we get bored with oatmeal.

Keeping a marriage together sometimes requires a little letting go. Fidelity is not that important.

"Keeping a marriage together sometimes requires a little letting go. Fidelity is not that important."

Stability is important though, and I don't know many swingers (and I happen to know quite a few) and/or cheating spouses who have that. Chaos, drama, and jealousy make up those lives, and this is very stressful. Usually, those marriages fail anyway.

Mahkara offers a practical solution for those, like the LW, who really just want to spice up their sex lives a little. He's basically happy, and just wants to find out how to connect with his wife better. I mean, he says they still have mindblowing sex after over 20 years! That's a triumph.

Some people like oatmeal. Some people find comfort in the known...in having a partner witness the stages of their lives. Ultimately, sex ends up not being as important as that...or important at all, after a certain age. This couple has already spent two decades with each other, which is wonderful, and they just need real, practical advice on how to enhance their intimacy.

Mahkara,

This reminds me of the difference between a mistress, a pro and a wife.

A mistress asks "Are you done?"

A pro SAYS: "You are done."

A wife thinks: "Green...I think I'll paint the ceiling green..."

@BOTU:

"Just remember, what sounds like porno to you sounds really useful and interesting to a guy."

Interesting, no doubt. Useful? In your dreams, maybe.

"Keeping a marriage together sometimes requires a little letting go. Fidelity is not that important."

It is obviously extremely important to a great many people, as evidenced by the fact that both sexes are often devastated by infidelity. BOTU "solutions" don't necessarily work for all men either.

"Men have different needs than women. We should be accepted and not demonized for that. Sometimes we get bored with oatmeal."

I'm not demonizing either of them. These two people have differing sex drives. On the flip side, they also have going for them, in the LW's own words, a very good relationship that he appears to value. There is no magic solution to this discrepancy. What is available to them is compromise. Don't want to compromise? Don't be married. Even that is a compromise of another kind. Nobody can have exactly what they want exactly how they want it all the time. Only a child thinks so.

The NYT magazine recently aired out a piece by Doc Savage in which he suggested fidelity is not the end-all be-all.

If no one can have exactly what they want all the time, why do you expect your husband to behave exactly like you want all the time? Every hour for 20 years?

He can never go on a business trip--and find a local call girl? Bang that cute secretary at the X-mas party? Ever in 20 years? Is that not a childish dream also? The way marriage should be, a defined by a 12-year reader of romance novels?

Asking a guy to sleep with one woman the rest of his life is like asking a woman to wear the same dress for the rest of her life.

You don't need any new dresses (other than for functional reasons). You only buy fancy new clothes for reasons of immature vanity. You should be happy with your husband and his love for you,and not try to win acceptance or validation of others. It is a sign you have not matured.

You see how silly it all sounds? Even mature women need new dresses and shoes and hair-dos constantly. A woman says she "never" buys new clothes if she only buys 12 new dresses and shoes every year.

A guy would say he swamped with clothes, having bought 12 pairs of shoes and suits every year for years.

I cannot judge women as immature for seeking these vanity items, even though it seems girlish to me. If I want to stay married, I accept this nonsense from my wife.

And you have to accept that your husband, to feel male and fulfilled, needs some variety in his sex life--he need new dresses too, so to speak. Man, it just feels great to screw a new beautiful woman really hard and long. It is what makes life worth living.

That is the secret of a long happy marriage--make your husband happy.

That's wonderful for Doc Savage, but the LW is not Doc Savage. Again, fidelity is obviously very important to many men. You don't speak for all of them, you only like to imagine you do. There are many kinds of both good and bad marriages. You don't possess the blueprint...or secret...for either.

By the way, I haven't bought a new pair of shoes in many years, unless you count hiking boots. I hate shopping.

if a woman actually wants to have sex with you, she will. If she is giving you subjective reasons why she will not have sex with you, what she is telling you is SHE DOESN'T WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU.

@Spartee

I'd never thought about it from that angle before, and that's a really great way of putting it. Just think back to the beginning of any relationship -- would a pile of laundry that needs to be done have stopped you from having sex?

The tricky thing, though, is that that blissed-out lust doesn't last indefinitely.

Frankly, I'd say I'd be willing to have sex with my boyfriend any night of the week. I think about it at work and as I drive home. And then, I get home to realize that he left his oatmeal bowl on the bed (warm milk and all), left the pan covered with egg residue on the stove and left sticky eggshells all over the counter. I'd say this happens 2-3 times a week.

And, really, it's a turn-off. Because now my choice is to clean that crap up (and feel like his mom) or let it sit until he gets home and feel gross about it until then. In a way, it's endearing, and he always apologizes profusely. But, suddenly, I don't want to have sex anymore that night.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the things that don't matter early on start to matter more than they should. And, for many women, it's hard to get in the mood two years into a relationship if you feel taken for granted in other areas. Whether it's a partner doing something gross or gaining weight, these things do start to erode sexual desire.

...that said, if one partner is contributing to the housework, and the other just keeps thinking of more piddly chores that need to get done before they'll have sex...that ain't right.

Let's turn that suggestion on it's head.

If a man is too overwhelmed with stuff on his plate, so much so that a woman can't get him to change the oil on the car, maybe she should give him sex to motivate him.

Does that sound ethically the same?

(Of course, women probably already do this...)

lovelysoul,

I think you are very wise. Case in point. My SO has over the years has been...ungrateful and critical of my gifts to her. They cost too much, they are the wrong thing, it wasn't what she wanted, etc. Unless it is something she specifically asks for, she doesn't seem to appreciate it.

Amazingly, my desire to buy her a damn thing has pretty much vanished. Incentives matter.

If the sexes were reversed, I guarantee that someone would be suggesting that the LW let herself go. Is it possible that's a factor here? Even if thats not the major issue, working out and taking better care of his physical appearance might help rekindle the spark, or at least keep his wife on her toes and give her some incentive to put out more.

Also, I second Mankara's suggestion on pitching in with chores more. I'm pretty sure no one actually loves doing laundry, but it can be hard to relax or get in the mood when all you can think about is a long list of chores hanging over your head. Again this may not be the major issue but it could be a contributing factor, and if, say, hiring a cleaning service once a week is all it takes to get things back on track than its probably well worth it, and certainly cheaper than therapy or divorce.

Guys, as I warned, the topic of "Choreplay" has lumbered into the room. That theory holds that if men did more housework, women would be sexy and hot for them.

When was the last time a woman stared lustfully at a man movie star as he did a load of laundry? When was the last time a romance novel showed a husband on the front cover washing dishes?

Don't. Listen.

If sex is your goal, make yourself as attractive to as many women as you can, and give yourself options. A man with options is what makes a woman interested in you.

>>You poor darling. After 20-plus years of marriage, you only have sex three times a week. And only a couple times a month is it "mind-blowing." What's next on your list of complaints

This is a very good example of feminist agitprop infusing Goddess' writing and this forum.

The issue is just dismissed.
"Blame the guy first."

What Amy wrote sounds like an advice to someone with high metabolism to be grateful for one bowl of rice a day --- look, those Buddhist monks are doing fine with that much.

The guy is married. And the marriage is a deal when both parties give the vow of fidelity in exchange for the assurance that their sexual needs will be satisfied. THEIR needs, not some statistical averages. So, LW complains that he is not satisfied with his sex life.

His wife shall do one of two things: urge him to get a mistress or work on her own self to be sexually minded more --- like taking a low strength hormonal supplements and fantasizing about her husband. Anything else is a violation of the deal that is marriage.

I agree, Shannon. Appearance and/or poor hygiene is often a factor, but a lot of guys seem to think that this is not as important for them as for their wives. Yet, women are visual too. We may be somewhat more forgiving of a beer gut if the guy is a good provider and treats us well - we're not likely to leave just because of that - but, when it comes to intimacy, an out of shape body is just not sexually exciting.

So, I think guys need to evaluate themselves critically before automatically concluding that the problem is their wife's "low sex drive". That's, of course, what she will say when the truth is that she just doesn't like having sex with you. But admitting that would be too hurtful to the relationship, so a lot of women will tell their husbands, and even themselves, that it's their sex drive...or menopause.

I've known too many women who have left virtually sexless marriages only to have incredibly sensual relationships with their next partner. And this often occurs during middle age, so blaming it on low sex drive or menopause is usually just a convenient excuse.

Heck, a friend of mine is in her 50s and has had a hysterectomy and chemo due to cancer. Her husband left her in the course of her sickness. She recovered and has gone on to have a really hot, sexual relationship with a younger man. She told me that, at first, she didn't think she could even get wet down there, but, with him, it's like a river!

That's kind of crude, but, to me, it turned the whole "sex is over at menopause" theory on its head (thank goodness).

"When was the last time a woman stared lustfully at a man movie star as he did a load of laundry? When was the last time a romance novel showed a husband on the front cover washing dishes?"

It may surprise you, but we know that isn't real life, just as you know that your wife isn't going to have a threesome with the hot neighbor like in that porn video.

Fantasy is one thing. In reality, doing things that make it easier for us to have sex with you undistracted is huge.

For instance, my husband, like most guys, really likes it in the mornings, but I'm not a morning person, which he understands, so, after sex, he makes coffee, takes the dogs out, so I can stay in bed. He'll bring me a cup of coffee before he leaves for work.

Actually, he does something no other guy has ever done - he brings me a warm washcloth after sex, so I don't even have to get out of bed to wipe up! (Score extra points for that manuever, guys!)

This is why he gets sex almost every morning. It's not rocket science.

Question

Who chooses to be distracted?

Who chooses to make sex conditional?

You know what? When there is a mountain of debt, the guy is facing possible job cuts, the car is making noise, his friend is facing a nasty divorce and the Indians are losing again, he gets sort of distracted too. But he doesn't let it get in the way. Sometimes, he does his duty (and yes, sometimes it IS a duty!)

It seems to be a choice or an excuse, depending on if the woman wants to get work or peace out of her guy.

"What Amy wrote sounds like an advice to someone with high metabolism to be grateful for one bowl of rice a day --- look, those Buddhist monks are doing fine with that much."

Your solution is as silly as telling someone who's not hungry that they should eat six bowls of rice a day with enthusiasm and enjoy it.

Every marriage is different, but every marriage is a compromise. You are Mr. Blame the Woman, First, Last and Always, and as such are even more predictable than a BOTU butt reference.

And LS...Herself and I take turns with the hot washcloth thing. Been doing that for years. Hell, I usually make sure it's in place before we start so we can both stay in bed.

Sex is an easier stress release for men. It's much harder for a woman to reach orgasm. It takes some mental focus, whereas guys can just stick it in and mindlessly bang away, and the orgasm naturally comes (pardon the pun). A woman takes about 20 mins, on average, just to get aroused enough to orgasm, and that's only if she's relaxed.

"And LS...Herself and I take turns with the hot washcloth thing. Been doing that for years. Hell, I usually make sure it's in place before we start so we can both stay in bed."

Smart man.

Your solution is as silly as telling someone who's not hungry that they should eat six bowls of rice a day with enthusiasm and enjoy it.

Every marriage is different, but every marriage is a compromise. You are Mr. Blame the Woman, First, Last and Always, and as such are even more predictable than a BOTU butt reference.

As it happens, I agree with you. He wants it a bit more, she wants it a bit less.

The same women who are pitch perfect on the tone of a thank you are suddenly a bit defensive when the implication of a 'duty f***' is raised on a male psyche.

Now, Amy states that this seems not the case for this man so I believe it. But now we've gone from the LW specifically and sex and duty in principle.

And Spartee isn't, as far as I remember, knee jerk anti woman. (That would be me and I also don't remember everything) So the ad hominem seems a bit misplaced.

Attack me instead.

@flydye He wants it a bit more, she wants it a bit less.

If it was "a bit more" LW would not bother to write. The discrepancy between "he wants" and "she wants" should be quite high for a guy to write "Dear Amy,..."

"If it was "a bit more" LW would not bother to write. The discrepancy between "he wants" and "she wants" should be quite high for a guy to write "Dear Amy,..."

No necessarily. In my experience, guys with overwhelmingly high sex drives feel deprived even when getting it 3 or 4 times a week - a higher than average amount for most long-term (or even many short-term) marriages.

A couple I know is about to divorce over this very issue. They've been together over 25 years, and he still wants it almost all the time. She has always had a much lower sex drive (or physical attraction towards him), but, like LW's wife, she still accommodated his needs 3 or more times a week.

Now, for some reason - maybe mid-life crisis - that isn't good enough, and he's, like, badgering her. If she even changes her clothes in front of him, he's practically jumping her. He complains if they go a day without sex, much less a week.

She says she just can't take it anymore, and has even told him to go get a lover, but, despite BOTU's assertions, that's easier said than done for most average-looking 50+ yr old guys.

Besides, I'm not sure that will even help, as he's still so horny for her, which is wonderful in a way, but when sex becomes so high pressured and demanding, almost anybody would turn off.

Otherwise, they have a really great marriage and are best friends, so it's sad if this issue ends up breaking them apart, but it's not an easy compromise when one person's drive is that extreme.

@lovelysoul

If his sex drive is so extreme, some drugs or berries (used by Buddhist monks, BTW) might help to lower it to a level when they still can be together.

Kudos for not dismissing LW's complain.
In the example you've given, I would search for psychological needs in that guy that he tries to fulfill with sex. Something else is at play if he gets so frustrated without actual decrease in sex he is getting.

Thanks, Mere Mortal. I'll mention that, but somehow, I doubt he wants to lower his sex drive. What man does (other than Buddhist monks)? In fact, it may be his fear that it is lowering - that he's getting older - which is creating this excessive need to have sex, to prove he's still got it. Just my theory.

Guys, as I warned, the topic of "Choreplay" has lumbered into the room. That theory holds that if men did more housework, women would be sexy and hot for them.

If an adult doesn't pick up after him/herself, it's a turn-off, plain and simple.

No, doing a load of laundry won't make the other person want to jump them. But leaving clothes around, leaving food in the sink, and leaving dirty dishes around is gross and disrespectful and will squelch desire if two people are cohabiting.

This doesn't seem to be the LW's situation (as he mentions she'd rather "watch TV" in addition to "do laundry".). But, in some cases, if one partner is doing NO chores, pitching in might do a lot to make sex happen more.

@flyde:

"And Spartee isn't, as far as I remember, knee jerk anti woman. (That would be me and I also don't remember everything) So the ad hominem seems a bit misplaced."

I didn't say that to spartee, I said it to mere mortal. That is who I quoted in that post. Mere mortal had remarked that the women here are engaging in "Blame the guy first". I responded that he always blames the woman.

As stated above, I don't blame either in this case.

My apologies then. I read too fast.

Low sex drive = 2 to 3 times per year. LW needs to get with reality.

God Almighty, who would want to lower their sex drive?? It's quite natural to have a powerful and amazing libido. No 2 of us are alike.

The key to living with someone where you find you are on different pages is to have important communication. Talking about the weather, what day to put out the trash, or what is for dinner is not "important communication". A proper balance of expectations vs. obligations is what is required. Of course, these things ebb and flow through the years, and keeping the lines of communication open is paramount. It sounds like LW's relationship already encompasses this principle, since he describes their commitment to one another, how they have discussed their needs, and have made compromises.

IMHO, LW's most important question is posed at the end of his letter. There are many ways to "get her more interested", however, LW and wife have to make time for some "important communication", so he can learn how to (further) turn her crank; only she can answer that one.

LW needs to get with reality.

To be fair, he's not asking that she have sex with him more, just that she be (or at least act) more interested. Whether she's being overt about only having sex to please him or he's assuming that's how she feels, however, we don't know from the letter. Though I'm sure the fact that she "used to make snide remarks" about his sex drive and only stopped after he laid out his options is factoring into his opinion. I can understand his feeling guilty that his wife is only having sex with him so he won't have an affair. Again, whether that's completely true is unknown from the information we have. LW needs to actually talk to his wife rather than assuming he knows what she's thinking. It's childish to play the waiting game.

Exactly NumberSix.

Nothing bolsters a man's libido like a woman saying "Again?" and then sighing, taking off her clothes and lying back. Really gets our hearts roaring.

Where I differ is how childish the waiting game is. She expresses, in his words, no interest in sex. He is testing that hypothesis. Does she or doesn't she want him. According to him, it is a definite no.

The reason the wife if feeling 'like it's a head game' is because she's welching. He swore to only go to her for his sexual needs. She is ponying up...if by ponying up you mean lying back and thinking of England.

I classified his previous tactic as childish because it's the old "Something's wrong but I'm going to make you guess what it is" game. That is a head game, though it's usually reported by sitcoms as something wives do to husbands. It's a way to purportedly be trying to change things while not actually having to come out and say it so you don't have to be the bad guy if it doesn't go your way. It's odd because he was actually very direct with his wife before when he was explicit about what his options were. And he hasn't gotten a definite no from her because he won't talk to her. He'd rather be 90% sure and in limbo than get that definite no. I hope the feedback Amy got from him was a result of him actually voicing his concerns and asking about hers.

DAN Savage is a sex advice columnist. DOC Savage is a forties era pulp action hero.

And yes, Dan does maintain that if your significant other has cut you off from all sex you are not unjustified in seeking it elsewhere, especially if it would mean kids going through their parents' divorce otherwise. However, this guy is getting his needs met. His wife is good, giving, and game to be there even if she's not a hundred percent into it. I really can't think of anything to make her inherently as into sex as he is. Maybe boosting her testosterone levels with supplements or increased beef and fish consumption.

Has any woman here tried the arousal gels that are available now? KY intense is one I think. Just wondering if those work for anyone or it's just as sales gimmick.

Toys are helpful too. Many couples don't try things like that, but, for women, particularly, vibrators make climaxing much easier. LW's wife might get into it more if they explored some toys.

The thing is, for us women, is that we're almost entirely dependent on what you do for us to achieve orgasm, and, believe me, it's frustrating when what you're doing isn't quite getting us there. Yes, we can stop and say, "please try this that...go slower..."etc, but, often, we're not even sure ourselves why it's not working. It just isn't. And we hate to change the momentum if it seems that you're really into what's happening.

I find great comfort in having my vibrator handy in those moments. It gives me the power to control my own pleasure.

"Setting a schedule may be the worst thing to do. How much more like a chore to check off could you make it? "Oh, gee, I see in my appointment book, I'm having sex with Larry tonight". That kills all the romance and spontaneity."

Like I posted originally....if you need some combination of circunstances to spontaneously come together so you are in the mood for sex, I doubt your sex is satisfying your partner. It's an excuse for 'failure to perform', and nothing more. It's your responsibilty to get yourself ready. When sex routinely seems like more trouble than it's worth, it's time to change partners. Sex with conditions is sub-standard at best.

I know that all of this advice is well intended, but at his wife's age and considering their time together, it's not likely that 'choreplay', toys, lubes, or anything else is going to have much effect on her libido.

For whatever reason, it's become Un-PC to acknowledge that women's libido largely disappears as they progress into middle age. Of course there are exceptions, but for the majority of women this is the case. The cause is most probably hormonal, which is why hormone therapy is often effective in restoring sex drive among older women.

Yes, but he says twice a month they have mindblowing sex, so she's obviously still able to get aroused. The key is to have that happen more often.

But I also think that LW's wife should buck up and, at the very least, if she isn't in the mood, she shouldn't act bored. There are many times I have sex when I'm not really in the mood, but I don't sigh or just lie back and stare at the ceiling, mention the laundry I need to do, or make snide comments. That would be rude and disrespectful to my husband.

It's kind of like she's playing the martyr, or acting in a passive aggressive way. She WANTS him to know that she's only doing this for him, which says to me that there's something else going on in their relationship besides her low libido. For some reason, she wants credit for this. Maybe she feels unappreciated in other areas?

it's become Un-PC to acknowledge that women's libido largely disappears as they progress into middle age. Of course there are exceptions, but for the majority of women this is the case. The cause is most probably hormonal, which is why hormone therapy is often effective in restoring sex drive among older women.

Amazing how people will just haul off and make claims like this without posting any references or support for their point. I spend days and days poring over research (weeks, sometimes) before I will feel right about making a claim like this. Where's your information come from, CNN?

Sorry Amy, I didn't realize that you weren't familiar with the hormonal changes that women experience as they age. I'd assumed that it is common knowledge.

but here you go..

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/004016.htm

@ I'd assumed that it is common knowledge.

Jeff, it is so un-PC to claim that any common knowledge exists. Oh, and do not even mention common sense.

Any claim is justified only by the number of days and weeks one spends poring over solid research papers!

I bow to the superior knowledge of Google bots!

Has any woman here tried the arousal gels that are available now? KY intense is one I think. Just wondering if those work for anyone or it's just as sales gimmick.

Sales. Gimmick. :)

OK I'm confused. Are you claiming that women don't experience hormonal changes as they get older?

You'd asked me for a reference and so I'd posted a reference. Now you're dismissing that reference and claiming that your superior understanding of the research allows you to do that. You're also accusing an entire field of researchers of being biased.

Here's another summary of findings that's going to upset you then - http://www.hormone.org/Reproductive/female-sexual-dysfunction.cfm

Definitely don't browse that site. It's filled with biased research, exaggerations, and fuzzy math!

What's your background in endocrinology BTW, or is it in another science? Where did you receive this training that you speak of?

Can you post a reference that supports your position?

Regarding whether female libido drops as they age, if I had to bet money, my guess is that almost any indirect measure you wish to study would indicate that is the case. We cannot measure something so unquantifiable as "libido", but we can measure it via indirect means. Indirect means would be frequency of sexual activity (sex with partners, masturbation) and number of partners over a period of time.

Thinking about it that way, do we expect that middle-aged women have more or even the same frequency of sexual encounters as compared to their own activity in their late teens and twenties?

Do women in their middle years have more partners than what they had during their more fertile late teens and twenties or fewer?

My guess is you will find that women have fewer, not more, sexual encounters and partners during their middle years as compared to their late teens and twenties.

Those indirect measures are reasonable indicators of a reduced sex drive in middle years, since it would track each person's libido, and allow comparisons over time.

I would guess that the findings would agree with most people's anecdotal observation that middle-aged women are *not* as frequently out at clubs and parties looking for romance, but more likely to be doing middle-aged things, like reading a book at home before falling asleep at 9 pm.

I doubt anyone would suggest that the typical 80 year old woman has a sex drive comparable at all to a typical 21 year old woman. The 80 year old gets to that level by some downward movement, likely occuring over time. Is it objectionable to suggest that you will find that process underway by the time a woman is 40? 45? 50?

A woman takes about 20 mins, on average, just to get aroused enough to orgasm, and that's only if she's relaxed.

Yet there are studies that find most women can masturbate to orgasm in less than two minutes.

I think American women are, in general, very hung up about sex due to a combination of religion and the endless harping by feminists about how women should behave sexually and what losers men are.

While struggling with my marriage, which has since ended, I was honestly stunned at how many men (and a few women) were experiencing the same thing I was, which was laregely the LW's experience only much less frequently. One frustrated all of these men and women most wasn't the sex itself, but the loss of intimacy and of feeling desired and wanted.

Many of you may remember references to Harry Harlows experiments with affection and monkeys. He found that baby monkeys that didn't receive physical affection became very messed up. Follow up studies have indicated that physical affection is vital in adulthood as well.

Yet, in my research, I found that as with me, low libido spouses weren't simply rejecting intimacy and affection, but openly deriding their spouse in very derogatory terms for their natural desires.

And when the high libido spouse looked for help, they were often greeted by many of the thoughtless comments here reinforncing that they [the high libido spouses] were at fault, were abnormal and not doing things right. A common meme is that what a woman wants is good and noble, but what a man wants is digusting and gross.

Joe: "And when the high libido spouse looked for help, they were often greeted by many of the thoughtless comments here reinforncing that they [the high libido spouses] were at fault, were abnormal and not doing things right."

For some reason, guys I know in a professional and personal way come to me and discuss this issue as it relates to them. (God knows I don't ask...)

It has been my observation that a FEMALE high libido spouse is told (by friends and professionals) that her needs are valid, and that the guy had better get it together ... "or else" being a palpable, dreaded, unsaid end to that message.

By contrast, a MALE high libido spouse is told to either lump it with porn (without letting spouse know) or work ever-harder (no pun) at some mysterious quest to make his lover's libido higher. I have never once seen that quest succeed.

When a friend, business associate or male relative of mine starts moping about the issue over beer, my advice to them is the same as what I gave here above: forget trying to rekindle the spouse's sex drive. Instead, make your case to all womanhood. If your spouse gets it together and starts the action up, great. If not...well, there is a palpable, dreaded, unsaid end to that message.

I base that advice on talking to many other thoughtful, perceptive men my own age and even older who experienced such things in their own lives or saw it up close in friends and relatives.

Long-married women no longer putting effort or enthusiasm into sex is not exactly a new thing in marriage or relationships. Grandpa and dad and Uncle Norm can tell you all about it. No lie. if you ask, they will typically snort and start talking, a lot.

But asking a woman about it will get you either wide-eyed suprise at it being an issue or unproductive male-blaming. That is actually not the woman's conscious failing, if you ask me: they want to believe that they actually would find their safe, dependable, loyal husbands and boyfriends exciting, but there must be some reason they don't.

But women do find their safe, dependable, loyal men sexually boring, precisely *because* those men are safe, dependable and loyal.

The truth of it is your woman never wants you so much as when she sees you climbing from the ring, cheered and victorious ... and desired by all the others. When she is under the gun to get or keep you, her motor revs and she starts plotting her take over or retention. Once she thinks she has your attention for good, well, time to consider the new color pallette for the kitchen...

10 years later, as you sit on the couch, doing the taxes? Not so much. But she *thought* that is what she wanted 10 years earlier.

Actually, my unscientific experience is that it is women who get hornier and hornier as they get older, especially into the late 40s. They will fuck anybody from ages 45 to 50.

I suspect this LW is not on the up-and-up. Maybe it was written by a woman who changed her gender in some sort of posturing to get "fair" advice.

Or, if the LW is a guy what he is running up against is that his 45-something year old wife is fucking guys at the gym hard and heavy, and doesn't really have that much pep left for home.

Not to guys in your 50s: Yes, you can score, but sometimes you have to pay for it, travel overseas to Third World nations, or date chicks in their 40s.

"My guess is you will find that women have fewer, not more, sexual encounters and partners during their middle years as compared to their late teens and twenties."

That's not really what I'm seeing among my middle-aged single friends, especially since being a "cougar" has become acceptable. They are getting laid quite frequently.

"Yet there are studies that find most women can masturbate to orgasm in less than two minutes."

I'd like to see that study because it certainly doesn't jive with the majority of research that I've seen, or my experience being a woman. Perhaps if I was extremely aroused, it could take only 2 mins, but frankly, I wouldn't even want it to take 2 mins.

I don't think that Amy is blaming the LW. She is following an effective problem solving strategy. Its the strength based perspective. She is teaching her client to look at what is going well or what is already working. The LW's wife has shown already some willingness to adjust to his needs (she has stopped making disparaging remarks to him for his sex drive and is having sex with him more often).

What he wants is increased intimacy, (to be able to give her orgasms more often and for her to desire him.) I think given her willingness to adjust in the past, that this is a feasible goal. A sex therapist could work with them and possibly get them to the point where she orgasms more regularly. Its worth a try.

Problems with sex in a marriage are often a symptom of another issue. Amy quoted the research about a third of women being uninterested in sex. I wonder if its the same third of women who have a history of sexual abuse. In the past, these women were referred to as "frigid" and were blamed by therapists for their lack of interest. Switching over and blaming the husbands is just as ineffective as blaming the women was in the past. If the LW's wife does have a history of abuse or if there is some other issue, again therapy might help and it is worth trying before ending the marriage or seeking out sex elsewhere.

I think the LW is full of it. Three times a week? If he's been married for over 20 years, he's in his early 40's-early 50's. The average man starts slowing down at 35. They get old and tired.

Believe me, I'd be thrilled to find a man in his 50's who could get it on three times a week. I'd also be thrilled to hit the lottery. I don't know which one's less likely.

As for wanting the woman to initiate: men find it sexy the first couple of times. Then it causes performance anxiety. That's why we don't initiate.

I'm sorry Rozita, but my experience with men is completely different. I've had an older bf whose drive matched or rivaled some of my younger boyfriends' and I initiate because I like doing so. I don't think either one of our experiences is typical. People are different.

"Believe me, I'd be thrilled to find a man in his 50's who could get it on three times a week. I'd also be thrilled to hit the lottery. I don't know which one's less likely."

Yeah, I think you're dating the wrong men. My husband just turned 50 and we have sex almost every day.

What I love about this thread is how the primary issue is how to fix LW's wife. Now, I know this will come as a shock to most men, but you all aren't always the studs you think you are. Have any of you considered the possibity that she knows what she is going get each time and it isn't anything to write home about? There seems to be a reoccurring fantasy among the men out here that they can easily replace their aging, money grubbing, shrewish wives with hot, young, willing chick. Well, sorry guys. Relationships are harder to come by than that. Men do have a shelf life, especially if they aren't rich or Don Juan. The bottom line is respect between partners and communication when these problems arise. I can guarantee you that they both have ownership in this problem.

@ (Rozita) " I think the LW is full of it. Three times a week? ... The average man starts slowing down at 35. They get old and tired. "
.......
Wow, I'm late 50's, broke, but healthy, live alone, and love myself on a daily basis.
........

@ BOTU: "... women ... into the late 40s. They will fuck anybody from ages 45 to 50."

... Um SOME women and not ANYBODY .....
FWIW: My dear estranged, same aged wife quit loving me for good over 6 years ago, but she started rejecting me 22 years earlier . I still pay 100% of her expenses ... cause it's probably cheaper that way ......

I think the LW is full of it. Three times a week? If he's been married for over 20 years, he's in his early 40's-early 50's. The average man starts slowing down at 35. They get old and tired.

I'm 49 and am hornier now than I was in my twenties. I know several men in the same situation.

"Guys, as I warned, the topic of "Choreplay" has lumbered into the room. That theory holds that if men did more housework, women would be sexy and hot for them."

I only brought up the issue of laundry because the LW mentioned it specifically ("I sense that she'd rather be doing laundry than having sex with me..."). That jumped out at me because, cmon, who actually likes doing laundry? It seems more likely that she knows the laundry needs to get done, and can't relax and get in the mood until the chores are out of the way. So why not remove that obstacle and see what happens? It's worth a shot.

You nailed it, Sheepmommy. Yeah, right, guys, there's a whole universe of 20-somethings just waiting for you to go back on the market. BTW, judging by the misogyny exhibited by some of the men commenting here, it's no mystery why their women might be dry as the Sahara.

The way to both sexes is through their respective heads -- top for women, bottom for men. This is why men proffer roses and poetry, and women the slinkly lingerie. What I want to know is, if I give more head, will you really care more about what's going on inside my noggin, as some guys here have suggested? Or will you turn over and ask me to turn off the light?

@ The way to both sexes is through their respective heads -- top for women, bottom for men.

Feminist agitprop and BS.

Claire: "Yeah, right, guys, there's a whole universe of 20-somethings just waiting for you to go back on the market."
...
"The way to both sexes is through their respective heads -- top for women, bottom for men."

Interesting. The same post which decries others' misogyny exhibits a sneering attitude towards men generally, without being specific about what points of disagreement the writer actually has with prior posts. /arched eyebrow

Regarding Claire's second thought, which suggests that men are best approached via their sex organ, while women can be appealed to via their higher order thinking, I leave it to readers to conclude whether this is an evenhanded, fair view of the sexes.

I would note, though, that when you look at the great artists, philosophers, scientists, and other thinkers throughout time and across the ages, they are overwhelmingly men. That is true despite the presence of leisured, educated women throughout that same time period existing alongside the leisured, educated men who made up the artists, philosophers, scientists, and other thinkers we still remember. In short, there were untold millions of women--then and now--with the opportunity to make a contribution. Yet...little was produced, it seems.

As one skeptic of this concept of men-as-cavemen, once said in another context, where is the female Mozart? Einstein? Aristotle? Shakespeare? In all the millenia of humanity, no women had similar chances to contribute in that way? Really....? Or is is simply that history reflects what we are able to measure today? That men have flatter, longer bell curve, with a larger proportion of the male population existing at both ends, relative to the female population? In sum, there are more very smart men relative to the number of women, and so we would expect more contribution from men in the upper ranges of intellectual achievement.

So when Claire says it is men who are the less evolved intellectual sex of our species, how should we judge her view, based on the knowledge of how intellectually productive men have demonstrably been relative to women over the millenia?

Me? I remain unconvinved.

@Men need to be accomplished to get chicks.

Another feminist crap.

Men who accomplish a lot (in arts and science)
rarely get more chicks than their peers who pursue them instead of truth and beauty.

Socrates, Newton, Descartes, Milton, etc. did all they did just to get a chick? Laughable and counter factual.

Get it, o Goddess: the pursuit of truth and beauty is much more rewarding and interesting to men of intellect than the pursuit of a wet pussy.

Mere Mortal: "Socrates, Newton, Descartes, Milton, etc. did all they did just to get a chick? Laughable and counter factual."

Well, yes. Those men were driven to achieve in order to obtain or maintain social standing. That drive comes out in various ways. Intellectual achievement is one of them. When you see women engaging in seemingly odd behavior that does not directly lead to mating opportunities, that does not mean that mating strategies are not in play.

I think Ms. Alkon's point, which I agree with, is that men must generally be perceived to have (or likely to possess in short order) social standing in order to get chicks. Or at least that social standing really, really helps.

Social standing typically means having more accomplishments or access to resources relative to other males. Money, titles, notable prizes, accolades from peers are all ways that men can demonstrate that relative achievement or access.

Men can also simply adopt certain behaviors suggestive of someone who has achieved relative success, which is what I take it to mean when women say they like "confident" men. That is, they are really saying I like guys who seem to feel more in control of circumstances than other men," because that is a proxy for achievement and status. After all, defeated losers are rarely chin-up, smirking, confident men.

Anyway, getting back to the point, you seem to be noting that the typical adult science geek, no matter how successful, is often less successful with women in terms of getting gals than the average high school football player.

Probably true. But what you really have there is an instance of geeky guys competing for notoriety where they have advantages. The science geeks cannot compete for accolades in football (or poetry or male modeling) with any hope of relative success. So they gravitate towards those areas where they can compete, even if those areas are, on average, less likely to bring the winners much in the way of standing. It is the only arena open to them where they may have some success.

@Spartee

I was trying to make a different point:
Science and arts men on many occasions are not even in pursuit of chicks. For example, Newton died a virgin. So, he could not care less about social standing that is translatable to chicks getting all wet about him.

More than all those subtleties of "he who has accomplished something gets the hottest chicks" the factor of supply and demand plays out more prominently: were soldiers of defeated armies lacking chicks at home? No. Since many of their comrades were dead, they were in high demand. So, their only accomplishment was to stay alive.
Duh.

More accurately, "he who devotes his live and sincere efforts to get as many chicks as possible --- get them." Not likely that such guy will have any other "accomplishments."

@I think Ms. Alkon's point, which I agree with, is that men must generally be perceived to have (or likely to possess in short order) social standing in order to get chicks.

Spartee, I would argue that this point is just an ideological postulate.

It would be true, if women in general would possess "something" so valuable that men would fall over themselves to get it and that that something has no expiration date and women would not be desirous of something comparably valuable in men.

It is not the case.
Human mating behavior is more like a negotiation under constantly changing conditions. The balance of negotiating powers is shifting through out history.

Miss Alkon and those who invented the ideology she represents on so many occasions assert that women hold all the jokers. So men should do their bidding. Starting with achieving a status women would like to be associated with and ending with doing laundry as a way of begging for sex. Maybe it has some truth to it nowadays, but I object it being formulated as some inherent nature of human gender relations.

@Amy Actually, for the most part, it remains the same as it's been for millions of years.

Huh, only goddesses know what it was actually like millions of years ago --- mere mortals have some knowledge on the past 4000 years and only vague guesses on what was before that.

mere mortals have some knowledge on the past 4000 years and only vague guesses on what was before that.

Not true: 150000 years ago, Earth was populated by the remnants of a technologically advanced, quite egalitarian society that mated with the indigenous population to produce a species that's part ancient cybernetic human. Or did Ronald D. Moore lie to me?

Seriously, though, anthropology is more than just "vague guesses." And it does extend further back than written history. If you're going to dispute an interpretation of facts, at least come up with an alternative or explain how the interpretation fails.

"Regarding Claire's second thought, which suggests that men are best approached via their sex organ, while women can be appealed to via their higher order thinking, I leave it to readers to conclude whether this is an evenhanded, fair view of the sexes."

I was responding to more than one post before me! One guy even said something like (I'm paraphrasing), "women's mental or emotional needs are given more respect than a man's physical needs."

OK, so I'm meeting your physical needs. Now what? Do you give a rat's a** about my emotional needs?

Also, I don't think my view of the sexes is sexist. Men do respond to visual cues that promise sex. Women need to be romanced. You disagree with that, take it up with God.

BTW, I said nothing about higher order thinking. That's you taking immediate offense to what you think I said.

Just a few comments.

Both men and women prefer mates who are healthy and fit. This is not actually a gender difference. The gender difference resides in how far up the list health and fitness are for men versus women. So while men may put physical features higher on their list of priorities than women, most women aren’t really attracted to the rich guy with boils and lesions down the street.

Human mate selection is a very complicated process with many variables to take into consideration. The prioritized list has been shown to differ between men and women, but the items on the list are pretty much identical.

Furthermore, it is exceedingly difficult to isolate one factor and say that that factor is what men or women prefer in general. Men and women asses the entire package, it is a holistic analysis that takes into account all of the factors.

In a vacuum it is pretty easy to say that all members of the human race would prefer a partner who was attractive over ugly, who was intelligent over stupid, who was rich over poor, who was healthy over diseased.

Those preferences are universal, it is the rankings that are different.

I kind of get that his complaint is not so much that he doesn't have as much sex as he wants, as that he can sense that his wife isn't really into it part of the time. And that's not a happy feeling.

Telling her he would like her to take initiative seems pointless to me. Many women have a sexdrive that's sort of slumbering-unless-roused and it's often just not somebody that the body presents as 'hey, we should do this now'. I have a fairly high sexdrive, but if it's left to me to initiate we wouldn't do it nearly as often just because the suggestion apparently needs to put into my mind, then my subconscious chews it over and often comes up with "yes, let's!"

Telling her he wants her to initiate is not going to lead to her wanting him more (which is what he really wants), only to her adding it to the list of 'things I do to make him happy' and personally I feel it's sort of a 'please act more enthusiastic' request.

Wonder if he's considered trying to change up those times she isn't really in the right headspace but doing it anyway. Good sex is about feeling connected, so is he trying for that? Or is he, perhaps subconsciously feeling she is humouring him, 'just getting it over with'? Are they kissing, massaging, looking into each other's eyes, whispering into each other's ears, etc? Sometimes the mind needs a little while to catch up and go 'Actually, this is a great idea' and I think he might do better in summoning that by focusing on connection, not on trying to get her to act more enthusiastic.

snorting valium