Not to thread-jack with a man's perspective or anything, but the best advice I've ever read was to attempt a make-out session (not just a single smooch) on the first date---even at high noon in the middle of a busy Starbucks. If you get denied, she didn't want you to kiss her to begin with, and now you know not to waste your time. If you succeed, she wanted you to kiss her, and she'll respect you for having the balls to just go for it in from of God and everybody.

(And, yes, I have field-tested this advice with sexy results.)

I have a male friend who used to advise me when I began dating after my divorce. One of his big rules was to never let a man kiss me on the first date. Admittedly I broke that rule more than once, lol. I only had one man not even try to kiss me at the end of the night but it fit his personality. He was extremely polite and extremely attentive. We had a great time and went out a few more times. It took until the 4th date for him to kiss me. When I asked him why he told me that he wanted me to know that he respected me and would wait as long as I needed to wait. It was sweet of him.
I had another date with someone I'd had a long flirtation with. He leaned over and kissed me as soon as I got in the car. Then he told me, "that was to break the ice so we're both not waiting all night for it to happen." It was cute and funny the way he did it and I was actually pretty relieved!
And finally, one of the first dates I went on after my divorce was with a friend of a friend. The only problem was I assumed he was a little younger than me but never asked. I was 34 and my friend was 28 so I assumed he was around the same age. At the end of the night he admmitted he was only 22. After my initial shock wore off, I threw an Altoid in my mouth and asked him why he hadn't kissed me yet at such a late hour! He was a lot of fun!

I agree with Tyler. On the first date, I knew if I wanted to kiss a guy, and if so, I was dying for it by the end of the night.

My husband grabbed me and kissed me about an hour into our first date. (Seconding Amy: Never, ever ask a woman if you can kiss her.) Make sure your breath is all set obviously.

If a man didn't try to kiss me, I would assume he wasn't really into me until he asked me out again or did something else to make his motives clear. Not necessarily a dealbreaker, but he could save himself time and money by trying early.

From a guys perspective again, I've been to ill to date for the last few years. But have brighter prospects of getting out into the dating ocean again soon. Which I'm excited about, but at the same time a bit concerned.

I'm lucky in that I have some wealth. Our family used to own a nice sized company, which we sold successfully a few years ago. On the return flight it was just the attorneys and I, and for a portion of the flight I was counseled on dating in America. It was a serious, concerning discussion. Things were different for me now I was basically told. I had to take precautions.

I chuckled about the don't ask for a kiss - just go it. From the lawyers perspective, I'm guessing the attorneys would want me to have a signed contract, witnessed, and placed into a safe, before a smooch occurred.

America - how did we become the great land of law suites!

I just realized how bad that last sentence sounded. I do not take for granted that the man pays for a first date, but generally he does.

Unless the date was a disaster, I would think it's a given that a guy will try to kiss a girl on the first date. You have to pay attention to her body language, of coarse, but I think if a woman was sending me the kind of vibes that say don't do it, I would probably consider the date to have gone wrong.

I generally have waited to the 'end' of the date. Tongue - definitely (always in moderation - it's gross when someone tries to stick their whole tongue in your mouth). I've always kissed them like the start of making love, which is what generally happened. Give her a passionate hug while you're at it, but keep your hands away from her tits and ass until/unless she's responding.

but the best advice I've ever read was to attempt a make-out session (not just a single smooch) on the first date---even at high noon in the middle of a busy Starbucks.

Gregg kissed me before the first date, really. We met at the Apple store at the Grove, and went to the Farmer's Market and had a coke, and then he walked me to my car and grabbed me and kissed me.

But, for some women, a coffee date really isn't that date-y, which is why, unless your sponsor would get tweaked if you take her out for drinks, you should take her out for drinks and at a grownup hour.

As for the girl who was advised never to let somebody kiss her on the first date...why?...and the guy should at least try.

Kissing a woman on the first date will get you further with her than not kissing her at all. Don’t let a woman’s faux indignation at your boldness sway you; they secretly love it when a man aggressively pursues what he wants and makes his sexual intentions known. You don’t have to be an asshole, but if you have no choice, being an inconsiderate asshole beats being a polite beta, every time.

http://roissy.wordpress.com/

My guy was pretty much like Gregg. We kissed the first nt we met when he walked me to the car. It wasn't technically a date, but, obviously, we were really clicking.

In almost all the dates I had over a 3 yr period, fairly recently, the guys either gave me a kiss on the cheek or a very sweet, brief peck on the lips.

I'd say the cheek kiss was more prevalent. To really make out on the first date is more bold, but, at times, it seemed right too.

Hardly any guy didn't kiss at all, and I think I would've wondered if something was wrong, or if he was too timid for me.

I'd advise guys that, when in doubt, go for the cheek. If she turns her lips to yours, you're ok for more.

Vinnie wasn't the least bit shy about kissing me on the first date -- in fact, he kissed me before our first official date, as we were walking along First Avenue (NYC) with a friend shortly after we'd met! I was both pleased and relieved, because with my shyness I don't always read others' social signals well. Vin was smart enough to realize quickly that being bold was the best approach! :-)

I always kiss goodnight, even on a first date. If she ducks, she's telling me she doesn't want me to call her back.

If it's an evening date and he's into me (not looking to bail and not call again) I'd expect a kiss by date 2 at least. Tongue or no depends on the way the date went etc. But at least a kiss. If there's no chemistry, there's no point in date 3.

My thought is that if he doesn't try to kiss you at the end of the first date (assuming it went well) he's either gay or has massive issues with his sexuality.
Either way, you should run.

My fiance basically jumped my bones on our first date. We had known each other for a while before the date, but it had been years since our last seeing each other.

The date went really well and we were very comfortable with each other. We did take-away Chinese and ate it while watching a movie. Once we were done eating, the movie was no longer watched.

Basically. We broke a major rule on the first date but it seemed to have worked out...4.5 years later we're still jumping each other's bones on that same couch. Aww how romantic :-)

I'm a big fan of opportunistic kissing. The difficulty nowadays is that there's not a lot of tolerance for unwanted advances. What used to be considered rude, or too forwards, is now portrayed as a sexual assault. So you have to make sure that you're not dealing with someone who's going to become hysterical and blow it out of proportion.

This is so shallow. My wife and I dated as *friends* for *several* weeks before we exchanged a first kiss. We evaluated if we could become best friends first, then we became lovers (there was physical attraction but we waited anyway). We've been married for 16 years now and all our friends openly envy our happiness. I'm regularly asked what our secret is. I answer: solid friendship first, then if love follows it will be for life.

If a guy didn't try to kiss me on the first date, I'd assume he wasn't that into me.

Bill writes:
"I always kiss goodnight, even on a first date. If she ducks, she's telling me she doesn't want me to call her back."

Word.

My friend who advised no kissing on the 1st date was actually a guy friend. He had a lot of rules. He was an Italian guy from Brooklyn so he had a lot of issues regarding dating. Big Madonna/Whore complex kind of stuff.

My friend who advised no kissing on the 1st date was actually a guy friend. He had a lot of rules. He was an Italian guy from Brooklyn so he had a lot of issues regarding dating. Big Madonna/Whore complex kind of stuff.

I don't know...on the one hand, it's a very bold move, unless you've known each other for a while. On the other, you've just spent two hours asking probing questions about each other.

In the end, it's not flattering if he doesn't try to invade your space in some way by the end of the night. It's just not. It doesn't have to be a kiss, but a hug, holding hands, arm around the shoulder.

Personal experience: a few weeks ago, my friends' BIL asked him about me, and I was asked if he could have my number. He called. DISASTER. This guy is horrible on the phone. I didn't turn nasty, but I ended with a "have a nice life" sendoff after he said that if I was ever in his area, I should look him up and meet him for coffee. (!)

So, I was asked to give him a chance, because he thinks I'm very pretty, and he's really interested, so I did, and he changed. We met for dinner and talked a lot. He's a lot better in person and through e-mail. The end of the night comes, and I'm just...waiting. Finally, I decide that there's no action coming my way (he's just standing there, not even moving towards me or looking at my lips, or anything), so I go to get in my car, and he says, "can I have a hug?"

I swear, Amy, your next book needs to be dating advice for idiot men.

Friends first, then lovers is an "anomaly", Amy? I don't think so. It's an old proven recipe for sustainable love. The ones who go for passion first are often divorced with a couple of kids in the way a few years later, when the passion fades and life reality kicks in. Friendship, and only friendship, will keep your couple afloat during bad times and over the decades to come. I see all the unhappy/fragile couples around me: they're not good friends.

It's just changing social mores. We shouldn't be so hard on guys, as there is obviously conflicting advice. Clearly, most of the women nowadays expect at least an attempted peck on the cheek or we feel the guy must not be into us. That's only because things have changed. It used to be the reverse. If he didn't try, it was showing respect and that he valued you as a potential long-term partner.

Glad that worked for you, Alan. Don't know your age, but so much of dating is about sending the right cues, and we're jsut telling guys now that a kiss is pretty much expected.

Friends first, then lovers is an "anomaly", Amy? I don't think so.

The best relationships I've had are ones where these things developed at the same time. I have plenty of friends. I want a friend I also want to have sex with. I don't buy that you can have passion or friendship, but not both.

I don't think I ever dated a guy who didn't kiss me on the first date. Good thing too, because kissing was always important to me, in that if I didn't like the way he kissed me, I wasn't going to want anything else from him.

This seems like a good opportunity to vent about something that bugs me. Onscreen kissing that just starts right in with the open mouth before contact has even been made. Not just parted lips mind you, more like full frontal tongue contact, like porno kisses. (Well, if they even kiss anymore. I haven't seen much current porn, but the 'actors' hardly made eye contact, let alone kissed.)

Anyway, for me it just ain't romantic. It's like having the baby toddling up to you with his sloppy open mouth, wanting a kiss. Yuck. (Just my opinion.)

Blondie had a song "French Kissin' in the USA" I think it's called. There's a line in it:
"Lips close, then open like a rose
Lips wide, holding you inside"

That's how it oughta be, as far as I'm concerned.

Now I must google that song and see if I have it right.

And I only suggest writing a book about idiot men, because there are already plenty of books about idiot women who date idiot men, even knowing that disaster is coming.

Oh, I know, I was responding to Alan. Especially the bit about only friendship getting you through the hard times. I married largely for friendship the first time. There was no passion. Eventually, we grew to resent each other. We were in our 20s and horny as hell, just not for each other. Lack of passion can ruin a friendship pretty quickly.

Something that a lot of women don't get, when it comes to why men aren't more aggressive, is that for a lot of men, born since the 70's, the message they get when they're young is that women are afraid of men, women don't like sex, and they're going to regard any overt display of sexuality as threatening. As you get older, you realize that this isn't the case, but you need to experience w/ women to figure it out.

So if you're interested in a guy, do something to tell him, even if it seems a little bold. Once he knows that you're not going to freak out, he'll probably take the lead.

Amy: you're right on. State your intentions first. But I don't think it HAS to be a kiss or anything with a direct sexual connotation. There's a lot more with body language and eye contact, among other subtleties. A too early kiss blurs everything, and passion can take over the reason along with the real sustainable feelings. (Save yourself frustrations down the road: think longer term, when the early passion will *inevitably* fade.)

MonicaP: you said there was no passion in your couple, only friendship. There you go, there was your mistake. You need both, only we disagree on which one should come first in time and importance.

Amy, if you need ringing endorsements from your readers that your books are neede, I'd definitely send one to your publisher. If I hadn't been reading your blog and column, I'd probably still be mooning over this guy and wondering what I did wrong, instead of just shaking my head at his "nice guy" ways, and moving on. I love what you say, and most of the men who post on here really offer great insights into the male psyche. It's not always easy to read, but it's helpful.

Feeling compelled to finally post a comment. This is an excellent discussion, one in whose archetype I find myself at present.

If you'll permit a bit of personal story...

I began dating a woman late last month. We've only been out twice. I haven't kissed her, only had a couple hugs and a brief hand-holding. Why you ask? Well, two reasons. One is I tend to be shy in public, and that's where we've been both times.

The other reason is she keeps switching signals. For a minute she seems open enough; the next she cracks a stalker joke. Err, yeah. Not exactly inclined to kiss someone who jokes about me "finding her home and trashing it."

JJ Price above said it well. I was born in 79; all my growing-up years I was told that girls need to not feel threatened by you. The whole "you're a man, so you're dangerous - mute yourself!" thing. Still shaking it off. Of course, when you don't get a good signal from a woman, it's easy to assume you shouldn't go for a kiss. Even if you want to.

Alan, I've had friendships turn into hot relationships, but in my case, the passion was there all along. Usually there was an obstacle like work, distance, or another relationship making things impossible, so we got to know each other as friends instead, and then when the "obstacle" was removed--*bang*.

I actually think this is a great recipe, but it's hard to prearrange. ;)

Here's a question:

I have had a lot of boyfriends, and nearly all those relationships started with sex on (or before!) the first date. I've never been one-night stood; they stuck around for months, took me out, treated me adoringly, and I was almost always the one to end it.

Am I an anomaly...truly? Or is sex up front not really the issue, but instead it's the men perceiving subconsciously that a woman is doing it to lock down the relationship? I thought of myself as having endless options and had sex for the sheer pleasure of it.

I had no ulterior motive. Maybe guys were attracted to me because I just loved sex and didn't need them? Is it the desperation and not the promiscuity that turns them off?

From what I hear, you're not really an anomaly. So many male friends tell me that women (they meet online usually) offer sex on the first date.

I find that amazing and quite dangerous though. I also believe that men are less likely to commit to - or at least marry - a woman who slept with them on the first date. But the guys should probably address that.

Poor guys. So much info.

It completely depends on the woman. I would actually find it charming for a guy to ask if he could kiss me. If he did it right.

I dated a guy for two years after on our first date he shook my hand at the end of an evening. The thing that attracted me most to him was that he didn't try to jump all over me as soon as he met me. I was looking for a real relationship and he was interested in actually spending real time with me.

And yea, it was a huge turn on.

LS, I can naturally only speak for myself and friends. But I have had only one woman offer sex on the first date. I was impressed (and turned on of course!). We were together for several months. That was a great relationship...I'd still be in it now, but the proverbial baby-bell rang and she decided she needed someone to have kids with. NOW. As I didn't want kids, that was an immediate here's-the-door. Oh well.

Insufficient Poison:
No you aren't an anomoly. It is not the big issue many try to make it out to be. Sex at the start does change things, sometimes for the better (getting rid of many nervousness and mixed signals, does he/she like me) sometimes for the worst ( putting up expectations that it was either a one night stand or that because of having sex you are a couple)
I always hated the statement, " If I have sex with him, he will lose respect for me."
My initial thought was how bad are you at sex that he looses repect.
But to me it's more if he is the kind of guy who dumps you for doing something he or both of you want, you don't want a relationship with him.

This brings up an issue I've been pissed off about for a while. Why is it "respectful" for a man to wait before kissing or even having sex with me? Is he defiling me in some way? I know that people say by waiting he may be showing me that I am more than a piece of ass and that we get to know each other slowly. But, isn't the physical expression of like or love also a huge part of getting to know each other?

There used to be a talk show host on the radio who's position on sex very early in a relationship was, if you do it and he doesn't call you again, it's not because you had sex too soon, it's because either the sex wasn't good or you are a major pain in the ass to deal with. I tend to agree.

So, to answer your question, Amy, if a guy doesn't kiss me (and it needs to be good, no slobbering or floppy lips) pretty early on, he is definitely relegated to the friend zone. And the odds that he will stay there permanently are pretty high.

Guys who say they need a signal often really need something else: balls.

Men have gone wimpy, thanks to the seepage of feminist-think into culture with the notion that male sexuality is shameful, not just different, etc.

Fair point, Amy. I haven't even had to think about this stuff for years...it was never this awkward. I'm out of practice, I suppose. And I'll admit that "false accusation" flashed in my head once on Date #2.

I was never aggressive about seeking a kiss on the first date. Here is what I did do on the first date ( assuming she dropped no hints about whether she wanted to be kissed ): At the end of the evening, we would be standing at the door. I would keep my elbows at my side and move both lower arms up to slightly above my waist with palms up. I would say " Goodnight," with my arms in just that position. I would make no move forward with my body; only my arms would move. My date would think this is the move and, if she wanted a kiss, she would move in and offer what she wanted: sometimes lips, sometimes a cheek. Sometimes she took my hand and we shook hands thanking each other for a lovely evening. No matter what happened, no one lost face.

I was more aggressive about kissing beginning with date # 2.

When I was in high school (quite awhile ago--Lyndon Johnson was president) I had a first date which seemed to go real well. She smiled a lot, cuddled up to me, that sort of thing. But I didn't try to kiss her. Every time I called after that for a second date, she was "busy". I never saw her again.

Twenty years later, after a marriage and divorce, I had another first date with no kiss. On this one, we didn't touch--not even fingertip to fingertip. She and I became a couple for nearly five years, living together for the last two.

No real point here. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

"Actually, it's probably because men are hard-wired to discount any woman who seems to easy."

I do believe this statement has merit. But, Amy, how do you explain situations like yours and Gregg's?

I'm so glad I'm done with all the dating bullshit anyway. What a load of phony crap. It's fun when you're 20-something but I don't know *anyone*, say 35 and older, who can tell me with a straight face that they are not deep down looking for something past that, i.e. a long-term, trouble-free relationship with a good friend first, AND lover second.

Oh, I must be a wimp, or a man without balls according to some people on this board. (Rolling eyes.)

In regards to the "sex on first date/too easy" debate, here's my two cents. As written above, it's only happened to me once. In that case it was very positive, as we cleared up all "does he/she like me" questions pretty darn quick.

Now, I don't go to bars and I have no interest in marriage. So my viewpoint is a little off-mainstream here. If sex isn't happening fairly soon in a courtship (next week is Date #3 for me, SOMETHING is happening), then we're just stuck in a weird mating dance back and forth.

Conversely, if a woman hasn't known me for more than 15 minutes and still offers sex, I MIGHT go for it. (Have to be honest here.) But more than likely I'd be thinking, "If she wants sex now, she's wanted it with lots of other guys. I don't have lead-lined condoms on me. No."

> Actually, it's probably because men
> are hard-wired to discount any woman
> who seems to easy.

The chirpy violence with which you issue these sociobio proverbs often amuses. (Specifically, there's an element of predation in male sexuality which ought not be so readily dismissed.)

That "actually," with the comma, is a nice touch.

So, are there no guys who would definitely rule out a woman as marriage material if she slept with him on the first date? We women hear this so much. Interesting if it's untrue.

I recently overheard some men talking about a woman who was so "easy" she slept with a guy they know right off. It didn't seem like a compliment -more like she was devalued for doing so.

But then, we're in our 40s. The rule used to be not before the 3rd date.

I've been asked and been kisses on a first date some were great curl your toes kisses some I'm glad ended quickly- for those not so great kissers. I've gotten hugs and kisses on the cheek which were sweet. I've had handshakes that meant I'm moveing on! I'd love to be surprised with an unexpected kiss.
S

"Is it the desperation and not the promiscuity that turns them off?"

Definitely the desperation. Of course, that all depends on how you go about it both before and afterward. But to a guy, it can be the reverse of "I paid for your dinner, now you owe me". All guys hear stories in their teenage years about psycho women who put out at the drop of a hat, and then make a claim on you.

On the first date nookie... It's more about the idea that you are willing to be so intimate with someone you don't know that well. If that is your standard, how do I know that you didn't do the same for another guy last night? How do I know any number of different things about you? Including the ones you aren't telling me?

After all people, you don't wear a condom on your toungue, don't you want to know a few things about the places you are sticking it? There may be reasons to be wary about a woman who is willing to bed right away, no matter how horny you are. Just because some people have dodged a bullet, doesn't mean you will. I think this is a spot where broad advice is to say: "be careful, the odds are against..."

I have several friends that serve as cautionary tales, to counter balance what worked for Amy and others.

It isn't the desperation per se' It's what does that desperation MEAN? If you are an Adonis that women swoon over walking down the street? Maybe the explanation is simple. If you are a regular guy, perhaps it's not.

On the question of respect... this isn't about me wanting your bod, this is about have you sent me any kind of signal that I might have it? TO say that men get mixed signals is an understatement. Because past performance is no guarantee of future returns. For the RIGHT guy, women would certainly violate some or all of their own rules about when they want to be kissed, or bedded etc... But that is a hindsight thing, you only know AFTER it worked.

From the guy's perspective it is entirely a gamble. Knowing the odds is completely dependent on the signals you are getting. This is where broad advice like "always at least try to kiss on the first date" is getting the cart before the horse.

The isn't about "idiot" men, this is about nonverbal communication in TWO different languages. Verbally it sounds later like:
"why didn't you try to kis me before?"
'I did try, you always turn away.'
"that means you are supposed to try harder."
'To most people that means, "no".'

This is where the subtlety and trial and error, seem to take forever. Every person is different, but generally woman are the gatekeepers. Respect is about trying to figure out exactly what the woman means by her actions and words, and often this isn't straightforward.

I chuckle at Amy's description of how Gregg persued her, and smile and think, "lucky boy, you." But he might have just as easily ended up with a knee to his groin or WORSE. What mix of signals told him he was good to go? We can't know that since so many were likely non-verbal.

Here is the other side of respect, and worth mentioning. I as a man should be respected for my choices as well. 'He didn't kiss me on the first date, he isn't interested.' Yeah? BULL. That is why he did all those other things on that date to make it fun, because he's not interested. Maybe, it's that when he showed you to your door, you stood there stiff and with crossed arms, even though you smiled a lot. even though you wanted to go out again. Best case is that means "maybe some other time."

Guys aren't the only ones who should be clear about what they want. It doesn't have to be that overt, but if I move towards you, and you stand stiff as a post? This means no. Best response ever at the end of the date? I touch her forearm, and slide my hand down to hers, and she places the other hand on my chest. The connections are happening. They continued because as I moved forward, she tilted her head. If she had turned her cheek instead, I would have kissed her there. In either case the move was being accepted.

If you are waiting all night for me to kiss you... from across the room? You are telling me no. This has tons to do with proximity. It isn't only men who do idiot things in this regard. Not by a longshot.

Listen to a Nashville song about closin' time! Men like wounded prey!

Swiss Army D, the consensus I hear here and elsewhere is that the man shoukd make the first move towards you, that he should move in a little. In your own description, you touched her arm and got a warm response. Therefore, if I'm waiting, smiling, arms loose head slightly tilted, and smiling, saying that I had a nice time, and he's the one leaning away, arms stiff, not making eye contact, then I would surmise that either he's not into me, or that he just doesn't know what to do. I accept that I won't make a first move. Amy is right, some guys need the balls. Some girls do, too!

Signals should definitely be clear and concise, and easy to pick up on from and by both sexes. And I love the person whose date called him a stalker. Very clear signal, especially about how a break-up would go!

> Signals should definitely be clear and
> concise, and easy to pick up on from
> and by both sexes.

Wrong planet. Ambiguity is the coin of the realm....

Seriously—

> the consensus I hear here and elsewhere is that

Consensus is often the last thing people are interested in at that moment, sometimes righteously. The feelings of others do not apply....

There's something to be said for the pre-emptive EuroKiss. It's a social commonplace in many cultures (you can blame it on your sister in law or something).
"So nice to see you!" (cheekkiss). It establishes some touch barriers, and sets a foundation for physical contact.
Just Sayin'.

I should have been more clear.

Amy, knowing what you do about women devaluing themselves in the eyes of men if they are too easy to get, and assuming that you were interested in keeping him around, why were you not concerned about having sex with Gregg before you even had your first date?

I am genuinely interested in the reasoning behind your actions. I have very tough standards where men are concerned, and will go for years without getting naked with one. But if a guy strikes my fancy, I am very "easy" to get, from his perspective. And saying to him that I don't do this sort of thing often (say, having sex before the first date) just seems lame and unbelievable.

Back when I was dating, a kiss meant the guy wanted to have sex with me at some point, which was a clear sign of what his future actions would be motivated by. I confused simple flattery with sexual attraction and the relationship never really got any deeper or "soulmate-esque" despite being together for 2 years and thinking I was inlove. (Mostly I was enjoying the attention, but wasn't paying attention to who I was or who he was.)

I'm married now to an unbelievably wonderful man, who is also my best friend and very satisfying romantic partner. When he first saw me at work (I was the newbie), he approached me confidently (but not aggressively) introduced himself, and shook my hand. He continued to say hi when he passed me around the office, accompanied me out around town (dates, I think they're called), but never made a move. He wasn't gay, or lacking in confidence. He liked me a lot, but never pressed. He liked my company and I liked his. There was a stretch of time where he dated another girl seriously, but that was only because I had moved for my job and didn't know when I'd be back in town. But I always liked him and he could always see that about me, so he kept me in his thoughts. Then one day it clicked that I wanted to be with him. I found him on Facebook and we caught up with each other... which led to marriage. :) To this day, he still lets me lead the relationship a bit, and doesn't pressure me. Just like Amy says, guys can be really simple-- all they really want is a woman who takes care of herself and is sweet to him. Our story might not be how most couples work out, but it worked for us.

Man I am glad to be out of all that! It is one of the few benefits of getting old.

A man asks a woman for a date. She says yes. That gives him the green light to kiss her. Men are simple. There is only one reason we ask you out. And it starts with a kiss. Just a lay to marraige. We want sex. Inviting you to dinner is the same as asking if we can kiss you. Yes means yes.

I've both asked and not asked and had mixed results with both approaches. It's a crap-shoot (roll the dice) either way, and it always will be.

What SwissArmyD said. Word.

I know this is probably a stupid question, but what does "word" mean? I've been wondering that for awhile.

It means about the same as "Amen, brother!".

word

Might as well say "I ALWAYS do this." At least you might make him laugh.
That is funny! I will definitely use it when/if the situation warrants.

I don't need a man enough to have to be careful. If you need a man, you should take precautions.

Basically you are saying that you liked him enough, without needing him, to risk appearing easily gotten and he like you enough to overlook that you were easily gotten.

Got it, thanks! :)

That's my feeling on the subject, and it's reassuring to have back-up from someone whose intellect I admire.

Do you know about cross cultural differences in this? It seems that things tend to progess much slower in the UK. For example a British couple I know told me that their relationship started after sharing an office for 6 months. When I suggested that this was very slow, they seemed surprised. An Irish friend living in the UK told me about a holiday trip abroad with her German (now ex) boyfriend (also living in the UK) and mentioned that she doesn't remember whether or not they had already kissed by the time they embarked on the trip as if it wasn't remarkable to go on a trip with a love interest before even kissing.

Do you know about cross cultural differences in this? It seems that things tend to progess much slower in the UK. For example a British couple I know told me that their relationship started after sharing an office for 6 months. When I suggested that this was very slow, they seemed surprised. An friend living in the UK told me about a holiday trip abroad with her German (now ex) boyfriend (also living in the UK) and mentioned that she doesn't remember whether or not they had already kissed by the time they embarked on the trip as if it wasn't remarkable to go on a trip with a love interest before even kissing.

For our first date, my boyfriend and I met in a local park for a game of scrabble. As we were setting up the board, sprawled out on the grass, he asked, "So, loser makes out with the winner?"
It was the perfect date; I discovered his intellect and humor and an intense physical attraction. I knew I was head over heels when I braved August heat and gnats to keep up the lip-locking.

Dutton covered some of this here:

Our actual direct ancestors, male and female, were the ones who were chosen by each other.

Darwin's theory of sexual selection has disquieted and irritated many otherwise sympathetic evolutionary theorists because, I suspect, it allows purposes and intentions back into evolution through an unlocked side door[...]

[I]t is absolutely clear that with the human race, sexual selection describes a revived evolutionary teleology. Though it is directed toward other human beings, it is as purposive as the domestication of those wolf descendents that became familiar household pets.

Every Pleistocene man who chose to bed, protect, and provision a woman because she struck him as, say, witty and healthy, and because her eyes lit up in the presence of children, along with every woman who chose a man because of his hunting skills, fine sense of humor, and generosity, was making a rational, intentional choice that in the end built much of the human personality as we now know it.