Self-interest is at its most presentable when dressed up in a Florence Nightingale outfit.

Well put.

Let's assume the LW is correct: 30-something girl likes 40-something guy, but he doesn't reciprocate, and she is angry at the 50-something LW. Assuming that's the case, she doesn't get a flying froo-froo what YOU or HE feel, only what SHE wants.
Respect and consideration are two-way streets. If she is being rude because she feels threatened by LW, then LW should consider herself complimented, but under no circumstances cut off her chance with this man because of her.

Human beings are not donuts. Ms. Younger does not get to call "dibs" on the tastiest-looking one.

As a woman who regularly has younger men ask her out. Ask yourself if this guy while younger is close to the same emotional life stage as you are. Has he had children? Are they grown? Are you younger in attitude than in years? Is he mature or is he a 40 something looking for a mom?

If the younger woman is upset or standoffish, just be pleasant to her. I would not ask the man asking you out about this younger woman.

I would ask that man about where he wants this to go. I would ask him how he feels about me. If you do not know about his dating background, I would ask if he is over his last relationship. I would treat this as I would treat any other relationship is the very beginning stages.

As for how the other woman feels, she does not have his ring on her finger, she does not live with him, why are you worried about her. If he had wanted to ask her out he could have at any time. She was right there and flirting. Obviously she was selling but he was not buying.

Quit making excuses for not going on a date with him, if you like him and are attracted to him, clear your decks and go on a date with him!

I would ask that man about where he wants this to go. I would ask him how he feels about me. If you do not know about his dating background, I would ask if he is over his last relationship. I would treat this as I would treat any other relationship is the very beginning stages.

So, we're not even on date number 1, and were already down on points for turning down multipule date requests and your advice is asking the big three? Right out of the gate?

Where is our relationship going?
Do you Love me?
Are you still in love with your ex?

That is how you start your relationships worthit? How many of them last halfway into the first date?

Or are you the 30 something woman setting out on a flase flag op?

Crap the answers to the questions dissapeared

Where is our relationship going?
Well it was going to dinner, but something just came up

Do you Love me?
Well, we've collectivly speant about 20 minutes alone together outside of work, but I've loved every minute of it

Are you still in love with your ex?
Well after she set my car on fire I wrote her of as a psycho, but, in hindsight, maybe she wasnt that bad

Sounds like the LW wants what everyone wants in a relationship: incredible assurances right out the gate that she won't get hurt.

Fraid it doesn't work that way. If you want to risk happiness, you need to risk disappointment and pain.

Actually scratch that. You WILL get disappointment and pain. It just might be that the happiness more then makes up for it.

Should I just come out and tell this man what my intuition's telling me? Ask him what's up between him and the young woman?

No, do NEITHER. Do you like the guy? Then, ferpetesakes, go out on a date and see what happens! Don't worry about 30-something. She'll either get over or make an ass out of herself over you and 40-something going out, which will seal the deal for 40-something, in that he'll think she's the psycho, and he'll be glad he's hanging with YOU, LW.

Why do people complicate things by over-thinking them?

No, I do not start out any dates like that but if she needs to ask about anything she needs to ask about him not some young thing. All that does is make her look unreasonable and jealous. I admit I was tired when I wrote about asking questions.

Frankly I think she is trying to do everything she can to sabotage the relationship.

I have known a few women in my life who place themselves so they are surrounded by men. Even if they are not dating any of them. Sometimes these women get possessive of the men in their "pack". The only thing to do in that type of situation is to ignore her.

Now about this man, he is asking you out and you have not gone on a date yet? How many times are you going to turn him down? If you like him you need to make time in your life for him. You need to give it a chance. He will only ask so many times. So I have an idea if you really like him and you have to turn him down yet again, suggest an alternate day and time or multiple days and times. For example he asks you out for Friday, and you are unavailable, suggest that you are available Saturday, Sunday and the next Wednesday. Encourage him to talk about himself and you will get a lot of the answers you seem to be seeking just in conversation.

"I would treat this as I would treat any other relationship is the very beginning stages."

Which is probably why they end so soon.

I agree with Flynne that LW is totally overthinking this, and with worthit that the younger woman is getting possessive of the men in her pack. Miss Thirtysomething might not be so interested in LW's guy, she may just not want another lady on what she considers her turf. Of course, what the younger woman wants is immaterial, since the guy is persuing the LW.

The funny thing is that the LW doesn't think that this guy should have any say in the matter. She should probably keep all of her concerns to herself, because frankly she seems a little kooky - I shalt not harm another woman!!

Well said, kiki!

I've seen this tendency occassionally, where a couple of women start to decide what is going to happen in some guy's life and/or arrange whatever without consulting him.

I don't see that happen as much on the guy's side, but it's not impossible.

suggest an alternate day and time or multiple days and times.

This. If you like someone and you *really* can't bend your schedule when asked for a date, make it clear you are available other times. Specific times, not "some other time". "No, I'm afraid I'm busy" with no followup just sounds like "no, not interested".

As for the question - he's asked multiple times - what more do you need to know? I would have given up by now. Try saying yes. The younger woman is not your problem. Either he has asked her out too and she said no (her loss), or he has chosen not to. Either way, what do you care?

Anyway, at 48/57 he's probably more likely to have stuff in common with you than a 30-something. I wouldn't call that much of an age gap. Maybe he really prefers not to start a relationship with someone who is going to hassle him for kids for instance.

Luj- Ha! Love your response. Personally, I think this sounds like a lot of angst over what is probably nothing more than a booty call. LW sounds like a flake to me and the guy should consider himself lucky to have dodged this particular bullet.

LW needs to lighten up. If he likes the younger woman better, he will go out with her, with no feeling coddling necessary. I could see this level of angst if these two women were friends, but they're not.

SM, MonicaP - I wouldn't be so hard on the LW. It's easy for people to feel unlovable for a variety of reasons. She's worried about her age and why he would pick her over a younger woman. I'm a drunk and tend to assume no one would be interested in me, all evidence to the contrary. Same sort of thing.

Of course, I think she should take the fact that he has asked her out as a positive and run with it. But low self-esteem leading to overthinking the situation is not all that unusual.

It sounds like LW is worried about something else, that she feels uneasy about the guy.

I think sheepmommy has the essence of it. Most women over the age of 30 are already in a relationship. The women that aren't, like the men that aren't, have lots of trouble maintaining relationships because they are asses, flakes, borderline, antisocial, narcissists or carry lots and lots of emotional baggage.

The exception of course, are those who have had their SO die on them or run off the Tibet in the last 12 months or so.
Thinking about relationships and "over thinking" them to the point of paralysis becomes a substitute for actually having one.

There is something this LW is very afraid of, and it is not some minor concern about some other woman in the office.

The Original Kit: Human beings are not donuts.

A pox upon Dunkin' Donuts for their contribution toward ending standardized spelling. The word is "doughnuts," not "donuts."

(I'd address the topic, but I seem to have arrived late to the party; anything I could say would be redundant. Still, it was an excellent column.)

My advice, try forget about the mini soap opera going on in your head about this, and just try relax and have a good time with the guy. If he enjoys spending time with you AND he finds you attractive, you're on good footing. If it seems to be going in the right direction then give subtle indications of where you want it to go, if he responds, great. If not, then it probably 'wasn't meant to be'. Forcing the issue, or asking questions like you are thinking of asking, probably will ruin it. As for 'causing pain for the other woman', if he's into her then you won't cause any pain, and if he's not that into her, then you also won't cause any pain because he wasn't interested to begin with.

I don't really get this. It's one of the oddest "problems" we've had. Is she suggesting that she wants to tell the guy that she believes this younger woman likes him? Does she think he's too dense to know this, or that if she tells him, it'll make a difference, like maybe he won't want to date her anymore?

"Oh, thanks for letting me know I could date a 30 yr old! I thought I was just stuck with 50-somethings."

LW seems to have a lot of insecurity underlying all this. I'm not sure what to advise, but she certainly shouldn't say anything to either of them. She'll only make herself sound kooky. The guy is free to date BOTH of them if he chooses, and she hasn't even dated him yet. She has no business trying to organize his romantic life.

>> The women that aren't, like the men that aren't, have lots of trouble maintaining relationships because they are

I'm single and in my early 40's, so I'd like to object to this characterization. Unfortunately it's largely true.

Maybe her noble "I don't want to cause another woman pain" is really disguising feelings such as "I don't want to be caught up in another woman's dramatic bullshit" or "I don't want to compete with a woman half my age"?

Nonetheless I think telling him about this would be really, really weird. She hasn't even been on a date with him yet and already she wants him to communicate his feelings about other women or their possible feelings about him? None of her damn business, unless he's married or otherwise seriously committed.

Some women have this silly notion that you can only date one person at a time, so it seems that her concern is that she doesn't want to get involved with him if there's even the slightest chance he also may want to date the other woman...or probably any other woman.

Of course, they all apparently work together, which could make things more awkward, but she needs understand that a date isn't a lifetime commitment or even a relationship. How she can presume to ask him to define his feelings for this other girl when she's not even dating him yet is beyond me.

But I love how she justifies it with fake concern for the other woman's "pain". That's a new one. lol

I have to comment on the intuition of this person.
"He's asked me out on dates a few times " = he MIGHT be interested.

"grudgingly nice, if not cool, to me" = she has feelings for him.

The first is a big green flashing sign that he is interested in you.

The second is IMO pure guess, she might not like you because she liked being the only girl, or because you are new, or a dozen different things.
Ignore her and pursue him.

In re reading the letter, I am wondering if the LW has not been in the dating world for long, if she is either recently divorced or recently widowed. If she is coming out of a long term relationship she has no idea of what dating is like.

So here is dating 101 in the year 2011.

If a man asks you out he does not seem interested, he IS interested.
If he invites you more than once and you turn him down even if it is last minute, he will stop asking soon.
If another woman is interested in a man who is interested in you it does not matter unless she has his ring on her finger. AN exception could be if the woman is your best friend, but only if the man has shown interest in her too.
If you are interested in a man who has asked you out more than once and you have not been able to go, it is perfectly okay for you to ask him out for coffee or drinks when you have time.
If you are not interested in this man then quit wasting his and your time and quit playing volleyball with him.

Worthit,

If a man asks you out he does not seem interested, he IS interested.

Absolutely. I had to chuckle at her use of "seems."

If he invites you more than once and you turn him down even if it is last minute, he will stop asking soon.

I have to disagree here. To me, there's a big difference in asking out a woman ahead of time, and repeatedly being told "sorry, I have other plans" and asking her out at the last minute and hearing that. The former seems like "I'm not interested" but the latter is reasonable and I'd continue asking (but not at the last minute.)

If you are interested in a man who has asked you out more than once and you have not been able to go, it is perfectly okay for you to ask him out for coffee or drinks when you have time.

How refreshing to hear a woman say that.

"I would rather be lonely and bitter then 'hurt' another lady. I'd rather avoid potential happiness because I might be hurt for a short time by rejection from a guy who already asked me out"

Does it sound any better worded like that?

I'm getting the sense that maybe she's ambivilent about the whole relationship thing in general. This is pretty weak

Mayhe the LW and the 30-year-old can set up a "sandwich" job for their beloved male co-worker. After that let him choose the best, or make it a three-way deal.

Women's narrow-minded jealous natures are never truly warranted. Share and share alike.

There are several men in this lunchtime group and just the 30ish woman? Why on earth would the letter writer think the younger woman was interested in that particular guy?