The first duty of any organization is to perpetuate its own existence. This is easiest when you can activate a mytique of some kind in the minds of the populace. In Africa, not only the churches but government officials put themselves above the people and advocate public-health policies that are literally fatal. This should be no surprise; government policies killed more than 120 million people in the 20th century chasing one illusion or another.

I only hope that the ignorant won't kill the intelligent among us - as they have for millennia - before the bright people can get us off this rock.

Dude, this is the only "rock" there is. I dig Shatner too, and one day hope to command my own array of photon torpedoes and an adjacent bank of phasers, with Uhura in a miniskirt sitting right behind me. I'm just sayin'.

Also, speaking of AIDS in Africa, I happened across this old Ted lecture again today, and it has some nice moments:

http://tinyurl.com/2rlyok

...As does the woman's Wikipedia entry. Her dissertation was one of those "Well, whaddaya know!" -kinda moments that we like to think could happen to anybody... But probably happen only to people who make tenure at Chicago before thirty.

Just sayin'...isn't the Catholic church the most "fled" church around? People are voting with their feet.

I left the Catholic Church years ago because I didn't believe that I needed a priest as an intermediary between myself and God.

The whole decades (possibly centuries) long pedophilia ring just further justified my decisions. It's totally disgusting what took place. However, what do you expect when you tell priests they must not marry?

Maher is as intellectually dishonest as they come. He's a typical "blame America first" liberal. His argument that Catholics who believe Obama should have left his church years ago, should have left their own because of its systematic history of child abuse is poorly reasoned.

If Catholic priests stood up and glorified pedophila to their congregations, as "Pastor" Wright glorified his racist, vile "black liberation" philosophy, then Maher's comparison of the two would be legitimate.

Catholic Church doctrine does not condone the sexual abuse of children. The Catholic Church does not condone the abuse of children from the pulpit. "Pastor" Wright not only condoned the vilest forms of racism, anti-Semitism and hatred of America....He PREACHED it continuously from the pulpit in front of his huge, approving congregation.

Obama was a member of "Pastor" Wright's congreation for 20 years. Wright married him and his wife and baptized their children. Obama gave him 22.5k a couple of years ago.

Obama is either a vile racist like Wright, or has incredibly poor judgment. Either explanation will exclude him from the presidency and he will be crushed in the general election by McCain. "God Damn America", while quite understandable to the Bill Maher's of the world, is not going to sell well in Des Moines.

Just when I think that the Democrats couldn't do worse than Gore or Kerry, they wheel Obama out. The only thing the incompetent and corrupt Republicans have going for them is the idiocy of their adversaries.

First off, why does everyone insist on calling the Catholic priest problem "pedophilia". They weren't preying on pre-pubescent girls her.

No, they were going after boys. Mostly teen boys.

The Catholic church had allowed the seminary to become a haven for sexual predators.

As far as African preachers go, I'd be wary of claiming that they got their ideas from Rome. There is now a polio epidemic in Africa because the local Imams have told people that the polio vaccine is a trick from America to kill them.

And I'm not sure I'd be turning to Bill Maher for insightful commentary. He's gone bugfuck crazy over the past several years.

And here's the biggest difference between a Catholic who does not leave his church upon the discovery of predators at the pulpit, and one who does not leave his church when the flock cheers in response to the preacher's passionate cries of "God damn America": Most of the Catholic laity wanted those priests removed and punished, and were horrified that it was happening under their noses.

The Obamas have shown absolutely no desire to distance themselves from Wright and his beliefs on any grounds other than political expediency.

First off, why does everyone insist on calling the Catholic priest problem "pedophilia". They weren't preying on pre-pubescent girls her(e).

No, they were going after boys. Mostly teen boys.

pe·do·phil·i·a /ˌpidəˈfɪliə/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pee-duh-fil-ee-uh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun Psychiatry. sexual desire in an adult for a child.

Brian, a child is a child, regardless of gender. Just sayin'.

Otherwise, yes, I agree with you.

Flynne -

The point here is that it wasn't a pedophile scandal - the majority of the violated were teens (post pubescent). The media made it look like a pedophile scandal because they didn't want to say anything bad about homosexuals.

Just like every time a female teacher sleeps with one of her young charges, we're treated to a media that tells us that she's got mental problems. Again, not wanting to say anything bad about a protected class. (You'll note that when a straight man or a gay Republican does it, it is indicative of a moral or mental failing of the entire group. Gotta protect The Narrative™ at all costs)

No, what we have is a society that has decided that the procurement of sex is a civil right, propriety and social mores be damned.

And what we have as a common thread in both cases above is that a sub-class of people (young gay men, young women (both gay and straight)) that would prefer to satiate their desires pursued a profession that would put them in a position of power over young people.

That they would put their own prurient interests above the social mores about sexual liaison with the "underage" and the ethics of their respective professions is telling.

We have a word for people who put themselves in a position of authority for the purposes of self-aggrandizement: criminal.

I can't find the story now, but about six months ago there was (I think in either the LA Times or the SF Chronicle) a story of a reporter on the "religion beat" who after 20 years or so had to leave the Church and had lost his faith, largely because of the pedofilia.

Newsworthy because it was so rare of course.

> Maher is as intellectually
> dishonest as they come.

There's no such thing as "intellectual dishonesty." It's a fancy term used by people who are so timid and frustrated that they think calling someone a liar isn't impressive enough. It tries to mean something more than 'dishonest intellectual.' It sounds technical and edjumicated, but is isn't, it's just cowardly and wordy. The real smart people never waste your time with extra words.

(This comment has 76 words so far, and I hope you enjoyed every one of those little mothers.)

And if there were such a thing as "intellectual dishonesty," you'd probably find it in comedy (which is Bill Maher's business, after all). Comedians are in the business of giving you the feeling that you agree with someone who's saying something you never bothered to say out loud. Which doesn't mean their arguments would stand up to critical review... But a good laugh can be worth a stretched truth.

A few days ago comedian Tina Fey made a mild stink on the internet by pointing out that the Daily Show uses canned, or essentially canned, laughter. Jon Stewart may actually be a politically principled guy, but he makes his living by going for the smirk. If you took away his audience and just went after him in an argument in a room with one or two other people, you'd cut him to shreds. Same with Bill Maher. To criticize them for "poorly reasoned" arguments is beside the point. As Carlin notes, the job of court jester was called "foole". These guys aren't worth worrying about.

> No, they were going
> after boys

Well, pubescents anyway. However many digits that is.

(Usually 20! Har! That was funny! I too am a comedian!)

But seriously folks, the Catholic scandal isn't something I studied closely, but I remember reading that little girls suffered as much diddling as the boys did, but the boys provided better headlines in the Michael Jackson era. There's no reason the parents would have been less trusting with their daughters than with their sons.

Crid,

Touched a nerve, did I?

The Roman Catholic Church really messed up. The American bishops are ass-clowns. The church hierarchy are ball-less cowards. the Church still needs some Reformin'.

There's no such thing as "intellectual dishonesty." It's a fancy term used by people who are so timid and frustrated that they think calling someone a liar isn't impressive enough (crid).

'Intellectual dishonesty' refers not to dishonesty in reporting the facts, but dishonesty in interpretation and theory about the facts. It's a useful distinction, IMHO.

Well, you said something stupid, and I hate that

> It's a useful distinction

You guys are bullshitting, and we've covered this before. Using words like "ideas" and "interpretation and theory" --even in italics-- doesn't mean you're paying better attention than someone else. This is dorm-room pretension. The depth of the ditch is an "idea" like any other.

Bungled link, sorry. Ahem. We've covered this before:

http://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2007/04/i_thug_therefor_1.html

No crid, you obfuscating with your usual multiple-posts-to-say-one-thing style. Glad to know you've solved that sticky problem of philosophical Realism. Nice going, those SAT scores really helped you out, ace.

For those of us that haven't solved it yet, and who might see a difference in the kind of knowledge on needed to play Rugby as against that needed to do mathematics (you know that old-school distinction between Practical and Theoretical knowledge), the distinction is still useful.

I'm glad you worked it out. Wow. I just used italics for emphasis instead of pretension. Not bad, huh?

Wow...
Amy...
I think you are very funny...
I like the part where you want Obama to smite Rev. Wright with a crucifix (like a vampire movie) for saying "God-d*** America"...and Rev. Wright's suprising reverse racism of black-revolution theology ... (also part of black Muslim philosophy)...
hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm
speaking of 'good for appearances'...Obama smiting humble old black ministers who have a little too much fire and brimstone on their breath (& perhaps other things?)...but I know you were speaking in jest...& for effect.
That is a funny thought though.

I think that if "we" as the American public left...as you have chosen to do personally...
as an "Athiest"...you have chosen to 'leave GOD' because of the foolish & evil things that men (& women) choose to do freely....
there is proof...you have to go look for it yourself honey...what...are you going to believe someone else...science...they are always retracting their "proof" anyway...
then that really means there is nothing left to be affiliated with ...or to believe in... because we can find criminal & horrid behaviors in all institutions made by human-kind.

Glad u got your pink car back...
good job...
please take out some more frustration for me on that bastard Fred...he deserves it!
Bridget

> Not bad, huh?

Eh.

If we ever need insight into the "sticky problem of philosophical Realism", we'll give you a call! Meanwhile, Bill Maher goes on TV and makes jokes, which doesn't seem like a very big deal.

Just curious... Which is worse? intellectual dishonesty, or the old fashioned, regular kind?

As for why Catholics do not leave "the Church," the answer is: it ain't that simple.

"The Church" refers to the people who subscribe to the faith. The faith is essentially that set forth in the Apostalic Creed (and remember that in the Creed, catholic is small "c" - meaning universal - open to all).

The Church hierarchy is different. Popes come and Popes go. Papal doctrine changes - glacially slow, but it changes.

If you believe in the faith, your local Church is merely the building where you go to Mass and receive the Sacraments.

But what you are really doing is worshipping with other Church members - the Catholic community.

And yes, many card-carrying Catholics do switch parishes when the clergy are not to their liking (or involved in scandals of one type or another).

Leaving the Church, though, would mean leaving the faith, and for many of us, our ethnic background.

The Church - the people - are a group of people who acknowledge their humanity - and strive to learn Christian principles of forgiveness and mercy.

We try not to be holier than thou and try to avoid hypocrisy.

We try to forgive Church leaders who are hypocrites and betray other members of the Church - though frankly, it is often difficult to do so.

And Billy Joel had it right - generally, we would rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.

Want to stump a Catholic? Ask him or her, "are you a Christian?" The best answer I have ever heard to that one, "not yet, but I am trying."

We also have trouble with the "have you been saved" question. Well, technically, I think that getting saved was what Good Friday and Easter were all about, but none of us are all that damn confident about how our resumes will look when we apply to St. Peter's eternal employment agency.

And to put this in perspective: let's say hypothetically that you are Bill Maher and you really really really disagree with everything President Bush does - from the war in Iraq to the way he threw out the first pitch at the Nationals new ballpark (it was very high, way above the K-zone, for the record).

You don't have to move to Canada to prove the point.

And if as a Catholic you were subjected to a local priest who harangued against Jews and America in general, you might complain to the Bishop, and if that were unsuccessful, you would definitely go to Mass the next parish over so as to not subject yourself to something so plainly contrary to the faith.

We need about 100,000 Americans to go before a judge and publicly declare
that their middle names are their legal names for all public purposes.
And they should also declare themselves as supporters of the Hussein
for Imam--whoops I mean president coalition. Hussein will be the
first Muslim president. Free Burkhas for everybody! Hussein's first
act will be to replace the flag with the red crescent. Hussein has
always hated that other flag with every fiber of his being. Which is
why he won't pledge to it and won't wear a flag lapel pin. But Hussein
will proudly salute a flag representative of a non European religion!
When Hussein takes office every child will be required to attend a
Madras just as Hussein did when he was a child. It is so good to be
able to use a candidate's middle name and talk about his formative
years and his education. Because if you couldn't that would mean
that the candidate is ashamed of what he was and what he has become.
Welcome to a pork free world with no ham or pizza. You must not offer a pork chop
to Hussein. You must not put pork grease on your hands or your money
and certainly not hallowed ground. No pork anywhere!

Alice Jones, tinfoil hat wearing saucer nut recently came out of the closet and
revealed that she is a radical Muslim and a supporter of Hussein for
for president. Alice, who had previously grown famous for taking Klan money
for bringing up black people exclusively in conjunction with disease, violence,
and/or poverty, surprised everyone by endorsing a black candidate for president.

---coming to you from under the straight talk express.

****Hussein '08 !!!*****

Vox since you are such a devoted studier of your faith, tell me which ecumenical council restored the cathloic practice of praying to idols, I mean venerating icons - even though it breaks onr of the ten commandments?

Which venerated catholic saint wrote that 'God became man, so that men may become gods'?

And why is this catholic view condemed when expressed in the mormon church?

ANd from which council did the decree of papal infalibility come from?
My point in asking these questions?

Ta show that the VSAT MAJORITY of those who claim catholocism as their 'culture' no damn near nothing about what they claim to belive.

For example did you know that one council convined by the church determined that christ had no soul?

"Just like every time a female teacher sleeps with one of her young charges, we're treated to a media that tells us that she's got mental problems. Again, not wanting to say anything bad about a protected class. (You'll note that when a straight man or a gay Republican does it, it is indicative of a moral or mental failing of the entire group. Gotta protect The Narrative™ at all costs)"

I think the lack of condemnation for hot, young, blond teachers who sleep with their male students is not because women are a protected class. It's because the average man considers the 'victim' to be one lucky bastard.

Nearly 12 hrs and not one catholic can answer a single question about their 'sacred' faith?

Still nothing? Where did you go Vox?

3 and a half days now and not one catholic anywhere? Wassamatter Vox cant cut it when someone askes you about the faith you claim such allegence too?