Speaking from my own experience only Amy (and accepting that all women will not positively react the same way to any given approach)........ "Interesting and decent"? That certainly helps. I've found combining "decent and interesting" with being what I will call a wise guy is the more winning formula. It's a delicate balance between showing nice and showing the edgier stuff. That, though, is what I have seen work repeatedly (again just based on my own experience). And that's what, I think, AskMen.com is saying in a roundabout way. Possibly some science behind the positive results of that delicate balance?

Now does that qualify me as "tricking them" (and therefore a loser)? I never stopped to think that deeply on it. I guess I saw it as the much more simplistic 'that's just how it works'. However, isn't putting your best foot forward (when that is not anywhere near what you really act like day to day) tricking? Taking much much more time than normal (and much more time than it will be in the not too distant future) to do hair-makeup-clothes-etc a form of tricking?

Sorry, Obviously I'm not a woman but figured I'd throw in my two cents anyway....

I think part of the problem is that pickup lines come off as...lines. For me, sounding scripted does not work in your favor. It comes off to me like I'm one in a succession of women you've tried those lines on. Which may be true, but you shouldn't sound like it is.

I have to say, if a man came up to me and said that thing about my shoes showing off my calves, I'd probably be dumb with shock before compulsively laughing in his face. That's a ridiculous line. I'm all for starting a conversation with a compliment, but come on.

The "negging" thing disgusts me. It's based on the principle that it puts a woman off her game and she therefore wants to work to get your approval. Ick. Although I guess it'd work if you want a woman whose self-esteem is so low that she'd fall for that. I'll take myself out of the running, thanks.

TW, I think there's a distinction between "tricking" and simply presenting yourself well. Your description of what you do sounds more like you've cultivated a persona when it comes to approaching women, which is fine. You want to present yourself in the best, most effective way possible. But using canned lines like those suggested is where the "tricking" thing comes into play.

There's a difference as well between having a conversation opener (asking about the book she's reading, complimenting her appearance [but not the way her shoes show off her calves], asking if she works in the area, etc.) and using a line. You want your opener to be engaging, open-ended, and specific to her, but at the same time you don't want to sound like you read one of those magazine articles on how to pick up women (even if it's true). We emotionally healthy women appreciate the difference, believe me. I think you have the right idea in that you want to put your best foot forward. And also the fact that most of us appreciate wit, not canned jokes.

Losers and their lines, pathetic.

When I'm standing next to a woman I'd like to get to know a little better I use the following line:

"Hi, how's it going tonight?"

I get one of two reactions:

1. "Fine, thanks." Turns her back to me.

OR

2. "Great, I just love ..." Turns to face me full-on.

Of course, with number 2, I now actually have to keep her interested. Not hard, really. Ask her a question or two about herself, and she'll gladly tell you, and will carry 75% of the conversational load.

My god, men and women have been hooking for 100,000 years. There's nothing complicated about it. Show a woman that there's a little bit there, and she'll come back with the same.

Based on what I have seen on TV - the pickup artist, etc - and a little in real life. The guys who are good at don't come off as using lines.

On of those programs like Dateline did a show and on it they found that negging was very affect for certain guys...IRC, all the most affective guys used it. It appeared to me like it made the girls want to talk to them... not sure why.

Much better suggestion for picking up girls -- I think -- is developing into somebody interesting and decent who people want to talk to.

One huge problem with that...how do they know you are a decent and somebody interesting? They would have to talk to you for awhile. How do they get to the stage? Something interesting has to be done right upfront -- that is what the negging is about - what gets these women interested? the negging. Amy's suggestion lacks a bootstrap.

K. Devils advocate moment here.

Q. What is the purpose of the player?
A. To get laid. Not to go on a date, not to win her heart, just to open her legs.

So, with that understood, lets think about this for a moment.

If a "player" uses lines that are lame and don't work, he's not achieving his goal.

Now the cliched player using the same cornball horrible horrible lines they use in horrible horrible stories and shows is an old character. But is it accurate?

A. No. Duh. The player is basically out of the game. A player changes up his play for chicks and discards lines, methods, and approaches that don't work, and comes up with new ones. Eventually, he finds ones that do work.

Q. So if players find and use methods that work, and they get laid by and have the company of women they consider desirable, can we call them "losers"?

A. I think not. If anyone would be the losers in that equation, it would be the chicks getting nailed that are expecting a call back the next morning.

Q. What makes players successful?

A. Volume. Going after one woman in a room and then no other if that one doesn't pan out is like being the rat that got left behind in that parable "Who moved my cheese?" The player will go up to his first choice...then his second, then his third. To a player, pussy is replacable.

Q. So what does that mean?

A. It means that you ladies (Yes Miss Alkon I must include you in this statement) who say "that would never work on me" sort of thing, are not "the one that got away" but rather, "the one on the way to the next one".

Q. So does it work?

A. Fraid so. The one that rejects the "player" might feel good about having "risen above that" but the player just goes to the next one, and those techniques...if they survive to get written about, then yes ladies, they are working. For the one that turns him down, or even the dozen, there are others lining up to be seduced.

Q. And how do I know these things?

A. You know those friends of yours who had one night stands or flings and wondered how it ended so quickly? The guys that were nailing them have friends too.

Do you know what the funny thing about all this is?

Ladies, most of you think you can spot a player, but you're only catching the obvious ones. Next time you go into a bar, take a corner seat and look for a group of guys. Watch one break off from the group and go up to a woman. (Most players don't like to work alone, showing skills to his friends is part of the fun) If you see the other men change their focus to watch, THEN you are likely wathing a player.

And chances are, most of you are seeing yourself at some point in your past also.

-----------------

And before somebody asks if I've done any of that, well I've been known to play the field in some of my younger years, though unlike the player the pursuit of the wench was rarely a goal, just find one interesting and flirt, see where it goes. Sure its fun to have a new ride, but its better when you want her there the next morning.

>>TW, I think there's a distinction between "tricking" and simply presenting yourself well. Your description of what you do sounds more like you've cultivated a persona when it comes to approaching women, which is fine. You want to present yourself in the best, most effective way possible. But using canned lines like those suggested is where the "tricking" thing comes into play.

Numbersix, you are correct about the canned lines (which I should have pointed out originally). If AskMen is saying literally "use these lines" (which I did not read very far into their advice), that's extremely lame (about on par with a comical "how to pick up hot chicks in 5 easy steps" book).
As far as putting your best foot forward...if that best foot forward is being something that is not representative of what someone will be in the not too distant future, is there not some vague form of trickery there? As Chris Rock put it, "When you meet somebody for the first time, you’re not meeting them. You’re meeting their representative!".

The technique of negging is all over the Net and has been demonstrated on popular TV shows like "How I Met Your Mother."

I'm so aware of it now, it /couldn't/ work on me anymore. I know what the pick-up artist is doing and find him comical. Won't this eventually become the case for most women?

ACTUAL neg I have had directed at me: "You remind me of Gisele Bundchen. Your nose is just bigger."

I make a distinction between "negging," which is intended to make the target less secure, and teasing, which is very appealing. I'm very tall and was wearing platform shoes one night, and a guy said, "Don't fall off your shoes, Shorty." That worked for me!

"If she licks her lips (consciously or not), runs her hands through or shakes out her hair, or, one of my favorites, plays with her earlobe, she's sending you buying signals."

I'm not sure how true this is, guys. All these "buying signals" in magazines seem kind of bogus to me. Maybe her ear is just itching...or you remind her of scabies.

I can honestly say I've never been picked up by a guy that I didn't know within the first few seconds that I wanted to be picked up by. All the "tricks" in the world won't work unless there's an immediate attraction, so they shouldn't be overemphasized.

The best thing you can do, as Amy says, is work on yourself. Get fit, improve your wardrobe...get fit...improve your mind, get a good haircut and a well-paying job...and did I mention get fit?

If you're physically attractive, it won't matter that much if you say the silliest thing to a woman. We'll forgive you and think it's cute.

To me, these "tricks" are really for losers who want to believe there's a shortcut to getting laid other than being layable.

"Don't fall off your shoes, Shorty." That worked for me!

This is humor, spontaneous cleverness, if a bit asshole-ish, and different from the other insults.

Well, it's better than the heyday of my single days, when men came up and said, "what's your sign?" or "wanna do a line?" (Oh, wait; that one was OK!)

I think PUA and that whole neg thing are pretty stupid, but women do fall for things like that, especially if a guy's attractive. He can be a little less attractive depending on how many lemon drops she's had.

But a lot of people are really awkward when it comes to just chatting with someone, even more so if they're chatting with a purpose, like hoping to get a phone number.

It isn't rocket science, really: A nice sense of humor, something interesting to say and some humility work all the time — having a great bod and face help, of course.

I couldn't get through this article without envisioning the author wearing a leisure suit with gold chains, and looking astonishingly like Larry from "Three's Company".

That, and the bit about having a great wingman but not so great as to distract from you? Is that like the pretty girl hanging out with "blah" or even ugly friends so as to enhance her appearance?

"interesting and decent" was a little lame (I was tired last night). A guy needs to be clever or have something to say to impress me. A guy who says stuff like this just seems like a pathetic asshole.

I think the positive aspect of articles like this is that they do get guys talking to women. There were many times when I saw a cute guy that I wished would approach me, but he was too shy, and I was too shy, so we both missed the opportunity.

So some of the ideas are good, like getting used to chatting up strangers, but most of this is only effective along with the other elements.

It's like all the Cosmo articles that tell women how to catch a man....mirror his movements, ask him about himself, lick your lips, play with your hair (or scratch your earlobes?)

Yes, those moves will probably work if you're attractive, but so will doing virtually nothing most of the time.

Yet, if you're 50 pds overweight, they won't work at all (unless you're out with a guy who's 100 pds overweight, and probably not even then because he wants a skinny girlfriend).

The most helpful Cosmo advice for women is how to become more physically attractive.

Seems to me that it's all about hitting the right balance: confident but not conceited, interested but not desperate, funny but not cheesy. The right balance depends on the the particular woman.

I've never used it, but my sense is that stuff like the "neg" works best with women who project as though they're super confident, but are actually insecure. The "neg" punctures their veneer and changes the power dynamic that these women are accustomed to. Struggling wanna-be actresses or models in LA or NYC would be great targets for it. Confident women who have their shit together, not so much.

Robert's right. These methods require a high number of contacts to be effective, which raises the question of whether there's a false effect assumed. That is, it may not be the PUA's mad skills, but simply the fact that he's speaking to so many women. It's not unlikely that a less manipulative tactic, with as many encounters, would be as effective, or more so.

In a study (I don't have the link), women were asked about what attracted them to men in a bar. They valued confidence shading into arrogance. They hated a hesitant man, and they evaluated this as soon as men came into the room.

In the study, men were asked to approach women in their usual way, and later were asked to approach in a way that was aggressive and intrusive, like leading men in a movie. The men reported that they felt uncomfortable about being so forward, and the women reported that they liked the more forward approach.

This may explain some of the observation that girls like "bad boys". Most don't want criminals, but they are very attracted to the independence and confidence that the tough guys give off. Confidence with brains was a winner.

The "neg" isn't likely to work with women who've been in abusive relationships. They will view it as a warning sign. If you're subtly putting me down in our first meeting, I'd figure it could only get worse from there.

Andrew, we all like not having to work hard to attain something. Women prefer the aggressive guys because it means we have to put ourselves out there less. The risk of rejection is lower, and since women are usually the pursued ones, we have less experience with outright rejection. We're usually more afraid of it than guys are.

Still, there's confidence and then there's arrogance. As women get older, we start to understand the difference. One is a good trait in a partner and the other generally makes for a miserable reationship.

If a guy came up to me and "negged" (proper use of the word?) I'd probably rolls my eyes or laugh. It's lame. You look lame. You are lame.

Try smiling and making eye contact. If she smiles back and looks at you a few times, go say hi. That's all you need to do. No need to sweat it and construct an elaborate verbal sabotage.

Guys who genuinely do that "line" stuff care too much about their image and trying to construct the persona others see. If you're picking up chicks with lines, because you're not confident and think that's how it's done, do you really want them to think you're a phony baloney?

There is a fine line between confidence, arrogance, and egotism. And unfortunately, they usually come packaged as a set. You'll invariably have to spend some time with the guy to see which of these traits is dominant.

But as loveleysoul says, it's all about looks. The survey that says women find confident men more attractive is misleading. In general, attractive men are more confident and women are reacting to this combination (and visa-versa.)

I first heard of negging from a male friend. He told me that it was a strategy for our mutual friend (who is a man-whore, so maybe it does work sometimes).

He said that it was supposed to put hot girls on the defensive since they weren't used to being treated that way. I think it's a dick move and have a hard time understanding how it works. If some guy did that to me, I'd just think he was a jerk.

The other advice the writer gives seems sound-chatting up strangers, talking to women in places other than bars/clubs.

I was in college when I got this line in a bar:
"Holy Hooters Batman!"

I laughed and gave him points for originality. Then I walked away.

Seduction advice can be tricky to write and read, because in any romantic scenario, there are three perspectives: how the male feels inside his head, how the woman feels inside her head and how the scene looks to an outside observer. Often these perspectives are in conflict.

Women, like Amy, who have been approached by men know whether they liked it or not and whether they felt attracted or not i.e. whether the line, tactic or attitude worked or not. But that is often a poor guide for coaching men because women have no idea what is going on inside of the man's head.

Take the example of "Don't fall off your shoes, Shorty." You say that this is "humor, spontaneous cleverness, if a bit asshole-ish." And you are right, in that as a woman you get to decide if you want to continue talking to this guy. But to a lot of inexperienced men, saying that line feels like insulting a woman. Even though it is not. Why? Because they have a poor sense of what is actually insulting/romantic/playful and they feel uncomfortable saying what is actually OK. We all have incorrect beliefs about how the world works that cause us to make mistakes. So if you are trying to coach a guy, when you say "Insult her" what you mean is "Say this, even though it feels to you like an insult." The seduction literature is a collective effort of men to help each other break through awkwardness and incompetence with women. And a lot of times, awkwardness comes from an incorrect sense of what is appropriate or not. You have to read this advice and material from the perspective of a man who is awkward with women and trying to fix that, not as a woman being approached and deciding whether she likes the guy or not.

Another reason why online seduction advice seems so bad is that few of these gurus are competent dramatists. They know that there is much more to picking up women than one silly line. But they are incapable of communicating that in words. And all that women read is that one line and you imagine a creepy dude slinking up to you and spouting off a cheesy pun. Yet if you saw a video of these gurus in action, interacting with women, you wouldn't find them that objectionable - you'd probably admire their skills - and they would tell you that is what they were trying to communicate, but failed to do so.

Watch videos of these guys, especially when they "neg", and I think you will change your opinion

It is a numbers game. pure and simple, so the more cards you play the higher the chances for anything in this realm.8 years ago when I got divorced I did the early speed dating just to get to be able to even talk to women again.Then I worked all angles shamelessly, one month I went on 30 dates.

I also read the link of "What women to avoid", that one was pretty funny, and pretty correct.

P.S.
I was the one that said "no" way more often than not.
Found a solid keeper on the other side of the country, married her.

SingleSnake's favorite line from the past (to be used when being utterly shut down and/or ignored):

"Allright, but quit beggin already. Its embarrassing."

Shamelessly stolen from Michael J Fox in "Secret of My Success."

Success rate - roughly 50%

Heh, whenever I see stuff like this, it usually makes the bull-o-meter dance, but I find the women commenting on it, esp. over at askmen, to be quite amusing...

there are so many rules and negations to rules for both men and women to follow, it's a wonder mating still happens, in some ways. but obviously instinct is quite strong...

the funniest one to me was "complement me on my calves, and I'll laugh in your face..." Well sure, using that clunky line, yes, but you don't want me to think you have nice gams? The why're you wearing that short skirt and stillettos? If you can't take a complement that is simple and direct, what're you telling me? That you are entirely too much trouble to figure out.

I rally can't stand the quantity method, though. It sucks to get rejected that often, and with quantity, you win more often but you get rejected a LOT more. Who needs that? The downside is also that women become more defensive in general, so even saying hi get's you a dirty look.

The best part about the arrogant guy in the room, is I'm not him... so after he's pissed off a number of women, I get to joke about it with them... "it's amazing he fit through the door, with an ego that big..."

Players help me stand out from the crowd, what's wrong with that? :evil:

Swiss, I just think "calves" is a funny word. If a guy said I had great legs, that would be different somehow. Not sure why. Calves are a part of our legs, sure, but I don't think most women want to believe they stand out enough to be foremost in a compliment. If you're noticing our calves, rather than our legs as a whole, we'll assume you mean they look fat.

I'm about the worst pick-up artist on the planet, but even I know that reading from a script doesn't work. (Unless you can do it ironically, but I don't think I'd make it halfway through without laughing and ruining the whole bit.) I'm long since retired from the game, but even when I was still in it, I don't know if I could tell you what worked... my wife says she fell for me on our first date, but I don't recall doing anything special.

David writes: "Ask her a question or two about herself"

Do you know, it really is that simple. I was always very bashful about asking women out, but that simple hint works. Obviously, it helps if you are in a context where questions come naturally - doing some activity together.

People like to talk about themselves - and like to think others are interested in them. If you want to get to know someone else, you are interested in them. So...

Open Question to All Women:

I've long sensed that some women prefer to have some sort of "excuse" before sleeping with some guy they've just recently met. Examples:

- "He got me drunk and then took advantage of me."

- "He was so charming initially and I was just overwhelmed by the attention."

Not necessarily with yourselves, but with other women you know, do you agree or disagree with the "excuse" theory I've proffered?

The most effective pickup line: "Hey, babe. Check out my thick wallet."

I don't need an excuse. Can't speak for others. Younger women may need to justify it more than older women.

Of course, sometimes women are embarrassed to tell each other that they just hopped into bed with a guy because it seems reckless. I have friends who will admit it openly to me - that they just found a guy really hot or were horny or whatever - but they might tell a different story in different company.

lovelysoul: "Swiss, I just think "calves" is a funny word. If a guy said I had great legs, that would be different somehow. Not sure why. Calves are a part of our legs, sure, but I don't think most women want to believe they stand out enough to be foremost in a compliment. If you're noticing our calves, rather than our legs as a whole, we'll assume you mean they look fat."

Well, I happen to have amazing legs, and calves to die for ;-) At least until I gained the extra 30 pounds due to my thyroid condition. My calves have been equally complimented by men and women, locals and foreigners, young and old. But NEVER as a first liner, not even on a first date!

It is usually when the relationship becomes more intimate that men 'confess' that one of my best features are my legs/calves, and that they were one of the reasons why they felt attracted to me in the first place.

If some loser came by and told me something like 'hey, nice calves!' as a chat opener, I would be offended and disgusted, while telling him "neeeever gonna happen". Unless, of course, he were the guy who played Sawyer in the now-extinct "Lost". I would faint to whatever he'd say, even if he's only reciting the Taco Bell menu...

Yeah, Lourdesv, I'd probably think a guy was "negging" me if he complimented my calves first. Mine are ok, but there's a lot nicer features to notice, so I'd figure he was purposely picking an obscure body part to make me insecure. What? You don't like my eyes..my face...my boobs? I've got more than just calves, buster...

Ok, I can kinda see how the "neg" might work.

"Open Question to All Women:

I've long sensed that some women prefer to have some sort of "excuse" before sleeping with some guy they've just recently met."

Believe it or not, I've never slept with some guy I've just recently met. Not that I'm prude or something, but the idea of exposing my naked body to an almost stranger doesn't seem right to me. Even with my extra pounds, my body means everything to me, and if I'm having sex, then it's because I feel attracted enough to the guy, and the guy somehow... "deserves me", to put it in some way.

It would take a hell of a guy to convince me to have sex right away. Maybe the one I mentioned in my earlier post, that Sawyer from "Lost" ;-)

"I'd figure he was purposely picking an obscure body part to make me insecure."

Yeah, I see your point, too, it sounds like saying "nice elbows" as a compliment...

No offense to all the lady commenters professing immunity to pick-up lines, but . . .

Asking a woman whether a particular pickup line works is like asking a baseball if a particular batting stance works.

You're better off asking Derek Jeter.

Truth is these lines DO work, even if their only utility is to embolden otherwise shy suitors. Whether they work in any particular context depends on the aptitude of the deliverer.

I agree, Snakeman. They DO work....for great looking, successful guys...but so would just breathing. Derek Jeter would tell you he could read the phone book and it would work.

The question is whether these lines and tricks work for shy, dorky guys, and my guess is that they're usually better off saying something genuine rather than manipulative.

see, this is a lot about degrees... and yeah maybe not an initial line on the calves, but...
calves are NOT obscure, they are the one part of your leg I can usually see if in a dress or capris, and not your knees which really are obscure, and a lot of women hate anyway. Meanwhile if I'm chatting up thighs, you are probably wondering where that leads to. er, Maybe you don't know me well enough for that yet?

Mentioning a physical attribute on a woman is kinda fraught, because if she doesn't happen to like that thing? suddenly even more self conscious about it. Obviously I can't mention you are stacked, unless I already know you well, hair is an absolute nightmare to talk about because there are too many possibilities as to what you like, and a lot of them aren't really verbal.

A well turned calf is easier to talk about than a well proportioned bottom, but it indicates that indeed I am checking you out.

The caveat is, that by that time in the conversation, I feel comfortable enough to let you know that and have decided that you won't freak out about it. It's not like I can mention that the skin below your collarbone is giving me a nose bleed, right?

Of course, most women will always proclaim themselves immune to such things...and that only 'losers' would "resort to pickup lines."

But read carefully...note the definition of "negging" that Amy linked to on Wiki...

"playful insults"

Key word being PLAYFUL.

Now let's think of a good examples of "negging" being used by a man hitting on a woman.

Recall Han Solo and Princess Leia in the Empire Strikes Back. Note how Han over-exaggerates and mocks Leia at every turn regarding her status as royalty during their heavy flirtations. "Why yes, your highness!" said with a smirk and rolling eyes.

This is "negging."

Now is this "really" tricking a woman into bed? Or is it really just a way for men to come up with a technical jargon to try and educate clueless men on how to interact and flirt with women?

This is essentially what the entire "Pickup Artist" movement on the internet is all about.

Women have endless magazines, talk shows and gossip circles to help each other to be "more attractive" and "snag" a man.

But when Men get together and try to help each other get better in picking up women...they're "losers" and "manipulative deceivers" tricking women into bed? By that standard, makeup, push up bras and control tops are all manipulative deceits as well!

Oh the solipsism of the female mind!

Fact of the matter is this: we live in a culture steeped in misandry. A 'you go girl' society. One in which Maria Shriver exultantly declared is a "Woman's Nation!"

We men are raised by a mass media and institutional reinforcement to put women up on a pedestal, and "get in touch with our feminine sides" and to supplicate and be a "nice guy." We are told to "just be ourselves." And than when a guy follows this advice...he's utterly bewildered that all the women he's interested in gives him the old "Lets Just Be Friends" speech.

Than she comes back to him and puts her head on his shoulder and cries to him about how that jerk of boyfriend screwed her over.

Most "nice guys" (who follow the advice of women, such as all you ladies and your advice to men on how to get women in this thread perfectly demonstrate...) never realize what they're doing wrong. They follow the script our feminist-driven society tells them they should...and end up nothing more than emotional tampons for the women they desire, who are dating the men that DON'T pedestalize women.

What most women never consciously realize is that while men's attraction is based on visual stimulus...women's is far more cued towards HYPERGAMY.

Women marry UP.

In other words, NO WOMAN will sleep with a man she does not look up to and respect. No woman lusts a man she can rule.

This is why women 'eat up' the "neg" or playful teasing. It shows that the man is not utterly spineless, deferential and trying to be a "nice guy" to try and get a woman into bed. He's not afraid to upset or offend her.

This plays on the female's biological attraction based on hypergamy.

OFFTOPIC:

I'm middle-aged, but still not old enough. Who the Hell is/was Lillian Bond?

(Not reading any comments here. I offend women long before I get them into bed.)

"Just be yourself" only works if you're a person worth being. It rarely works for wimps, idiots, or guys with beer guts the size of Montana. That's why you're better off putting the work into yourselves - your mind, physique, self-confidence and financial stability. Those work with almost EVERY woman.

We're not suggesting that you shouldn't learn some smooth opening lines, but you won't need so many tricks if you do that work first.

And women, for the most part, know this. We can learn and practice all the coy tricks in the world, but unless we're attractive, they won't help us lure a man. That's why we have magazines devoted almost entirely to appearance, and we buy cosmetics by the bundle.

The advice these guys are giving makes it sound like all a less attractive guy needs is a few great pickup lines and manipulative techniques, but that's misleading.

If Derek Jeter compliments our calves, we'll swoon. An average guy? Not so much.

Think about it: Does it really matter what moves an unattractive woman puts on you?

The advice these guys are giving makes it sound like all a less attractive guy needs is a few great pickup lines and manipulative techniques, but that's misleading.

No "pickup artist" would ever say all a guy needs is a few great lines.

But getting men to realize that acting like they have to be a woman's BFF and feed her an endless stream of compliments and offers of service is the fast track to "Lets Just Be Friends" land, is the first step that many, many men brainwashed by our culture need to take.

Hell yes, neg that woman!

If Derek Jeter compliments our calves, we'll swoon. An average guy? Not so much.

Why thank you..you just corroborated my explanation of female hypergamy perfectly.

My point is that when we say we "never fall for pickup lines", we're thinking of the awkward, unattractive guys who've tried to pick us up by saying something corny. The attractive men who most likely DID pick us up never seem to be using lines. They may be, but we're so attracted to them that all we hear is cute and original.

Just as I'm sure a hot girl can say or do just about anything to get your attention relative to a less hot girl.

I have to agree with snakeman on this subject, although I do find it interesting how many of the women here are responding to this topic.

I’d like to bring up a few things to think about.

Why is it that when attraction is discussed here with regard to women attracting men, it is considered fair play (or even necessary) to artificially adjust ones appearance and alter ones behavioral inclinations to generate greater desire within a potential suitor? For example, I have seen on numerous occasions it asserted that women should only flirt in a way that is plausibly deniable until the guy works up the nerve to make the first overt move. I have also seen it asserted here that for women should not be overly available, always making the guy work for her attention.

I must stress here that these strategies are considered to be very effective by those who post about them, including Amy. So effective in fact that to suggest a different course of action is considered foolish.

Now I must point out that all of these strategies are anything but genuine. They are crafted specifically to generate heightened desire within a suitor by pushing certain buttons and tweaking certain knobs within their psychological and physiological makeup.

Yet somehow when we flip the coin over and attraction is discussed here with regard to men attracting women, it is somehow considered unfair, icky, and ineffective for men to be anything but perfectly genuine in how they approach dating.

I suspect part of the issue here is that what pick up artists are very good at is pushing buttons and turning knobs that create an attraction that women want to feel is always real, that if they are attracted to someone it is because this person is genuinely the way they have been presented and not simply putting on a clever act.

The way I see it, using clever pick up strategies to be more successful at attracting women is no more noble or offensive than using a wonder bra to be more successful at attracting men.

While it might be nice for women to corner the market on artificial attraction, this is an unrealistic and unfair expectation in my opinion.

damn, Crid, now my nose is bleeding...

Most women who encounter the "PUA" area of the internet have the same reaction you do. Disbelief. You immediately think of the dorky idiot using canned lines and thinking "no ways would that work on me!"

That's really not what it's about.

If you take the time to read up on the topic, in depth, you would understand that the reality of the "PUA" advice is based on a set of principles that rely on a set of building blocks for men to crack the code on women's attraction cues.

Everyone knows that some hot T&A is the primary attraction cue for men.

What most people don't understand is that for women, while visual looks are important, social dominance and hierarchy are far more important. STATUS.

So when a man first approaches a woman, the very first impression he HAS to make, is one of higher social status relative to her...otherwise, he's got no shot.

Hot women have people telling them every day of their lives how beautiful they are. They have orbiters of clueless men who try to "nice guy" their way into romance with her. These are the guys she walks all over without a second thought...or, she lets down "nicely" with the "lets just be friends" speech.

Does this mean any old schlub has it made by using a few cheesy lines? Hell no.

The real point behind the "PUA" philosophy is to "de-pedestalize" women in the minds of the man trying to learn why he's a failure at attracting women. Than it's to develop the kind of characteristics that women find attractive...to the point where they become in intrinsic part of his own personality.

@lovelysoul - I think you miss the point of my analogy. Ball = Woman. Derek Jeter = Any Successful Pick-up Artist. If you're a socially awkward single guy, you're much better off emulating the latter than asking the former how to romance women. The Ball has no conscious idea why its been hit for a Home Run. Frankly, neither do most women.

@Neg Man - pretty much nailing it left and right. Only thing I'd add is that the serious PUA community also provides some very healthy friendships and support for its constituent men. Its particularly geared towards guys who weren't already captain of the football team and who otherwise weren't raised to know how to enjoy being a guy. That sense of comraderie is almost more valuable than the resulting sex.

Almost.

I wouldn't know, snakeman. To tell the truth, I'm a "reformed" nice guy...but I never joined a PUA community.

I was LJBF'd more times than I care to remember.

I just did a lot of reading in the "PUA blogosphere" and saw the truths it was founded on play out in real life, once I had my eyes opened to the ideas and concepts.

I never paid a cent for a book, or attended a workshop or joined any groups or any of that other stuff.

I just read up websites on topics like hypergamy, shit-tests, negging, DHV, one-itis etc. and began trying to apply the concepts and principles out in my own life.

Dramatic difference.

Real world results are very convincing.

What most men never realize (and even many women) is that women are intuitively a thousand times more aware than men of non-verbal cues; like body language, posture, facial expressions, timbre of your voice....your charisma - your presence.

These are the traits women intuitively pick up on in mere seconds upon first meeting. These are the things she "reads" and immediately forms a "feeling" about any approaching man.

Most clueless men come across with a "I'm a nice guy, I will do anything for a moment with you, oh Goddess!"

This attitude sends out the all of the attendant non-verbal cues of lower social status.

Women's natural reaction to this? "Creepy!"

Amy,

I'm not sure if what you and Neg Man are saying is really the same.

When you are saying this for example:

"A guy who's got something to him can just say hello and something that naturally occurs to him."

But what does this really mean? A guy that has "something to him" just says something that "naturally" occurs to him?

In other words, a catch should just be himself, and a guy that doesn't have anything to him should be obvious enough that any woman can easily pick him out immediately.

That is fine and all, but this isn't what you would advise a woman to do when it comes to attracting a man.

You would not and do not advise women to just be themselves and do what comes naturally in all instances. You advise them for example never to ask a guy out on a date if that were her natural inclination. You would advise her to wear something sexy that accentuates her physical assets even if it was her natural inclination to wear something frumpy and visually unappealing.

I’m not sure why it is so off putting to you that men might use slightly less than genuine methods to attract women when we all expect and accept that women use slightly less than genuine methods to attract men.

No one here is advocating that men “trick” or “deceive” women with outright lies. However, using techniques and methods of communicating that don’t come naturally doesn’t really seem more objectionable to me than getting plastic surgery.

I think the padded bra is an analogy. Some guys may be successful ACTING like they have higher status, just as some women may be successful showing bigger boobs than they really have, but this only works for so long. Of course, if your goal is only to be bedded for a night, it makes no difference. So, in that respect, this PUA advice may be helpful. But if the goal is to translate that into a more meaningful, long-term relationship, you're better off being honest. Not "I'm a nice guy who'll do anything for you" kind of nice because nobody - male or female - wants a doormat.

Kara, I think the difference is that most men don't care if a woman has had plastic surgery - breast implants, though perhaps not as ideal as natural breasts to many men - wouldn't be such a dealbreaker. The bottom line for men is that she's considered attractive - real or fake. That increases the male's status among his peers and society in general.

But, if a guy represents himself to be of much higher status than he really is, and then his lower status is ultimately revealed, that decreases status for any woman sleeping with him. So, that deception results in greater social consequences and a sense of loss for the female.

Basically, because of millions of years of evolution, women view their sexuality as a prize they own and men view it as a prize to take. When men take that prize through deception, it seems much worse. Like stealing.

you have to be a guy women would want.

And this is the entire point of the "PUA Community." Most guys raised in our culture are told how to be the "guy women would want." But the cultural cues and advice we are all indoctrinated with actually steers us towards the guy women want to "Lets Just Be Friends" with.

For this to work for any man, they have to actually "de-program" from all this cultural conditioning. They have to take ALL women off of the pedestal's in their own minds eye before they could even begin to hope to make things like pickup lines actually work.

Sure, maybe you can chip one off from the herd by applying trickery, but you're more likely to be successful at that if you're not telegraphing loser-guy to begin with.

Trickery will never get anyone anywhere (unless you trick her into drinking some GHB). A good opening line delivered just right may get the guy in the door...but if he becomes awkward and socially retarded and cannot sustain the conversation despite having a successful opening...it won't matter. You women are too finally attuned to social interactions to be fooled for long.

The key here is what the PUA community calls "fake it until you make it." In other words, when men first start trying to "neg" women, they feel awkward and stupid and dumb inside. But once they experience even a little bit of success with it, their confidence will begin to grow. Practice makes perfect. Before you know it, you're no longer faking it. Than you appear to be a "natural."

A guy who's got something to him can just say hello and something that naturally occurs to him.

You might be surprised to learn how many men that appear "natural" had to in fact practice approaching strange, beautiful women, and blow it and get rejected numerous times before they start to become "natural."

As for being teased -- I love that. But, if a guy doesn't have smarts and a sense of humor, it's going to come off offensive or pathetic.

And this is the very heart of the matter...of course you love to be teased. It's verbal sparring...the creation of sexual tension that boosts attraction.

I remember watching the Empire Strikes Back when I was a young boy, and was completely mystified by why Han Solo was saying such mean things to Princess Leia..and yet they ended up making out.

It was only as an adult man, and reading up on all of this PUA stuff that I had that "aha!" moment and put it all together. Han Solo was a criminal bootlegger, Princess Leia was royalty. He didn't seduce her by being all deferential and worshipful and in awe of her beauty...

When people focus on the 'pickup lines' itself, without considering the manner in which the guy saying it presents it...of course it sounds cheesy and most women think "that would never work with me."

It's not some parlor trick. It's not a crass manipulation to "fool" a woman. It's an entire sea-change in a guys mindset.

Want to see precisely what I'm referring to?

I just found this website, Heartless Bitches International, that has a rant about "nice guys."

The "nice guy" she's bitching about? This is the kind of guy our society by and large programs men to be like. I know...I was one of 'em.

Why Nice Guys are Often Such Losers.

"Nice Guys go overboard. They bring roses to a "lets get together for coffee" date. They try to buy her affections with presents and fancy things. They think they know about romance, but their timing is all wrong, and they either come-on too strong, too hard and too fast, OR, they are so shy and unassertive, that they hang around pretending to be "friends", in the hope that somehow, someway, they will get the courage up to ask her out for a "date".

They are so desperate to please that they put aside their own needs, and place the object of their desire on a pedestal. Instead of appreciating her, they worship her. We are only human, and pedestals are narrow, confining places to be -- not to mention the fact that we tend to fall off of them.

They cling to her, and want to be "one" with her for fear that if she is out of sight, she may disappear or become attracted to someone else. A Nice Guy often has trouble with emotional intimacy, because he believes that if she learns about the REAL person inside, she will no longer love him.

Nice Guys are always asking HER to make the decisions. They think it's being equitable, but it puts an unfair burden of responsibility on her, and gives him the opportunity to blame her if the decision was an unwise one.

Nice Guys rarely speak up when something bothers them, and rarely state clearly what it is they want, need and expect. They fear that any kind of conflict might spell the end of the relationship. Instead of compromising and negotiating, they repeatedly "give in". When she doesn't appreciate their sacrifice, they will complain that, "Everything I did, I did for her.", as if this somehow elevates them to the status of martyrs. A woman doesn't want a martyr."

Such "nice guys" would NEVER dream of "negging" a woman.

I like when a guy interacts with me in a back-and-forth, insulting-but-funny banter. It tells me that a) he has a sense of humor b) he's confident and not intimidated by me and c) he's interested-since he IS making the effort to engage me. The key is to use your tone, inflection, and body language to convey that you are being flirtatious, not mean spirited. I think this is why socially awkward guys may have trouble with "negging" -they get the delivery wrong and come off as rude or just awkward. Which is why spouting off rote pickup lines isn't going to be a good idea for everyone.

Women have endless magazines, talk shows and gossip circles to help each other to be "more attractive" and "snag" a man.

For what it's worth, most of those make me sick as well. I think it's because most of the advice on snagging a man is based upon the premise that a woman needs a man to be whole. I'd rather work on myself first and then see what kind of man I'm interested in (and what kind is interested in me). Amy's advice to women who want a boyfriend is to become someone that boyfriend would want. Not in a pretend-to-be-someone-you're-not kind of way, but more in a "become a whole person by yourself and then see what happens" kind of way.

Weighing in on the "negging" thing again, I have to say that there is a difference between teasing and saying something mildly insulting in order to put a woman off her game. I enjoy being teased in a light-hearted way. A man who can pull this off on a first meeting is a man worth looking twice at. But a back-handed compliment like the celebrity hairstyle thing in the example is just off-putting. Intent is the biggest part of this, I think. Good: a man who teases in order to seem flirtatious yet nebbishy. Bonus points for also coming across as slightly self-deprecating. Bad (and barf-making): a man who teases in order to make a woman want to work to get his approval.

I'm with you on the "nice guys", Neg Man. Nice guys are great, but "nice guys" make me ill. Again, it's all about intent. The "nice guys" are that way in order to get close to you without putting themselves in the position to be really intimate. That way they can avoid rejection. It's a coward's move.

> "Do I have your divided attention?"

Speaking of which... I didn't even git the title of this one. I thought it was "How To Offend A Woman In Bed". And I'm all like, why wait?

Anyway I agree with the idea that nice guys aren't really all that nice. In a truly loving, compassionate, sustainable society, school counselors would pull the nice boys out of class in 8th grade, beat the tar out of them, and tell them to stop being so precious about themselves and to actually go out and do something for someone.

Not really, but you see what i mean.

sweet dancing jehovah, people. "trick" women into sleeping with them? seriously?

i have been on the receiving end of the line & i am not actually "fooled" by it - if i want to f*ck a guy i have just met, it's because i find him attractive, not because of or in spite of the excuse he used to talk to me (which is what the idiotic lines are - in the olden days we called it an ice-breaker).

there is the end one-night stand i kinda wish would have gone on to something more, but really, do then men who have one-nighters truly believe we are pinning away the next morning, staring at the phone?

Snakeman writes... You're better off asking Derek Jeter.>>

Based on my own experience, you are mostly correct.

Neg, you are right on so many things I couldn't paste them all. I especially identified with the constant messages of "just be a nice guy". It took quite a bit of experience to unlearn "just be a nice guy". One big help was having a very close female friend who actually would banter the truth versus the "just be a nice guy - women don't fall for that other stuff". Many guys could benefit a lot from having that type of close female friend.

Kara, I agree. I don't see much difference. Ultimately the padded bra and using the wise guy lines are both techniques used to bring about similar results. And I don't see either as this awful act.

Like someone said, good-natured teasing is one thing, but pointing out a woman's big nose, to throw her off, just seems ridiculous. A woman that would be rendered so instantly insecure as to want to sleep with a guy who said that isn't the kind of woman you'd want, at least long-term. And she's probably slept with millions of guys if she's that needy, so it's not like you've really developed a great deal of prowess. You're just bottom-feeding.

I honestly can't remember my fiance's opening line, but I'm sure it wasn't a rehearsed line because he's not like that at all. We were introduced by friends, so it was probably, "Hi, nice to meet you."

He's never had trouble with women, but he also owns a business and stays in great shape. He is a nice guy too - always willing to help anybody out.

In fact, my friend told me that the first night, "He's the nicest guy in the world". That didn't put me off.

Women do want nice. We just don't want needy/groveling nice.

I think the point of the article is to get one-night-stands, not a girlfriend. If it were to get a girlfriend, the advice would be very different I think.

On calves, I have been complimented on them- I like it! I run 5 times week and play soccer, so they are well shaped if I do say so myself. It would never occur to me that a man didn't like anything else I have to offer just because he complimented my calves. Even if I am complimented on something I am insecure about (like my smile-crooked teeth), I take it as genuine and don't try to read an mal intent behind it.

Lovelysoul,

I think you said something very insightful:

“Basically, because of millions of years of evolution, women view their sexuality as a prize they own and men view it as a prize to take. When men take that prize through deception, it seems much worse. Like stealing.”

This right here is where the gut response from women and men come from on this issue. That being said, I believe the prize analogy is slightly off.

Instead I think it would be better to think about this in the context of supply and demand. Generally speaking, women are on the supply side of sex and men are on the demand side. As a result both sides make a concerted effort to work their end of the deal. Women are constantly on the lookout for ways of increasing the value of their supply, and men are constantly on the lookout for ways of negotiating a better deal from the supplier.

In this context, men who use effective pick up strategies are not “stealing” anything; they are instead using successful methods to negotiate for a better price from the supplier.

From an objective point of view, some women here are responding to this in much the same way that a car dealer might respond to someone who describes in detail how to get the best price for a new car. I really don’t think this can be equated with “stealing” or “trickery” or “deceit’, but I do understand why the car dealer would not be pleased about it.

Just as you describe that evolution has driven women to view their sexuality as a commodity that should be valued at a maximum. Evolution has also driven men to find the best and most effective negotiating strategies for getting access to sex at a minimum investment.

There is little objective validity to demonizing improved negotiating methods for men that drive down the price for sex while supporting the methods women use to drive the price up. The market is a competitive place and we should fully expect everyone to do what they can to get the best deal they are able to achieve.

The only way it can be asserted that the strategies used by women are good and that the strategies used by men are bad is if we look at this situation subjectively from the supply side. This is of course what we are seeing here and is a great example of the supply side trying their best to describe the demand side methods as dishonorable so as to discourage their use. This is in and of itself also a strategy for driving the price up by attempting to eliminate certain negotiating tactics.

In the final analysis there is not really anything wrong with any of this, if a guy gets a raw deal by thinking the woman he was interested in was hotter or younger than she really is we should have no more or less sympathy for him than for a woman who gets a raw deal by thinking the guy she was interested in was higher status than he really was. Ultimately, if there is really nothing there to build a relationship on, then no relationship will materialize. Most of these strategies are meant simply to get ones foot in the door.

Interesting analysis, Kara.

There's nothing wrong with a car salesman (supply side) doing everything to make the car attractive - buffing, polishing, repainting, making it smell great inside (ie: push-up bra, makeup, hair dye, and perfume)

But changing the odometer to reflect lower miles in order to make the sale is blatantly deceptive and wrong.

Likewise, the buyer can do everything to appear attractive to the seller - dress nicely, fill out the paperwork, show good credit, etc.

But if he uses a fake ID or a bounced check and drives off with the car with no intention of actually paying that is stealing.

I have no problem with guys learning techniques that help them open conversations with women. In fact, I encourage it. Even "negging", which I find stupid, is allowable if it works. Not really any worse than offering excessive flattery to get in the door.

But if he says he's a doctor when he really works at Walmart, that is blatantly deceptive and wrong.

I agree with some of the 12 rules, "Always be mentally ready to pick up"; "Don't lie"; and "Don't fear rejection". It seems like this particular guy and the audience for the tips he's giving are meant for those who are out for sex and not much else. Many women will deliberately avoid such people; they might think he's cheating on his wife/GF, is just out for a conquest, or wanting someone new for a harem. But the guy who's out for women who are easily seduced might end up with a woman who's a psycho or (much more likely), somewhere between mildly and very flaky.

Being middle-aged, I'm sure that much of what rubbed off on me from my feminist sister and a lot of women's lib talk from years back was dead wrong. Some things that stand out: most women really are attracted to men who are bold and confident; and, contrary to a lot of past feminist talk, many and/or most women are very much like doing what it takes to look appealing to men. Attractiveness to men and equality with men are not incompatible.

For guys, I can think of two things to boost your chances among women: first, stay in good shape. Second, be an authentic person. Years back, the greatest compliment I ever received was given to me by a woman I had a short relationship with when she made it very plain that she respected, if not loved me, for the person she knew I was, as revealed from actions, not talk.

As far as women being attracted to aggressive men, I am not sure how true this is but there are a few incidents in my own life that illustrate the point.

Some years ago I was working in a supermarket, and there was a guy who was a supervisor who was often quite foul-tempered and nasty. He eventually had a falling-out with the store manager, and got demoted, while another more mild-mannered man was brought in to replace him. Shortly after he was replaced, I was astonished by the number of female co-workers who were disappointed at him going. At least three women who I was friends with expressed their disappointment to me personally. Seriously, some of them would look at me with a sad pouty expression and whine "I want Dave back!". I had to bite my tongue and not blurt out 'Sheesh. If I hear another woman whine about how they want Dave back I am going to fucking scream!'.

And the thing is, this guy was not even the least bit charismatic. He was short, with a fairly ugly bulldog face, not that smart, and at best had a simple sense-of-humor. But heck, that was enough for the women there to go weak at the knees!

I am never surprised at what poor taste women seem to have in men.

NickS, the guy was probably a very take charge personality - right or wrong, he'd make a decision - which meant the women were less responsible for the outcome. If he made a mistake, they could bitch, and if he did something right...they could still bitch. lol

I don't think women necessarily "like" aggessive men, but in a social sitication, they are the ones bold enough to talk with us.

Many times, I've been out at a bar, and the aggressive guys will entertain me - buy me drinks and talk to me, which is better than sitting there alone.

But don't be fooled when you see a woman laughing at their jokes and so forth because she's probably watching the quiet guy in the corner and wishing he'd approach her.

However, he won't because a) he's shy, and b) the aggressive guys got there first, which is even more intimidating than approaching her alone.

Four Things That Make a Woman Unapproachable

http://lifestyle.msn.com/relationships/article.aspx?cp-documentid=22024566>1=32023

I've been guilty of a few of these. Traveling in packs and, for years, I adopted this pouty model expression until I realized that only models can get away with looking that miserable.

Lovelysoul, you are starting to grow on me. I read your first paragraph, thinking 'hmmm, who can this be? Such candour, humor and good sense.' Then I scroll down to the tag at the bottom of the post, and think 'oh. Well. What a pleasant surprise!'.

I agree that it is not necessarily that women like aggressive men, although a substantial proportion do. But I think the reality is slightly more complicated than that.

For one, women tend to be more submissive and risk-averse than men. When confronted with an opposing force or threat, women are more likely to acquiesce. Whereas men are more likely to weigh up the risks and benefits, and consider taking out the opposing force. So even if women don't always like aggressive males, they are more likely to learn to get along with them. In the case I mentioned, most of the women didn't like this guy at first. But by the end of his time there, they had grown to like him.

Historically, whenever a tribe was conquered by another tribe, the men would usually be killed and the women absorbed into the invading tribe. That is why men tend to have a stronger negative reaction towards aggressive males, while women are more likely to acquiesce to them. In terms of evolution and natural selection, male survival depends on such instincts, while women were able to survive if they learned to get along with the most dominant and aggressive males.

Also, men tend to be somewhat hierarchical. An aggressive male is usually seen as someone who is rising above their merit in the male dominance hierarchy. That is why in the case I mentioned it was another man (the store manager) who took him down. Whereas women, who don't understand the workings of the male hierarchy so much, tend to simply assume the most aggressive male is a dominant alpha and therefore the best bet. And because women are more vulnerable and in need of protection in the state-of-nature, they have more of an instinct to attach themselves to aggressive males.

So although women don't necessarily like aggressive males, they probably believe on some level that it is in their interests to get along with aggressive males. And once a woman has, in a sense, been 'captured' by an aggressive male she learns to like him. It is kind of a Stockholm syndrome effect.

"Stockholm syndrom effect" lol

I totally agree with your analysis, Nick. It's not that we "like" them, but we instinctively respond to the dominance and sense of protection.

If a man doesn't give off cues that he is strong and capable enough to protect us, we aren't as interested.

I've had guys using the negging strategy on me, and what I would do is neg back, which is to say, give a thinly veiled insult back at the same level as was given to me. This would either confuse the guy, or he would get angry and defensive. Since I didn't get defensive by being negged, the strategy didn't work. But as others have already mentioned, for players it's a numbers game and they just move on to the next woman, ad nauseum, and get the revolving door going in their beds.

I also liked the supply and demand analogy, that's the way I look at sex too. Women also have sex drives that need to be taken care of, so they can test drive all the men that are interested in them and then keep the one who will take care of their needs. Since most guys are only interested in one night stands, the woman has to be a very good judge of sexual prowess prior to letting the guy into her bed. Good interview skills are paramount! In order to increase her value in the supply/demand paradigm, she must stay fit and attractive, thus increasing the demand for her.