Things That Go Bump In The Knight
I'm confused. Does treating women as equals mean not doing those things that would previously have been considered chivalrous, like opening doors and giving a woman your coat? What's now considered polite, and what's considered offensive?
--Bewildered
The response by some women these days to men's well-intentioned acts must tempt at least a few men to swing entirely in the other direction: "Let's see...I could open the car door for my date -- or start to drive off and let her throw herself across the hood and hang on."
To these women, chivalry is "benevolent sexism," affectionate but patronizing sexism -- a way of treating women that suggests they are in need of men's help and protection. It involves things like opening doors and offering to carry a heavy item for a female colleague and being the one who runs for the car in a downpour -- instead of handing the girlfriend the keys and announcing, "I'll just wait here under the awning!"
Research has found that benevolent sexism can be undermining to women -- even leading them to feel less competent at their job. However, complicating things a bit, new research by social psychologists Pelin Gul and Tom R. Kupfer finds that women -- including women with strong feminist beliefs -- are attracted to men with benevolently sexist attitudes and behaviors despite (!) finding these men "patronizing and undermining." The researchers theorize that what women are actually attracted to is the underlying signal of benevolently sexist behavior -- that "a man is willing to invest" (in them and any children they might have together).
Frankly, even I engage in benevolent, uh, something or other -- like by holding the door open for any person, male or female, coming up to an entrance behind me -- simply because it's nice for one human to look out for another. Or, as my mother would put it, it's genteel. Ultimately, your best bet is behaving as genteelly as you would if you had no idea about benevolent sexism. Most women will probably appreciate it -- even if a few of them say "Thank you...that's very nice of you!" in language more along the lines of "Screw off, you medieval turd!"
Depends on the person. Sorry but we are all individuals. I would make considerate your default, if she gets snarky because you hold a door, then smile and say, "I got this one, you can hold it for me next time"
NicoleK at January 30, 2019 3:00 AM
I saw a comment from a woman on another website on this subject. She said she didn't mind if a man in front of her held the door open for her, but she HATED it if a man ran up from behind to get the door for her.
Fayd at January 30, 2019 11:08 AM
This always reverts to doors. And most of those discussed are in public buildings and are, one way or another, assisted in opening by some mechanical or hydraulic means. So women can do it even if half the size of the guy offering to help.
But go to youtube and look for "cajun navy" "harvey rescue". Lots and lots of toxic masculinity and benevolent sexism there. We need to discuss such things in light of when it really makes a difference. Like when you need a quarter ton of grits and gravy to hoist a woman in a wheel chair onto the deck of a boat.
Richard Aubrey at January 31, 2019 4:58 AM
"Most women will probably appreciate it -- even if a few of them say 'Thank you...that's very nice of you!' in language more along the lines of "Screw off, you medieval turd!"
Do people really do this? I hold doors for everyone, male or female, and many people hold doors for me.
I think almost everyone sees holding doors as simply a pleasant courtesy that engenders a little bit of goodwill.
I've never had anyone take umbrage and holding of doors, or any of the sundry other modest courtesies that people render one another daily.
I'm as outraged by the cult of victimhood and offense as anyone else, but I think the chimera of the feminazi biting a guy's head off because he held the door for her is an urban legend.
Dennis at January 31, 2019 9:45 AM
First, I have never - EVER - witnessed a woman badmouth a guy who held the door for her. I certainly don't, and I've got strong feminist leanings.
I've held doors for plenty of guys, usually shrugging and saying, "I've come a long way, baby" (but ya gotta be pretty old to get THAT reference). The only shocking thing about that is how surprised a lot of those guys are. :(
Any woman (or man, for that matter) of quality would easily pass Sonny's Car Door Test. Go watch "A Bronx Tale" to see what I mean.
Taylor at February 1, 2019 12:58 PM
@Taylor
Because you're a woman. I've witnessed it a lot on college campuses and in university towns, and, by witnessed, I mean I've had a woman act like a rude child when I attempted to open a door for her. The best ones were the flipouts when it was obvious that we would otherwise have collided, but I guess that's part of feeling like a big girl to be able to push people around - kind of like a stubborn and belligerent farm animal.
Bewildered would do well to excise two things from his brain:
a) Don't spend any energy on trying to "treat people like equals". Just employ the Golden Rule and move on with your life. Bad people will act badly, and your hands will be clean, however they respond.
b) Following that, drop the chivalry hangup. It's just a stupid sex game dreamt up by French court harlots, anyway. You wouldn't like to be treated that way (as in having someone have to be obsequious to you because of your sex), so just be polite to all people, and, if the choice is between helping an old man with a door or a girl, help the old man.
El Verde Loco at February 2, 2019 10:59 AM
On date 3 or 4 with a particular lady, I opened and held the door to the restaurant. She let me know once we were seated that she did not appreciate that and I should not do that. When we left, an employee held the door -- no problem. At my car, I let her open her own door. And she let me have it for that -- opening the restaurant door was offensive...but what kind of jack-ass (I believe was her word) doesn't open the car door for a lady.
The Former Banker at February 3, 2019 11:01 AM
The Former Banker:
If I opened the restaurant door for a woman on a date and she gave me crap for it, I’d have got up, turned my back, and walked away forever without a word. Left her ass there alone.
You cannot put up with being treated like this. You CANNOT.
Thank God I am married 32 years and do not have to put up with bitches like this any more.
Chester White at February 3, 2019 1:35 PM
"the chimera of the feminazi biting a guy's head off because he held the door for her is an urban legend"
Really, do we need any higher standard of proof than "I didn't see it, therefore it didn't happen"?
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 4, 2019 1:54 PM
Let me stir the pot a bit.
The Horrible Liberal WaPo had an article on the experiences of biological women who got the 'snip and tuck' to make them sort of male.
Well, these former women discovered a lot of things about being a man.
One of the biggest is that the life of a woman is doors and ears being opened to the most inane details of their lives and seats being offered 'just because'.
And when they became men, suddenly doors were not being held at all, slamming in their faces. People did NOT just listen to them ramble on, men or women. They...had to...stand...on their own.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/?fbclid=IwAR2Y9ao5S3J43-YuQ8WYgNsa3VIrgc04sVflBj7Dks6209NAldu86rRObbc&noredirect=on&utm_term=.c2eba7ab74a5
Same thing with Norah Vincent, a lesbian who dressed up and lived as a man for a year.
It was horrible, lonely and difficult, in her description. She felt the lack immediately. Even as a dramatically unattractive woman, her life was warmer, easier and more welcoming.
Women do not detect the vast majority of 'benevolent sexism' in the same way a fish does not really detect water. Occasionally some bit is not ignorable and the lack is DISTINCTLY felt.
The problem is that Feminists both want the benevolent sexism...and want the right to bitch about the benevolent sexism. Most women have that touch of Feminism.
And Chivalry has obligations on the women as well. Chivalry isn't free. Bills are coming due.
FIDO at February 4, 2019 9:40 PM
The sci-fi Lucifer's Hammer is about an enormous comet going to smash into Earth. Takes place before and after. Great action.
It is said--either it's in the book or it's said about the book--feminism dies one millisecond after impact.
That's a global view. But the impact, so to speak, can be limited to one person in one place and still be devastating. Somebody would do well to bite tongue and hope previous statements never show up.
Richard Aubrey at February 5, 2019 9:59 AM
The sci-fi Lucifer's Hammer is about an enormous comet going to smash into Earth. Takes place before and after. Great action.
It is said--either it's in the book or it's said about the book--feminism dies one millisecond after impact.
That's a global view. But the impact, so to speak, can be limited to one person in one place and still be devastating. Somebody would do well to bite tongue and hope previous statements never show up.
Richard Aubrey at February 5, 2019 9:59 AM
Leave a comment