I wasn't expected to have to whip out the gay card again so soon, but I have a couple of problems with this.

1) You cannot promise anyone "it gets better." And Dan Savage needs to stop pretending he can. You cannot guarantee that for anyone. High school, since I attended a boarding school, wasn't nearly as bad as college, so the message that this program conveys, that "it gets better" (most of them literally promising this the very day of graduation from high school) certainly did not hold true for me. I was closest to suicide when I was in college, and it didn't end upon graduation either.

2)"...and what you think is fun and games." Trust me, homophobes don't see this as "fun and games." I've seen more pure hatred than I thought junior high school students could or should be capable of. Some actually view the assaults -- both verbal and physical -- as a right and even a duty granted them by their religion.

No, this isn't merely teasing the geeky kid for their own amusement. This is done out of pure, murderous (not an exaggeration) hatred. To suggest otherwise would be to deny my own experience. Not when I was getting pummeled in gym class until my ears were ringing while the gym teacher literally looked the other way. No one was giggling out of sadistic pleasure. No, I was faced with expressions that made it all to clear that the only thing protecting me from something worse was the awareness among my fellow students that murder is a serious business with serious consequences.

(Some of you might be reading this and thinking, "Oh, they wouldn't have really killed you." Oh, yes, they would have, if they thought they could have done it in such a way as they could have gotten away with it, without too much planning.)

Sorry to whip out the gay card again. I was hoping to let it alone for a few months at least. But it's obviously an issue I can and should address. Dan Savage's campaign, while well-meaning, is misguided and dangerously so. And the Rodemeyers, despite their terrible loss, are understating the motivations. There is no doubt in my mind that among those who drove this kid to suicide are some who experiencing no remorse whatsoever. In fact, I'm certain some are actually gratified, but might be astute enough to put on the face of penitence for the benefit of those who condemn them.

Part of why bullies get away with being bullies is because the school system so often looks away until a kid fights back.

Then they want to step in and punish both kids.

Its fucking retarded. Remember that video of the fat kid that was being picked on by the smaller boy. He did every thing he could to avoid a fight until he was pushed beyond his limits, then he picked the kid up, slammed him to the ground, and walked away.

The school suspended him, not the little punk bitch that thought it would be fun to pick on him.

I have no faith in school officials, they're about covering their asses, not educating or watching out for our kids.

My son is learning to fight, and to stand up for himself, and he knows if he does get provoked, I won't punish him for defending himself.

Robert: "The school suspended him, not the little punk bitch that thought it would be fun to pick on him."

You've probably heard different things, but according to this link, they were both suspended.

I'm reminded of a funny advertisement that I found at a church bulletin board at a gay Catholic church. The announcement is directed toward students who are the victims of bullying due to sexual orientation, offering emotional counseling. The bullying victims are not the ones with the problem; they aren't the ones that need therapy. And they don't need to discuss this with anyone. They need practical intervention to protect them.

My boy is nine, and has been in martial arts for three years. My daughter is six and just started. Of course, there is no guarantee that being able to throw someone into an armbar will prevent them from being bullied, but it is an insurance policy.

The real burden here is premature pressure to identify as gay - for purely political purposes.

Longitudinal studies show that 1/4 to 1/3 of teens experience same-sex "crushes" as a natural part of growing up. Most of these kids go on to integrate a normal, healthy hetero identity IF THEY ARE JUST LEFT ALONE - which is why only 2 percent of the adult population is gay...

Instead progressives have made the most vulnerable kids pawns in their culture war - pressing them to label themselves gay, and shackling them with the depressing lie that they are "born that way" and can never change.

So the bullies are then blameless, because we can somehow blame (gay) 'progressives' for this mess.
I don't know about "born that way" being right or wrong, but calling it a 'shackling, depressing lie' and implying it's a reason is wrong and hurtful, and borders on bigoted.
Being brought up to believe that some invisible man in the sky thinks being gay is wrong is a lot bigger lie.
But whatever lets you sleep at night, right?
Obligatory snarky comment: Mean people suck.

Ben David, I'm not sure what your point has to do with bullying. I don't imagine bullies really care whether their victim has "outed" him- or herself or not. It's enough just to be different, to look or sound like you're somebody they can pick on. Pressure to self-identify has nothing to do with that, and regardless of what you believe about homosexuality, there's no justification, none, for someone being bullied about it.

Face it, kids can be shockingly cruel, even ones whose parents brought them up not to be. And their victims don't have to be gay either. When I was a young teenager, another boy from my town went missing. He was regarded as a genius, and went off to Michigan State when he was only 16. A lot of people from my town disliked him, thought he was a nerdy twerp. Not long after he was found, he killed himself. I'll never forget overhearing some other kids cheering about it.

Ben-David, you've said some stupid, ignorant things before -- in fact, you've never said anything else -- but that last statement outdoes it all. Gay kids are anything BUT pressured into identifying themselves as gay. In fact, they do everything in the world to hide it and try to change it.

DrCos, perhaps you're new here, but there is nothing "borderline" about Ben-David's bigotry. He's full-blown, well past the edge and completely immersed, and very happy to be so.

And the actual statistic is 5%, Ben-David, so stop lying.

Old RPM, "shockingly cruel," based on what you describe, seems to be an understatement. I would call that "sick, sadistic and probably psychopathic."

Bullying of any kiind for any reason should never be tolerated. The 3 schools my kids have atetnded have all been very good about that, but preK's and elementaries should be. Now we are in a charter school where any bully will be immediately kicked out. It goes through graduation, so hopefully we can avoid the worst of it. And heaven help my kids if they ever bully.

Gay people don't have a lock on being bullied. I got it MERCILESSLY in high school. It was the sneakier kind-rumors of being a hooker, in porn, etc etc.

The bullies picked on this kid because he was gay. If he wasn't available they would (and probably did) pick on someone who was poor, or black, or Jewish, or fat, or pick any attribute.

I bet that if you go into the high schools in Israel, you could find the lone Christian kid gets picked on.

Bullying is about power and lack of empathy. A lot of the attitude comes from the parents and the local culture and society. These groups and activities are not deemed not to be the norm and bullies pick up on this.

I don't know what the answer is -- but don't blame the victim -- place the blame fully on the bully or bullies.

Jim P., I won't say, contrary to what some people seem to think I'm saying, that gay people have the lock on being bullied.

But there's bullying and then there's bullying.

Yes, taunting the fat kid is cruel, or playing pranks on the class nerd.

But pummeling someone senseless in gym class while the teacher looks the other way, or throwing chairs at someone, as Amy has experienced...it takes bullying to the next level. It's not just taunting someone to get a rise out of them, or to feel good about yourself...it's an effort to remove someone out of your experience, restrained only by the fact that murder is illegal.

The kids in my junior high might tease the fat kid...but remove him from the face of the earth? No, perish the thought. They'd have to find someone else to abuse. I wasn't fun to keep around to get anyone's sadistic jollies off. And I suspect Amy was regarded the same way. We were wanted GONE! Not just gone but permanently and irretrievably removed from their experience.

I saw a program-in a waiting room, so I was half-watching-that is run by a a jiu jitsu master (whatever they are called). It was a 2 week sleepaway camp, that "bully-proofs" susceptible kids. They teach them the mental and physical replies. The physical replies are all grappling holds that allow the victim to immobilize the attacker until the attacker agrees to leave them alone. It seemed pretty effective.

The ONLY response to a bully is swift retribution.

Had I learned that when I was 12, my life would have been significantly better in high school.

And how is someone struggling with his sexual identity at 14? Have most kids already gone through puberty by then?

I was bullied once or twice as a child, when I switched schools. My response (it was a boy) was a swift kick to the balls and slamming his head into a nearby desk. A letter went home to my parents, there was no punishment for me. And it was the last time it ever happened.

Isn't "struggling with his sexual identity" the PC way to say he had what might stereotypically be considered "gay mannerisms"? I can't watch the video at work, so maybe he is actually questioning this, but if he is it could be because people keep calling him a fag!

And how is someone struggling with his sexual identity at 14? Have most kids already gone through puberty by then?

About a third or so of my friends had had sex by then. I was 13 when a boy (also in 8th grade) confided in me that he "liked boys" and was afraid to tell anyone. So, by age 14 (8th grade/9th grade), I think it's fair to say that many kids are well into puberty biologically -- and they're constantly thinking about sex and who they'd like to have it with.

And heaven help my kids if they ever bully.

I've often asked myself what would be worse if I had kids: having my kid get bullied or having my kid BE the bully. I'd like to think the latter isn't possible -- my friends who are teachers assure me that bullies usually come from bully parents. But some bullies are so devious, I'm sure they can dupe their perfectly nice parents. All I can say is that, if my kid bullied another, I would be humiliated.

You cannot promise anyone "it gets better." And Dan Savage needs to stop pretending he can.

I think this is being a bit harsh. I think that the experience of most gay teens is that it does get better. When you're young, it's really difficult to see past whatever present difficulty you're facing. I think there's some merit in sending the message to teens that if they get through current difficult circumstances, their lives are likely to get better.

The real burden here is premature pressure to identify as gay - for purely political purposes.

Yes, it's political pressure from leftists that leads to teens identifying as gay and then being bullied and killing themselves. Your thinking on any issue related to homosexuality is deeply twisted and blinkered. The pressure in the world is enormous, but it's not to be gay, it's to be heterosexual. What world do you live in?

Have you ever actually met an admitted homosexual? Do you live in such a cloistered group of religious fundamentalists that everyone gay is either closeted or has left?

Gay people don't have a lock on being bullied. I got it MERCILESSLY in high school. It was the sneakier kind-rumors of being a hooker, in porn, etc etc.

The kind of bullying girls tend to do is sneaky but just as destructive as outright threats. Being taunted and ridiculed and lied about constantly is extremely destructive, but it's not something schools are likely to take too seriously.

What gets me is when adults raise the cry of, "They're just children!" and treat this bullshit like some kind of rite of passage. No adult would stand for this behavior. In fact, we would have people arrested for behaving like this if we got this treatment at work. Kids can't choose to go to another school, and the people who are supposed to be protecting them are punishing everyone equally, like the kids getting stomped on are the problem.

Being bullied as a child is far worse than being bullied as an adult. Kids are trapped in cages, and trapped during a time when their sense of self and identity is still partly unformed. They don't have the resources I would expect from an adult.

What a horrible loss. I can't imagine how his parents must be.

So here is what I don't get. If this kid had been making these videos for a while now, and adults have been following them. Why didn't anyone contact him or try to assist?

I can already see that the usual suspects are lining up to chastise all of us for murdering this boy by our heartless indifference. The same tedious ritual has begun that always does when something tragic like this occurs to someone of a protected minority. But if none of the supposedly enlightened and compassionate folks are going to take the initiative to do anything on their own, how do they propose that this issue should be addressed? Frankly their behavior seems cynical and opportunistic.

What I'm hearing now, on CNN and such, is that we should basically institute a comprehensive therapeutic police state in schools and turn over the entire curriculum to sensitivity training. It's the same overblown impractical crap that you always hear when something like this occurs. Then the issue will fade away, like it always does, until some new tragedy occurs and then the same cycle will start again.

It was my experience as a kid and my experience as a parent that the worse bullies are teachers and school administrators (and cops). The ones that aren't out-and-out antagonistic, passively support the bullying.

As an adult, I've not only been bullied by bosses, but was emotionally abused by my ex-wife. However, I didn't see it that way until recently and for a long time was too embarrassed to speak up.

Now, we have the TSA, police forces and federal agencies bullying people under the auspices of official authority, as though that makes it okay. Add to that the feminist movement which made bullying males not only permissible, but expected. Yet, as Amy discovered, if you stand up for your rights, you are slapped down and "progressives", the very people who claim to care for you as an individual, defend the system.

There's some kind of anti-bullying campaign going on right now... I don't know if it's an Austin thing or if it's one of those "National Awareness Weeks." I know that, locally, the athletic director of one of the large high schools and the police chief are involved. It was mentioned that TX recently change a law that originally allowed only the bullied chiled to be moved withing the school/district. I think that's one step in the right direction, but it only helps if there are only one or two individuals targeting a kid.

I do agree that one of the only ways to insure that your kid won't be bullied is to make sure they can defend themselves. My husband was bullied pretty mercilessly as a young teenager. There was an incident in which some older kid was pummeling him- had him on the ground, straddling him, teeing off on his face- and Husband managed to reach around and shove a couple fingers into the dude's rectum and ripped it.

So, yeah, the bullying stopped.

You cannot promise anyone "it gets better." And Dan Savage needs to stop pretending he can. - Patrick

Kids are trapped in cages, and trapped during a time when their sense of self and identity is still partly unformed. They don't have the resources I would expect from an adult. - MonicaP

It may not "get better," but one does have more options as a legal adult than one has in one's teen years.

Teenagers are, as Monica pointed out, trapped in local schools and limited social circles, have very little autonomy being subject to the authority of almost every adult in their world, and are stuck in a psychological cage of their own making (not yet able to envision life beyond a limited horizon).

In that sense, it does "get better" when one moves beyond middle and high school and has the freedom to try new approaches and expand one's horizon.

There are degrees of bullying. This isn't merely about teasing someone about their taste in clothes until they learn to dress better; or giving someone a hard time for not putting away childish ways and growing up; or teasing the socialy awkward into adjusting their behavior; or belittling the different kid to mask one's own insecurities.

Those forms of harassment are all part of growing up.

We're talking about something that can escalate to real bodily harm; whether self-inflicted or imposed by an outsider.

==============================

The kids in my junior high might tease the fat kid...but remove him from the face of the earth? No, perish the thought. - Patrick

Having your own frame of reference, Patrick, I think you fail to appreciate the hostility with which some kids view the victims of their bullying, whatever inspired the bullying.

Bullies carry on until stopped. And they escalate until reined in.

An unchecked bully will remove the fat kid from the face of the earth ... and congratulate himself afterward for doing the world a favor.

Granted, he won't be able to cloak his actions in the religious fervor of fighting "sin" that picking on the gay kid might provide, but he'll find just as self-righteous a justification for his actions as the holiest of bullying rollers.

And you're dismissing the effect the teasing has on the fat kid. You may think it's just teasing and that whatever you're going through is much worse, but his world is restricted by his perspective. He doesn't see you getting beaten up in gym class and think to himself, "Thank God I only have to deal with swirlies, public humiliation, and relatively mild violence. I'll be fine."

==============================

The bullying victims are not the ones ... that need therapy. - Patrick

They might be.

Bullying can have an adverse effect on the self-esteem of the bullied. Therapy can help them see beyond that.

The damage to their self-esteem from being bullied can destroy their confidence, affect their ability to form relationships, and constrain their career and social horizons.

Being bullied can be a bit like PTSD, a little time-bomb in the psyche.

But you're right about the bullies needing therapy. When one's self-esteem is so low that one can only boost it by violently diminishing another, one has issues.

Self-esteem talk is a waste of time.

A few people have talked about this already, but a lot of people get bullied. I sincerely, sincerely believe that the popular fascination with this has nothing to do with genuine compassion for gays. If it did, it would flow in proportional –often larger– torrents for all the other people who get bullied: Dim bulbs, the extremely short, different colors, and all the rest. There are a lot of "little knives" in a lot of little kids. Sometimes straights kill themselves, too.

This is all about sanctimony, and insisting that other people do the head-tilt/pouty-lips thing... Getting in there and really cranking the machinery inside other people's skulls: Bullies need therapy! It should be compulsory!

Fuck that. Very pleased that so many commenters have moved this to the general topic of bullying, which speaks much more clearly of virtue... And humility.

Another point, these stupid "anti-bullying" laws won't do anything to actually prevent, stop, or change bullying. If adults really wanted to, they would handle it in the schools and in their homes. I was targeted (even chased down by people in their car, more than once) and finally attacked during my senior year - in the fully-crowded hallway of my high school in between classes when ALL of the teachers were in their rooms. My entire class circled around the fight and started chanting horrible things. None of these teachers peeked their heads out to stop it or help. Then we both got suspended, me for kicking the girl in defense.

Anyhow I'm saying that someone could have stopped it or stepped in to help at any time, and no one did. I think the best thing you can do is try to teach your kids to be as emotionally healthy as possible and teach them to defend and protect themselves and others. You can't count on school administrators, teachers, or other "adults" for anything. All of this rallying and law-passing is so ridiculous. It's nice to have it addressed in a public forum but still the problem remains that shitty people are going to raise other shitty people, and adults will continue to turn the other cheek. It isn't going to change because some stupid law gets passed. Oh I'm so eloquent today huh?

> If adults really wanted to, they would handle
> it in the schools and in their homes.

Yes.

Ben David - is that you David ben-Ariel?

I was bullied mercilessly; to the point of attempted suicide. I tried to kill myself in 7th grade.
I was a super easy target because 1) I was always the new kid (Dad was in the Army) 2) I didn't fight back 3) I didn't have a support system because dad was abusing me at home as well.
I came home one day covered in blood from being jumped. This was the third time that year that I'd come home that way. The reaction I got was, well, less than supportive. Dad got mad that I lost another fight. Mom just ignored it. I tried to swallow all the prescription pills in the house that night. I ended up just vomiting them up. I got in trouble for that mess too. I started taking martial arts that same year (at my fathers initial insistance because "he refused to have WEAK children") and discovered that I was actually really good at it. I learned quickly and got my belts in less time than most students my age. Marital Arts class was the only place I felt safe so I spent every moment there I could. And then I discovered that I had talent for performing and started singing. So I spent all my time training and singing. My confidence started to increase and the bullying while still occuring, wasn't as frequent (although I attribute that to my just not being as available anymore).
One day, before summer, one of my biggest bullies, a much older boy, started in on me at the playground across the street. I tried to walk away from him but couldn't because he kept blocking my path. The other neighborhood kids were gathering around as usual. For the first time ever I actually said "STOP." That pissed him off even more (I assume because I had never fought back before and my protesting made it less fun). He grabbed me by my hair and rammed my head into the swingset pole. I honestly don't remember much after that expect that by the end, I was sweating, my shirt was torn, and he was on the ground crying with blood dripping from his nose (turns out I broke it). I also remember seeing him on the ground and then kicking him hard in the gut and jumping on top of him and pummeling him while he was down. It took two adults to get me off of him. (yeah, NOW they want to get involved!) I guess I unleashed all my rage onto him right then and there. In retrospect, that's not my proudest moment; I stooped to his level.
However, after that summer, no one picked on me anymore. It wasn't long after that my dad was stationed (ARMY) to antoher base and we were moving again, where I once again became the new girl and had to defend myself until I was older and started to become "hot".

I filled out and lost weight and boys wanted to date me. I was so jaded by then though that even though I wasn't getting bullied anymore, I had incredibly low self esteem. Couple that with my feelings about my dads previous abuse and you've got a recipe for disaterous relationships. (It did however make me a better actress.) Theatre and martial arts are what kept me going. It took me until my mid 20's to be healthy enough mentally to be able to handle a decent relationship.

So I can empathize. However, I don't think "legislation" is the answer. The answer is parents and schools actually get more involved instead of chalking it up to "kids will be kids". Put the onus back on the ADULTS to actually do something about it.

Put the onus back on the ADULTS to actually do something about it.

One of the biggest problems we have in this country (probably the biggest) is that we have too many grown up who aren't adults.

@Sabrina that is unbelievable! It seems to often be the case that adults don't get involved until the victim lashes out at the tormentor. It's always made me so angry how bullies can inflict their torture for months and the adults do nothing -- but, then, when the victim finally strikes back, they step in.

My boyfriend took up martial arts as a result of bullying, too! He was always short (didn't hit his growth spurt til high school) and was the only person of his race at his school. He got into martial arts when he was 13 and continued all through high school. He said knowing that he could kill most of his classmates if he wanted to was a huge confidence boost -- and he thinks that his increased confidence deterred the bullies more than anything.

>> Self-esteem talk is a waste of time.

Exactly. If the parents can afford a computer (or that big TV in the background) they can surely afford martial arts class.

One thing my Dad told me as a kid: "You always have the right to defend yourself." (These days I would add, "even if the school doesn't think so.")

Sabrina - I like your story. It's a good reminder to parents that they have an obligation to expose their children to social groups outside school.

What also helps is community. When I was a kid, the nerds tended to stick together and do things that interested them. It's harder to corner someone when he's in a group, and the sense of isolation isn't so oppressive when someone has friends who are experiencing the same thing.

Let the tap-dancing begin!

Ben-David, for the uninitiated, is an Orthodox Jew

Translation:
1)I can't address the substance of Ben-David's post, so I'll just move on to character assasination - on a thread about bullying!

2)But it's OK to bully "Orthodox Jews" because they have horns are on the Politically Correct B-list - so you actually get cool points for dissing them!

Further Goddess "wisdom":

The disgusting thinking here is that gayness is a problem, and shameful

Well it seems that's how this boy thought about the prospect of living that life...

And all the real scientific evidence we have indicates that gays are NOT "born that way" - and that most kids like this will outgrow their same-sex crushes.

So why was he pressed to label himself?
By who?
For what purpose?

He was lied to by gay-rights activists, for their own political ends.

And now he's died - of shame.

Ben-David, you have a number of thinking errors in your posts. Warped is what it's called. I'll gladly pinpoint them a little bit later, but quickly: he wasn't struggling because of some imaginary push to label himself, he WAS GAY; he wasn't feeling pressured to out himself, he was targeted for BEING GAY. That is that. He wasn't being allowed to live as a free person without the threat of violence. He didn't kill himself because he liked boys or struggled with telling someone, he killed himself because of the threat to his very existence. You are basically saying he should have kept it to himself, and that's wrong. How can you not see that, sir?

Ben David, you're an idiot. You think this poor child killed himself because the "prospect of living that life" (as a gay person) was too shameful? So, if he was never bullied for being gay, he would have killed himself anyway because he was ashamed? Is that really what you're saying? I know it's hard, but try to be smarter. He killed himself because he was bullied, which is the bigger topic here, but of course you've AGAIN jumped on the gay-bash opportunity.

Also, why would Amy condone making fun of you for being a Jew when that is what she was tormented for as a child? She let newcomers know you were an Orthodox Jew, and that's considered character assassination? Weird.

Anyway, the thing I really wanted to comment on was a follow up to momof4's post about the jiu jitsu story she mentioned. I saw an article on it a while back and thought it was really cool that the Gracie Acadamy existed and has already helped out a kid who was bullied: http://www.mmamania.com/2011/8/26/2386855/gracie-jiu-jitsu-helps-12-year-old-bullying-victim-fight-back-at

Also, being physically capable and having the capacity for violence needn't be feared, as it's intensely natural. It does however need to be used wisely. Get strong, kids.

Patrick,

The 5% you quoted is what stat? Ben Davids' regarding bisexual experimentation or homosexual orientation? I ask because only if you add bisexual with GLT do you get near 5%. Current stats are that bisexuals represent less than 2% as do homosexuals (GL).

But what difference does it make? If GL were only 0.5% not one should be treated like that boy was...if only for common decency (offered as a segue).

Ben-David,
the boy killed himself because other kids relentlessly made his life a living hell. In your philosophy, shouldn't they have treated him with decency and let G*d sort it out?

Ariel, that's what my psych instructor told our class. Actually, she said between 5-10%. (I place it on the low end; I never could believe one in ten people are supposed to be gay.) Understandably, this number is hard to pin down. You have the issue of people being open and honest about it...always a problem. And you also have to realize that sexuality, although expressed in absolutes, is not absolute. Most people fall somewhere in between homosexuality and heterosexuality. I would have to say, I'm an extreme case. I have never in my life looked at a woman and felt anything even remotely resembling sexual attraction. But I'm the exception, not the rule.

Conan, the point I was making about the ads is that there's an absurdity in offering counseling for someone who routinely beaten by his classmates and is afraid to walk home from school. "Are you being pummeled in gym class till your ears ring while your worthless gym instructor looks the other way and just need someone to talk to?"

Well, someone who has that happen to him needs more practical intervention.

"And all the real scientific evidence we have indicates that gays are NOT "born that way" "

Hey Ben-David, remember me? Each time you have pointed out that
homosexual men have the highest STD rate out of any group I have
countered that with the fact that lesbians have the lowest
STD rate out of any group (including heterosexuals).
Yet each time I have asked you to disprove this scientific
fact you seem to disappear. You dont seem to respond. Please
respond this time. Oh please please.

"And all the real scientific evidence we have indicates that gays are NOT "born that way"..."

Once again: Wrong.

For everyone: look up the term, "androgen insensitivity". Prepare to see things you don't want to, and which are NSFW, even as they are the Web pages of such institutions as Johns Hopkins.

Now, that's "real". I don't know what definition Ben David might be using. People in the USA are born with different physical degrees of gender. You, yourself are built in complex ways. You don't have the same fingerprints, retinal patterns or even basic bodily dimensions of anybody else. Yet Ben David insists we are binary. Only two ways can you be made.

Wow. That's not even wrong, it's so far off.

You don't have to look for a "gay gene", having made that search. Instead, you might ask yourself this question:

"When I point at an American citizen, just what about them lets me strip them of their rights?"

Answer that one for me, Ben David. Show me how someone like yourself should be stripped of their rights for living with another person you don't approve of.

Name the penalties, the punishments, the jail time you'd impose on, say, Lance Bass for having a boyfriend. How much better it would be for all of us to put Elton John in prison rather than let him spread joy to a billion people with his music!

This objection to gays is about power, not liberty. Look at the governments around the world who execute people for being gay and ask yourself, "Who thinks it's a good idea to do that?"

They are people, not things, from whom we may expect the full range of joy and despair, talent and incompetence, and you're not going to be infected with Teh Gay. You should probably notice that.

So then I read some more of the comments....

BD is indisputably burdened with extra energy about teh gay. Nonetheless, some of you are too enthusiastic to dismiss his points without thoughtful comment.

I've talked to some teenagers from liberal households. They've learned the importance of slam-dunking matters of sexual preference from their parents; nothing is more important to them than presenting an aura of sexual sophistication... An aura, ironically, which is impenetrable.

"Nonetheless, some of you are too enthusiastic to dismiss his points without thoughtful comment."

I've tried discussing Ben-David's points with thoughtful comment Crid. But when I explain to him that gay men are promiscuous because they are men and not because they are gay he seems to disappear. The reason gay men are so impulsive in sexual desires is because they are men. Heterosexual men, given the some opportunity with straight women would take it in a heartbeat. But women dont intend to ever give them such an advantage. As I've stated multiple times on this blog, lesbians have the lowest STD rate of any group. So promiscuity is not a "gay" thing but a "male" thing and Ben-David disappears every single time I bring out this argument. Let's see if he addresses it this time.....

Patrick,

I understand now. Most of this comes from Kinsey's really bad study. It never made sense to me either that the ratio was 1/10, my gut was more 1/30 to 1/40. I've lived in San Francisco (I understand how women feel about whistles, I was considered cute then), lived with gays, attended wealthy gay parties in PV and Scottsdale, and had a gay best friend in the military. Yet, I never thought that the ratio was that high. I see it as agenda more than truth.

And you aren't "extreme" or even the exception for gays, no more than a hetero who would be sickened by homosexual sex (a phrase I've paraphrased from a lesbian I know). So really, don't in anyway doubt yourself, if that's what you're doing.

I agree that the number is hard to pin down, but gays are much more open now than ever before (hetero leaning bisexuals less so which is why I doubt the number), because society is less antagonistic, so I think the percentage of GL is approaching the actual limit.

I have problems with the political agenda of gay rights group, but I consider that fair ground. I wish you well and a happy life.

Ppen,

Your argument is one that really pisses me off. Not because your wrong, but because it is so often denied, or excused with some lame "but straight men...". Gay men have a higher opportunity, at a lower cost (neglecting STDs), than straight men. It's a no brainer and has only to do with male libido. If only women had the same libido, I would have racked up...

I'm amazed that studies have to be done on this, other than to pin down rates. However, listening to an editor from the Echo dance around this until he had to admit it explains the cause.

> So promiscuity is not a "gay" thing but
> a "male" thing

All true, Purp. Gogogo.

Believe it or not, there was a time in my life when I was pretty badly bullied.

I was picked on constantly, and stupidly listened to my mother about not fighting. I tried to be nonviolent, and add to that I was, at least in the first year of high school, very small for my age, and the new kid, and it was a recipe for disaster.

But things gradually changed. My dad put me to work outdoors, chopping and hauling wood, I developed a near obsession with physical labor, and I got bigger and bigger, and I don't mean with fat.

Thing is, I didn't even realize it was happening. I just happened to notice that bullying dropped off by more than half in my Sophmore year, had nearly halted in my Junior year, and was nonexistent in my Senior year.

Between my size increases and my reputation for loving to hit hard when playing games of redneck basketball (same game, but a no blood no foul rule) I suppose I just no longer seemed like a good target.

I didn't realize how much I'd changed until one day I was in the bathroom, looked in the mirror, and barely recognized myself. I was so used to seeing the small fairly scrawny kid, and the change was so gradual, that I just didn't see who or what I'd become until I got there.

How tragic, may the Rodemeyers find peace and comfort.

Patrick,

I do want to semi-apologize to you. It really isn't an apology but more an explanation of my behavior.

My references to BOTU as a catamite are deserved. He refuses to acknowledge any other viewpoint other than his own. There is a refusal to grow and learn. Even when he responds, he refuses to acknowledge a valid point. He will continue to post the same diatribe.

I do not normally disparage individuals in person. I generally follow the same rules on the web. I am willing to pick apart their ideas, and have done so on many occasions.

When the same response is received regardless of the topic -- I relegate the individual to a discounted status. The total is about seven individuals so far, live and internet.

You actually sound like you consider ideas before you reframe them.

Semi-apology accepted, although I recall nothing you said that was even semi-offensive to my sensibilities. It was kind of you, nonetheless, to say that about me, and I thank you for it. I do try to consider new ideas. If I'm being close-minded, I would certainly trust several on this board to remind me.

Momof4: I saw a program-in a waiting room, so I was half-watching-that is run by a a jiu jitsu master (whatever they are called). It was a 2 week sleepaway camp, that "bully-proofs" susceptible kids. They teach them the mental and physical replies. The physical replies are all grappling holds that allow the victim to immobilize the attacker until the attacker agrees to leave them alone. It seemed pretty effective.

That sounds like a brilliant program, Momof4. I wish such a thing existed when I went to school.

Christopher: I think this is being a bit harsh. I think that the experience of most gay teens is that it does get better.

Christopher, the operative word in that sentence is "most." By qualifying it, it seems to me that you're conceding that you cannot promise anyone it gets better.

Amy writes: The disgusting thinking here is that gayness is a problem, and shameful, and it's Ben-David's type of thinking that contributes to cries of "faggot."

Just a thought here, Amy. But if his only rationale is that homosexuality violates God's law, then shouldn't His Orthodox Jewness be equally offended by the fact that most of us, including me, are Christian? Or that you're an atheist? So, why isn't he, if his only concern is the tender sensibilities of the deity, railing against our religions or lack thereof?

M4: I got it MERCILESSLY in high school. It was the sneakier kind-rumors of being a hooker, in porn, etc etc.

Oh, my God, M4! How could you? You shameless tramp!

The single best thing you can tell any kid in middle or high school is what I told my friend's kids:

Some people will tell you that these are the best years of your life. They are lying. High School is the worst time of just about everyone's life.

Life is infinitely better at 30 than it is at 15. Get through it as best you can, and then put it behind you.

(I never thought about suicide until some parent on some school trip tried to get me to go hang around with everyone else at some dance, and told me "You should be enjoying this, these are the best years of your life." The only thing I could think for months after that is "If this is as good as it gets, why bother." I'm glad that eventually I figured out she was just bitter that she hadn't made better choices.)

Some people will tell you that these are the best years of your life. They are lying.

Totally. Sometimes I think people who say this have blocked out their childhoods.

I haven't seen anything addressing this directly and I think it's the biggest part of the problem.

The problem is that we have schools like jails - specifically compulsory schools where the kids who don't like each other can't get away from each other. The result is the same interactions that you see in prisons (or Lord of the Flies). That's an inevitable and predictable result of human nature.

The reason Dan Savage says it gets better is because it usually does. Once out of school you can avoid the bigots and people who take pleasure in hurting you. Within school - where you can't leave the building and usually not even that specific class or gym room - leaving isn't an option. The victim is stuck. The victim knows it and the bully knows it.

What's needed is for children to be able to move from school to school. Or maybe even stay home and homeschool for a while. Having multiple schools in a district or other forms of choice is one way. It would also help greatly if the schools were allowed (encouraged would be better) to kick out discipline problems.

This king of bullying is much, much rarer outside of schools precisely because rarely elsewhere are people forced to such close (and unhappy quarters). If you don't like your job you can quit. If you spouse beats you, you get a divorce. If you don't like your classmates what can you do? Those who can hurt them manage. If you can't physically do that? You beg for help from the busy and indifferent wardens of your school. How could that not lead to bullying?

Robert said:
My dad put me to work outdoors, chopping and hauling wood, I developed a near obsession with physical labor, and I got bigger and bigger, and I don't mean with fat.

Thing is, I didn't even realize it was happening. I just happened to notice that bullying dropped off by more than half in my Sophmore year, had nearly halted in my Junior year, and was nonexistent in my Senior year.
_______________________

That's pretty much what happened with Teddy Roosevelt. (Except his dad could afford to give him a gymnasium. I first heard of his being bullied in "The 18th Emergency.")

I agree with Thom. I know my son is young and has yet to question his sexuality, but I would think that changing schools, homeschooling, etc would be important choice over sending my child to school when I know that the administration isn't doing anything.

I know it's a difficult choice, especially when finances are tight, but what's better, sacrificing for your child or not having a child to sacrifice for?

I was bullied all through school for being the fattest girl in class. Looking back in pictures, I wasn't really that fat compared to some kids today. But kids weren't that heavy in the 1960's. I found my escape and peace with my horses and one best girlfriend. There were times I wanted to end it all. I'm glad I didn't. My own 2 kids are beautiful and strong. They had it easier than I did.

> The problem is that we have schools like jails -
> specifically compulsory schools where the kids
> who don't like each other can't get away from
> each other.

Yes, education is compulsory. Sorry! Education is more important to your long-term future than a room full of socially warm-fuzzies every afternoon. Learning to get along with others is PART OF THE DEAL.

Listen, this shit gets SOOOOOOOO mawkish. Amy says "I'm not being that melodramatic", but that's exactly what these narratives are. (I've got stories too. Wanna hear 'em? No? Oh well.)

IT'S THESE THEATRICAL, FAUX-RETICENT RECOLLECTIONS OF DEEP PERSONAL HURT THAT MAKE ME DOUBT THAT THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH TEH GAY. I don't think you guys are as compassionate and outwardly-attentive as you're pretending to be... You're too eager to look inward. And backward. And get all weepy.

Many, many people grow up with zero awareness of their blind spots... They do not realize the offense they're giving to the rest of the community. And things that get called "bullying" are sometimes useful correctives. They can teach us to either see the world more clearly, or to behave as if we do... Which is good enough for most of the rest of society, which takes no interest in our intimate dramas.... And SHOULD take no interest.

So I disagree with Thom. These ventures are always going to be institutional, and they're always going to be confining. A lot of modern life is like that.

So where are the parents? Where are the teachers? Why have countless generations of administrators and seniors in children's lives let this happen?...

...Because they want it to. Either because they want to share some of the terror they felt in their own childhood –much as daughters of divorce are happy to teach their own kids to distrust men— or because they've been unable to present loving boundaries to their own children at home, and need some other force to constrain a rambunctious spirit, perhaps only as payback.

(Or of course, they want their kids to be part of the mob, instead of the victim, as in their own generation.)

No excuse for bullying kids for being gay... But to be especially precious about that particular context of bullying seems merely fashionable.

Actually Thom brings up a fantastic point.

That the schools are government institutions should be questioned. I know education is not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution. It may be in the various states' Constitutions.

What may be the best solution is quite simply end public education. Have nothing but private schools that are answerable to the parents. How many times have we heard fantastic stories about charter schools?

"Some people will tell you that these are the best years of your life. They are lying. High School is the worst time of just about everyone's life."

I'm wondering how you know this, because those years were OK-to-great for me.

Even as I agree with George Carlin - that kids are just like adults: a few winners, a whole lotta losers.

Christopher, the operative word in that sentence is "most." By qualifying it, it seems to me that you're conceding that you cannot promise anyone it gets better.

Yes, so what? Most, nearly all... You are right. None of these = every single person without exception. I'm still ok with telling gay teens or bummed out straight teens or anyone else that it gets better. I'm willing to be wrong at the margins. I've worked with kids a lot; despair strikes me as much worse than potentially false hope. But that's false for few; for the vast majority, things get better.

"Vast majority," huh? Got statistics for it, or just pull it out your ass?

I guess it's okay with you to promise people that it gets better...and for those "few" that it doesn't, "Oh, well, just go knock yourselves off."

Gee, I like your ethics. It's okay to promise everyone that it does get better, because you've convinced yourself, without a scrap of evidence, that for the "vast majority," it does get better.

Ariel, my psychology instructor's assertions do not come from Kinsey, who said 10%, not five to ten percent. She has acknowledged that Kinsey's studies were faulty due to the his sampling.

You cannot claim 5% is some kind of lie because of something Kinsey NEVER said.

Another note: those of you who still think that the ONLY thing that defines Tea Partiers is their desire for a balanced budget? Told you so.

Christopher, so it's okay to you to promise people that it does get better, because in your mind (and completely without any evidence whatsoever), it does for most people. Harruph! Harrumph! It's the "vast majority!" Of course, you don't know that at all, but that won't stop you from claiming it. And regarding this "tiny minority" (a logical inference from a "vast majority"), they can go off themselves, because they realize it will not get better, they were lied to; or worse, they internalize their failure to accomplish what you promised they should have accomplished and conclude there must be something wrong with them.

Christopher...go to hell. Go directly to hell. Do not pass "Go!" Do not collect two hundred dollars. Go to hell.

I think I'll stay right here, Patrick. I can't condone your thinking, which appears to be that if something isn't helpful to everyone, we should do nothing. That's an argument for hopelessness and inaction.

Gee, Patrick.

Just what motivation do you offer?

Because your approach seems to be that telling the kid to off himself now is the right thing to do.

If you tell everybody it gets better, then you'll be right most of the time, and you give hope. If you tell people, "No, it won't get better for some of you", then some people will self-select for the worst, and this encourages self-abuse and suicide, does it not?
If you tell everybody it doesn't get better, then it's easy to show that you're wrong in most cases. Who wants to do that?

Christopher, as opposed to your approach, which you seem to think is "doing something," you walk up to someone who's being bullied because of his sexual orientation, and you tell them, "It gets better."

Then you stride off into the sunset, vigorously patting yourself on the back, confident that you've "done something."

No, child, I'm not advocating "doing nothing." But I'm not going to fall back on the laughable, yet disgusting position that proffering an empty promise of "It gets better" is doing something.

How pompous and self-righteous can you get? "How DARE you suggest we do nothing! Why, you should be ashamed of yourself! We need to be going out and telling people whose day-to-day existence in school is a nightmare because they're being bullied and tell them that it gets better!"

Yesiree, Bob! That's real action for ya!

You know, I never really appreciated the old expression "full of hot air" until I read your post. You can smugly lecture me on how I'm doing nothing, while you dare to pretend that merely telling someone "it gets better," although you have no way of knowing it and have no authority for your "vast majority" statistic is
"doing something."

Do you have even the faintest concept of vast idiocy you're spewing?

Radwaste, again with the unsupported statistics? Where is this "most" coming from? And for that matter, how do you this vague and unnassured "better" will even arrive on time, if it arrives at all?

All you idiots want to do is walk up to a kid who's miserable with some promise that you have NO RIGHT to offer of how "better" it's going to be.

How much better? Misery can still be misery, even with slight improvement. Yes, let's fluff a pillow for someone in the end stages of terminal cancer. Hey, it's "better," isn't it?

....School bullying? You can get it for anything. I got bullied at school for my last name of all things.

Pose your argument carefully, Christopher... Patrick's forged his reasoning through long hours of study at the Federal Public Library!

> I got bullied at school for my last name

"Pen" is Swedish, right?

Bah, I'm about done here. I don't find your outrage very enlightening, Patrick. But I guess I got a little more gas left in the tank.

Christopher, as opposed to your approach, which you seem to think is "doing something," you walk up to someone who's being bullied because of his sexual orientation, and you tell them, "It gets better."

I think the campaign makes sense because it's mostly people who've been there and who are now doing better relating their experiences. It's not me, a straight dude, saying it.

You keep coming back to people lacking stats for how many people "it gets better" for. It gets better for pretty much everyone who makes even moderately intelligent choices for where he lives and with whom he associates. Adults aren't trapped in tiny jock-ruled fiefdoms; they're free to go where being gay is welcomed, and hang out with people who know who they are and enjoy their company. Survive high school, get the fuck out, and go where there are people like you = better.

> It gets better for pretty much everyone who
> makes even moderately intelligent choices for
> where he lives and with whom he associates.

Yeah. A lot of things that people are eager to remember as teenage knifepoint death threats were actually minor insults from people you wouldn't bother to smile for today anyway.

Christopher, visibility is not numbers. So, because five people say it gets better. You see a video with ten people for whom it gets better. You know what you can infer from that? That it got better for ten people. Actually, nine. Since the kid in this video was making these promises of "it gets better" and ended up shooting himself anyway.

So, of course, when these tiny tots endure four to six years of pure hell during these growing years, they're just magically going to be well-adjusted, stable, happy, confident high school graduates, able to make these intelligent choices you're so fond of. And of course, they'll all have fabulous well-paying jobs the nanosecond they graduate from high school, so they can leave immediately to their gated communities, away from all the commoners and riffraff that make their lives hell for those years.

And all because you walked up to them and clapped them on the shoulder and told them it gets better.

As for my doing nothing...sorry, but I believe in a more practical approach than giving people monumentally uncatchy slogans to cling to in their misery.

Bullies need to be treated for what they are: criminals. Bullies can go stand before a judge, who is going to make it clear that if he ends up before this judge for the third time, His Honor is going to present this thug with a few options involving life-fucking changes. Like say, maximum security schools, where the kids will be escorted from class to class in groups with a security guard. After school activities involve community service to pay for the upkeep of their schools.

They will still graduate on time, although the schools they went to might not look so good on college applications. This way, all students will be pursuing their education in venues that reflect the level of trust that they have earned.

You see, unlike you, I have this rather quaint idea that if I'm going to promise someone that "it gets better," I have the responsibility to do something to try and make it so. I know the idea is abhorrent to you, since your idea of doing something is letting a handful of successful gays tell people in their mire of misery that someday "it gets better."

Not the best idea in the world? Perhaps not. But at least I'm not passing the buck to makers of videos with their "be positive" message and a breathtaking lack of practical action.

By thunder, I've been sold on this "it gets better" approach. They should make one for rape victims, too.

"They" have.

@Sabrina: That was a unbelieveable story.

I could catalogue all the things that happened to me at high school, but it ended after a couple of incidents where I actually went to an adult, and the principals either got expelled or suspended. It frightened the living shit out of me because I feared retribution, but it yielded results.

The right thing to do is not sit there and do nothing - that is exactly what the bullies want you to do. You might not want to use your fists, but you use every resource you can to make sure this stuff stops.

If it means putting out countervideos telling the public that a bully is spreading gross lies and rumors out there, stealing your lunch money, hitting you for no good reason, and not a single soul - parent, teacher, administrator - is doing a thing about it, so be it. Sometimes it takes a a viral video or two to get the ball rolling; satisfaction and resolution might take awhile, but once it comes it feels wonderful.

People respect self-defense - bullies and the bullied alike. It doesn't have to be physical retribution a la Scut Farkus - but sometimes it's the only message a bully understands.

Then the "it gets better" doesn't sound like an attempt to sweep things under the rug; the person can say "It gets better because I had the guts to face that bully and defend myself."

> People respect self-defense - bullies and
> the bullied alike.

That's ducky, but when does appealing to a higher authority to settle a dispute constitute "self-defense"?

"Getting the ball rolling" is the antithesis of "defending [your]self".

We've covered this kind of thing in earlier timez.

Y'all keep watchin' this space, I'm petitioning Amy to restore a spamfiltered link (to her own blog!).

Pinker, who once was married to the mighty Etcoff:

In recent decades, the movement for children's rights has significantly reduced rates of spanking, bullying, paddling in schools, and physical and sexual abuse. And the campaign for gay rights has forced governments in the developed world to repeal laws criminalizing homosexuality and has had some success in reducing hate crimes against gay people.

"Radwaste, again with the unsupported statistics?"

What?

You started this. I'll quote you:
"1) You cannot promise anyone "it gets better." And Dan Savage needs to stop pretending he can. You cannot guarantee that for anyone."

Those are absolute statements. Valid ones are VERY rare. I guess you're using your own definition of "promise", here, as well as one for "anyone".

In the first case, an acquaintance or supportive professional, who cannot or does not intervene on a victim's behalf CAN do two things: 1) observe that the environment will change, for instance with the school year; 2) use the word "promise" as encouragement. There's no guarantee that the third party is actually going to stop a bullet for the victim.

In the second case, there are people in a position to make the promise and make it stick. You've already read some of those stories, where bullying stopped because of the intervention of a loved one.

That invalidates the last sentence of yours I quoted above.

Is it right to oppose bullying? Sure. But each is an individual case. Even though many will have similar solutions, it is still reasonable to encourage the victim when it is possible!

I suggest that your heat about the issue just made you choose words recklessly, and that you don't really want to spread your message of despair, or insist that far too few schoolchildren have criminal records.

I find your stories of being singled out as a youngster horrifying. And yet another clue that "redneck" is NOT peculiar to a Southern state.

"To the kids who are bullying they have to realize that words are very powerful and what you think is just fun and games isn't to some people, and you are destroying a lot of lives," Jamey's father told WIVB.

The bullies know full well that their words are hurtful and destroying lives, that's exactly why they do it.

Rad, try that again. In a way that makes sense, please.

I spread no "message of despair." I said you have no right to promise anything you cannot guarantee, and you don't. Especially, if you yourself plan on doing absolutely nothing proactive, and imagine that the laughable measure of clapping someone on the shoulder and telling them "it gets better" is actually doing something.

If someone said that to me in Junior High, I would have said "Fuck you." I don't need empty promises from disinterested bystanders who aren't proactive in solving the problems, who obviously aren't prescient and have no way of knowing if it gets better or not.

Maybe you're attracted to people who simply proffer promises they have no right to extend and who's attitude is basically, "What? ME? Do something about your miserable situation? What are you? Stupid? I'm certainly not going to do a goddamn thing about your miserable situation. You should be glad I'm telling you that it gets better, a promise I obviously cannot guarantee." But I have no use for such people, and prefer they stay the hell away from me. I view such people as cowards, beneath contempt.

And there was nothing reckless about my choice of words. I meant every one of them.

Well, when you said, "You cannot guarantee that for anyone", all you have to do is be wrong in one case for the sentence to be wrong.

That's what I meant by its being an absolute.

People with the power to makes things better make that promise and then deliver.

They have.

I get that it's not universal, but the cases where it fails are not an excuse to quit encouraging those who are struggling.

-----

I can't promise you that your life will be better on the whole right now. Should you kill yourself, once convinced you're peaked w/r/t personal accomplishment?

No.

No more than you should believe as a youngster in junior high school that the beatings would continue the rest of your life!

Well, the latter would probably be more honest, since you don't plan on doing anything to change the current situation...and in what has to be an artistic achievement in self-deception, you've convinced yourself that promising someone "it gets better" is actually doing something.

And quite frankly, the whole assurance thing that "it does get better" rings a little hollow, in light of the fact that the person in this video, extending this promise, ended up committed suicide.

Well, Patrick, I'll be sure to visit, next time I fire up the time machine.

When I see you in the past, suffering at the hands of some bully, I'll be sure to trot out the legalese, just in case you cling to my reassuring words as the absolutes you've exhibited here: "sorry, kid, I was going to say that the abuse won't go on forever and that you have a chance at a decent life, because it usually does, but since I don't know this with 100% certainty, I'm not gonna say that. You're not going to like it on down the line. In fact, you might even stop fighting on your own in some feverish dream that your personal Saviour is at hand. So I can't encourage you. In the future, you won't think that encouragement is 'doing something'".

By the way, your last sentence claims failure for the whole idea because of one case.

Look up the Nizkor Project and "fallacies". It's not just me.

I believe that the mom is responsible for Kaylee's disappearance. I had thought at first maybe she owed someone a large amount of money (drug dealers) and they have taken Kaylee until mom pays up. But as time goes by and from the mom's behavior I beleive she either killed her accidently or just didnt want to be burdeoned with here anymore so she could continue her partying life style. As far as the Grandparents either they know exactly happended to their Grandaughter and just don't want to believe their daughter is capable of this type of crime. But as a Grandmother myself I would not hesitate to turn my child in if I felt they had something to do with my Grandchilds disapperance. And there is no way I would have gone a month or more without seeing my Grandchild. I hope Kaylee is found safe but as time goes by it looks less likely that will happen. God bless you Kaylee and know that people all over have been praying for you and your safe return.