To me this speaks of larger issues.
The first is the somewhat to widely held belief (forced belief, imho) that we are all the same, all equal. Of course the reality is men and women are different. Women bare the burden of pregnancy that men do not. It means women deserve considerably more power in the pregnancy scenario. Unfortunately some -- both men and women -- will use power far too selfishly and without sufficient regard for others. Subterfuge to achieve pregnancy is one appalling example. I don't know that a man can really do anything about it other than wearing a condom or simply hoping for the best. And I won't hold my breath waiting for a PSA that speaks to pregnancy by deception.

The second is the victim mentality. This speaks to why you will not see the reverse type PSA commercial. It simply doesn't fit most of the mindset of those in charge of putting media content out to the masses. It is this same mindset (aided by the media's inculcation) that fosters slanted environments. It's an environment that allows special interest groups to pass special legislation (or at least guide departmental policy). Once that slanted environment is entrenched, a government official taking a public stand contrary to it is very unlikely. Specifically, the victim status of females in this area is entrenched....and a PSA conspicuously contrary to that is very unlikely even if warranted.
The politics of deception caused pregnancy?

Anyone here ever watch the Brit comedy Coupling?

There was an episode where Steve played by Jack Davenport of Pirates of the Carribean asked his girlfreid what they were doing about birth control. She says not to worry about it and he says "OK".

A little later in the episode they are at a fertility clinic and the doctor asks them how long they've been trying to get get pregnant.

Steve says "Well, we havent really be trying"

And his girlfried says "Six months" causing him to choke on his drink

And here is a classic example of exactly that, happening right now:
http://blogs.news.com.au/bossy/index.php/news/comments/she_tricked_me_to_get_pregnant_now_shes_run_off/

I don't have a problem with an ad warning men that there are women who will try to trap them into a pregnancy. Obviously we all know that happens. Unfortunately there are men who don't like to wear condoms, especially young men.I've read many articles that talk about high rates of young men that hate wearing a condom and will not wear one if their partner agrees. I would hope that this ad is addressing the fact that sex without protection could lead to STD's. It should be a warning to both sexes, but its the man who wears the condom, not the woman. Young girls and women having sex need to understand the dangers of sleeping with a man unprotected because some STD's are for life.

I have three words for men who hate wearing condoms: Too fucking bad.

I agree patrick, ofcourse I would add dont circumcise your children and perhaps they wont hate the lack of sensation as much

I differ from some people who posted here in the past because I view birth control as everybody's problem. Yes, women have the babies. But if he doesn't, then he needs to worry about BC (birth control). Or not do it with her.

This isn't about women having kids w/o proper partners. This isn't about duping anyone into having a kid when they don't want one. Take some responsibility for your body parts, b/c it takes two kinds of parts to make a baby. Just 'cuz the baby grows in the woman doesn't mean the guy has no part in the process.

This is also not about the ethics of the laws behind men funding children they didn't want (I think a few folks here call opting out of child support as "an abortion for men" - since women can abort, which is a post-fucking/post-conception option and men don't have that option.). I agree there needs to be more equality in options available for people after they already made a baby. But overall:

Fellow Girlfriends of Earth: if you don't want a baby go on the pill, the patch, get a tubal ligation, remove your ovaries, get an implant. It's your problem.

Dudes: wear rubbers. Get a vasectomy. It's your problem.

If a woman "dupes you" into having a kid you are a fucking idiot (like the character from Coupling. Get a clue, dumbass.), as there are few cases presented on this site where the guy was actually vigilant and the woman was a socio-pathic nut job (and he couldn't tell this?). Handle the rubber yourself. Maybe it's not quite an aphrodisiac but ask about abortion up front. If she says she'd have the kid no matter what don't bang her.

Both men AND women lie. People can be unscrupulous and downright awful when they want something badly. They disregard you in ways that blow your mind. And you're banging that person - makes you feel like shit, ja? Which is why you need to manage BC on your own.

My fiance has never managed the BC. It's not a big deal to me b/c I'd be on the pill regardless, but if I were a dude I'd be unlikely to relinquish that control. Esp. since it's easy to forget to take a pill or get drunk and throw it up at 3 AM (for the younger crowd...).

"I don't have a problem with an ad warning men that there are women who will try to trap them into a pregnancy.

These ads don't exist."

How about an ad that teaches young men that having sex sometimes results in creating a child - a child they don't want - and that the best way to avoid this is to manage birth control?

Unscrupulous assholes exist within the ranks of both sexes.

When we learned sex ed in school we learned where babies and STDs come from and the best to to prevent them.

"A public service ad aimed at young women features a manipulative teenage boy pressuring his girlfriend to prove her love by having risky sex..."

Just noting the ad seems to be aimed at teenagers. A group not known for thinking about consequences.

Which makes the lying-broads-stealing-your-precious-seed scenario a (possibly) slightly less relevant issue.

Too F*cking Bad, Use Condoms doesn't address the issue. Most of these incidents occur within a relationship. So there's a long standing pattern of deception involved.

I don't think that our society is ever going to hold women to the same expectation of responsibility as men for the simple reason that women generally aren't as rational as men and often aren't as capable of ethical reasoning. That's not PC to acknowledge but it's evident from everyday experience.

The best way to address this issue is probably to point out the potential harm to the woman - e.g. that he probably won't stick around and support her.

A former roommate of mine was so desperate to have a kid that she stole sperm from two different guys, by fishing the condom out of the trash immediately after coitus. She told me this herself, and later I corroborated the story thru two other people, including one of her exes.

Anyone remember the PJ Harvey Song, "Hello, Billy"?

I'm going with the stance of your body --> your baby --> your fault. If the woman fails to take her birth control pills correctly, then it's her fault. If the man takes her word that she's on birth control when she really isn't, then it's his fault. If he doesn't wear a condom, then it's his fault. And if she doesn't insist on him wearing a condom (and have a ready supply available, because that's 100% the woman's responsibility as well) then it's her fault. It takes two willing (or stupid) people to have a baby, and either one has complete ability to step on the breaks, either by insisting on wearing a condom or just NOT HAVING SEX if there's any doubt.

"I don't have a problem with an ad warning men that there are women who will try to trap them into a pregnancy.

Amy: These ads don't exist."

No, but that guy Tom Leykis and his ilk sure are talking about it when given the chance.

The message is out there, but it is not spread by the same people who run Planned Parenthood or your local public school. The latter simply don't give a shit about young men enough to spend time reaching out to them, leaving that segment to be addressed by commercial interests who combine their political appeal with money-making commercial activity.

Just as you cannot legislate morality, neither can you legislate PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. But there are so many irresponsible people out there who already have children, I'm thinking maybe the whole "Personal Responsibility" concept should be taught in schools. Make it mandatory. But nah, that would cost too much money! And even if the money were found (or taxed out of us, whatever), the government would want to be in charge, of course, and they'd fuck it up royally anyway.

What was I thinking?

o.O

> I would add dont circumcise your children and
> perhaps they wont hate the lack of
> sensation as much

51 years old. That means this is my sixth decade of life. I'm a gregarious guy, famously outgoing, known to one an all as a patient, receptive, reflective partner in conversations grand and trivial, a real bon-vivant, with a deep education and a dog-eared passport, working my magic in show business in a town that never sleeps.

And I've never heard any man complain about a lack of sensation from circumcision.

> Dudes: wear rubbers. Get a vasectomy.
> It's your problem.

Sing, sister.

> Which makes the lying-broads-stealing-
> your-precious-seed scenario a (possibly)
> slightly less relevant issue.

A good direction, there, Jody, but I think this topic deserves your sharpest sarcasm. Kill. Now.

> Use Condoms doesn't address the issue.

It manages the outcome, which is even better.

Random thoughts:

Men such as Matt Dubay might demand "Roe vs. Wade for Men" (that is, the right to abandon a baby) on CNN and "Dr. Phil," but you never see them go on TV or the radio to demand better male birth control. Why is that?

Here's how to start some campaign pressure:

male contraceptives dot org slash activism dot php

Plenty of addresses to contact.

And:

www dot newmalecontraception dot org

What I wrote to Soumya Vemuganti at RH Reality Check:

Don't expect a supply without a Visible Demand.

That is, men may respond positively when pollsters come knocking, but as far as profit-minded Big Pharma is concerned, that's not half as convincing as the sight of men who take the trouble and initiative to go on TV and say "yes, we want these new methods and will pay out of pocket if necessary!"

There are those who argue that if men haven't been doing this, it's because to do so would eventually raise the politically incorrect subject of WOMEN who lie about being on the Pill. However, it seems to me that the current economic crisis would provide a perfect excuse for the average man to say, simply and tactfully: "My wife and I can't afford more children right now! We must have more contraceptive backups that I can use!"

Yet we don't see this happening. Why not, I ask?

Until we do, Big Pharma has every reason to believe that the male birth control industry just won't be profitable - and/or that most consumers will be those men whose wives and girlfriends nag them to use the new methods. Not promising.

What I wrote to TAPPED (The American Prospect) in 2008:

I like to imagine a subway billboard like this:

"Don't believe in abortion?

"Don't want her to get pregnant either?

"Men.....Get RISUG. Take control of your OWN life."

And parents (single or not) could say to their sons:

"You use (male contraceptive X) to protect yourself and your future in case she makes a mistake. That's why I'm taking you to the doctor for that. However, a gentleman ALWAYS uses condoms to protect his partner - preferably until he's married. There are plenty of very bad diseases besides AIDS, you know. Some are permanent, and some can be caught easily by boys."

Of course, given how strong the temptation would be to refuse to use condoms, it might be better to wait until the boy is actually used to
buying and using them, macho-wise. That is, until he's 20 or so.

I think talking about teenagers and such is a whole 'nother issue. Maurice pointed to this already, about when this happens in a relationship. People making plans together, not a couple of drunk kids making a foolish choice. Given that ~50% of prenancies aren't planned at all, what is that saying?

"If the man takes her word that she's on birth control when she really isn't, then it's his fault." - Shannon

Um, so you're saying that he should just not bother with trust, and assume he will always be lied to. This is a horrible thing, really. What is commitment about? Wearing a raincoat all the time in a marriage can cause it's own issues, when the other spouse wants to have more kids. It's a very strange impasse, where an other wise intelligent woman with an education decideds that planning when to have kids isn't the way it should work. Knowing that after the first kid, you make sure to wear the appropriate diving gear, and so... every time you get intimate with your partner is a reminder that she wants another kid RIGHT NOW, and you were looking more towards a few years down the line when affording the kid won't be such a stretch. Interestingly the guy isn't saying NO. He's saying later.

In the several instances I know of this personally, I have never heard why that isn't good enough...

Spartee, I think if you check Tom Lykis, who is not an ilk, has not been on the radio in a very long time. It doesn't matter; men are talking for the first time in 45 years of feminist evil and no longer need a Tom Lykis to waken them..

However, fussing about stories like this misses the point. The main point is this:

When civilizations become more prosperous, it is INEVITABLE that women will get the right to vote.

Once women get the right to vote, it is INEVITABLE they will take over the political system.

Once women take over the political system, it is inevitable their incessant demands for more and more benefits at the expense of others, and their demands for more and more protection from everything, even their own mistakes and their own evil acts, will destroy their civilization.

So, guys, instead of fussing about one or more of the uncountable injustices cast upon your head by the collective political action of women, your solution is what I call my Get The Hell Out program.

It is virtually impossible to talk to most women about this sort of thing.

It is impossible to stop the steam roller effect of women in charge of the political system.

They didn't stop it in ancient Greece. They didn't stop it in the Roman Empire. You are not going to stop it here.

Yes, Amy understands these things aren't right. Amy can do no more about it than you or I can.

Stop arguing with women who view men as slaves for their own profit, and GTHO.

I write from Mexico. Life is good here. No ornery pissed-off women with their incessant insults and shaming language.

Thailand and the Philippines are good, too.

It is not only in the US. Last year, the UK census bureau announced a million men were missing. They had already imputed a million or more. Imputed means we didn't really find them, but we sort of suspect they are there somewhere. So, probably UK is missing closer to 2 million men.

Daily, men are leaving the US for work elsewhere that less qualfied women don't get all the jobs simply because of the p'pass. Many of them never come back.

Whenever this issue comes up, people tend to focus on the minority of cases, where a woman becomes deliberately pregnant by a relative stranger, while ignoring the other 80% ( my guess ) of cases where she tricks her boyfriend or husband into impregnating her.

When you consider the actuality of this issue, the advice that men should sterilize themselves or only have sex wearing a condom isn't very helpful.

The fact that a man doesn't want to have children at the moment doesn't mean that he never wants children. Vasectomies are only 97% reversible under ideal conditions, and then only allow a pregnancy rate of 75%, which drops to about 50% if the vasectomy had been performed 3 or more years ago, and declines steadily from there. This is the nuclear option of birth control. Most women who want to have children aren't going to become involved with a man with a vasectomy. So this is non-starter for men who want to have a family some day. It not only diminishes their ability to conceive, but dramatically reduces their opportunities to develop a relationship with a woman who wants the same.

And as for condoms in committed relationships - how exactly do you explain your motives for using them without ending the relationship?

Sorry honey but I'm afraid that you're going to go baby crazy and lie to me about using birth control??

This issue really does point to the need to address women's behavior because it arises from willful deception. Trying to blame men for having been tricked into conceiving a child just shifts the responsibility and encourages women to assume that this behavior is acceptable.

>>It is not only in the US. Last year, the UK census bureau announced a million men were missing. They had already imputed a million or more. Imputed means we didn't really find them, but we sort of suspect they are there somewhere. So, probably UK is missing closer to 2 million men.

Good heavens, irlandes!

This is HUGE!! I am so shocked by your brilliantly-referenced sources! We must all DO something! Now!!!...

"And as for condoms in committed relationships - how exactly do you explain your motives for using them without ending the relationship?

'Sorry honey but I'm afraid that you're going to go baby crazy and lie to me about using birth control??'"

Jack, maybe you don't get to avoid risking the end of the relationship. But the relationship will only go so far if you don't risk it, sooner or later. Marriage is a relationship of intense vulnerability. Not all trust is well placed at all times. Better to have those scary, risky conversations up front between the two of you than all the nasty, complicated conversations that highlight the perilous position you've put your kid in when there are, unexpectedly, three of you.

My experience of my own urge to reproduce is that it is not sane. I have my beliefs, intellectual understanding, and values, and then in complete contrast to almost all I hold dear, I have a strong urge to reproduce. It took me by surprise, that I would deeply grieve the loss of not doing something that is inconsistent with my values. And - here's the sucker punch - in grieving and letting go of that, I saw that if after a few glasses of wine I had been able to sweet talk my partner into knocking me up that year, I would have. And she said, "I know."

Perhaps the more you don't want to have that conversation, the more you have to lose by not having that conversation.

"Men such as Matt Dubay might demand "Roe vs. Wade for Men" (that is, the right to abandon a baby) on CNN and "Dr. Phil,' but you never see them go on TV or the radio to demand better male birth control. Why is that?"

Just guessing here, but if the topic came up, they would likely say, "Yes, we would love to see cheap, reversible male birth control, like women have with the pill or either party has with condoms." Is there any real debate there, if that is their position?

It is not like they are arguing against such things, after all.

First of all, I sincerely hope that everyone in this thread is a staunch supporter of abortion rights. Otherwise, you should be perfectly content with the rule that sex equals 18 years of child-raising/support.

Secondly, this discussion would be greatly enhanced by some actual facts and figures. Amy's original post referenced a 1998 opinion piece by a highly paid prostitute. Tracy Quan is an excellent and interesting writer, but she is hardly an authoritative source on pregnancy statistics. How many pregnancies result from female-initiated fraud? Fraud meaning that the man directly inquired about birth control and was reliably and credibly informed that there was no way the woman could get pregnant. Given that even the most reliable birth control options aren't 100% guaranteed, I'm not even sure how many situations would fit the bill.

So, anyone have an estimate, or better yet some statistics?

Alas, nobody here talks about the #1 way to prevent unwanted pregnancy - abstinence.

Tom Leykis classic on the whole digging thru the trash for the used rubber deal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA6tP_DV-Oc

Crid, regarding circumcision/sensitivity, men haven't talked about this issue much until maybe the last 10-20 years or so. Like many issues, the internet has been helping to disseminate (pun intended) info on the subject. I have scars to prove that getting cut isn't "no big deal".

Regarding male birth control "pills", I'm all for it. There was a story on NBC news I saw a few years ago about some UK university/lab working on a male pill. They went out and talked to several women in the London area and the best line was from some gal who said something like "Oh, you couldn't trust men to take the pill every day. I mean they forget to take out the trash/rubbish all the time". Projection perhaps?

My favorite example of the trick is the daughter of a family friend, a gal maybe 7-8 years older than me, who's pushing 40 now. She's a single mom because she forced a kid on her husband who didn't want another kid and the guy didn't have a stellar rep in this area anyway. She thought he'd come around and even admitted to her mother, "I don't know how it happened!" regarding the pregnancy. This despite her being a nurse. Its sad to see how starved for attention especially from male influences her son was and how selfish and entitled she acted.

Seriously, comprehensive sex education should have a special one-day session warning young men about the dangers of recreational sex and what will happen if they get someone pregnant. The STD angle is total BS, because most kids don't even think about that. As a matter of fact, most any men don't think about that.

They should be most worried about getting someone pregnant. They should be taught to always wear a condom, because a $1.00 condom is alot cheaper than 18 years of giving up to $100,000 to someone you hate and who hates you.

They should be taught to abstain from sex for the same reason. They should be taught the dangers of getting married and having kids for the same reasons.

The only way to be sure is to have a vasectomy. I think it is so funny you hear these stories about the guy hiding the fact he was snipped, his girlfrind gets pregnant, and then there is that perfect "gotcha" moment from the girlfrind and then an even better "gotcha" from the snipped guy!

so, crusader... you are you going to tell your wife of some years that the best way to avoid having kids is to abstain...

either she'll be glad, since she is tired of you any way, or she'll wonder what she did to deserve the only man in the world that sin't interested.

This may well nuke your marriage, because we are talking about committed relationships and not drunk high schoolers...

"Better to have those scary, risky conversations up front between the two of you " Michelle

Here's the rub. Life is about Time. We all certainly hope that you have those conversations up-front before committing and that everyone is telling the truth... But people change a bit over time, even if they are always together. My ex- had a phrase for this. "I changed my mind." In retrospect, all the times she said that I could have seen it coming. But hindsight is like that. You yourself pointed out how strong your desire was even in the face of what your intellect told you.

So we have a problem. When that desire gets to be a voice you can't ignore, are you going to stick with what you originally said 3 years ago when you hashed out those hard conversations with your partner? "I'm not the mom type, I don't want kids..."

Is there a reason a husband shouldn't take his wife at her word? Or should he just assume that the baby-monster inside her will win out over her intellect.

Are we suggesting that a guy should just get snipped without telling his partner, so that there won't be any problems but it'll be ambiguous as to why she cant get preggers?

It isn't the problem with having/not having the conversation, if you say yes or no without meaning it, or if you feel you can change your mind, and your partner should just deal.

> regarding circumcision/sensitivity, men haven't
> talked about this issue much until maybe the
> last 10-20 years or so.

Did they talk about it before that, or are you just trying to pretend that there's a whole 'nother nightmare just bubbling under the surface?

> I have scars to prove that getting cut isn't "no big deal".

Don't use quotation marks unless you're quoting someone. And if'n you don't mind my sayin' so, I know a lot of guys with "scars" that indeed suggest this is not that big a deal.

> Seriously, comprehensive sex education should
> have a special one-day session warning young
> men about the dangers of recreational sex and
> what will happen if they get someone pregnant.

Teaching values will never be a smoothly-running enterprise in the public sector, even if you get anyone to agree to it, and you won't. It barely works in churches; and obviously, many private homes can't get it done.

I don't think that our society is ever going to hold women to the same expectation of responsibility as men for the simple reason that women generally aren't as rational as men and often aren't as capable of ethical reasoning. That's not PC to acknowledge but it's evident from everyday experience.

Wow! What color is the sky in your world? So women cannot think rationally and aren't as ethical? That is your addition to this conversation? Are you next going to say that women should forfeit personal franchise and have the 'big strong smart men' take care of them? You comment is the equivalent of a woman saying that men cannot be trusted because they are all violent rapists. It is bullshit used by people who cannot engage in a true rational debate. If you want to be taken seriously in a debate you might not want to needlessly insult 51% of the population.

And as for condoms in committed relationships - how exactly do you explain your motives for using them without ending the relationship?

The same one my husband used until we were able to convince someone to tie my tubes: I know that I don't want kids ('right now' could be added if that is appropriate) and so I want to do all that I can to keep that from happening. It doesn't question the woman, but shows a man who takes responsibility for his half of potential procreation. We also discussed abortion, and what my inclinations were before we had sex.

This issue really does point to the need to address women's behavior because it arises from willful deception.

I agree that women's deception should be addressed, and frankly in cases of fraud (rather than birth control failure) the man should be able to sue for fiscal damages (and criminal prosecution should also be available). However, that doesn't rectify the fact that many men aren't seeing this coming, and they need to protect themselves. Making birth control the responsibility of both parties decreases the risk of failure, whether intentional or unintentional.

-Julie

I heard through the rumor mill that an acquaintance of mine got pregnant because the guy poked holes in the condom because he liked getting women pregnant and insisting they get abortions. Power trip or something.

Not sure I buy it... sounds a bit odd to me.

Do these things REALLY happen that often, in EITHER direction? Is this a large societal problem, or an occasional freak occurance?

I do think that we as a society might want to consider the relationship model of younger, fertile woman with older (not anciently so, just slightly) established man. The problem with similar age relationships is that most men aren't stable enough to support a family until their 30s, as society has gotten very complex. However, the 30s is not the biologically best time for a woman to have a baby. Yet there seems to be a stigma about a 21-year-old dating a 30-year-old.

"Here's the rub. Life is about Time. We all certainly hope that you have those conversations up-front before committing and that everyone is telling the truth... But people change a bit over time, even if they are always together." ~SwArD

Right. I understand there's no guarantee that people will stay together. It may be that a wonderful relationship runs its course earlier than either hoped for. I assert that a couple is not going to get anywhere worth going if they don't have those conversations at first early and often and then as needed. How far, and where, it is appropriate to go together, is up for each person to determine for themselves in collaboration with the other. People do change their minds and some choices are deal breakers - whether to have kids is an appropriate deal breaker. "I've changed my mind," when said in good faith, can be the beginning of a necessary conversation that may have a sad but appropriate ending. When said as a "f#ck what you want," it is your warning flare.

True enough Michelle, but if the kid is on the way when she says it, who gets stuck?

"People do change their minds and some choices are deal breakers - whether to have kids is an appropriate deal breaker."

Thing is that people are willing to have the kid first before the deal is broken, and there are incentives to do it that way.

NicoleK asks: "Do these things REALLY happen that often, in EITHER direction? "

I don't know; I've never seen any data, and I suspect that collecting accurate data would be very difficult. I do know a married woman who, 11 years after the couple's "last" child, decided she wasn't getting enough attention from her husband and she stopped taking her pill without telling her husband, and got pregnant again. As you might expect, it had the opposite effect of what she wanted: it drove a wedge between them. The child is now about to graduate from high school, and to this day she has no idea how she came into being; she just knows that her parents have been very distant from each other for her whole life, unlike the experience of her older brothers and sisters.

I've never heard of a guy poking holes in a condom. I have known a guy who lied to at least one of his dates about having had a vasectomy.

SwArD, if that is what you experienced, I'm sorry that your trust was abused and your vulnerability exploited.

For a man who is certain that he does not want to reproduce, I think the only sure thing is a deposit into a sperm bank (to preserve options), a vasectomy, and full disclosure, but that is cold comfort and a far cry from having your trust proven to be well placed.

Interesting article at Salon, apparently women tend to be less happy about unplanned pregnancies than men:

http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/feature/2010/03/01/unplanned_pregnancy/index.html

I don't think the issue of the ad was that the men were trying to trick the women into getting pregnant. I think it was addressing their lack of desire to wear a condom for comfort reasons which could lead to STD's and pregnancy. There are many women who will try to trap a man by getting pregnant just as there are many men who will run out on their responsibilities. It pretty much works both ways so rather than fight over which sex is the most evil, why not open up a real conversation regarding protecting against unwanted pregnancy and STD's.

My first marriage, which lasted five years, was the result of my 16-year-old girl friend wanting to get away from her mother (I was 19). She claimed to be pregnant. It had almost nothing to do with me; I was just the means to an end. I always used condoms but sometimes they broke or slipped off. That pregnancy, if it existed, didn’t take, but we had two children before the divorce.

Now, years later (sarc on) I say if women have abortion rights before birth, then men should have abortion rights after birth. If the fetus does not do its homework, or take out the trash, then this is evidence of obvious genetic damage and the father should be able to take it to a clinic and have it aborted—up to age 18, I think. (sarc off)

Thanks for the link NocoleK... if anyone wants the link to the actual study:
Unplanned

This is a study of unmarried people, but it is quite an interesting one... especially because the ideas contained in it, and the myths people believe, probably carry on into marriage too.

among marrieds, the statistics prolly will never exist... Because if your wife suddenly gets pregnant, what are you going to do? Most people say: "huh, hadn't planned on that, but we'll figure it out..." Not only would most people, I suspect, not think of it as being a manipulation thing, but who're they going to report it to, anyway?

Stuff I'm glad I don't know:

1) Who can afford to have kids?
2) Who wants to have kids?
3) Who is mentally stable enough to have kids?
4) Who is actually having them?

(Make a little Venn diagram, and then:)

3) What is the size of the intersection between these circles?

If I knew that, it'd probably make me want to jump off the nearest bridge.

Another interesting diagram would be where the populations represented were the numbers of all children themselves, with the questions pertaining to their parents. By comparing the two diagrams, you would then get an idea of how many unfit parents have lots of kids. Hmm, make that a TALL bridge.

Re: Mr. Venn— It was never a favorite melody, but I see what this guy was getting at.

> apparently women tend to be less happy about
> unplanned pregnancies than men

Well, whaddya mean "less happy"? Of course, I could follow the link and find out, but it's important to remember that men almost never die in childbirth.

I've got in trouble for saying this to people I like... But a core belief is that women who truly, truly don't want to get pregnant don't get pregnant.

> There are many women who will try to trap a man
> by getting pregnant just as there are many men
> who will run out on their responsibilities. It pretty
> much works both ways

Yeah.

CB, here's some data, but it's about the frequency with which abusive men sabotage their partners' contraceptive efforts.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-01/uoc--rco012010.php

It's not always baby-crazy women...

The problem with saying "birth control is everybody's problem" is if I, as the man, told my girlfriend "Please take the pill in front of me and let me check under your tongue every day" or "I know you SAY you are on the pill but I don't trust you and am going to use this condom"

can anyone imagine my girlfriend sticking around one more day?

I trust her because I know her and I am confident she is telling me the truth. But then I am sure every other man who was tricked into becoming a father felt the same way.

Contracts between people need to be enforceable. If you agree to not have kids, you must abide by that agreement. Hunter gatherers tended to keep their word, because if they didn't they were shamed and ostracized (in a harsh life where being cast out could mean eventual death) Nowdays our life is so easy, people think nothing of breaking their word.

The problem with saying "birth control is everybody's problem" is if I, as the man, told my girlfriend "Please take the pill in front of me and let me check under your tongue every day" or "I know you SAY you are on the pill but I don't trust you and am going to use this condom"

can anyone imagine my girlfriend sticking around one more day?

I can't understand why many of the men on this blog see this as such a contentious decision. Why can't you say,

"I want to do my part in ensuring that we don't have kids until we are ready for them, so I will always use a condom. What type of birth control are you using?"

This action is only as nasty and mean as you choose to make it.

-Julie

Here is a really interesting discussion (at least I thought so) of whether men would actually use a male contraceptive if it were made available. If my memory is right (I heard on the radio a while ago) one of the main points was that even if men had access to a contraceptive shot or pill, most women wouldn't stop taking their own. I think that's fine and makes sense, but what really blew me away were all the male callers saying that they just didn't know if they could take a pill, what about the side effects?!!? I just wondered what they thought women had been dealing with since the Pill came out.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104550221

I listened to the NPR recording and the one thing that it did bring up that I hadn't thought about was the various measurements that men hold themselves to. Men worry about length, girth, volume, etc. That might reduce a man's willingness to be compliant with hormonal birth control if it would change any of those measurements for the worse.

I'm not saying it is an excuse, but we need to evaluate not only how great the method is, but will anyone use it?

-Julie

Fascinating article, Sam. It's interesting that no one has been able to provide anything similar regarding female-initiated pregnancy fraud.

Cat - more power to you.

I could describe several of my loved ones similar to the way you have described your self.

One such friend was diagnosed with a defect in the MTRR gene. In addition to wrecking havoc on her metabolism, this condition can increase the likelihood of creating spina bifida in a fetus if coupled with a B12 deficiency. She eats like a saint - gluten free, almost no carbs, heavy on the protein. It gives her more energy and mental clarity, but does not change her weight.

Another friend was diagnosed with Hashimoto's disease. Not fun.

I'm all for a self-effacing sense of humor, but as someone who has an easy time with weight, it would be low to trade in that cultural currency.

I know CB, isn't that extremely interesting?

===============================================
Fraud
   /frɔd/ Show Spelled[frawd] Show IPA
–noun

1.) Deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.

2.) A particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.

3.) Any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.

4.) A person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

============================================

I find it almost unbelievable that people are willing to openly advocate fraud. In every other circumstance posters would be calling for the crooks head on a platter, and showing sympathy towards the injured party. But for some reason when the mark is always a man; and the crook is always a women attitudes instantly change.

Shannon:

I'm going with the stance of your body --> your baby --> your fault.

You're right. Her body, her choice, her responsibility. Period.

She gets to make choices about her body, what goes into it, what happens to it, and what comes out of it. So she should have to live the the consequences of those choices. Stop trying to make men responsible for womens' bodies and the choices they make about their bodies. Pregnancy is a female condition. If a woman chooses to have a child then she needs to take responsibility for the choice she made and support it.

Sam:

what really blew me away were all the male callers saying that they just didn't know if they could take a pill, what about the side effects?!!? I just wondered what they thought women had been dealing with since the Pill came out.

So men want to do their research and find out the possible side effects of using a drug, instead of blindly putting chemicals into their body, and somehow you're "blown away" about it? That seems like common sense to me. If tomorrow a corporation invented a drug that took away all of the negative symptoms of a woman's period I doubt that large amounts of women would immediately start taking the drug without researching possible side effects and drug interactions. Nor should they.

"I find it almost unbelievable that people are willing to openly advocate fraud. In every other circumstance posters would be calling for the crooks head on a platter, and showing sympathy towards the injured party. But for some reason when the mark is always a man; and the crook is always a women attitudes instantly change."

No one is advocating fraud, openly or otherwise. Everyone here is condemning pregnancy fraud as immoral, which is exactly as it should be. Interestingly, though, the only actual evidence about pregnancy fraud that anyone has been able to produce involve...wait for it...MEN defrauding WOMEN.

So save your mindless "poor men" blather for somewhere it actually applies. Show us some evidence that female-initiated pregnancy fraud is an actual problem, rather than a hysterical scare tactic in the vein of "children getting snatched from bus stops by sexual predators." I know a lot of guys think their sperm is so wonderful women would stoop to any level to get ahold of it, but let's be realistic.

CB you are a moron, how in the hell is a guy going to trick a woman into staying pregnant if she doesnt want to be?

Are you really that fucking stupid?

You want examples of women stealing sperm?

Look up the case of Richard O. Phillips & Sharon Irons to start http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7024930/

CB you are a moron, how in the hell is a guy going to trick a woman into staying pregnant if she doesnt want to be?

I suspect that what CB is talking about are men who claim that they used a condom when they didn't.

The issue here isn't whether some people do horrible things. Some men fuck women and never call them again. Some men cheat on women. Some women cheat on men. Some women commit fraud in an attempt to get pregnant. However is this a statistically significant number of women who do this? That is the question that CB is asking.

Just like some children are abducted by sexual predators, but the average child is still very safe walking to school, I suspect that the average woman wouldn't do anything as horrible as Sharon Irons, otherwise it wouldn't be news.

-Julie

I said:

"Men such as Matt Dubay might demand "Roe vs. Wade for Men" (that is, the right to abandon a baby) on CNN and "Dr. Phil,' but you never see them go on TV or the radio to demand better male birth control. Why is that?"

Spartee said:

Just guessing here, but if the topic came up, they would likely say, "Yes, we would love to see cheap, reversible male birth control, like women have with the pill or either party has with condoms." Is there any real debate there, if that is their position?
____________________

The question is, why aren't they raising the subject themselves?! And why do OTHER men - especially men's rights activists - not go on TV or the radio to ask for better MBC, if they resent unplanned fatherhood and child support so much? (A while back, I mentioned how both Marc Rudov and Bernard Chapin - both hotheads in their own ways - have made it clear they're just not interested. Chapin said "condoms work pretty well." My guess is that they don't have much sympathy for any man "foolish" enough to trust a woman anyway.)
_________________

Sio said:

Regarding male birth control "pills", I'm all for it. There was a story on NBC news I saw a few years ago about some UK university/lab working on a male pill. They went out and talked to several women in the London area and the best line was from some gal who said something like "Oh, you couldn't trust men to take the pill every day. I mean they forget to take out the trash/rubbish all the time". Projection perhaps?
_________________

But note that the knee-jerk response was about her being afraid of haveing too MANY babies, not too few. So contrary to what some like to argue gleefully, women will not necessarily resent the idea of men's having more control over if and when a couple has a child. (I suspect most would-be mothers will eventually learn to pick a man who WANTS a child - or simply dump him and look for another man.)
_________________________

JulieW said:

The same (excuse) my husband used until we were able to convince someone to tie my tubes: I know that I don't want kids ('right now' could be added if that is appropriate) and so I want to do all that I can to keep that from happening.
______________________

Trouble is, that sounds fishy to a lot of married women, since it's probably safe to say an awful lot of men would never marry if they thought they had to keep using condoms. (That is, she might think "he doesn't trust me," OR she might think "he's picked up some disease and he's not telling me.")
______________________

Crid said:

I've got in trouble for saying this to people I like... But a core belief is that women who truly, truly don't want to get pregnant don't get pregnant.

_____________________

So men who are, say, near-homeless and desperate, overall, are never lazy enough to forget to use a condom? Please. IOW, women can be lazy too, even when they think they're being careful. Not to mention that most people would not call women who use the Pill and nothing else "ambiguous" in their desire not to get pregnant. Yet some of those women do get pregnant, purely by accident. So do some women who use two methods or more at once.

Besides, if teens can be careless due to wishful thinking - even though most of THEM certainly don't want to get pregnant - why can't women?
________________________

Mike Hunter wrote:

I find it almost unbelievable that people are willing to openly advocate fraud. In every other circumstance posters would be calling for the crooks head on a platter, and showing sympathy towards the injured party. But for some reason when the mark is always a man; and the crook is always a women attitudes instantly change.
____________________

From Katha Pollitt's column from 1998 (it's in the book "Subject to Debate" - you can read most of it in Google Books):

"If this is fraud, then should we call a man's insincere promise to 'put it in for just a minute' assault?"

And: "Wallis says he insisted on the pill because it was the only method he considered infallible. But according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, pills have an average real-life failure rate of 6 percent. You'd think that a man determined to control his fertility would know these things and do his bit to lower the risk. Hard to feel too sorry for a man who couldn't be bothered to
wear a condom.

"What if Wallis is right, though, and Smith did deceive him? Well, just as pregnancy is a risk of sex, people behaving badly is a risk of love. All the more reason for men to protect themselves. How many women, after all, carry unplanned pregnancies to term because their boyfriends deceptively promise to marry them or otherwise support the child? It's the oldest story in the world! Most of those unwed mothers get no child support, and not much sympathy either. How far would a woman get in court if she charged theft of womb and demanded financial compensation?

"In the quest to control their fertility, women have demonstrated in the millions, gone to jail, jammed the polls, put up with the side effects and
health damage, and even died. They pay hundreds of dollars out of pocket every year for contraception and abortion, and donate millions of dollars and volunteer hours to Planned Parenthood, NARAL and other groups. How many of the men complaining that women have all the reproductive options have written a letter, given a dollar, joined a group, marched or demonstrated to get some for themselves? Every disease and condition in the country has its advocacy
organization; where is the big fertile-male campaign to forward the development of a male pill or a reversible vasectomy? Is male-controlled contraception at the top of the list of demands of any men's rights group?"

Trouble is, that sounds fishy to a lot of married women, since it's probably safe to say an awful lot of men would never marry if they thought they had to keep using condoms. (That is, she might think "he doesn't trust me," OR she might think "he's picked up some disease and he's not telling me.")

Not if that is started from the beginning. My husband and I doubled (and sometimes tripled) our birth control until my tubes were tied and we were confident it had 'taken'. If men won't sacrifice to ensure that they don't get a woman pregnant by accident, I don't have much sympathy for them when mistakes happen. What Crid often says is true for both parties. Men who truly don't want to get pregnant usually don't.

That doesn't excuse bad behavior or 'oopsing' men. However, men are 50% of this equation, and should take responsibility for themselves and their stake in the process.

-Julie

> So men who are, say, near-homeless and
> desperate, overall, are never lazy enough to
> forget to use a condom? Please.

I'd fight back, but I can't even understand what case you're making, or how it relates to anything I said. Nonetheless, I'm 100% convinced that I'm entirely right and you're entirely wrong.

Of course there are accidents, of course there are... But absolutely accidental pregnancies account for a teentsy little sliver of the population. Women are not stupid, even when men are irresponsible. If truly accidental pregnancies were really the problem, Earth would be paradise.

On the whole, these babies happen because biology and irresponsible desire bring them to us, the former nourishing the latter.

lujlp, I'd tell you to learn to read, but the fact that literacy is a struggle for you is readily apparent from every post you make. Here is the link, posted by Sam, to which I was referring:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-01/uoc--rco012010.php

The issue isn't a guy tricking a woman into staying pregnant, it's sabotaging birth control efforts to get her that way. Be sure to let us know if there's anything else you're having trouble understanding.

And no, I'm not looking for one story - I could find one story about a kid getting snatched from a bus stop, but that wouldn't mean that the activity rises to the level of a pattern.

CB:

No one is advocating fraud, openly or otherwise. Everyone here is condemning pregnancy fraud as immoral, which is exactly as it should be. Interestingly, though, the only actual evidence about pregnancy fraud that anyone has been able to produce involve...wait for it...MEN defrauding WOMEN.

Your statement is borders on retarded because it's impossible for men to 'defraud' women regarding reproduction. A woman have total control of their reproduction. Women can also unilaterally surrender their parental responsibilities at any time during or after the pregnancy.

As for your statement that "everyone is condemning pregnancy fraud as immoral", here are some misanderous gyms from this conversation that clearly show otherwise:

"Dudes: wear rubbers. Get a vasectomy. It's your problem. If a woman "dupes you" into having a kid you are a fucking idiot (...Get a clue, dumbass.)" - Gretchen

"If the man takes her word that she's on birth control when she really isn't, then it's his fault." - Shannon

So save your mindless "poor men" blather for somewhere it actually applies. Show us some evidence that female-initiated pregnancy fraud is an actual problem...

First of all fuck you cunt, I'll say what I want when I want. My "mindless poor men blather" is what this entire post is about. If you don't like what I have to say then feel free to pound sand in your cock socket.

If you want proof that reproductive that coercion is a problem, then you can start with: 'The National Scruples and Lies Survey'. Just google the title if you want to see the actual survey.

According to the survey:

1.) Four out of ten (42%) would lie about contraception in order to get pregnant, in spite of the wishes of their partner.

2.) HALF (50%) of all women would lie to their husbands or partners to keep their relationship going if they became pregnant by another man, a survey said today.

3.) Lastly the most ironic finding of all: Most women (68%) do not trust their partner.

Psychologists call that projection.

JulieW:

The issue here isn't whether some people do horrible things. Some women commit fraud in an attempt to get pregnant. However is this a statistically significant number of women who do this? That is the question that CB is asking.

So you're cool with fraudulent and predatory sexual behavior which an individual does not consent to not only being legal, but; also being subsidized by the government as long as it doesn't happen too often? What about child molestation? According to you're own post it's very rare. Should that be legal? How about spousal rape? That's pretty rare. Should we allow that also? How many destroyed lives do you consider an acceptable loss before you would force the government to stop sponsoring coercive sexual conduct?

lenona:

From Katha Pollitt's column from 1998 (it's in the book "Subject to Debate" - you can read most of it in Google Books)

You could have just said that you're to stupid and intellectually lazy to make your own arguments and we would have gotten the point.

"If this is fraud, then should we call a man's insincere promise to 'put it in for just a minute' assault?"

No we call it rape, and he can get thrown in the slammer for 25 years to life for it. You really are stupid if you think that a man forcing a woman to have sex without her consent is legal. A woman forcing a man into fatherhood without his consent however is totally legal.

It's pretty fitting that you brought up the rape example though. Someone who act's on their biological instincts regardless of partners consent is a text book sexual predator.

In the quest to control their fertility, women have demonstrated in the millions, gone to jail, jammed the polls, put up with the side effects and
health damage, and even died. They pay hundreds of dollars out of pocket every year for contraception and abortion, and donate millions of dollars and volunteer hours to Planned Parenthood, NARAL and other groups.

Give me a break. Women have been able to unilaterally abandon their parental responsibilities long before the United States ever became a country via adoption, and abandonment.

Young women can currently unilaterally surrender their parental responsibilities for any reason or no reason at all. Now they can even do so before the child is ever born via abortion. Abortion is legal because older women who are now long past their natural reproductive lifetimes voted in politicians that would push their agenda.

Don't pretend that any of the young women now taking advantage of the situation that they are did any serious work. Roe vs. Wade was decided in 1973 making an 18 year old woman who pushed for the legalization of abortion 55 years old now. Women begin menopause anywhere from 48-55 years old.

You do bring up an important point though. Men are socialized to care for and take care of women. Women are socialized to care for and take care of themselves. The few men that do speak up about male gender inequalities are constantly attacked insulted by women such as yourself for even mentioning the subject.

Common sense would dictate that if females as a group think that reproductive rights are important, they would want men to have those rights as well. This is just another example of some women wanting to protect their female privilege in order to have their cake and eat it too. All this is done of course at the expense of men.

Is male-controlled contraception at the top of the list of demands of any men's rights group?

Yep. In fact as an MRA I consider reproductive equality [especially legal equality] the most pressing issue. Reproductive coercion is the only way in which a man can be made a defacto slave, and face imprisonment if he is unwilling or unable to meet the cruel, uncaring, and sometimes irrational demands of government bureaucrats. I would also add the draft to this list, but in all practical ways the draft has been dead for a long time. Men cannot 'make' scientists' magically develop technology any faster. We may be able to eventually force politicians to change the law however.

Crid:

I've never heard any man complain about a lack of sensation from circumcision.

Yes you have, I just did it earlier. Every time you've heard an American male complain that using a rubber feels like: 'fucking a trash bag'; you've heard him complain about the lack of sensation due to circumcision. Whether he knows the reason why condoms suck so much for circumcised males is irrelevant.

Condom usage isn't such a big issue in Europe where men aren't subject to systematic genital mutilation.

From the documentaries I've seen tribes in the amazon don't complain about their high levels of infant mortality due to infant dehydration, or malnutrition either. But I'm sure that they wish that less of their children were dying at such a young age.

> So men who are, say, near-homeless and
> desperate, overall, are never lazy enough to
> forget to use a condom? Please.

I'd fight back, but I can't even understand what case you're making, or how it relates to anything I said. Nonetheless, I'm 100% convinced that I'm entirely right and you're entirely wrong.

Of course there are accidents, of course there are... But absolutely accidental pregnancies account for a teentsy little sliver of the population. Women are not stupid, even when men are irresponsible. If truly accidental pregnancies were really the problem, Earth would be paradise.

On the whole, these babies happen because biology and irresponsible desire bring them to us, the former nourishing the latter.

Posted by: Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 3, 2010 11:37 AM

________________________

Well, I COULD have phrased it better. My point was that even when you know what you really want, that doesn't necessarily translate into rational, intelligent behavior. E.g., we'd all like to have more money, but instead of trying to earn more or even save more, we THROW AWAY money on the lottery and casinos instead. That includes "smart" people. So in the same vein, just because a man is poor, homeless and is desperately trying to bring back some order into his life, it doesn't mean he "wants" a child he can't provide for when he doesn't use a condom. He's just hoping to cheat fate, period. I.e., gamble. Many women are the same way - they keep putting hope in the rhythm method, NOT because they subconsciously want children, but because they're trying to have it both ways and/or they buy into the myth that "real sex" or "real romance" is about losing control.

(BTW, I suspect quite a few couples manage pretty well by combining rhythm with withdrawal - but, of course, that's one of those truths that need to be kept very quiet, for obvious reasons.)

Stupidity is a relative thing, but I'd say, yes, women are stupid. So are men. To refer to the above again, someone once said "Lottery: The closest thing we have to a tax on stupidity."

Finally, your last paragraph sounds an awful lot as though you DON'T think women only get pregnant when they want to. "Irresponsible desire" - for sex, anyway - isn't the same as wanting a baby.

Besides, am I supposed to believe that the thousands of adult females who get abortions WANTED to get pregnant? Sure, some were hoping the men in their lives would want a baby - but I doubt it was more than 20% or so of the women who thought that.

Mike said: "Common sense would dictate that if females as a group think that reproductive rights are important, they would want men to have those rights as well."

_________________________

And from what I've heard more than once, it's WOMEN who are more likely to push for better male birth control. Meryl Streep was among such activists - well, 20-30 years ago, anyway. Makes sense to me - we've all heard of the husband who won't go in for his annual physical unless his wife drags him in.

Common sense dictates, however, that Big Pharma will not take a gamble on products for men that only women are openly clamoring for.

CB:

You're an idiot. Women cannot be reproductively coerced. Regardless of what a study coming out of the 'Womens Studies' department of the University of California [one of the most liberal universities in the nation] says.

Maybe you've been living on mars, but; female reproductive coercion has already been addressed.

1.) DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS ALREADY ILLEGAL.

2.) ASSAULT IS ALREADY ILLEGAL.

3.) WOMEN ALREADY HAVE MULTIPLE WAYS OF PREVENTING PREGNANCY THAT CAN'T BE SABOTAGED.

4.) WOMEN CAN ALREADY UNILATERALLY SURRENDER THEIR PARENTAL RESPONSIBILITIES, FOR ANY REASON OR NO REASON AT ALL, IN THE EVENT OF AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY.

5.) THERE ARE ALREADY SHELTERS FOR ABUSED WOMEN IN EVERY MAJOR PART OF THE COUNTRY.

6.) WOMEN CAN HAVE AN ABUSIVE MAN KICKED OUT OF HIS OWN HOME AND CHILDRENS LIVES THE NEXT DAY WITH A TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER WHICH REQUIRES NO EVIDENCE.

7.) THE MAN AT THE RECEIVING END OF THE T.R.O. WILL STILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PAYING THE RENT/MORTGAGE ON THE HOUSE HE IS NO LONGER ALLOWED TO LIVE IN. IF HE REFUSES HE WILL BE FOUND IN 'CONTEMPT OF COURT' AND JAILED.

8.) THE GOVERNMENT ALREADY WILL REFUSE TO HELP A MALE COERCIVE PARTNER CONTINUE TO ABUSE AND HARASS HIS FEMALE VICTIM.

The only excuse for a woman to be abused in modern times is if she fully consents to the abuse. Which is her business.

Now that we've addressed all of womens problems' regarding coercion and reproduction whether or not they're in a relationship; perhaps it's time to look at some of the problems men face for once.

Common sense dictates, however, that Big Pharma will not take a gamble on products for men that only women are openly clamoring for.

Bullshit. I have yet to see any evidence of women "clammoring" for male birth control, and trust me as an MRA I keep my ear to the ground regarding gender relations. I also haven't talked to a man that has said that he wouldn't seriously consider taking male birth control as long as the side effects were reasonable. Everyone that I've talked to considered the side effects of female birth control reasonable.

However no amount of activism will magically advance science to the point where there is a safe and reasonably effective male birth control pill available in the near future.

Mike Hunter, you've demonstrated just as much reading comprehension as lujlp, so just for your benefit:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2010-01/uoc--rco012010.php

Read that, then feel like a fucking idiot for not understanding something so simple. If you don't realize that men have been controlling women by getting/keeping them pregnant (just like women have been getting/staying pregnant to control men - neither sex has a monopoly on dishonest and immoral behavior, one just has a physical force advantage and one has a sexual manipulation advantage), then I can only wonder what other basic facts of human existence you're unaware of.

As for people supporting pregnancy fraud, you're not even close to accurately representing people's sentiments. I don't know what kind of weird insecurity you have that makes you obsessed with seeing yourself and your gender as victims, but it's kind of contempt-inducing.

In summary, since I do get the impression you're not exactly a steel trap when it comes to logical argument: pregnancy fraud is BAD, whether a woman or a man does it. But not everyone is ethical, and interpersonal relationships (particularly those freighted with biological reproductive imperatives) are often a place where individuals find themselves behaving with less than appropriate honesty towards their partners. This should be condemned, but is hardly evidence of some massive female conspiracy.

CB:

Read that, then feel like a fucking idiot for not understanding something so simple.

I already did bitch. Twice. The first time I read it was when it originally came out and the media started reporting on it. The second time I read it was after you posted the link to it. I also addressed that study twice. Read my previous post. One of use may be functionally illiterate but it certainly isn't me.

Women have been getting/staying pregnant to control men - neither sex has a monopoly on dishonest and immoral behavior, one just has a physical force advantage and one has a sexual manipulation advantage

True but irrelevant. If a man uses his "physical force advantage" to coerce a woman it's illegal, and he gets thrown in the slammer. If a woman uses her "sexual manipulation advantage" not only is it totally legal, but; she gets government assistance in the form of men with guns to extort him for mommy support.

As for the numbers regarding paternity fraud and male reproductive coercion; you may not like them. But they are what they are.

You "addressed" it? First of all, nothing of any intellectual value whatsoever has ever been written in all caps. Second, both men and women can poke holes in condoms and otherwise sabotage birth control. Lying is bad, pregnancy fraud is bad, what else is there to say in the absence of some sort of concrete evidence that this is some massive systemic problem.

I'm with Crid, here - I can't really understand what you're trying to communicate, other than a bunch of poorly spelled venom. (Well, I do agree with you about the fact that TROs are horribly abused these days, but that's a post-OJ effect that is already starting to swing back toward equilibrium - following centuries of women having no legal recourse whatsoever, naturally.) So with that in mind, you go into the same category as women who say that all men are evil rapists and similarly obsess about victimhood. Goodbye.

CB:

both men and women can poke holes in condoms and otherwise sabotage birth control. Lying is bad, pregnancy fraud is bad, what else is there to say in the absence of some sort of concrete evidence that this is some massive systemic problem.

Once again I've clearly addressed all of your points above. I've also provided the facts and evidence. You can look up the statutes yourself if you want.

So with that in mind, you go into the same category as women who say that all men are evil rapists and similarly obsess about victimhood. Goodbye.

When have I ever said anything negative about 'all women'? Remember to provide a specific example.

Declaring victory and running like hell from a debate with someone who has demolished your arguments with readily verifiable facts is your strategy? Not a very good plan IMO.

So you're cool with fraudulent and predatory sexual behavior which an individual does not consent to not only being legal, but; also being subsidized by the government as long as it doesn't happen too often? What about child molestation? According to you're own post it's very rare. Should that be legal? How about spousal rape? That's pretty rare. Should we allow that also? How many destroyed lives do you consider an acceptable loss before you would force the government to stop sponsoring coercive sexual conduct?

I never said that I was 'cool' with any fraudulent behavior. I am questioning whether this is as much of an issue as it is being made out to be. One survey of women saying that they would consider lying isn't the same as documentation that many children are being forced on their biological fathers through out and out fraud rather than unintelligent behavior on the part of one or both parties. I condemn all efforts to force any partner into a situation that they do not want. I also encourage men to consistently use condoms (or become sterile) if they are unwilling to father a child. However, just as the kidnapping of a child shouldn't force all children to live in a bubble, and the raping of a woman by a man shouldn't besmirch the reputation of all men, some women behaving deplorably doesn't mean that all women are evil lying breeders out to steal your seed and and your money. If you consider this a real issue, fight for better birth control and quit making excuses when men do not protect themselves.

I'm the one who said this, remember? :

I agree that women's deception should be addressed, and frankly in cases of fraud (rather than birth control failure) the man should be able to sue for fiscal damages (and criminal prosecution should also be available). However, that doesn't rectify the fact that many men aren't seeing this coming, and they need to protect themselves. Making birth control the responsibility of both parties decreases the risk of failure, whether intentional or unintentional.

Posted by: JulieW at March 1, 2010 1:09 PM

Attacking people who are on your side is a stupid way to try to win a debate.

-Julie

"However, just as the kidnapping of a child shouldn't force all children to live in a bubble, and the raping of a woman by a man shouldn't besmirch the reputation of all men, some women behaving deplorably doesn't mean that all women are evil lying breeders out to steal your seed and and your money."

Well said, Julie. And since no one seems to have any evidence, or is even willing to make the claim that pregnancy fraud is more common than rape or kidnapping (and both are routinely ridiculed on this board as happening far less often than activists assert), I think we're left exactly where we were at the beginning of the thread: deception, as well as lack of personal responsibility (the two are often closely linked, since many people put on blinders and choose to rely on others who have proven themselves manifestly untrustworthy), are both bad. What else is there to say?

Mike Hunter said:

Bullshit. I have yet to see any evidence of women "clammoring" for male birth control, and trust me as an MRA I keep my ear to the ground regarding gender relations. I also haven't talked to a man that has said that he wouldn't seriously consider taking male birth control as long as the side effects were reasonable. Everyone that I've talked to considered the side effects of female birth control reasonable.

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OK, "clamor" may be too strong a word. My point is that the word from doctors, at least, is that "men don't want their genitals messed with." Over and over. (Which may well be THE reason that, even though better male BC was discussed in the book "Our Bodies, Ourselves" as early as the early 1970s - and a male pill was made that decade as well and rejected by patients - we don't hear about Meryl Streep's activism any more. One has to lose patience eventually.) However, there's no shortage of women who, for medical reasons, cannot use any hormonal methods and so would be only too glad for their partners to have something to use besides condoms - in addition to a diaphragm, maybe. Mere Internet gossip doesn't prove that doctors are wrong about what men are willing to use. BTW, for non-hormonal male methods, search on RISUG and the IVD.

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However no amount of activism will magically advance science to the point where there is a safe and reasonably effective male birth control pill available in the near future.

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How do you know? Where IS the activism - and, more importantly, the fund raising? As I mentioned, there was a male pill in the 1970s - and there's been plenty of time since then to develop all sorts of hormonal and non-hormonal methods, but men don't seem that willing to fund the research.

I notice you didn't say anything regarding the points I made in my March 1, 9:37 post. Wonder why that is?

I was in a rush last night and didn't have time to point something else out - Pollitt WASN'T talking about forced sex. Can't you read? She was saying, simply, that we can't just go labeling anything we want as rape, nor would we want it that way. (Would YOU consider it fair if you got convicted of rape because she'd said yes to intercourse lasting one minute but not two, with or without birth control? More importantly, would you want your father, your brother, or your son living under the threat of such a law? I can only hope not.) Not to mention that any man could get out of paying child support by saying, truthfully or not, "she lied about using birth control, Your Honor." If we let him.

Women cannot be reproductively coerced. Regardless of what a study coming out of the 'Womens Studies' department of the University of California [one of the most liberal universities in the nation] says.

It's kinda funny that you have issue with studies you think come out of 'women studies' departments but consistently provide us with studies from MRAs and expect everyone to consider them unbiased and valid.

Of course women can be reproductively coerced. In an abusive situation a persons every move is controlled by the abuser. The abuser can throw away medication, rape the victim, keep the victim from having any money to buy medication or seek medical help. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I think we're left exactly where we were at the beginning of the thread: deception, as well as lack of personal responsibility (the two are often closely linked, since many people put on blinders and choose to rely on others who have proven themselves manifestly untrustworthy), are both bad. What else is there to say?

I don't know. What is driving me nuts is that Mike Hunter is attacking us when we are on his side. Both of us would love to see more reliable effective male birth control options. However, until that occurs, I don't understand why men and women both aren't doing all that they can to avoid unwanted pregnancy. I disagree with how easily a woman can legally defraud a man, but since that is currently the case, men need to protect themselves as much as possible...not wait to sit around and bitch when a women gets knocked up and they didn't wear a rubber.

-Julie

"men need to protect themselves as much as possible...not wait to sit around and bitch when a women gets knocked up and they didn't wear a rubber." - JulieW

If my memory is right, Mike Hunter is the father of a child he didn't plan to have, so I think this is why he's touchy on the whole responsiblity issue. He just REALLY doesn't want any portion of that outcome to be his fault. I know that lots of men find condoms inconvienent or whatever, but lots and lots of women find birth control pills "inconvienent" as well, and take them anyway, because pregnancy is a lot more inconvienent. I just love that Mike Hunter says somewhere up there that he feels all side effects from female birth control are "reasonable." I am fortunate that I suffer no real side effects, but I pay a lot of money for good birth control. Every other woman I know either gains signficant weight, gets headaches, loses libido, forms blot clots, has dramatic moodswings or has some combination of those effects. They'd be thrilled if their boyfriends were able to take a pill.

If my memory is right, Mike Hunter is the father of a child he didn't plan to have, so I think this is why he's touchy on the whole responsiblity issue. He just REALLY doesn't want any portion of that outcome to be his fault.

We all fuck up and we all pay the consequences of that. I don't know what Mike's circumstances are, but if he had a child that he didn't expect or want, it happens. However, the only thing that I expect of myself (and therefore others) is that they evaluate situations when they fuck up and attempt to learn from them so they don't repeat it and take responsibility for the consequences. If someone intentionally forced Mike to be a father when she knew he didn't want to be, that is fraud and is wrong. However, I would hope that from that he (and others in a similar situation) would protect themselves. Being a victim of fraud is not the victim's fault. However, we all need to learn from situations and take responsibility to protect ourselves.

I just love that Mike Hunter says somewhere up there that he feels all side effects from female birth control are "reasonable."

I personally gain about 3 or 4 pounds per week on the pill no matter what I eat. The last time that I was on the pill I gained over 100 lbs in a few months and it took years before any weight would come back off. Side effects are as personal as butt-holes. Some work, some are tolerable, and some require intervention. All that matters is that stuff gets past in the end.

-Julie