Hmm. Let's see. On the one hand, screaming desperation. On the other hand, beer and Doritos ... and Fig Newtons.

I don't know. Beer, Doritos, and screaming desperation? What's on the other hand? Count me in!

"men are more complicated than cats." True, but we're not very much more complicated than that.

"I'm thinking of throwing a party and inviting him, but I'll feel dumb if he doesn't come and I threw the party for nothing."

But she doesn't feel dumb for buying him groceries?

I confess to using home baked chocolate chip cookies as bait for men, but the home baking is the key.

You should also spread them around to several different friends to disguise your interest in "one guy".

Buying something specifically and taking it by just isn't the same. And if the cookies don't get you invited in to share the beer and Doritos on the first try, move on to another prospect., or several other prospects.

Maybe he has a gluten allergy and is conflicted by the fact that his neighbor keeps bringing him cookies he cant eat because he has to eat that gluten free store bought cookie cardboard garbage that doesn't taste anywhere near as good as a damn wheat cookie.

I'm just saying this as a hypothetical situation-it's not like I have a gluten allergy or anything.

Isab, don't feel bad, I did that too and similar tactics that helped my DH get over his shyness. ("Oh, hey, I made too much stew for our weekly club meeting's potluck, would you like some?" Works like a charm). Seriously this girl went too much too far too fast. She really should have slowed her roll after the first couple cookie-cues failed. (Not even going to touch the sudden uptick in "cute" facebook photos...like people will never see your timeline and figure out your deal). LW, give it a rest and move on, you have scared this guy off.

Invite him to have coffee with you, or to have lunch together. If he says yes, take it from there. If no, then you know.

I know, I'm like a voice in the wilderness here but this topic comes up so often that, just maybe, relying on non-verbal cues doesn't work for a lot of people. So speak what's on your mind.

I think she's done too much too soon, so she should dial it back a little. Be the butterfly, LW. Be the butterfly. He knows you like him, now flit off to another flower or something. Let him buy a net and see if he can catch you. No net, move on. Net, be the butterfly! They don't get caught the first time, you know.

And remember, as my granny used to say, "The unattainable is the most desirable."

Be unattainable for a while.

@Bellflower. I don't feel bad. I am married to the nicest man in the world, and have been for 32 years now.

Started baking cookies for friends who were ill, or just to take over for a treat or the holidays when I was 12 years old.

I still do it for my friends, and for the six Japanese guys who work for my husband, when I am in Japan. Japanese men love chocolate (and cookies)

I asked them which cookies they liked best, and it was a unanimous decision, chocolate chip.

I also believe that men in the hard sciences tend to be a little blind to female interest. There are some really worthwhile men, that require a little more work than what Amy thinks is appropriate.

My son is somewhat the same way. Lovely intelligent person, and has asked a few girls out, but needs to be pretty sure of someone's interest before he commits to a date.

Before he met me, my husband had been on two dates. One was a double date which ended in a car wreck (no injuries). The second was a friend of his sister who had no interests other than her Camero.

Four years at West Point had taught him nothing about how to talk to a woman.

If you want to bake your way into a low carb, gluten-free heart, these chocolate protein truffles should work:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/ask-the-protein-powder-chef-valentines-truffles.html?mcid=facenutrition04020514

Or google "Elana Amsterdam" for gf and often paleo cookies (chocolate chip, mocha, and other classics). Some of these can be made vegan for the muse with multiple allergies.

If you're buying your way in and sugar is no object, classic French macaroons are amazing and come in light floral or strong spice flavors.

"I also believe that men in the hard sciences tend to be a little blind to female interest."

I think you should establish some kind of friendship with these guys but damn from what I've seen they seem like a lot of work (initially).

(I think my heels are too big and my makeup too much for these guys anyways so they're a no go for me)

I guess it's like asking a girl out multiple times and finally having her say yes. Some guys are ok with that but damn again it seems like alot of work.

I will be trying Michelle! Thanks for the link.

"Beer, Doritos, and screaming desperation? What's on the other hand?"

Posted by: whistleDick at February 4, 2014 5:09 PM

The Brigham Young brochure on the war against masturbation.

'Welcome!

Well, LW, Amy's good advice is to move on, but I know how hard that can be. So you've got two choices. You could ask him out, although you've done virtually everything you can to encourage him to do so already. Or you could perform an impromptu striptease in his doorway. Trust me, that will get his attention.

23 is the time to make mistakes. Go with either. If possible, film it! I'll be the one saying "awww, that's cute"

"I guess it's like asking a girl out multiple times and finally having her say yes."

Ppen - once for me. Availability has been projected, and I've done my bit, put myself out there. If the answer is no, I won't come back.

Maybe is negotiable :)

Another possibility, maybe he already has a girlfriend. I know from personal experience that the only time women showed any interest in me was when I was involved with someone. Once I got married it seemed women came out of the woodwork to let me know they'd like to find my shoes under their bed the next morning (including one woman who turned me down for a date when I was single). Not sure if it's because I'm happy (and I think people respond positively to happy people), if it was the challenge, or if I'd already been "vetted" as acceptable because I was attached.

Whatever the reason LW, he's just not that into you. Move on.

So much speculation. Maybe he has celiac disease. Maybe he has a girlfriend. Maybe he's not into LW. There's an easy solution. LW should ask him! Even if it violates the rules of evolutionary psychology at least then she'll know.

By the way, whoever recommended "The Rosie Project"

I am reading it right now, and find it hysterical. The most entertaining book, I have picked up in months.

@Amy "It's not going to get you anywhere good."

But neither is wondering what is going on with no good way to find out. You've printed a lot of letters with a story similar to this one- she likes him, she thinks he likes her but he won't make a move- that I'm starting to think there are a lot of guys out there who aren't very good at reading non-verbal cues (I was one in my younger days). So why not try a verbal one? Saying "Hey, would you like to go for coffee?" just doesn't strike me as impulsive and desperate.

FFS LW, don't throw a party for nothing -- throw one because you want to throw a party. If he shows up great! If not, hey, at least you didn't spend a night alone, trying to decide if you should bait him with Oreos or Chips Ahoy.

Or invite him along on a large-group thing. "Hey, a bunch of us are going to try that new bar that opened up on the next block. You should come!"

Guys aren't that complicated. But guys and girls are different. What comes naturally to a man will seem crazy and convoluted to a woman. The reverse is also true.

Like others I say ask him out. If he says no then move on. Playing all the games to try and get him to ask you out doesn't appeal to many men and may push him farther away.

I respectfully disagree with you here. If you are over 40, the woman should never ask. If you are under 30 it has become an option. The culture in the US has changed, and not necessarily for the better. If you are outside the US then definitely the woman should never ask. You will come off as strangely forward and offensive.

"Here's a news flash for you: except for the polymaths in the group, hackers are generally kind of socially inept. If someone of any gender does something that violates my boundaries, I assume it was a misunderstanding."

From the top post on the Advice Goddess Blog this morning.

These are the same men who need a lot of encoragment to ask a woman out, and most of them are neither "pussies, gay, or uninterested". By the time they are old enough to understand dating, they are usually in their 40's.

If you want to catch these gems while you are both still young enough to produce children, you are going to have to put in a bit more effort.

"Dating"is a mid to late 20th century phenomena in the civilized world and bears almost no relationship to the ways that people in tribal cultures found wives and husbands. Men are not hard wired to know how to woo women, and a large percentage of them are spectacularly obtuse about female interest, because for the last twenty thousand years, they have mostly been marrying women that they already knew well since childhood, or took home forcibly as war trophies.

For a better understanding of marriage customs, I recommend this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-history-Reay-Tannahill/dp/0812825802/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391786604&sr=8-1&keywords=sex+in+history

Yeah there were the women they married............
and then there were the women they had on the side.

It's not as simple as men in before times met women via parents/family/community/pillaging and that it's a new invention of asking women out on dates. They still had the option of making their wants known to the woman via some direct manner. And it’s why we still have that stupid evolutionary throwback nowadays of women expecting the man to let her know more bluntly. And women letting the man know via some stupid non-direct mating ritual.
Look Isab, I’ve seen those gems you are talking about. I agree they are gems and fantastic guys.
But I have also seen them take years in asking a girl they actually like out or picking the first woman that is more direct with them.

But I have also seen them take years in asking a girl they actually like out or picking the first woman that is more direct with them.
Posted by: Ppen at February 7, 2014 10:08 AM

AGREED. Wasn't that what I just said? :-)

I have found that men raised without sisters tend to be particularly obtuse about women, and how they communicate interest.

But I dont think it's good advice on Amy's part to tell a woman to wait for years on the chance a guy might ask her out.

Those guys are GREAT but I think they need a certain type of woman.

(I think it's why I see so many Asian girls with them vs Latinas) (Culturally they are both taught two different things to expect from men when being asked out—and of course I’m generalizing)

I agree with you Ppen. You can flirt over a week or at most a month. If he isn't biting by then you need to move on. Pining away for your one true love, and then years later he finally gets it, is all movie stuff. It's not real life and it is not healthy.

You and Isab are also right about your more technical/autistic men. They really don't get other people. They can be wonderful people and great husbands, but the flirty indirect route they will never get.

What I was talking about was how US culture has changed. A number of you talked about home made cookies. LW is 23. She offered him a box of store bought cookies because she can't cook.

The whole bit with dropping off cookies is kinda cute, but that sort of thing really only works in 7th grade.

"...men are more complicated than cats."

Thank you! We are much more perceptive than women give us credit for.

I agree, asking him out is a bad idea. Most girls that age will have plenty of options; men instinctively know this. Even a walking refrigerator can get dates. Usually all they have to do is wear a dress, show a bit of leg or cleavage, flirt a bit, and be approachable, and plenty of men will show up. If a girl straight up asks us out, then we then we tend to think that there must be something wrong with her that is keeping other men away. Asking men out is just something that normal girls don't do, and deep down we know this.

"I have found that men raised without sisters tend to be particularly obtuse about women, and how they communicate interest."

So if they were raised with sisters, would that make them acute? They may be looking for their special angle.

Apparently the Chinese have the love thing down pat.

http://static.neatorama.com/images/2012-06/dont-treat-me-like-potato.jpg

"My angle, don't treat me like potato."

Isab, it's "Camaro".
Some women are so insensitive!

I feel for this letter-writer. I really do. I too, just a few years ago, not knowing any better, was the one with the net. And maybe at times, I still am.

I one time got asked out by a sales associate for Verizon only because he liked how I walked--which was usually in a hurry, with purpose. LW, fake it until you make it. Be very "busy" and find other things to do other than buy/bake cookies and plan dinner parties.

A good friend of mine noticed that the pickings are far superior in quality on sites like match dot com than at random bars and bought a Groupon for tennis lessons as a way to get herself out there.

"Women shouldn't ask men out.." What is this Amy, the 1950's? If they didn't, I wouldn't have two wonderful nephews - and a rather assertive sister-in-law. Not everyone is in a situation to go the "traditional" route.

And Ben, women I knew were asking men out back in the '80's, so your comment on women asking men out as something new is way outdated, at least here in Calif.

When a tactic isn't working, the wise thing to do is try another one. If a woman is interested in a man and he isn't catching on to the flirting, maybe she needs to be more direct. A lot of people are preoccupied, and a lot of men these days are gunshy about misreading signals and having their interest seen as harassment.

Actually employers DO hunt down people they are really interested in; not hiding under a bed but at other firms and universities, where the kind of quality people they are looking for can be found.

If a woman has found someone of (in her estimation) analogous quality in a potential mate, why not make some extra effort? Yes, he may turn out to be involved, gay, not interested, or not what she expected, but as you say to men all the time, you'll never know unless you take a chance.

And while it is not the norm, my sister-in-law is not the only woman I know whose assertiveness led to a successful relationship.