Wedding Duress
I've been living with my high-school sweetheart (from 20 years ago) for two blissful years. However, he's still married to his ex (though they've been separated for 10 years). Every dollar he has goes into the business he's building or child support, so I'm paying all the bills. I want to get married and start a family, but beyond his not being divorced, he doesn't want to marry again or have children...at this time. He says this could change in the future.
--Clock's Ticking
You know you can count on him to "put a ring on it" -- when he sets his beer down without a coaster on your vintage lacquered Donghia side table.
It actually isn't surprising that you've managed to maintain hope -- even as your loverman stops just short of tackling you at weddings to keep you from catching the bouquet. Brain imaging studies by anthropologist Helen Fisher and her colleagues find that our love for another person is not merely a feeling. In fact, as she put it in a talk, love is "a motivation system; it's a drive; it's part of the reward system of the brain."
Fisher further explains in her book "Why We Love": "When a reward is delayed, dopamine-producing cells in the brain increase their work, pumping out more of this natural stimulant to energize the brain, focus attention, and drive the pursuer to strive even harder to acquire a reward." (Welcome to the factory where "Only him!" gets made.)
In reality, there are probably a number of love-worthy aspiring Mr. Minivans out there. However, you're blind to this because getting your boyfriend to hubby up (and daddy up) has become a goal, energizing the human motivational system and all of its neurochemical enablers.
Psychologically, the more momentum you gain in pursuing something the less interest you have in exploring whether it even makes sense. Physiologically, surging dopamine and other neurochemicals basically become punks giving rational thought a beat-down so you can keep mindlessly chasing your goal.
To drag rational thought into the mix, pause the misty mental footage of this guy someday "putting a ring on it" and put some numbers on your chances -- Vegas bookie-style. Things to factor: How likely is he to come around on the marriage thing? Babies? And if there's a chance he'd agree to make some, how likely is it to happen before your ovaries put out the "Sorry, We're Closed" sign?
Express the odds in percentages -- as in, "He's X percent likely to do Y" -- basing your guesses on his prior behavior, values, etc. Lay out the percentages visually, by drawing a pie chart. This is helpful because we're bad at understanding odds expressed in abstractions -- vague ideas like "He might marry me!" We're better when the odds are represented in concrete ways -- ways we can pick up with one of our five senses. That pie chart, for example, is a picture of how likely it is that the only way you two will ever have a baby is if some sleepless new parent drops by and accidentally leaves one of their triplets on your couch.
Clock's ticking, indeed! If the LW is 20 years out of high school, it's already pretty late for her to be having her first child. Very soon it will be downright risky.
Unfortunately she's in a lose-lose situation. The odds of getting this guy to change his mind before it's too late are poor, but so are the odds of finding a new one (who's not a total loser) who's interested in having kids with a woman in her late thirties whom he barely knows.
Rex Little at December 26, 2017 6:40 PM
Come on, now, this situation could turn around at any moment.
Be patient. Cook him his favorite meals. Make sure you get to the gym frequently to keep yourself lithe and supple for his enjoyment. Put a little something extra into your lovemaking. And would it hurt you to give him some walking-around money while you're at it?
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at December 26, 2017 7:43 PM
The questions are simple: how MUCH do you want to get married and start a family? do you make enough money to support Mr. Blissful for the rest of your life (you may have to)? what do you mean by "blissful" (your definition will be very different from mine---mine is eight kids and a MUCH younger husband) is his business likely to become very successful? do you have contact with his child (this may be your only chance at parenting)?
That's my input.
My advice: grab the blissful for as long as you can. I'm 80 now and mine has lasted 30 years.
Elizabeth Falkner at December 27, 2017 5:22 AM
Dump him, YESTERDAY.
The guy is a moron. And so are you. A guy who is not divorced does not make child support payments.
On top of that this guy is either too stupid to get divorced, or he thinks he is saving money by not getting divorced and that makes him an even bigger moron as his wife can file anytime she wants and get an ever larger peice of the business he is building
lujlp at December 27, 2017 9:31 AM
Lujlp,
A man who is separated but not divorced can be court ordered to pay child support. (Go look it up).
A man who is separated but not divorced can voluntarily pay child support. Wouldn't you?
The wife may not be entitled to ANY of the business if it were started after they separated. (Go look it up.)
Have YOUR last two years been "blissful"? She may be living in Fairyland but it's a jungle out there and I'm the last one to call her names.
Elizabeth Falkner at December 27, 2017 10:46 AM
Liz, I got lots of stories where women divorced for years come back for a piece of what the guy built long after the divorce was settled and walk away with millions in new settlements, go look it up
lujlp at December 27, 2017 4:52 PM
this guy is either too stupid to get divorced, or he thinks he is saving money by not getting divorced
Or he doesn't ever want to marry again, and knows that he can't as long as he's not divorced. Think Odysseus lashing himself to the mast.
Rex Little at December 28, 2017 7:44 AM
Two syllables: Pre Nup.
Oooh...was there triggering?
I asked a friend of mine if he were married yet. His answer essentially lays out a (slightly biased) male take on the issue: "I haven't met a woman I like enough to lose half my stuff."
What are you asking him to do?
Lose half his business or the value thereof
Alimony
Pay a lawyer
Pay court costs
Deal with 6 months of divorce agony as the lawyers and his ex get to take pot shots at one another.
All so he can make himself just as vulnerable to a new woman. Yes, I know you think you are better than her. You would.
Statistics do not make it seem like a wise bet for him to make. Just saying.
FIDO at December 29, 2017 6:42 AM
Every dollar he has goes into the business he's building or child support, so I'm paying all the bills
This made me curious.
What bills are these she is paying?
Is it the rent she would be paying on an apartment that she would still be paying if she were single?
Is it the electricity and heat that she would still be paying if she were single?
Is it the art, coverlets, dishes and knick knacks that she would have bought anyway if she were single?
Is she buying him his clothes? Unless you are Gordon Gecko, HUGE haberdashery bills are not normally a big line item on the male budget, which is why an entire FLOOR of Macy's is women's clothing, but the corner behind luggage is devoted to men's clothes.
Unless she is paying college or a car, I don't see what she is paying beyond a couple hundred dollars a month in added groceries, which considering she gets a live in boyfriend who can program the oven clock, kill spiders and bring to show off to mom, is a pretty cheap price.
A kept man tends to be cheaper than a kept woman.
FIDO at December 29, 2017 6:52 AM
Ask for an accounting. Is the business growing commensurate with the money he's putting into it? One assumes that every dollar he has comes from the business and it's his full-time job - so if he's reinvesting everything but the child support into it, you should see some return on that investment.
Is the child support court-mandated and a fixed amount, or does he write a check every time the wife (not ex-wife) hits him up for money? You know, 'cause it's "for the kids."
If he were divorced and on his own, he'd still have those expenses, plus his own upkeep. Methinks he's using her. Perhaps unconsciously. He's found something comfortable and low-stress.
And comfortable ain't blissful. She's afraid of being on the market again, of being alone, of being rejected - of not finding a baby daddy until it's too late.
If he was her high school sweetheart 20 years ago, she's probably in her mid-thirties. Sweetheart, your child-bearing years come with an expiration date, his don't. He can afford to wait and find someone fertile later when the original children monkey is off his back. If children are what you want, you ain't gonna have 'em with him.
Get an accounting ... and a lawyer. You probably can't just kick him out without notice, so you'll need to protect yourself while this sorts out.
Conan the Grammarian at December 29, 2017 8:52 AM
Oh, and freeze a few eggs.
Conan the Grammarian at December 29, 2017 8:54 AM
Also keep this in mind, if you have a kid you'll be retirement age before they get their first pay college job
Have two or three and you'll be collecting social security before they finish high school
lujlp at December 29, 2017 11:56 AM
FIDO's the kind of dude who married the first woman who had sex with him so he thinks no women can be trusted. lol
Mary at December 30, 2017 6:32 PM
Presumably they are living in a bigger place that when she was single so the rent is higher as are the utilities. Bills can also include maintenance and insurance (health, car, renters). Medical and dental expenses.
You sound like you have a nice life with not a lpt of bills!
Nicolek at January 1, 2018 3:51 AM
Well, that is a rather simplistic and poorly considered, Mary.
Assuming you are an honest conversationalist:
According to her, if he loves her, he would lose half his shit and 5 of the last ten years of his life to his estranged wife, whom he probably hates. Just so he can marry LW and give her what she wants, a ring and kids.
Gee, that won't burn his britches at all.
An empathic person might be sympathetic to how huge a request that is.
What should she do if she loves him?
-Should she...enjoy half a loaf and give up that ring and that kid for someone she loves who loves being with her but who clearly isn't ready for another marriage? An Amy Alkon kind of deal. AMY seems happy.
-How about she reimburses him for his fiscal losses for the divorce? Too much? Half his losses?
-How about signing a pre nup?
Is she giving up anything besides a few extra bags of groceries for this man while asking a whole lot more from him? (This point is obviously null and void if she is raining gifts, clothes and computers on his greedy ass constantly)
We know how much a remarriage would be worth to him. What should it be worth to her to try to ameliorate his rather rational fiscal consequences of a divorce?
For her, it undercuts his argument rather handily, at least some of them. So he now has a 'shit or get off the pot' situation to face and she gets some clarity.
Does she want to possibly fix it or does she want the whole cake and fuck his issues? Is she in love with him or is she in love with that ring and that kid?
I am a man. I try to fix things. This is a possible fix.
You prefer name calling.
FIDO at January 2, 2018 1:03 PM
Presumably they are living in a bigger place that when she was single so the rent is higher as are the utilities. Bills can also include maintenance and insurance (health, car, renters). Medical and dental expenses.
That presumes a lot. How many bedrooms does a cohabiting couple need?
It is possible she is spending a lot on him. But that is 'facts not in evidence'. But what IS in evidence that a significant number of these bills would exist close to what she is paying now if she were still single.
She would pay rent with or without him
She would pay utilities with or without him.
The rest of these are (save Obamacare insurance) not a lot of money really. A couple of hundred dollars, which is far less than a man (and probably a woman) spends on regular dating.
Why do you feel the need to get personal? Have I spoken to you in that manner?
FIDO at January 2, 2018 1:10 PM
Frankly, if you actually believe a prenup means anything, FIDO, you deserve to be called all the bad names at her disposal.
Prenups are so pathetically useless. All the judge has to do is say that the prenup is unfair and it's gone.
"Well, I had one drink before I signed..." Prenup gone.
And lujlp is correct. It doesn't matter when the man builds his business. His ex can come back for a piece of it any time.
Patrick at January 2, 2018 4:23 PM
Frankly, if you actually believe a prenup means anything, FIDO, you deserve to be called all the bad names at her disposal.
Prenups are so pathetically useless. All the judge has to do is say that the prenup is unfair and it's gone.
"Well, I had one drink before I signed..." Prenup gone.
And lujlp is correct. It doesn't matter when the man builds his business. His ex can come back for a piece of it any time.
Patrick at January 2, 2018 4:23 PM
Patrick,
The point is less about how efficacious a pre nup is and more that she is demanding he take a very large fiscal hit.
If she wants to make him feel safer in a new marriage, she has options from paying for his divorce losses (he is supposed to value her so highly that he should gleefully give up half is shit for her but she shouldn't be asked the same?) to signing even a pathetic Californian pre nup.
A pre nup is a token gesture just to show willing. To be inclined to sacrifice to make that marriage happen.
FIDO at January 2, 2018 9:42 PM
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