Maybe It Isn't "The Patriarchy" After All
An insightful admission from Vivian Gornick in a book I've been reading and rereading, Mistakes Were Made (But Not by Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts, by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson. I've screenshotted it below, with Tavris and Aronson's commentary preceding Gornick's:
Tanya Gold could learn a thing or two from Gornick.
Personally, I live alone because I like living alone, and because I think it's probably impossible or near-impossible to behave consistently lovingly to another human being if you're living under the same roof.
As I've written here before, in five years, I've never screamed or yelled at my boyfriend or said a mean word to him. Number one, he doesn't deserve it, and number two, you get the relationship you create.
Some woman at a cocktail party lectured me that if you don't live together, you don't experience - really hating the other person, "and that getting through that is the triumph of true love." I guess I looked shocked, because she laughed and said someday I'd "grow up" and see it her way. Sorry, is being "grown up" knowing what human nature is and living in total denial of it? If so, pass the PB&J.
Couples don't last because they act horribly to each other but in spite of it. Ideally, you're two against the world, not two people trying really hard to do each other in. You may have to make a pact with yourself and each other to always act lovingly, and it make take you some practice in restraint when you want to lash out, but over time, you'll get used to that way as a way of being instead of immediately extending tooth and fang and drawing blood. And it really does pay off.
One of the problems with feminism is that it gave women with paranoid-narcisstic or borderline personality problems a handy excuse to avoid facing their issues. By Gornick's own admission, everything that ever went wrong with any relationship in her adult life, particularly when it concerned men, was (in her own mind) someone else's fault. I suppose this can be a side effect of any civil rights movement, but feminism seems to have a particular problem with it. This is most likely due to its warping from its original principles to genderism. Like any race- or tribal-based movement, genderism encourages its members, particularly the ones who have "issues", to think of themselves as Morally Superior Beings who need not take any crap off of the little people from outside the tribe.
Actually, I think it's kind of remarkable that Gornick has come to this realization. Maybe a bit late, but better late than never. It takes a lot of self-insight to overcome the effects of a lifetime spent inside a morally self-justifying ideology. I have to give her props for that. In my experience, most people who fall into this trap never get out.
And yes, there are lots of men who have these same problems. The difference is, they don't have a powerful and well-connected political lobby encouraging and praising them for it.
Cousin Dave at January 8, 2008 6:59 AM
This:
is the stupidest load of shit I've ever read. If you've ever experienced true hatred, you know that it never goes away.
Love may come and love may go, but hate is forever.
brian at January 8, 2008 7:16 AM
Ugh. Some people just really take their philosophies too far. Be it feminism, religion, nudism, whatever they "believe" in becomes a carte blanche for their irrational behavior. I don't think this has as much to do with the philosophies per se, as much as it does with people being unwilling to question themselves and their beliefs once they have formed them. Ultimately I think certain types of people are going to seek some kind of "ism" to use to justify and rationalize how they are right and the rest of the world is wrong. In fact...I think that's part of the reason humans invented religion in the first place, but obviously, I am biased.
I actually just listened to the podcast at Point of Inquiry about this book, I think I may buy it.
Shinobi at January 8, 2008 8:07 AM
It's a great book. Ignore the reviewer on Amazon who says it's biased against Bush. It's not. For example, just opening to a page -- an incidental quote from a bit on Gore Vidal -- they quote Brokaw asking Gore Vidal, "Now let's talk about Carter...what is he doing with these Brazilian dictators pretending they are freedom-loving democratic leaders?" The authors use what they need to to get points across, and sometimes the examples are red, and sometimes they're blue.
Amy Alkon at January 8, 2008 8:28 AM
ultimately the love thing seems like a negotiation, and it sounds like you and your partner have negotiated pretty well, Amy. As long as you both are on the same page, there is no reason that you have to force anything, which obviously the party goer isn't aware of. It may even be quite outside her experience.
As for the isms... my observation of feminism, is that it is really afraid to be unequal. As if equality is it's only standing to exist. This goes counter to the reality of gender. Equality as individuals, equality before the law, these are must haves. The idea that we should be equally emotional? Talk the same amount? Be interested in all the same things? This is trying to force us as genders to be ALIKE rather than equal, but there are many people out there that see the ideas the same. I know several who just can't understand why some guys just won't talk about their feelings, even though they pester them about it relentlessly. "He's just not emotionally available." As if he should be some kind of surrogate girlfriend, inside a guys body.
The thing is, it's amazing how these little things build up. I've been berated for not cleaning the bathroom when it was my turn because I was replacing the waterpump in my ex-s car. I said I'd do it later, because I was elbow deep in grease. But to her it was clear what the priority should be, and it wasn't the all day job of replacing a waterpump in her dodge durango.
Sure we could show various stories of where we don't see eye to eye... but I find the fact that we don't is the most important thing. Once you agree that you don't look at situations the same way, then you can negotiate about how to look at the situation. But that goes counter to the equality idea of how everything is the same and interchangable.
We aren't interchangeable, and how boring would it be if we were?
SwissArmyD at January 8, 2008 9:25 AM
You just don't berate a man into doing things for you. I don't understand why that's so hard for so many women to comprehend.
Amy Alkon at January 8, 2008 10:32 AM
SwissArmyD, great comment. I've got to disagree with you, though, on today's feminism being afraid to be unequal. I see modern feminism as little more than an ideological pirate ship, raiding and grabbing whatever it can for its adherents. Equality is the absolute last thing they want.
Cousin Dave at January 8, 2008 11:40 AM
Yelling and screaming are not an ideal way to conduct a loving relationship, but read this.
Several months ago, my wife got on my case about an objectively very trivial matter. She is normally very strong and sensible, but that day she was extremely upset, far out of proportion to the subject. She yelled and screamed and in general made me angry. But I settled down enough to understand that something more was at issue. The true problem was that her father had died several months before and there were issues with that that she hadn't addressed. My ability to understand that, give her my love in spite of her behavior and to make her see the source of her anger brought us closer together. It also increased her and my understanding of her in relationship to her family, father, etc. and her emotional state at the time.
Would that have happened if we weren't living together? I doubt it. The point being, if you love someone, you experience everything with them. That is undeniably not always a bed of roses, but it is a far deeper relationship than one which has room for only the good, the upbeat, the peaceful.
huck finn at January 8, 2008 11:46 AM
I always have a hard time living with a girlfriend. It's mainly my fault. I'm a pain in the ass to live with and I know it. I have always been extremely independent and resist other people making descisions for me or trying to control me. At least that's the way I tend to see it. Actually, they probably aren't doing that. I'm a dinosaur, very traditional, conservative and unashamed of that, it's who I am. I've got to the point where I am extremely reluctant to let a girl move in becuase I know it's probably not going to work out. So, you just do you're best and keep trying till something works.
Bikerken at January 8, 2008 1:06 PM
Different things work for different couples. Amy and Gregg's setup obviously works for them, so I wouldn't dream of criticizing it. Marriage (to the specific woman who is my wife) works for me. If it were some other woman, I might have chosen otherwise.
Cousin Dave at January 8, 2008 2:57 PM
Yes, that learning to hate each other thing is steaming pile. I remarried after 12 years to my best friend. We have at times gotten angry at each other (less than half a dozen), but at no time in 5 years of association with her has there ever been the feeling of icy distance and loathing that is the calling card of hatred.
WolfmanMac at January 8, 2008 5:15 PM
Damn, Amy. You have a rare ability to confront man-woman issues --- straight and honest. That admission from Gornick blew me away.
Jeff at January 8, 2008 8:55 PM
i was single for a very long time because i was scared not to be. and no, i'm totally not normal, it wasn't rejection i was scared of, it was the idea that someone might actually like me, let alone love me. (i know that's surprising for some of you that someone does. it's a miracle. seriously.) that was a very scary thing. personally i think that's what a lot of people are scared of, particularly this feminist lady. maybe tanya gold too. who knows.
completely on a different topic, i took a course in feminist biblical theory once. didn't do very well. kind of pissed off the professor on a regular basis. it was fun. but the reason i pissed her off is because she wanted to keep holding on to what made her angry in the texts we were studying, and i wanted to move on and say yes, but what else can we get from it? and no one agreed with me. and no i'm not going on a "let's be religious" rant, i don't care. the point is that i think the biggest problem with feminism these days is that they insist on staying angry, because it makes them feel powerful, instead of actually looking for solutions to real problems and dealing with real people.
and i'm done now, that's way too much psychology to be posting on a blog of someone who's better at it than me.
kt at January 8, 2008 9:04 PM
Would that have happened if we weren't living together? I doubt it. The point being, if you love someone, you experience everything with them. That is undeniably not always a bed of roses, but it is a far deeper relationship than one which has room for only the good, the upbeat, the peaceful.
This is silly. You assume that you have to be on top of somebody to be in touch with their feelings? And you have to scream at somebody to be understood? Lucky me, my boyfriend and I seem to get each other without being on top of each other or acting hatefully to each other.
Amy Alkon at January 8, 2008 9:39 PM
> you get the relationship you create
I'm with Amy, as usual. What she describes could also fit my relationship with my current squeeze of 5 years. Well, alright, I may have spoken a cross word or two in five years. Still, it's a pity that many women have this Split-the-housework 50/50=Equality mentality. Honest ladies, how many guys clean the hard surfaces or sort the laundry to our specs? (And if you know any, please give me their phone number. Just kidding.) As mentioned by several commenters above, my guy does all sorts of other stuff for me. I come home from a day-long hike to find a roaring fire and well-tempered wine; I step out of the house to go to my Italian class and find that he's swept my car of snow. Women tend to overlook that kind of thing, just as men tend to overlook the dust and scum in the bathroom and the coffee grounds on the kitchen counter. If I am feeling a bit cranky, I try to ask myself what is more important, crumbs in the kitchen or my sweetheart's feelings? Amy nails it by saying you simply make a pact with yourself always to act lovingly. Well, nearly always.
Marie at January 9, 2008 1:09 AM
My boyfriend just spent five days, pretty much day and night, moving my site to a new server and working tirelessly to correct all the problems. Among other things. Appreciation doesn't begin to describe it.
Amy Alkon at January 9, 2008 3:40 AM
Amy is spot on, as usual. My bf and I have lived together for almost 5 years now, and he treats my daughters and I better than their father ever did. I chalk that up to the father's false sense of entitlement, never wanting to do a damned thing for himself, unless it involved his precious computer. BF is awesome, if somewhat strict, with my girls, but it's teaching them responsibility and selflessness, something their father knows nothing about. In any case, we're doing well, I think because we have the same goal in mind: a comfortable life together. It's not a cake walk, but it does have excellent moments more often than not. o_O
Flynne at January 9, 2008 6:07 AM
We were out last week with a few friends including two newly married couples. I was surprised to hear from both that things weren’t what they expected. My observation of them is that each individual had an expectation going into marriage that was different from the other partner and it wasn’t talked about. Now, instead of just figuring out whether marriage to each other is really what they want, they are nagging at each other (and to us in front of each other) which is just going to keep destroying whatever relationship they may still have. They all seem to have an understanding that a relationship is something to be endured and it will make them stronger in the end. The generally accepted concept that a relationship requires “hard work” is causing a lot of grief. The only work involved is the occasional restraint and reminding yourself that this is the person you love, and treating them accordingly!
PS: I seem to have access from work again. I guess they’ve decided you’re a serious, safe blog and not a porn site full of viruses. Yay! I was working on an explanation about how I was finally beginning to understand how US federal elections worked, and getting creative about how that was relevant to my job.
moreta at January 9, 2008 7:19 AM
Those women at that cocktail party seriously said that with a straight face? You've got to be kidding me. Guess that's why I'm not married.
I love living alone too (well, hopefully I soon will be again, my daughter's driving me nuts). I admitted long ago that I don't live well with others. I like things my way and I like to come and go as I please, do what I want when I want, eat or not eat when I want and what I want, watch what I want to watch on TV, etc.
Frankly, as that last paragraph probably made you guess, I'm a loner. I like to arrange when I do things with friends, etc. Am really thrown if someone drops by unexpectedly without calling first and do not encourage it. (A phone call's cool but not a visit without asking if you can, an emergency, I'll overlook but not just because you're bored.) Frankly, I do spend more time out of relationships than in and I like it that way. Mostly, live together or not, I find them more trouble than they're worth to me. That's just too much work to get laid.
Donna at January 9, 2008 9:41 AM
I just don't like living with other people besides my kids. Having other people around just gets on my nerves after awhile. Even if I have a "boyfriend" spend the night, sometimes it just bugs me that he is there the next day. I am a person who needs a lot of privacy. One night or two is good, but after three nights in a row, I get down right primitive....peeing all over my house.
Moreta,
Your post made me laugh. I had to do the same thing here so they would unblock the godless harlot. You should have read my memo to the system administrator. Beautiful stuff.
kg at January 9, 2008 9:52 AM
Aww, thanks so much guys - truly appreciate it!
Amy Alkon at January 9, 2008 10:00 AM
In response to the Gornick's comment about "The Patriarchy" ...
Feminists are always talking about how they are against patriarchy, or even "The Patriarchy." I find the latter term to be rather intriguing, and even amusing. It conjures up images of a group of elderly men in white robes who meet in secret locations to scheme how to benefit men by oppressing women. Such meetings would involve outlandish rituals. And edicts would be given out from some sort of Patriarchy Central to men around the world. Meanwhile, the Knights of the Patriarchal Order would ride around on horseback defending The Patriarchy, and celebrate their victories over root beer. And men would be issued Male Privileges™ cards as a bonus just for being male.
The above paragraph is from my Yahoo group's homepage. The group is called "The Patriarchy." You've heard about it before, and now there really is such a thing (at least a Yahoo group)!
Thomas Fullery at January 9, 2008 3:41 PM
Oops, it was Amy that used the term "The Patriarchy" in this case. ;)
Thomas Fullery at January 9, 2008 3:45 PM
I've always laughed about the conspiracy theory idea.
Amy Alkon at January 9, 2008 3:46 PM
She actually uses "patriarchal" in hers. I couldn't resist.
Amy Alkon at January 9, 2008 3:47 PM
I like living alone too, for the same reasons as Donna. I come and go as I please, and I have my privacy. I don't have any problems getting laid, I'm just happy when the guy goes home after so I can get some sleep. My regular guy does exactly that, and it's a good arrangement for both of us, because I think we're both loners. He is very considerate and does little things for me too, which I appreciate.
I was married before, and I lived with a few different guys, and all that winds up happening is that you fight about housework and money. With all that negative energy, the sex disappears, and then what's the point?
I think the uncertainty make you appreciate each other, and not take each other for granted.
Chrissy at January 9, 2008 4:29 PM
> Appreciation doesn't begin to describe it.
But a blowjob goes a long way to express it, am I right?
Marie at January 11, 2008 2:32 AM
Thomas Fullery,
Re: "The Patriarchy"
Haven't you ever been to a real Patriarchy Meeting? Its at the cave with the giant lazer.All the Root Beer you can drink, but you have to bring your own chips.
WolfmanMac at January 11, 2008 4:39 AM
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