29/f

Let me speak in black and white generalities for a minute:

I wouldn't write a guy with that desired age range either, for the same reason I don't date guys that young. It's a huge imbalance, and it's not about brains or inner beauty - it's about dating experience. If you have the same amount of dating experience as someone 2/3 your age, there's either something wrong with you, or there's someone wrong with them. (generalities!) My former good guy friend dated a girl ten years younger (22, 32) and after he demolished her heart, I never looked at him the same way. To put it simply, he was 50% of the serious relationships she had, and she was like 8% of his, so she took it way more seriously than he did (even though on most levels, it probably looked like it was working). If you're okay with that kind of power, that's cool, but I think a lot of women feel this way

Also if he's so open minded and doesn't want to limit his own options, why not include more than 1 year above his own age? Kind of defeats his own logic there. As a 28 year old I, too, would skip on over that profile.

you seriously don't want to date a 18 yo when you are already 34 ( maybe f**k them, but that's another story). Give it a try and you'll see.

I see this rejection as a possible convenient excuse. She didn't get any sparks from him, so she found a semi-plausible reason to be break off any future involvement. Nothing like a dose of righteous indignation make a clean break.

When I did the online personals thing (which didn't last long), I would do that myself.

I figured it was kinder (and easier for me) to simply find a reason to be put off and end all conversation than spend days/weeks emailing each other (to "give him a chance") only to finally say that I don't see a future with this man.

Usually, my tip off that this wasn't going to work was in the photographs. Guys doing personals would have this habit of photographing themselves posing shirtless.

Nothing says "I'm shallow, vain and self-absorbed" like a guy's picture, holding his own camera posing shirtless.

I have nothing against a picture of a guy shirtless, but it should be engaged in activity where you'd reasonably expect a guy be shirtless. Playing volleyball on a beach, for instance. Or doing yard work. But posing in front of a mirror and holding your own camera? Or posing with one arm extended in front of you, so that it shows your holding your own camera in front of you?

"How do I love ME? Let me count the ways..."

Another possibility is that she simply gets off rejecting guys.

Yeah, it's interesting how Mr. "Don't want to limit my options" includes 18-year-olds in the age range he would consider, but I guess a woman two or three years older than him is over-the-hill You have to give him some credit; lots of guys are only interested in women up to five or ten years younger than they are.

LW, unless the service requires you to put something in the age range, don't put anything. There are times when less information is better. This is one of them.

Maybe he just figures the ones claiming to be 35 will actually be 40, so the 18s would be 23, or right in his ballpark!

That's the complaint I'm always seeing about on-line dating, anyway.

The indication that he is a college professor somewhat bothers me. Without knowing what or where he teaches, it almost sounds like he entertains fantasies regarding his students.

I would say that 18 is not too young when you're 29, but when you're 34, you should write that you're interested in a range around 23 - 35 and hope that some younger women might just go ahead and respond to your profile. I know women who put a specific range on their profiles and they keep getting messages from guys just "hoping" they're willing to go a little higher (or a little lower).

The thing that strikes me, is this is a guy who claims to be a Professor.

With the sex inbalance in collge these days, he should be teaching and working around huge numbers of women.

And if he is in engineering or sciences, he should get out more. And walk across campus.

So why does he have to do online dating? Why isnt he meeting women the old fashioned way?

What is wrong with him? These are the bells that would be going off in my head, if I was looking at his profile.

Wow, she sounds like a real joy. Bullet dodged.

I personally think the age range is wide enough not to be *too* creepy. It's the 34-year-old dudes with desired age ranges of "18 to 24" that I find creepy. Like, wow, dude, that's ... quite specific. But to avoid scaring women away, I agree with Amy -- perhaps bump up the minimum age to post-college-graduate? 22 or 23?

The problem is that he's a professor, surrounded by hot kiddies.

His brain's chemical receptors are flooded with responses to all the young hotties - and he's thinking that they're 'his crowd', instead of the 36 year old professor working in the next lecture hall over.

I wonder if this might help explain how professors can get so completely out of touch with other parts of reality as well ...

"18 year olds aren't people yet."

Yes, I suppose all those teenaged infantrymen I served with in Afghanistan weren't real people. Unless she means that 18-year-old women are far less mature than 18-year-old men, which is a distinct possibility, but I'm sure a you-go-grrl feminist would never entertain such a possibility.

Anyway, maybe this man is looking to have children and wants to meet a young woman who is likely to produce healthy babies and who won't cost him $40K in infertility treatments. Or he wants to meet a woman who hasn't let her body run to obesity yet. Or he just likes women young enough that the dark cloud of cynicism hasn't completely overtaken their personalities.

He should disregard the online dating. At 34, he's starting to reach his peak status and highest dating value (assuming he's in decent physical shape). He should be out and about meeting real women. And by "real women" I don't mean the kind with nothing but convex curves.

My guess is that the responder has been on the dating website a couple of weeks too long and has caught the cynicism bug. She should be grateful that the guy didn't send her a picture of his manhood, but it's too late for that. She's seen enough and needs to back away from the screen.

Why are you insulting this lady? She gave him an honest answer. He WILL have better luck if he states an age range of say, 25-35. My 28-year-old self also would have been sketched out. He will be more attractive if he doesn't come across like some guy who is drooling over the barely legal.

MikeInRealLife's advice to get into the real world was good, but Amy, you missed it this time! Assuming he doesn't want the real world dating experience, he needs help making a profile that makes him as attractive as possible. Which means changing his age range.

I don't think the woman should have been insulting about it, but really 34 looking for as young as 18 comes across a little creepy. Also the fact that he only considers those 35 and younger seems shallow.

Maybe he assumes he should be the mature one in the relationship, I don't know.

Regarding the fact that he listed 18-35, maybe he does prefer 18 year olds. So, what? They are of legal age, and they, like he, have the right to like what they like. The fact that he listed 18-year-olds doesn't mean that he's got a big knife and is hiding in the bushes in the park at night. It means that if an eighteen-year-old really does want to date someone nearly twice her age, he's open to it.

I fail to see why this is creepy. He's not stalking anyone, he's just indicating what he's open to. These hypothetical eighteen-year-olds have the right to be with him if they so choose. He's allowing them to choose him. Besides, he's a college professor, which means he has a lot of experience communicating with them.

"Should I really be faulted for being open-minded? "

My god. That is brilliantly expressed.

"Should I really be faulted for being open-minded? "

My god. That is brilliantly expressed.

Posted by: Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at September 4, 2013 1:19 PM

Get over the idea that women find open mindedness an attractive characteristic in men.
Generally women want men who are close minded in exactly the same areas that they are.

I'm with Anonymous (the very first commenter) on this. Does this guy have to date people half his age just to have a level playing field? Or is it that he doesn't want a level playing field?

"Get over the idea that women find open mindedness an attractive characteristic in men. "

As soon as you get over the idea that dogs came from Sirus and pigs live in trees.

She did him a favor, but I think she did other women a disservice by giving him advice he could use to appear (at least, on line) to be a bit further along on the well-adjustedness spectrum than he appears to be in the letter.

From what my dating friends tell me, it's helpful to find the freak flags waving in the profiles and online, and sooner rather than later, so that one can run toward or away from them.

"Get over the idea that women find open mindedness an attractive characteristic in men. "

As soon as you get over the idea that dogs came from Sirus and pigs live in trees.

Posted by: Gog_Magog

I should have been more clear Gog, It is the letter writer that needs to figure out, that open minded is not on 90 percent of any female wish lists in a man,

the "open mind" is a man fantasy about women.

A man will be considered open minded only if he holds exactly the same views as the woman evaluating him for "open mindedness."

If I were 24 and reading this profile, I would suspect that for him, the younger the better. It's a bad idea to pursue a relationship with a man who prioritizes that highly, especially when he's surrounded by young cuties all day.

Also, right or wrong, I see a 34-year-old willing to date 18-year-olds as setting the bar low in terms of shared experiences, sophistication, and other things that I WANT to be valued for in addition to my looks. Basically I had the same reaction as his respondent.

I would not have lectured him, but I would not have dated him. I think I am typical in this regard, and plenty of women will say nothing but pass him by. The advice to bump up the lower end of the age range is solid.

Ah, thanks Isab, much clearer now.

I had to laugh that the LW actually couched it as being "open-minded" to want to boff 18 year old hotties.

Louis CK on girls vs women.

A woman who refuses an online profile because of the generic age range on his profile (which was probably contemplated for about 6 seconds), is way to stupid, narcissistic, judgemental, reactionary, and generally clueless to be worth a second thought, let alone reading through a diatribe from about why she's refusing you.

Maybe women put a lot of heart and thought into their every mouse click...but very few men do.

...as busy as she must be getting the ignition lock replaced on her broom.

That shit made me chortle. I almost couldn't read the rest of the post because I was laughing so damn hard.

LW: All that happened here is that you simply encountered a b-tch, who felt like treating you badly because she's a bully. Two points: One, she is doing you a favor by 'breaking the deal', you DO NOT want her. Two, do not waste even one more iota of energy or time even thinking about her BS - forget it immediately, purge it from your brain, and keep your open mind for those beautiful 18-year-olds. Life is way, WAY too short to not just go after and enjoy what you want to go after, do not let random killjoys spoil it for you by trying to shame YOUR choices about YOUR LIFE. It's YOUR life, not theirs. If people want to stigmatize going out with 18-year-olds, frankly that's all the more reason to go for it. Of course most 18-year-olds prefer guys closer to their own age ... but there are no absolute rules on that.

Our host said: And no, men don't want older women. Deal with it.

And it's true generally and in broad strokes.

But it's not an iron-clad rule; plenty of us are perfectly open to dating (seriously) a woman somewhat older than we are ("much older" is rare, in my experience).

"A few years older" is not typically a big problem.

"Ten or fifteen years older" is a much bigger hurdle.

Colleges are full of lots of young people... and lots of old people (tenured faculty and "deans" of random stuff). There's not so much between 28 (grad students) and tenured faculty (upper 30's MIN).

Also, any fraternization is HIGHLY limited and can open serious cans of worms (my husband and I met when I was an undergrad & he a graduate student... and THAT was challenging enough). This guy could actually risk his job & future prospects if he were to try to find a date - even for potential marriage - where he works. Also, as I indicated, there's probably not a lot of folks there near his age.

I listed an age range of 18 to 35 on my profile, not because I particularly like 18-year-olds but simply to avoid limiting my options. Of course, any options that are more than twelve months older than me are completely off the table.

I honestly don't think the LW was trying to be creepy, and he didn't deserve to be castigated for it. But cutting off the age he was looking for at 35 doesn't look good.

I have a rule of thumb - 15 years younger *or* older is about the limit. I'm 40, so that's 25 to 55. I've dated at both ends of that range and been perfectly happy about it.

His "keeping my options open" defense would have been way more convincing if he'd said 18-50.

Also Shannon, you're right, where he works his options are either high-risk or close to nonexistent.

plenty of us are perfectly open to dating (seriously) a woman somewhat older than we are

Yup. Best relationship I ever had was with a woman two years older than me. It's been over 20 years since I let her get away, and I still kick myself.

Of course he wasn't trying to be creepy, and he probably isn't creepy. But his profile is coming off as creepy and needs to be fixed.

Dear Amy,

Online dating isn't going so well. I'm a 30-year-old female professor seeking a relationship. I listed a salary range of 80k to 3 million on my profile, not because I particularly like millionaires but simply to avoid limiting my options. I messaged a eco-businessman who earns 250k, noting that I loved that she "enjoys supporting people who have a purpose and a passion." He wrote back: "You seem really cool, but the fact that you want to date men who are millionaires is a deal-breaker. Many of them earn money in sketchy ways. You're a professor. You know that." He then lectured me for failing to admire that he clearly HAS purpose and passion -- he doesn't just support those things -- but considering my interest in millionaires, purpose and passion probably don't matter much to me anyway. Huh?! Should I really be faulted for being open-minded?

forgot to change a "she" to "he " but you get the idea

Perhaps the title 'professor' is also throwing people off a bit ... 34 is very young to be a professor, when we hear "professor" what comes to mind is someone much older. But 34 is still pretty young. Would you all be as judgmental if this was, say, a 34-year old male actor who kept 18yos on his radar? Or is it that what people actually find offensive is that he is perceived to be trying to date 'above his station', ie he's a professor, so he's just a nerd, right, and doesn't deserve an 18yo (as NicoleK's analogy also seems to suggest suggest, even if that wasn't quite conscious, an 18-year-old woman has been posited as the equivalent of a very wealthy man - and therefore, IS something desirable, contrary to some of the other claims here). (I suspect the women mainly complain because subconsciously they feel threatened by 18-year-olds, so they have to push a "standard" and stigmatize etc.) Way I see it, whatever he wants is what he wants, it's none of anyone else's business really, a man should not act as if what he wants is shameful.

Actually, NicoleK, I don't get the idea at all. If you can be content with someone in your own income bracket but are open to millionaires, then include millionaires. It's your right to like what you like.

Do college professors make 80K? If so, I think that's a fair comparison. His age range include his own age, and even went slightly over.

In fact, your hypothetical match.com profile has a better chance of succeeding than his does. Young women generally want young men. But millionaires seem less determined to marry millionairesses.

I think it's better to be open. What if Mr. Right responded to you, then said, "Oh, but I see that your income range is 80K to 250K. I make 2.7 million a year. Sorry. Good luck in your searches.

Back when I was using match.com, I had no upper age limit on my profile. I would search for people who were, at the most, four years younger than me, but I went all the way to the top in upper age.

Not because I'm into old people. (Yes, I cruise nursing homes. I once had a 60-year-old with the body of an 85-year-old! Ah, the good old days!) But because I've met a lot of gay men who still look really great, and are still really active, despite being 20 years older than me. And it's been my experience that older men tend to be quieter, more settled and mature. I can cozy up to that.

Lobster gets it. Of course part of the problem is that 18-year-olds are perceived as the equivalent as millionaires in the looks dept. That's why the whole "What?! I'm being open minded!" thing makes one snort. It doesn't count as "open minded" to expand your range to include the even hotter or even richer.

Fact is, women are going to be put off by men who say they want 18-year olds. Men are going to be put off by women who want millionaires. People of both sexes will be put off by people who only check off "white" for races they want to date. None of those things are bad things to want, but they LOOK bad on your profile and will make people judge you negatively even if they meet your criteria.

I met my husband via online dating, and one of the things that appealed to me in his profile was that his age range was very realistic--AND it went 5 years older than his own age. (I'm 2 years older than him).

I agree that the letter writer probably dodged a bullet with this particular girl, but what also jumped out at me was his upper age limit being so narrow compared to his lower age limit--if he's so "open minded", would a 40 year old really be so unacceptable?

I think he should post his profile here and we can all give him tips! :)

NicoleK, if I ever decide to seriously pursue online dating, I'm going to do precisely that! Frank and fearless advice :)

Amy, I look, and act, a lot younger than I am (I'm going to disown puppyish though). But that can work both ways. I'll freely admit to having been quite happy to be the boy toy to older women who were hot, had had their children or didn't want them, and quite frankly were better in bed than an 18 year old anyway.

Of course, if the LW really wants kids, that changes things a bit, and his upper age limit makes more sense.

"Bear in mind that some people are younger and more puppyish than their actual age." Amy

'jes... I myself am simply a really experienced 20 year old. essentially 20-28, as they say :devil:

The problem is, I identify across all age groups, but I have met a number of women my age who are put off by my impish ways, and they surely don't eat ramen noodles out of the pan. importantly it irritates them that I am not towing the late middle aged line. I even got the comment that I bought a little red coupe as a middle aged thing. As if car before last wasn't a red Jeep, or last car wasn't a sporting sedan. It's a civic, not a porsche.

Mature people go on cruises, not to comic-con, and they certainly don't listen to that noise that kids listen to today. :how massive is my eyeroll: "hope I die, before I get old..."

sounds like she's 24 going on 50.

As long as boya realizes that most of those young'uns won't be interested, he'll be fine. He should prolly just remove the range.

Ha, SwissArmyD, I just bought a 15 year old Subaru Impreza WRX. *That's* how you do mid-life crisis, with a turbo pocket rocket!

One of the reasons for my fairly widely ranged age guideline is that women my age are pretty much off limits. They're either looking for marriage and kids RIGHT NOW! or prematurely jaded. I much prefer younger, not in a hurry, fun, or older, been there done that can relax now fun.

Having said that, individuals can always be different, so it depends.

Eh. If I were reading the profile it would put me off. I know 18 is legally an adult, but it still sounds like a high school "kid" to me and a 34-year-old professor wanting to date a high school kid seems weird/icky. As others have pointed out, if he wanted to keep an open mind, why limit his upper age range to only a year older than himself?

On the other hand, I wouldn't presume to scold him for it, I'd just conclude this guy is not for me and move on to the next profile. Although unlikely, there's possibly an 18-year-old out there for him and if they find each other it's no skin off my nose.

"It's like a woman who rescues dogs who told me "that saddens me" that I was getting a dog from a breeder.

Anyway, I told this woman, "You know absolutely nothing about me," and it was absolutely presumptuous for her to advise me (which she did) that I "needed" to get a dog from a shelter."

I have a veterinarian cousin who at heart feels the same way, that we should get dogs from shelters and not breeders. However, he never condemns anybody for using a breeder. I'm curious about something. You've often quoted your friend Cathy Seipp who said that she has values and therefore makes value judgments (I'm not sure I have that verbatim, but that's the gist). The woman who told you this has values concerning this issue and made a judgment of you based on those values. How is that different from Cathy Seipp expressing her judgments? Are you annoyed because you believe it was rude for this woman to express her judgment?

Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I understand now why you feel she crossed the line. When I told my cousin the vet, to whom I'm very close, that I wanted to get a dog, he told me that he adopts only rescue dogs and why. I respect his point of view, but at no time did he try to lecture me into adopting a dog his way. He gave him his opinion but let me make the choice without pressure. And he certainly didn't bring in back-up via email to lean on me. I agree that your vet shouldn't have copied the email, especially to someone who is a stranger to you. Even though it was about an animal and not a human, this still involved a medical matter and was therefore a violation of your privacy in my opinion.

As it happened I did adopt a rescue dog, but only because I judged that the dog and I would be right for each other.

I can't believe anyone would be that presumptuous. All bar one of my cats gave been rescues, but once my ex and I specifically wanted certain personality traits (a needy cuddle cat for her, basically) and bought a Tonkinese kitten. From a home breeder who did one litter at a time - hardly a 'puppy factory' - and I was very impressed when we visited at how well they were looked after. No pedigree but we didn't care about that.

Sometimes people have reasons for wanting a certain breed that aren't stupid. Good on you, Amy.

"This woman probably couldn't go out with you anyway, as busy as she must be getting the ignition lock replaced on her broom."

I did indeed, laugh out loud. Amy, I love you. You make me laugh.

1) Disagree with the first Anon's generalization that relationships with a 10 year age difference are automatically creepy. My boyfriend and I met when we were 21 and 30, my parents were 23 and 32, and grandparents were 19 and 28. In my parent's case, they married at 25/34 but didn't started having kids for another 6 years, giving them the chance to travel, develop their careers, and build a life as a couple before getting into raising kids. That might not have been an option for my dad had he married someone his own age. Not that he was deliberating seeking out a younger partner, but I wouldn't blame men for making this a criteria if they know they' won't be ready for fatherhood for awhile.

2) Anyone else find it funny that the admonishment came from a 24 year old? I can see a woman the LW's age getting all indignant, but this one was 18 just six years ago--does she really think she wasn't a person yet? If so then she's probably not ready to be dating someone 10 years older quite yet.

3) Many dating sites (or pretty much any method of gathering demographic data) have a box where you can check an age RANGE that you're interested, typically running 18-24, 25-29, 30-34. etc. So the fact that LW listed 18 as the bottom of his age range may just mean that he checked the "18-24" box, which he would have to if he wanted to indicate his openness to 24 year olds like, you know, the woman that messaged him. Doesn't necessarily mean that he's interested in dating teenagers.

4) Finally: unsolicited criticism of someone's profile is just rude, period. It's not like informing someone that you're not going to date them because they're fat, or because they talk about their pets too much--what's the point? Theyre not your friend; its not your obligation to bestow advice and improve their dating life. If the person in question really is a teenager obsessed creep,, then editting their profile isn't going to change that; and wouldn't you rather know up front? Or if you think they might be worth getting to know, then get to know them and then decide for yourself, and you can bring it up down the road when you're laughing about your early dating missteps. Otherwise just delete the message and move on.

"Theyre not your friend; its not your obligation to bestow advice and improve their dating life."

This was not even so much 'advice' as just couching insults in faux 'advice', which I guess helps her feel better about being rude to strangers .. 'I was just giving advice!', she can tell herself. Reminds me of an abusive ex-gf of mine, she liked to say "you have to be cruel to be kind!" while insulting people to their face ostensibly to 'help' them.

"Disagree with the first Anon's generalization that relationships with a 10 year age difference are automatically creepy"

Likewise, actually, my view is that if both members of a relationship are adults, then hey, it's none of my business - more power to them if they're happy that way, whether they're the same age or 50 years apart. Insulting people by calling it 'creepy' seems to me similar to insulting a mixed-race couple for being together .. it's discriminatory, i.e. one knows nothing about the individuals involved but criticizes some arbitrary comparatively superficial aspect.

Mike In Real Life:

You want to talk about a "dark cloud of cynicism" that has "completely overtaken their personalities?" Look in the mirror, dude

Shannon:

I didn't say 10 years, I said 2/3, which I still contest is creepy. Sorry if I conflated those. My parents were well over 10 years apart, but older.

I'm curious about those who think that much of an age difference is creepy...
most people seem to think Sir Patrick Stewart's marriage to Sunny Ozell is super cute, and they are so in love an' stuff...

and yet... 38 year age difference 73/35

but it's cute, 'cuz we think he's seems generally a standup kinda guy? Because being on your 3rd marriage doesn't mean much, anyway? Or because it's not much of anyone's damn business. Yeah. That.

At some point in time these things cease to matter. The original LW may intuitively get the idea that occasionally you meet people that are quite amazing even if they are not your age... so as long as they are legal age, it's only BTW them.

Power differential? What, between a well known star of stage and screen, and a singer and songwriter?