Last I checked, porn didn't require the death of another unique individual. Could that be why? Or maybe, that 95% or so of porn isn't done because people are just too damn lazy to use birth control correctly and see the ending of another's life as an okay price for their laziness?

Baptists, they always got all the fun! ;)

He must've gotten bored with 'Freecell'.

What kind of idiot looks at porn at work?

I'm pro-choice, but am for the ultrasound.

I can't imagine looking at the ultrasounds now and having had an abortion before, and thinking, "So THAT is what it looked like". It would totally put a damper on my pregnancy.

Also, if you need to do something, you need to do it, but know what you're doing.

What I am NOT cool with is doctors witholding medical information from the parents, which the new law does. The doctor has the right to not tell you your fetus is deformed or has problems if s/he is worried you might have an abortion. That's messed up. Even if I planned to keep the fetus I would want to know in advance, to seek out special programs for whatever the problem is.

I am also not cool with making the women fill out questionaires and post them online. That is creepy.

momof4, he didnt say a thing about dead babies, he said not getting an utrasound before an abortion was degrading to women.

If not getting a picture of a soon to dead fetus is degrading, then what the hell is porn?

Wow, standards for "porn" are pretty low around here. That could be the profile picture of dozens of my friends' Facebook page, or from any number of completely non-porn websites.

You have to be fully informed about every little detail before getting your appendix out, why should abortion be different? Yes, some women will change their mind once they see it actually looks like a baby. Good. Why are prochoicers so determined to keep abortion this secret process? Why are they so afraid some women might choose life? A woman that truly wants an abortion will get one anyway.

So I'd say, not getting a full medical work-up (yes, the Dr should have to be honest about the baby's health) is degrading to women. Hell, my Dr gives me ultrasounds just to check things out when I have some bad cramps. It seems like requiring one for an abortion is just good medicine-what if it's a tubal pregnancy? They might want to know that before sucking out the uterus.

''A woman that truly wants an abortion will get one anyway.'' Exactly.

I can't dive into this debate since I'm not American but it does seem pretty shitty to withhold important information that could help a woman determine what to do when the baby arrives (re: deformities)if she chooses to continue the pregnancy.

Amy there are clinics that have the 3d ultrasound that do these for woman for free. And most look at the ultrasound.. The CPC associated with my church runs one and has licensed ultrasound techs who volunteer to do the ultrasounds. They also have a high rate of woman who choose to have the baby..

boy amy, you are going to have a lot of issues with the government when obamacare kicks in

gee, if the guy worked for the SEC, he'd get fired. I don't give a damn about how he vote, he's viewing pr0n on a govt. computer, while on the taxpayer dime.

Why is an ultrasound relavent to getting an abortion? it isn't an appendix, and it isn't surgery.

Interesting. When I got my IUD, the doctors didn't make me have an ultrasound to see the womb I was leaving barren in the hopes I would feel some longing to fill it. They didn't even make me take a test to see whether I was already pregnant. They took my word on it based on my last menstruation. When they removed the tumor in my mother's colon, we were not required to see all the scans before we approved the surgery.

These scans are not medically necessary. Abortions have been moving along fine without them. Pro-lifers want to make women feel guilty about getting an abortion. Whether they should feel guilty or not is irrelevant. I don't want my doctor trying to sway my medical decisions according to someone else's morality.

>> Pro-lifers want to make women feel guilty about getting an abortion.

That's it in a nutshell.

>> >> Pro-lifers want to make women feel guilty about getting an abortion.

>> That's it in a nutshell.
_________________________________________________

@ Eric

Not sure I get your point. Of course pro-lifers want to make women feel guilty about getting an abortion. We think it's morally wrong and akin to murder. If we believe that, why should we not try to dissuade others from getting an abortion?

Would you rather we were blowing up car dealerships or tossing red paint on your wife?

>>Would you rather we were blowing up car dealerships or tossing red paint on your wife?

What would be the point of those actions, Thomas?

"that should be a woman's choice, whether she wants to see it/pay for it"

To be perfectly honest, I have never met an woman who have wanted an abortion. Those going to CPC may be looking for a way or reason out or they may just want an ultrasound so they can get an abortion in places where this is already law- I really don't know. I do know that lying to a woman about what she is pregnant with is wrong.

True story.. When I was pregnant with my oldest I was a senior in high school. The school counselor at my school called in a lady from planned parenthood who told me that it wasn't a baby yet and even showed me this chart showing my daughter as having gills and looking like a kind of frog thing.. She kept asking me when I wanted to schedule an abortion, not if I wanted to. I said I didn't want to schedule one at all. She went on about how I was going to be left by my bo, who is now my hubby of...OMG 16 years this June, and I was doomed to a life of poverty and whatnot...

I got tired of hearing her talk and walked out. A few days later I had my 12 week ultrasound which turned out to be my 11 week ultrasound. I still have the video tape of my little girl swimming around inside me kicking her legs and sucking her fingers.. I had never wanted to kill someone so badly in all my life. And it wasn't my daughter. If I saw that woman today I would probably just loose it.

This law is to combat this sort of thing. Tell me what good are we doing for woman if we tell them the baby inside of them is nothing only to for them to have a baby later and have the 12 week ultrasound. What do you tell a woman then? Ohh this baby is just... what?

I know most here disagree with me on this and that is fine. Woman should be informed. You can't force a woman to look at a screen without causing neck injury.. Hell you can't force them to go to a clinic and get an ultrasound either. But they should have the option. They should have access to the information and know that they can get an ultrasound and see the baby..

I wouldn't like to see the abortion clinics providing this. For the same reason we don't allow doctors to profit from making prescriptions because they would abuse it, yes I am aware of kickbacks and such. Considering the profit motive would probably charge more.

It makes more sense to me to educate people on human biology than to make this law but the people doing abortions make money off people being ignorant of what is growing inside of them.. They have no incentive to tell a woman he truth and in many cases they outright lie.

And yes I think people should be informed about every medical procedure.. Placing an IUD without a pregnancy test is outright medical malpractice..

If we believe that, why should we not try to dissuade others from getting an abortion?

That's certainly one tactic. But forcing women to pay for their own guilt trip is sleazy.

Should we be glad that you are only using underhanded, expensive legal and medical tricks instead of bombing clinics? Would you be grateful if your wife/girlfriend merely ridiculed you in front of all of your friends and stiffed you with an expensive bar tab instead of punching you in the face?

Thomas, as opposed to making that coersion of guilt a LAW? What right do you have as a matter of PUBLIC POLICY to enforce your morality on everyone. If you think it's morally wrong, then you give me scientific evidence that human life begins at conception. And make sure you can tell those cells apart from any other biologic.

This is why the law always skates, because at this moment in our civilization we don't have a handle on what exactly human life entails. Is it thinking, or breathing, or merely having a heartbeat? Is it potential?

Go ahead and shout your opinion from the rooftops. That is opinion and not law. Our law is actually pretty good basically on allowing termination, until a fetus miight be considered a viable human. It's a fairly good compromise. between various different human rights, and a woman's right to control her own body, and in private.

Teaching is different from coersion by law. On one you give the individual a tool to make decisions, on the other you take their ability to make decisions away, because you assert that you know better.

"They didn't even make me take a test to see whether I was already pregnant"

That's well, well, well below the accepted standard of medical care. You have a shitty Dr. There are a lot of things that could be going on in your uterus that counterindicate an IUD. Pregnancy is just one of them, and by no means the "worst".

Abortion is surgery Rad. By any standard short of the morning after pill. Surgery comes with a minimal level of care, and some of that is making sure of the conditions in the body BEFORE you have the surgery. They won't even pull your wisdom teeth without an Xray. And sure, you'd like to think (I guess...) that the women getting abortions know what they're doing, but many of them don't. At all. They tend to be young and dumb. Informing them is on no way trying to make them feel guilt. It's trying to make them informed. Period.

>>They tend to be young and dumb.

And if they're not, momof4, they can just suck up the condescending (and costly)ultrasound?

Is that it?

It seems that rentboy is pretty popular with the homophobic Christian bigots, Amy. Did you happen to see this?

1) That was internet porn? Nudity, sure. Porn? Hardly, especially in the modern sense or the word.

2) There is nothing inherently hyprocritical about being anti-abortion and personally enjoying nudity, although one cetainly shouldn't do it on the taxpayers' dime.

If a woman is going to feel guilty upon seeing an ultrasound, so guilty that she decides not to abort... she shouldn't have an abortion. If she still wants to have one, at least she is informed.

Make the insurance cover it, or medicare for poor people if that is what you are worried about.

If an ultra siund is medically nessicary it is one thing.

If its not then the only people ho should be paying for it is the "moral" assholes who insist on inflicting their morality on the rest if it

"and if they're not, momof4, they can just suck up the condescending (and costly) ultrasound?

Is that it?"

It's MEDICALLY ADVISED if not outright necessary to have one. You can piss a positive test and not BE pregnant. You might have cancer. You might be pregnant outside your uterus. Don't we want these poor women to have the best care possible? Hmmm? If we're only concerned about cost, let's go back to coathangers and back alleys. That's sure cheap.

It is unclear from context whether this guy just opened up a document someone sent him, or what... It could be "innocent, although I see nothing so offensive about it...better than looking at violence...he also looks at a dog.

The state should not be involved in abortion in any way.

I have to say it.

It's pretty silly to say the state or its representatives shouldn't "force their morals upon you/us/me".

Nearly the entire field of criminal law is NOTHING BUT morality being codified an enforced by the state, i.e., forced on all of us.

What you mean to say, if you're honest, is that you disagree with the particular moral judgement and therefore disagree with the law that is used to enforce it.

But trust me, if you're for capturing and punishing murderers, robbers, etc... then you are, like any sane person, just fine, in most instances, with the state "forcing its morals upon us". The question is which morals.

Some slogans really get to me. It's amazing that some, like that one, ever caught on in the first place.

D, dont try and bring that agrument up. Its a non starter.

If I were to murder someone then they could no longer earn a living, their familly would have to find other means of support.

It causes a disruption to the fabric of society.
Same with theft. Why should anyone work to create goods and services if there is no deterent to robbery?

Comparing murder and robbery to forcing women to pay extra for an ultrasound that isnt nessecary just before an abortion in order to try and play on emotions is just stupid.

You want to talk about personal drug use, prostitution, and other 'vice' crimes go right ahead. That would be an apt comparison.

You know the funniest thing about this law? Had christians throught the last few centuries gotten their way we wouldnt have modern medical technologies and procedures.

lujlp, I did not make the comparison you suggest. Stop with the straw men.

Murder is a moral issue. Your post indicates you get this. Thus it falls under the "don't force you MORALS down my throat!" dumb-dumb cliche.

Ditto for nearly all of criminal law.

If you agree, then we have no disagreement.

If you disagree with THAT (not something else I didn't write), then let's hear it.

The original phrase was, "You can't legislate morality!"

Yet we can, do, and often should.

As well we should disagree on what should be legislated or what falls under the umbrella of morality.

A better argument should be that certain issues aren't moral in any way, that no one is actually harmed by act x, so act x shouldn't be illegal in the first place. That's what people usually mean, but instead they substitute that for a poorly thought through slogan. And when you follow that slogan's logic, it leads to very stupid conclusions.

"If I were to murder someone then they could no longer earn a living, their familly would have to find other means of support."

So if someone murders an alcoholic homeless bum your cool with that..

Of coarse not. Or at least I hope not.. There is more to murder than removing a productive member of society. The Judeo Christian morality that permeates our laws and society has informed our consciences to know that that mans life is his own. As is the unborn child's life. There should be more to taking that life that just not wanting to be pregnant.. Most young woman who go to cpcs really don't know what they are pregnant with and when they see the baby they choose life..

And as momof4 said... There are issues besides that should be investigated. Many woman have gone in for an abortion and died later from a ruptured ectopic..

And she is right about the xrays.. Had a root canal 2 weeks ago and there were no less than 5 x-rays taken during that.. There are a few little pictures of my tooth with little stick looking thing sticking out of them She explained every step exactly what she was doing.. I expect no less from anyone who treats me and my kids.. I have never been put under but if I were I would expect them to tell me before hand what they were going to do and show me diagrams of everything as well.

When my hubby had emergency surgery on his appendix and gall bladder it was the same thing. His surgeon even took pictures of the stuff and told him how they had to change what they intended to do when the realized the radiologist had made a mistake in saying the appendix was fine..

Its just what good doctors do..

Many woman have gone in for an abortion and died later from a ruptured ectopic..

How many?

"If I were to murder someone then they could no longer earn a living, their familly would have to find other means of support.

It causes a disruption to the fabric of society."

Then, Luj, by your reasoning, it's A-Ok to kill an unmarried socially withdrawn childless orphan, eh? Crimes are only crimes if it disrupts someone else? Homeless drug addicts no one misses are fair game?

MonicaP, I can't google how many die from an ectopic pregnancy then, but you are roughly 500 times more likely to have a subsequent ectopic pregnancy after abortion than a woman who has never had one (CDC). Ectopic pregnancies are very dangerous and can kill you. You think CPCs let clients in on this little fact?

Momof4, someone who kills random people wont limit themsevels to people nobody will miss. Even socially withdrawn loners do have people in their lives and homless drug addicts might turn their lives around - and even if they dont they serve as a warning to others.

And you got reaserch on the 500% INCREASE IN EPTOPICS AFTER AN ABORTION?

sorry bout the CAPS dont recall hitting the caps lock

I certainly want to see women get all the information they need to make educated choices, which includes all the negatives of an abortion as well as a delivery. OB/GYNS don't often tell newly pregnant women all the horrible things that can happen to them over the course of a pregnancy and delivery, and they should be doing that, too.

What I don't want to see is the cost of testing adding to the amount of time it takes women to get an abortion. Guttmacher reports:

"Fifty-eight percent of abortion patients say they would have liked to have had their abortion earlier. Nearly 60% of women who experienced a delay in obtaining an abortion cite the time it took to make arrangements and raise money.[4]"

also

"Abortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or birth defect, and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries.[1]"

and

"The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[3]"

If paying for an ultrasound means they wait even longer, then we are putting women's lives at greater risk. I have no real issue with ultrasounds as long as it does not increase the cost of an abortion and she is not forced to look at it. (There are ways to coerce without physically turning someone's head.) Ultrasounds should be used for medical purposes, not emotional-manipulation purposes.

"What kind of idiot looks at porn at work?"

About 99.9% of men?

It was sent to him as an email. Sounds like a set up to me.

You know what has lower risks than first trimester abortions? Birth control! I've heard it's cheaper than an ultrasound, too.

Yea, but fundie christains are pretty good about keeping birth control away from youngsters.

My sex ed class cliamed condoms didnt prevent pregnacy and caused an increase in vaginal tearing

You would think anyone working for the government would realize that Big Brother is always watching... well, in this case it's just the obvious camera guys at the meeting -- but nonetheless, that's one smart official =)