Let me get this straight -he got paid what, 40 million, to walk away from a job, and we're supposed to feel bad for him? I wish someone would pay me not to work. I'd take 1 million for it.

A good portion of that $40m went to his crew. After uprooting them from LA to NYC he didn't want to leave them in the lurch. And I can imagine that a comedian would rather have the Tonight Show than millions.

conan has always been a smirky bastard anyway. Lets face it both he and leno couldn't hold jonhny's jock strap

The only defense of Leno I can accept is, in his words, he has about 150 people in his employ. If he didn't take the job back, they'd be out of work.

Of course, Conan's people are out of work too, but then Leno has to be concerned with his own.

But I think maybe the deeper issue was NBC is run by cowards. They gave Leno a chance, remember when he first took over and all the critics hated it and rating plummeted? Nowdays, it's like if you can't have a hit immediately they cancel you. Which only reinforces the problem of cable have better tv than broadcast. Broadcast won't take chances.

It's show business. No promises... Not for the talent and not for the catering crew. I haven't even watched this kind of television since about 1989, but I don't understand why O'brian's upset. He gets to keep the money. If he wanted a more successful career, why didn't he just do better work? If he'd been funnier, maybe more people would have watched his TV show.

Any mid-westerners out there this guy?

Crid from what I understand Conan had a chance to get either te show Lettermn got or some other higher paying gig. NBC offered him the Tonight Show within a certain time frame if he turned it down.

He howed loyalty to a corperaion that he worked for and they screwed him over. He could have jumped networks yrs ago for a higher paying job, but didnt based oon promies and a contract that NBC ofered and later broke.

Woulbnt you be pissed if the people you'd worked decades for talked you out of a bigger paycheck now in exchange for the big show a few yrs down the line only to throw you out less than a year into your promotion?

> He howed loyalty to a corperaion that he worked
> for and they screwed him over.

No, he chose from a series of options and it didn't work out. When the money gets that big, and the corperaion has made you nationally, perhaps internationally famous for twenty years, you have no business whining like a teenage busboy about how the restaurant manager screwed you on the weekend schedule.

Again– Why couldn't he just deliver the goods? If he wants to do a talk show, why doesn't he do a talk show? People do that on the internet all the time.

Why, after DECADES on national television, was he still at the whim of these evil little trolls, men who could toy with him as cats do a mouse? Had NBC, after thousands of hours of coast-to-coast distribution, really not given America a chance to taste this man's magic? Why isn't there a vast legion of enraged, adoring viewers rising up to give him a new multi-million dollar contract at Discovery channel? (Or isn't that exactly what's happened? I forget.)

Look carefully at the frame grab Amy's pasted at the top of this page. Consider the eyes looking off to the side, as if he's hoping people he admires won't CATCH him whining. Note that the eyes are nonetheless looking overhead, as if at a greater truth the interlocutor just can't fathom. See the petulant cant of the eyebrows, the vigor of the rictus, the enthusiasm: This is weasel at full squeal... Over a TALK SHOW.

I don't move in those circles, OK? I'm a technician, not a celebrity. But I've never heard any scuttlebutt about Leno that suggests the common perception is off-kilter. If you're in a position where you think JAY LENO screwed you over, you really haven't been watching the books.

interlocutor just can't fathom. See the petulant cant of the eyebrows, the vigor of the rictus,

I can haz theusaraus !!1

I saw Conan's live show. It was fun but the audience was largely 25-35, all bought their shirts at Urban Outfitters (well, me too.) I think my parents stay up for Leno every now and then, they aren't very likely to get the masturbating bear gag.

I might actually tune into his tbs show when it comes out, if they don't put it on after the 11 o'clock news. I've tried to stay up for letterman/leno's monologues but as soon as the sportscaster comes on I'm like click, off, gone.

Also, the live show had several bits along the same lines as the subtitles. I think he's just trying to maintain buzz during the lull, energize his base's angst.

Megan, don't be bitter. My powers come from a pure heart.

Crid, sometimes I think you're living in your own version of reality that doesn't have much to do with the rest of the world. It seems like you've taken a personal dislike to the man and it colors your perception. Did anybody else see him as whining, or even seeming to feel sorry for himself? I'm not saying he looks happy about what happened, but who would be if it happened to them.

I don't care about Conan or Leno. I like Ron's comment "Lets face it both he and leno couldn't hold jonhny's jock strap".

> It seems like you've taken a personal dislike
> to the man and it colors your perception.

Well for fuck's sake... The discussion is popular culture, right? In what way besides media, including the thousands of viewing hours of his own creation, has this person tried to impress me with his righteousness or his decency?

No, Billy, I've never had the pleasure of actually meeting the man. I didn't even watch the video in this link, beyond the single frame that Amy provided... (And I've even been harshed for commenting extensively on that one frozen image.) I just don't give a fuck. But I read a few stories during this minor corporate squabble anyway, through the course of the usual internet info-harvest. There was an article by Masters that I remember reading... Though I don't remember what was said.

And so: It's my perception that this O'brien man feels that the world, and corporate broadcasting, and Jay Leno (perhaps the least hurtful celebrity of his generation) done him wrong... For although O'brien is in no way a natural or even gifted entertainer, he thinks American tastes and economic forces should be set back sixty yeas so that he can be Johnny Carson (who so far as I can tell was regarded, by everyone who knew him, as an isolated little prick).

Does that about sum it up? I believe it does!

A couple years ago someone, and I don't know who it was, said that popular culture today is no less tawdry than it was a hundred years ago, and I think this is true. As this source put it: 'There's no more reason to pay attention to an Astor than to a Trump.' (Though presumably the Astors did better with charity, but who knows.)

Pop culture is regnant in every economic strata, American pop culture especially, and for some very good reasons.

But they're all still just assholes. If we can't, y'know, judge them, why talk about them at all? And for Christ's sake, why would you take offense on their behalf?

Crid, I don't sign my name Billy, so please don't call me that.

It seems like I made the mistake of assuming you had watched the video. The initial frame shows him looking up at an angle, which is a common expression of someone searching for the right thing to say, or the right way to say it. Horrible of him to think about what he says instead of just blurting out the first thing on his mind. If you have other information of the situation that shows he feels he's been done wrong, then you know more than I do - I didn't even know he had been hosting the Tonight Show, so I'm pretty clueless. I'm not defending the man; I was just questioning how you came to your conclusions.

You say "But they're all still just assholes". Really? You know this from personal experience?
Because they're in show business? Prejudiced much?
You also said "why would you take offense on their behalf?" WTF? I wasn't taking offense, just wondering how you came up with you attitude. If this was the first time I had thought you were way out in left field, I wouldn't have bothered to comment on it. Maybe you know more than everybody else about human nature, or maybe you're like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills.

> I don't sign my name Billy, so please
> don't call me that.

I don't live on my own planet, so please don't infer that I do. Please believe that if this were my world, things would be much different. For many. Probably for you.

> a common expression of someone searching
> for the right thing to say

Nope, too much bliss. On that rictus. (Hi, Megan!) It's not just that he's searching for the right words, he's having FUN by pretending to have been through a transformative, challenging time. Read Ekman. Here's a guy for whom life has worked out so well that any expression of humility is just a transparent ruse.

But you're saying—

Oh, OK then, so—

Ah, I get it. He's NOT complaining. So tell me again why we're listening to him at all? To hear his featureless expressions of gratitude at inexplicable providence?

> You know this from personal experience?

People are assholes, famous ones are no exception. Famous ones often did something pretty stinky on the way to getting famous.

So I started working in TV as a teenager, doing newsy-stuff and public affairs, and was thereby able to meet (if not casually converse with) all sorts of notables... Sports guys, industrialists, politicians and so forth. Some of them had gifts, but they were never so far outside the human norm that they earned reflexive respect.

There was one exception. I met a musician, a guy who by talent and freakish hard work completely changed the direction of his instrument... He may have been the last guy to change the tastes of popular ear without using a computer. This wasn't for TV, this was just by hanging around backstage. I was an inarticulate punk kid, but he was patient as hell and gave me some conversation and a backslap and a two-palm handshake, and I'll never forget his warmth. And I'll never forget calculating the brilliance of his work as I looked into his eyes and thought "This man truly got a kiss on the forehead from God." That feeling never happened before or since.

Within ten years, he'd gone clinically insane, shattered a couple families, pissed off everyone who tried to show him kindness (and there were thousands, including people with their own tremendous resources of character), and died in a episode of tawdry street violence.

And he was the exception. Everybody else? Assholes until proven otherwise.

Says me. But golly, William, maybe you have exceptional judgment! Perhaps through the comfort of your People magazine and your Entertainment Tonight and your TMZ, you're able to suss out the specific spirtual elegance that compels these people to become broadly known, and to admire them on that basis. And to feel all moist and glow-y.

Have at it, Pilgrim. Knock yourself out.

Also, ask me about the time I met LT.

Crid said "People are assholes".
Looking in the mirror, Crid? Most of the people I know aren't assholes. Sure, everybody has their moments when they act badly, but most of the people I know, most of the time, behave in a civilized manner.

Then you say "Ah, I get it. He's NOT complaining. So tell me again why we're listening to him at all? To hear his featureless expressions of gratitude at inexplicable providence?" I didn't hear him complaining, at least not with any kind of poor poor pitiful me attitude.

And then you say "But golly, William, maybe you have exceptional judgment!" Never claimed to, that's your attitude, not mine.

Next "Perhaps through the comfort of your People magazine and your Entertainment Tonight and your TMZ, you're able to suss out the specific spirtual elegance that compels these people to become broadly known, and to admire them on that basis." This is the kind of thing that makes me think you're living in your own world Crid. Seriously, I could not care less about celebrities, and don't understand people who do. Admire them? You've got to be shitting me. The only thing i said was that it seemed like you had taken a personal dislike for the man. He (and other celebrities) seems far more important to you than he is to me. I'm not getting myself work up about him, or Sandra Bullock, or anybody else in the media.

And last "Everybody else? Assholes until proven otherwise." and "And to feel all moist and glow-y." Just because you see the world through shit colored glasses, doesn't mean that I see it though rose colored ones.

And why would I care about the time you met LT? Because you anecdote will 'prove your point'? Because he was an asshole around you? Because he wasn't? Because he turned out to be a rapist?

The latter... And when the news came today it was a genuine surprise.

Besides--

> I could not care less about
> celebrities, and don't understand
> people who do

How then did I misread you? Why do you weep when they're judged?

Damn, do I really communicate that poorly? Crid, this isn't about Conan. It has NEVER been about Conan. I was wondering why you had the reaction you did. I've wondered about your reactions to other things, and was trying to figure out why you have the reactions you do. My impression was that he simply rubbed you wrong. That's still my impression. Lot's of people rub me wrong, including you. From your reactions, I'm sure the feeling's mutual. But just because someone annoys me, it doesn't make me think they're an asshole. I try not to judge people when I don't know jack about them.

"On that rictus." Has it occurred to you that the image caught him in the middle of talking?

Another impression I have is that you read between the lines a lot. Do you ever take what people say at face value? Do you always assume they have a hidden agenda?

> I was wondering why you had
> the reaction you did.

I'll run through it again if you want.

• O'brien works in a realm of media, and in a style for that realm, that's been dying for a very long time, much like newspapers or the news side of TV: The White Guy Talk Show. No one should mourn this death. Its success in earlier generations was a function of the limited number of channels available, but anyone with camera in a $200 laptop can now reach as large a video audience the first national TV broadcasters had... So long as they have a show worth watching. This is an unalloyed good. There's just nothing bad about it. If you wanna watch a 'tv' show, or be entertained by someone who makes things like that, you'll have every choice under the sun, and most of them for free.

• While talk shows are especially prone to copying each other (it was Steve Allen who said "Plagiarism is the sincerest form of television"), O'brian always struck me as a particularly grievous offender. Worse, he was no more entertaining for having stolen so shamelessly, and from someone I once admired.

• The narrative from the TV business media goes like this (and again, correct me if I'm wrong): People think Leno compelled NBC to cheat O'brian out of a talk show. This is first of all irrelevant to me, and secondly a poor example of Hollywood's candy gracefully enjoyed. If you get famous for a while and make money, be grateful, and go quietly when it's over. No one in show business should think, or be allowed to complain publicly, that they deserved a better chance that they got. (Especially someone like O'brien who had nearly two decades to become truly beloved by viewers, but didn't deliver the goods.) American tastes rule the entertainment of this planet for very good reasons.

• A detail from my casual reading of the story, and yet again speak up if you know better, is that he had proper representation throughout his career, and so he had to be bought out of his contract for a cocksuckingly insane amount of money... Merely for not performing at a Carson-like level... When that opportunity will never be available to another man, certainly not to such an unremarkable one... And when he would then be free to pursue 'lesser' opportunities of such ease and remuneration that the man on the street would trade his eye teeth for them.

Ignorance of these last two points especially can coarsen people's understanding of market forces. Got that? Apparently the Amy's link leads to a youtube of an interview doctored by a snot-filled college sophomore, in which O'brien's imaginary inner bitch is given full voice though captions. I think that sophomore ought to choose his champions more carefully.

There it is! I don't think I can give you a more thorough understanding in a shorter number of words, but by all means speak up if there are still questions. But....

...One last note:

> Has it occurred to you that the image caught
> him in the middle of talking?

That was my point. Read this guy's book, you will at least be amused in a pop-science kinda way.

You think late night talk show format is irrelevant.
Ok, got it. I don't disagree with you (though I think there are a lot of people that like to hear details about celebrities lives from the celebrities themselves, which is a lot harder for an individual with a $200 laptop to accomplish). I'm not sure why it matters to you.

You think Conan isn't very entertaining. Ok, got it. Again, I don't disagree with you. I found him vaguely amusing at best. But again, I'm not sure why it matters to you.

"No one in show business should think, or be allowed to complain publicly, that they deserved a better chance that they got." I have to disagree with you here. Why should they be treated any differently from anybody else? In any way? Because they're famous? Because they've had fame and money 'handed to them', even if they aren't talented? Because they have a better life than you so they shouldn't complain when everything doesn't go their way? In the words of Joe Walsh "I can't complain but sometimes I still do". That's the way people are.
What, the only people who should have the 'right' to complain are those who's life truly sucks? Why are YOU complaining about Conan complaining, when there are little kids dieing a leukemia?

I knew what your point about his expression was about. I had already read about the guys work on micro expressions. Are YOU a natural lie detector, or have training to make you into one? My point is that without knowing the context that lead up to that particular moment, the expression itself is meaningless. The shape of his mouth could be the specific shape needed to make a particular sound.

> Why should they be treated any differently
> from anybody else? In any way?

Because the fulfillment they offer is so trivial, while their rewards can be completely disproportionate... At least, they are when the position is that of a 1960's-style talk show host in a three network market. (But that market is gone now, and people shouldn't whine.)

> That's the way people are.

They shouldn't be that way... And they often aren't when they know someone will call their bluff.

> What, the only people who should have
> the 'right' to complain are those who's
> life truly sucks?

He complains of wicked enemies, I point out that he's a dork, and everybody wins.

> Are YOU a natural lie detector

I'm an exceptionally perceptive individual, and my keen eye for nuance is complemented by a nearly bottomless reserve of decency.

> without knowing the context that lead up
> to that particular moment

So the art of portraiture and candid photography are worthless? Good to know.

> The shape of his mouth could be the
> specific shape needed

Dude, DO THE READING.

Are we going in circles here? Yes! Yes we are!