Looking good and wearing makeup have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. Frankly, I prefer women without makeup. Who likes kissing wax lips? Gross...

No makeup does not mean unkempt. It means "au naturel", which is very attractive indeed.

It means "au naturel", which is very attractive indeed.

Not always
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/01_03/HuffmanBIG1701_468x592.jpg

Dear god, they live charmed lives over there...the things they spend time analyzing.

I've always hated intersectionality

"that women are nowhere near as looks-driven as men" is one of the small kindnesses the Universe has bestowed on me. I'm never too eager to stare at the shaving mirror for five minutes but I do have some women who've dug me.
Personally, I like a woman who's not heavy with the makeup. But even more important than that is the woman uses as much as *she* wishes. I'd rather be with a woman who's happy with her choices than one who's doing something to her face solely because she thinks it's what I want.

Amy, I think it depends a lot on the woman's figure. I'm not at all a fan of the waif look (or heroin chic), and I think that thin women look much better with longer hair. But I know of several well-endowed women, including my own wife, who look fantastic with short hair.

Oppressed Women and the Pet Eunuchs" Would be a good 60s band name.

"Of course, if these poor oppressed women and their pet eunuchs didn't spend their time in college in the women's studies ghetto, they might've learned that men and women are biologically and psychologically different;"

Back on topic: I think the key phrase in the exchange that Amy quoted is: "...and not everyone can afford their own unique style." This is a leftist rhetorical trick. The writer clearly means to associate individualism with capitalism, so as to smear both. Maintaining an individual identity has nothing whatsoever to do with how much money you have -- heck, young children manage to do it with no assets at all.

The leftist utopian dream requires wiping out all traces of individualism. Some leftists have decided that the wedge that they will use to accomplish this is women: the prevailing view is that women are more likely to be convinced that maintaining their own identity is nothing but a burden. Then, once women have been reduced to interchangable parts, they can use social pressure to force men to conform to the same standard. It's supremely ironic because the leftists, who deny biology any role whatsoever in determining human behavior, are here relying on a evolutionary psych tendency to support this theory.

But I think they've mis-read it. Even if one accepts the position that women are generally more likely to desire to conform to a group standard, I don't see a lot of women around who are eager to become mere increments in a faceless, shapeless bloc. And there's no chance in hell that women will ever stop competing against each other in the pursuit of men. And that's a good thing -- after all, if women are mere interchangable parts, then what is a man's motivation to commit to a relationship with a particular woman?

...the notion that women degrade themselves by doing anything at all to their appearance to appeal to men.

I like getting dressed up and made up! Not all the time, mind you, but when the occasion calls for it? Absodamnlutely! Weddings, parties, whatever. And honestly, I also like to wear a little mascara every day, whether I'm dressing up or not.

Hair, make up, clothes are all displays of wealth and not everyone can afford their own unique style, or have the time for it.

This? Utter bullshit. Everyone can afford to look like they care about themselves and how they look!

Anybody here prefer short hair on a woman, and why?

I love short hair. It's the exposure of the neck that kills me.

Sshort hair loks good on some people, not so much on others.

I never liked Portman with short hair, though she did look good bald in V for Vendetta.

The only short hair look I liked on her was on her SNL appernace where she did a rap opposite a Chris Parnell interview - and that was more about the attitude she was portraying

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1404/saturday-night-live-snl-digital-short-natalie-raps#s-p1-st-i1

Some gems from my officemate when I started making a point of dressing nicer at work.

1. "Wow you're looking nice these days. If I didn't know better I'd think you were cheating on your fiance."

2. (While I'm reapplying lipstick after lunch) "Ugh, I'm so glad I'm married. I used to do all that makeup stuff but now I don't have to worry about it because I'm in a stable relationship."

I really resent that she's trying to drag me back down to her level. And being so goddamned catty about it too. Two, I wonder how her husband feels about the newly liberated woman.

Personally I've found that having my own style is cheaper and less time consuming. By having a personal style I know exactly what I want/ like/ look good in and can pick up pieces wherever I find them. I've got a terribly cute hat I got at clearance at Target. Compared to the scattershot shopping I was doing before I'm buying a lot less. And with less articles of clothing to combine it takes less time to put together a cute outfit. So by the time my makeup is on and my hair is done it's about the same amount of time I was spending before.

For short hair on women,it varies. It works for some and may not for others. Many non-pixies are attractive with short hair. To be honest, I think I notice a woman's bearing more than looks.

Thin smaller women can get away with short hair. Heavy/round women with very short remind me chris Farley or Curly Howard.
Sinead O'Connor and Grace Jones were/are kind of hot bald or with short hair.

Can you imagine Rosie O'Donnell or Star Jones bald or with very short hair.

. . . but the prevailing thinking -- the one that's trickled into our culture like toxic sewage -- is the notion that women degrade themselves by doing anything at all to their appearance to appeal to men.

"The solution to pollution is dilution" -- in this case, I think that thought is held by only a tiny minority of people.

Here's a question for you guys: Anybody here prefer short hair on a woman, and why?

I have in the past. Short hair accentuates a woman's uniqueness. It like it to be more common so that women on chemotherapy would feel less stigmatized.

I've been buzzing my hair short for a couple years now and the practical benefits are amazing: I don't have to dry or comb my hair every morning when I get out of the shower, wind doesn't mess it up, shampoo lasts ten times as long and so on.

"think that thought is held by only a tiny minority of people.
Actually, it has seeped into our culture. That's the problem."

It has seeped BACK into our culture, just with a new stink. Remember that scene in Jane Eyre when she's in that horrible "school" and they take shears to her hair because it's (naturally) curly?

Same shit, different pot. Same Puritanism, same sanctimony.

Heres a question. How about guys with long hair?

Guys with long hair -- if its taken care of and on a good looking guy -- yummy!

"Heres a question. How about guys with long hair?"

YUCK!

Actually, it has seeped into our culture. That's the problem.

But it's a useful indicator for men. Typically women who believe that they're being degraded by appealing to men have all sorts of other issues as well.

Their desire to be unattractive is an expression of the fact that they are .. unattractive.

So I'd encourage women who feel this way to act on their convictions. Because the alternative, where such women play along to snare a guy, results in a lot of enmity and disappointment, for both men and women.

Guys with long hair -- if its taken care of and on a good looking guy -- yummy!

Ah, yeah, I second that. Just as long as it's NOT longer than mine! o.O

Short hair works mainly with thin girls with a particular face. Round faces or heart shape faces don't work as well.

That said, when I was in Ghana most of the little girls had very short cropped hair and most of them looked very cute.

"Make-up is anti-feminist!"

Feminazis, meet ayatollahs! Are the brainless bitches at feministing vaguely aware that right now at this very moment hordes of basiji militiamen are swarming the streets of Tehran beating the shit out of any women who aren't wearing the regulation black tents? In their warped, evil minds, any women who do anything to make themselves look good are enemies of Islam and agents of the Infidels, who must be punished. In the warped, evil minds of wymyn, any women who do anything to make themselves look good are enemies of Feminism and agents of the Patriarchy, who must be punished.

It all boils down to leveling the playing field. Remember Dolly Parton singing "please don't take my man, Jolene"? In a strict Islamic society, there are no Jolenes. Women who want to get ahead there don't have to do anything behind their black tents except pray to Allah and pop out some sons. Likewise, in the wymyn's dream world, the ugliest, dullest, laziest hags wouldn't have to do anything except fill their heads with women's studies courses & Marxist dialectic while loudly spouting the Correct position on every issue. No sharper, sexier, women would ever show them up for the envious losers that they are.

"Ugh, I'm so glad I'm married. I used to do all that makeup stuff but now I don't have to worry about it because I'm in a stable relationship."

Danger: Wil Robinson! I think that one of the important things to draw from all this is projection vs. imposition. [imperfect terms thought they be]

If you project a look you like it can have a powerful effect on the observer, because it's all you , and you know it. If you have been imposed with a look, it isn't you at all, and the observer can tell that too. The crux comes in trying to figure out who you are trying to please, and why.

For those that project an image of "I don't care what anyone thinks, I am no object for a man's desire." That is EXACTLY what they are saying, and how men react to them is exactly that as well. It's OK if nobody cares. But when you started out married to a hot tamale who could turn your head with a devilish wink, it's disocncerting when that same person eventually cuts their hair, gains 100#, and doesn't look at you anymore, much less wink. If neither of you care, s'ok. If only one of you care, what does that tell the other person?

so... Amy, about short hair? Is the glass half empty or half full? If she just cut all her hair so that she never needs to do anything to it, why is she doing that? Got babies that are constantly pulling on long hair and stuff? Shyeah, cut short and cute... Wants to change styles? more power to ya. Doesn't care about anything anymore? Red Flag.

I like long hair, if that's what she likes... and it's more fun for me to wash.

If you know a woman a long time, you may see her with numerous styles. Regardless if you like it or not, she is going to change...

Ashley Judd has always been my favorite short-cut wearing lady. I couldn't pull it off, but she could- http://www.super-hair.net/judd1.jpg

When I think of short hair cuts gone bad, I look no further than Keri Russell.

In strict Islamic societies there are plenty of Jolenes. The men there, it is reputed, are total horndogs who rape the maids and import prostitutes from the West for crazy orgies. At least, the ones who can afford to. According to the "Princess" book, anyhow. And to a wealthy Bangledeshi acquaintance of mine who was telling me about one he went to.

Not all the men, of course. Probably only a small minority. But there is plenty of decadence there as well.

I'm guessing women's preferences vary far more than men's for women's looks.

I don't know that the distinction is as great as it's often represented to be. If you've ever been around teenaged girls, and boys are present, it's apparent that their preferences are pretty consistent and very much based on appearance.

It's my impression that women, as they get older, are more willing to employ their version of the 'plain girl' strategy (i.e. marry a plain girl and she'll be grateful and loyal etc..). So they'll marry men that they don't find attractive in return for other benefits. And a lot of women seem to regard attractive men as too much of a risk.

But the adult women that I know still weight physical attraction pretty heavily when evaluating men. And the men they like most are those that you'd regard as conventionally handsome. They may be married to an unattractive man, but they still prefer an attractive one.

I'm no waif or pixie by a long shot (5' 8" and built like a field hockey player), but I get only compliments on my short hair. That's because it suits my oval/oblong face shape and, more importantly, it suits the texture of my hair. I have fine hair and if I were to let it get to shoulder-length, the weight of it would simply pull out any existing volume or natural wave. It would end up looking very limp, flat, and worst of all, FRUMPY. No amount of product or layering helps once it gets to a certain length, and I hate the look of perms. So I've gone with short, tousled and sun-streaked for more than a decade.

Most men I know like long hair, but I've known a few (including my Dad) who've had a real thing for short hair on women. I just think that more women should pay attention to their face shape and hair type, and act accordingly (with the help of a competent stylist). Stop fighting nature and start working with it. I see way too many hair victims walking the streets of DC on a daily basis.

Actually, it has seeped into our culture. That's the problem.

I'm skeptical, but I realize that we each only have a small window into our culture because we don't actually interact with that many people each day. My perception is that the vast majority of unmarried heterosexual women are interested in attracting a mate. Teenagers flirt, and so on.

Sends a message of self-confidence -- to me, anyway.

I feel the same way about women with short hair.

I had an interesting conversation about men with long hair with a long-haired male friend. When I was growing up, none of my friends' dads had long hair. Because of that I instinctively interpret long hair in males as rejection of authority, but intellectually I realize that this is out of date. It might have been true in the 1960s but by now millions of kids have grown up with dads with long hair and so it's just what they perceive to be normal. My friend grew long hair so he could donate to Locks Of Love.

I have very dark hip length hair and get compliments on it all the time. When I was a young teen I would have complete strangers, almost all elderly, but of both sexes, come and pet and touch my hair. I found it creepy but I understand that a lot of older people miss when women had longer hair.

Mostly I keep it very long because I'm lazy. I take showers at night so I don't have to dry it, I don't style it at all for day to day things since it's naturally straight with a slight wave. I don't have to regularly go to get it trimed or styled, so overall it saves me time, and my husband loves it. Plus I can do some fantastic updos or braiding when the event calls for it.

When I wear makeup I wear mineral makeup, very sheer and light. I honestly do wear it to make myself look better, even skin tone, darken lashes, maybe something slightly sparkly or colorful on the eye lids, and why not? It's not the man-factory forcing me too, and my husband doesn't seem to care either way. Plus a lot of foundation/mineral powder has sun protection in it, something I need with my very fair skin.

Re: Classism. In my experience, woman with LESS money and means spend more time making themselves look good. Not more money, just effort. Shiny hair, french tips, heels, perfume...maybe it's just because I now live in a part of the country that considers themselves "the end of the south".

"but I understand that a lot of older people miss when women had longer hair."

I dont miss those times. Lenght does not equal quality. Reminds me of those Christians homes where heterosexual old men have the final say on a womans fashion.

Unless you have great hair please keep it a reasonable lenght. Unless you got Kim Kardashian hair, or a fantastic Tyra Banks/Beyonce weave dont bother showing it off because you think lenght equals beauty. Otherwise me and my friends will snicker behind your back. Trust me we will do it. I'm very catty when it comes to hair.

"woman with LESS money and means spend more time making themselves look good. Shiny hair, french tips, heels, perfume..."

While I'm sure you meant this in the nicest way, I couldn't help but conjure up mental images of Kirsten Dunst's character's mom and her mom's friend in Drop Dead Gorgeous.

I just spend a weekend in the deep woods of Maine white water rafting (FUCKING AWESOME). After playing hard all day I showered, put on some make up and some nice perfume...just to walk across a parking lot to eat some steak with D. He appreciates it and my confidence level skyrockets when I put on a little make up.

In order to save money I've been buying a lot more stuff at the drug store on sale (as opposed to expensive beauty products). I'm having a lot of great luck. My budget is happier and I still look good. No excuses.

All the talk about how make up makes you a subservient conformist is b.s - make up is FUN! Perfume is fun! Soft fabrics and supportive bras and lacy panties and brightly colored nails and glitzy accessories and scarves are FUN FUN FUN! I love being a woman :-) Men can't really change up their looks w/o people thinking they're trannies. We can enlist a full range of styles and makes the "Do" pages of Glamor Magazine.

I don't remember those days, but there's nothing more depressing than when they dig up one of those extremist Mormon branches and all the woman have those handmade clothes and butt length ratty mouse brown hair. I think the reason that it works for me is because my hair is almost black, shiny and soft. I also hate the look of really long blonde hair, but really bleached and dried, with dark hair underneath, blown or straight ironed half to bits.

"But it's a useful indicator for men. Typically women who believe that they're being degraded by appealing to men have all sorts of other issues as well."

Sexphobes (genophobes?) don't get better with age.

"I'm skeptical, but I realize that we each only have a small window into our culture because we don't actually interact with that many people each day. "

You're sceptical that there has always been a negative attitude present in the culture, Pseudonym? I'm sceptical that anyone could be that sheltered :) Lucky you if you have only ever lived around healthy people with helathy attitudres towards sex and sexuality.

Random thoughts brought on by various comments:
My husband prefers long hair... and by "long," I mean somewhere between the shoulders and mid-back. You have to have specific features to look hot with short hair, and I don't have them.
The only woman over 22 that I've ever known with waist-length hair that actually looked good was a stripper named Linda. Long, thick, straight, black, shiney hair.
Stacy mentioned women with less money spending less time on appearance... Personally, when I have more money, I probably spend less time day-to-day, but that's because I'm getting my eyelashes tinted, monthly facials, spray tan, eyebrow waxing, bi-weekly mani/pedi, maybe an occasional peel... Getting out the door is faster, but I spend just as much time in the end.

I can imagine Gretchen coming home one day after a hard days work, summoning her D, and saying,
'D, please take off my dress. Now take off my shoes. Oh, and quickly, please take off my garters, stockings, bra and panties. And if I catch you wearing my things again, you are outta here!'

Sorry, couldn't resist after reading the FUN FUN FUN soliloquy.

Stacy, I'm glad you understand :)

Haha, Gretchen. I didn't mean it badly. Just compared to how relaxed we all were when I lived in Seattle, most people seem almost overdressed around here.

I am one of the women who dont bother with make-up, heels, dresses etc. AT THIS TIME. I love dressing up when an event needs it, and there was many times in the past that I would not leave the house without my hair and makeup done even if it was just a run to a convenience store. I just dont bother right now.

However I am not miffed, snotty, snarky or upset when I dont turn heads or have men fall over their feet to flirt with me. Nor do I get miffed, snotty, snarky or upset when the men drool over the women who do take the time to bother. It is just at this time I do not want to flirt/be flirted with, couple, do anony-sex or have a relationship. I tell you truly though, when I am ready to dive into the dating pool I damn sure will take the time and effort to gussy up and continue in such way as each date requires and event. It makes me feel more vibrant and confident and pleases the man. Win-win.

I get so tired of those femi's getting their panties wadded up about looking good. Obviously they have never done it for the right reasons, only to 'degrade themselves to please the oppressive patriarchs' hahahaha. There is many more worthy items to get such a righteous rage worked up for.

As regards hair length I am someone who has had hair so short it could not be pulled, and hair that went down to almost my hips. Young and thin the short looked best, now middleaged and plump the long looks good. right now at chin-length and I miss my hair. Growing it out again, until I need a change and chop-chop then repeat!

'degrade themselves to please the oppressive patriarchs'

You'll usually make money if you bet that a woman that uses that phrase is a bull dyke.

And she doesn't get any action from the ladies either.

"Actually, it has seeped into our culture. That's the problem."

Are we living in the same culture? Pick up any women's magazine/tabloid at the grocery store or turn on the TV and it's all about appearances: clothes, hair, diet, exercise, makeup. I was under the impression that this was a better indicator of our culture than extremist feminist blogs.

And I'm a fan of looking your best, but you can also take it to an extreme. At the beginning of my freshmen year of college, I pretty much wouldn't leave the dorm unless my hair was blowdried and I was wearing makeup and looked put-together. Sometimes I'd skip class just because I didn't have enough time to get ready. Instead of stopping by the diner after a workout, I'd rush back to my dorm, shower, blowdry my hair, apply makeup, and change into a new outfit, just for a 5 minute walk to the diner. As you can imagine, this was really time consuming. Eventually I lightened up and realized that anyway I really cared about impressing would probably get a chance to see me at my best, and it just wasn't worth the time and energy to look good ALL the time.

I've gotten about 20 e-mail in the past few months from guys asking me how to TELL a woman they want to have sex with her.

Well, how do you? I mean, is it as simple as going from "Hi, can I buy you a drink?" to "How about we go back to my place and get horizontal?"

This is information I could make use of!

I've gotten about 20 e-mail in the past few months from guys asking me how to TELL a woman they want to have sex with her.

I guess they could always ask if she's interested in hiking the Appalachian Trail...

Brian that was very funny. Dont forget that after they say something like that they whine about shallow people not valuing the inner beauty for a relationship and then roll on into some version of wa wa wa I dont get none.

Snort. It is always the other person who has a problem, never them.

Snort. It is always the other person who has a problem, never them.

Baby, I got problems. I just don't know what to call them. So I call them Fred and Harvey. They're invisible. Kind of like evil Snuffleupaguses.

I get cracks when I wear a skirt or dress of any kind. It drives me crazy. My sister lives in chinos and her work boots, niece lives in low rise jeans and spandex T-shirts. If you're going out to dinner what's the harm in a simple dress or skirt? 'No one else is wearing a dress, you'll look foolish' 'You're overdressed'. That and '*I* don't wear make-up!' with an upturned nose. The shocker for me was to wear black to a funeral and be haughtily told 'We don't do that anymore.' This is New England, might be different elsewhere.

There really is very little tolerance for anyone who does not dress exactly as everyone else.

> the prevailing thinking -- the one
> that's trickled into our culture
> like toxic sewage -- is the notion
> that women degrade themselves by
> doing anything at all to their
> appearance to appeal to men.

Well, as trickling toxins go, this ain't that bad. It's not that popular an idea. It's the kind of stupidity that a number of people might drift into for a short time, and then grow out of.

And it's kind of self-deselecting... A woman who thinks that way is probably not going to be a clear-minded & spirited animal in her own right, nor is she likely to attract and make babies with the kind of plainly masculine man who will help her raise dynamic, alert children. It's like the old Sagan line about a sexless priesthood.

If women want to live lives wherein they ignore these forces in the hearts of their mates, then bully for them... We'll see how it all works out for their families.

Actually, many women don't realize how much this thinking affects theirs. I look for it -- and it's pervasive. Maybe women don't state it in so many words, but it's there in the notion that men are shallow for caring about a woman's looks, and in the way women look when you see them with greasy hair and big man's pants...all the while wondering why they can't get a boyfriend.

Ehh... Just can't worry about it too much. For everyone I see who is, by golly, just not even trying to be attractive, I see 10%-25% more who are trying too hard, or too clumsily, or too over-the-top clumsily... As if to express resentment at having to bother.

This may be an L.A. thing, maybe people here think pandering is what life is all about... Oh... So you like red lips, huh? We'll how 'bout THESE?!?!?!

(blinded) Arrrrghhhhhhh....!

This matter sits right next to our urge to pair and mate, and soaks up a lot of that hormonal radiation. There are a lot of cultural forces that can warp and derail that process, and people are always eager to absorb and express a handsome stupidity, but I still think got bigger fish to fry.

Did I ever talk about that one Christmas party? Yep...

It's not just an L.A. thing, and it's this sort of thing that's the problem in relationships -- from a quote posted by Elle of a remark by her co-worker:

2. (While I'm reapplying lipstick after lunch) "Ugh, I'm so glad I'm married. I used to do all that makeup stuff but now I don't have to worry about it because I'm in a stable relationship."

If Gregg comes over or if we go out, I make sure I look good and smell good. Men like that.

crella: "niece lives in low rise jeans and spandex T-shirts."

Yeah, and she probably thinks (tell me if I'm wrong) that she looks hot. She doesn't realize that the spandex T emphasizes her stomach, and the low rise jeans make her legs look stumpy. There's this young lady who works where I work, in a department down the hall. She has this hideous fake tan that makes her face look like a photo negative (you know what I mean, the lips are almost white compared to the surrounding skin). None of her tops fit right, and her ultra-low-rise jeans cut her butt in half and take about six inches off of her legs. I can't figure out if it's supposed to be slut chic, or if she's trying to be ironic, or if it's just an honest effort by someone who doesn't know what looks good on her.

As a mom of 2 teenage girls, I applaud that they dress to look nice, not slutty or crass. They both have friends who look like they've just stepped out of Hustler, and other friends who dress as conservatively, I guess, as my two do. They don't like baring their bellies, or wearing short shorts, or those mini skirts that are 2 minutes to midnight. Their step-cousins are Brazilian, and man! for a couple of young, ah, ladies (?) they show an awful lot of skin. And maybe it's their culture, or maybe it's an attention-getting ploy, but I think they're overdoing it. Even with the makeup. My girls might wear a little eyeshadow and mascara, and we go to get our nails and hair done maybe once every couple of months, but it's not a necessity for my 2 like it is for their cousins. (And crella, I don't get what you mean by "we don't wear [black] anymore" at funerals. We still do here in CT. Perhaps not all black, but still, something black, be it a shirt or skirt or dress. Who says we don't do that anymore? o.O )

You're sceptical that there has always been a negative attitude present in the culture, Pseudonym?

No, I'm skeptical that the majority of women believe that using makeup is degrading.

I can fully agree that some self-appointed cultural elite believe so, but I don't think the majority cares about them as much as they'd like to think.

the notion that men are shallow for caring about a woman's looks,

If it's *all* they care about, then yes, I'd call that shallow, just as I'd call shallow the women who *only* care about the size of a man's bankroll.

But those types usually end up with each other anyway.

"Actually, what men seem to prefer isn't women without makeup, but women who don't look garishly made up."

Yup. Average or poor make-up is generally less preferable than no make-up on an average-or-better looking woman ... but even an average-looking woman who is really skillfully made up can be transformed into looking just incredible. Especially if the "illusion" is "convincing" - i.e. if it doesn't feel like you're "looking at make-up".

Here's a question for you guys: Anybody here prefer short hair on a woman, and why?

Ugh, no, not at all. I'm old-fashioned in that regard: Men should have short hair, women should have long hair. It is a very rare exception when short hair actually suits a woman (as you say 'those with pixieish faces') - to *all* other women, sorry, it looks *much* worse than long hair - even on Natalie Portman. I get the feeling (straight) women who wear their hair short are usually just trying to show the world how "non-conformist" they are, or have been sold a raw deal by society claiming it looks good or shows their independence or whatever.