I think it's much easier for males -- people accept their disinterest in children even at a young age.

What I learned, from this and other conversations on the subject with women who are parents, is that it is usually quite difficult to explain your decision not to have children to those who have chosen to do so without offending them in some unspoken but very deep and palpable way.

Which is one of many reasons a woman (or a man, for that matter) shouldn't feel the need to "explain" it, justify it or allow it to become a subject of debate.

I'm in my fifties, and childless (mostly by choice, and partly by luck). As a guy, explanations don't seem to be the order of the day, it never seems to come up as an issue.

Many of those who have chosen to have children, though, seem to behave as though they need some kind of social validation of their choice.

The existence of those who don't choose to procreate (especially women it seems) is interpreted as some kind of repudiation of the life choice of the child bearers.

In between the lines of all of the arguments for having children is the unspoken assertion that 'I suffered and sacrificed to drop some crotchfruit on the planet, and you should have done the same!'

Granted, no one having children would also be counterproductive (in the long run, for sure), but everyone having children isn't that much better.

I've never gotten behind the idea that the life choices of another person should be of any significant interest to me (unless, of course, they're trying to make me pay for it).

If you say you dont believe in God be prepared for a thousands suns to burn upon you. As a woman saying you dont want children is something akin to that.

If you speak to a pregnant woman to her child bearing is akin to a spiritual experience where you connect with God/ life force etc.
Also it's how most women find meaning, and there is nothing wrong with finding meaning in a family except......

If you notice tons of single women feel the need to get pregnant.
It's like this force in women to be mothers no.matter.what. because that's how they believe they will find happiness.

Whether happiness is achieved or not few women will admit the truth.

Also:

The meaning of life to most women is to be a mother. Once they become mothers that is how they define themselves.

You as a childless woman dont define yourself by children. It's like how we atheists dont get our morals from God/Bible etc.

It just blows their mind as to how meaning or morals can come from something else. Ya know?

As a mother, I have a lot of things to say about this subject. I can no longer imagine life without my children, but I would be lying if I said it was empty and pointless for the first 28 years. Of course, both of my children are planned. Maybe a lot of mothers feel they had motherhood forced on them and want everyone else to feel just as resentful? I don't know.

I think the world would be a wonderful place if everybody wanted children. I also think that if you don't want children, for the love of all that is good and holy don't have any. You won't be doing anyone any favors. I firmly believe that a prerequisite for being a good parent is wanting the job.

It's absolutely true that you have to give up a lot when you have children. Shouldn't we applaud people for being honest enough to admit they can't do that? Is it really more selfish to remain childless than to have children you don't really want? I know what I think the answer is.

@Slate commenter Margaret Gonang: "...having children was essential because it opened one up to a world of opportunities one would otherwise not have."

Actually that's true. But it's not terribly meaningful, since not having children opens a world of opportunities as well. Ms. Gonang further suggests that the hostility she faces from some mothers comes from envy, or a silent repudiation of their lifestyle. She may be right, but it's tough to read others' minds. As a male, I don't see or sense the hostility. Why do people get so worked up about the choice to have children?

I love my children more than I do myself. Having said that, I think that it's important that people consider all the repercussions to having children before diving in.

My mother never seemed that interested in BEING a mother, it was just a means to an end (hey, I'm pregnant, now we have to get married). I think its so much better for someone to admit to not wanting children than to follow some social norm and have children that they don't want. I respect their decision, and I wish most people would do the same. It sucks growing up knowing that you are a burden.

By the way, my personal favorite quote from my mom, "It's not that I wish I didn't have you guys, I just wish I would have waited so I could have enjoyed my life more." This before taking off on us for a couple of years. Luckily, I have an amazing dad and wonderful aunts that were more than willing to play mom for me. Seriously, who needs that as a child?

Every choice precludes others. Nobody has it all.

I read the Slate piece last night. I don't give a rat's patoot about some superskinny chesty woman being unable to find a pluthera of bras in her size. If it were profitable, stores would cater. It's not some conspiracy against the chesty.

It's not supereasy for me to find pants long enough. Does society hate the tall? Pure fluff, no point to the article whatsoever.

I don't see why people care if others have kids. Enough of us do to keep the species going. All we ask is you not look down on US because of our choice.

If the childless don't want people to smugly assume they'll change their mind, they ought to get upset with all the highprofile people who swear they don't want kids, then change their minds.

I can no longer imagine life without my children, but I would be lying if I said it was empty and pointless for the first 28 years.

Half of this. I cannot imagine my life without my girls; but before they came along, the first 34 years of my life had me wandering around, kind of aimlessly. Having my girls gave me something more than myself to focus on, and while it's been an amazing journey so far, it has not been without its difficult moments.

That said, when I see friends of mine who don't have kids, I'm not resentful in the least. Some of them are happy, some aren't. And the ones who aren't know it's too late to have their own biological children, and I think they might have regrets about that. And to be honest, I'm actually glad that a couple of them don't have kids, because they're so wrapped up in themselves that I don't think they'd have been able to handle it. Then I've got a couple other friends who I think would've made awesome moms, but it just wasn't in the cards for them. They've made do with being aunties to my girls, but as one of them said to me "you're so brave for doing what I just knew I couldn't, because it would have been too overwhelming for me. But thanks for sharing your girls with me. They're as amazing as you are." And that made me feel good about my decision to have them. No regrets here!

If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have kids. I love my daughters and I really love my grandkids and now that they're here, I enjoy them, most of the time. But parenting isn't easy and it's a mostly thankless job. I've also been known to say, rather tongue-in-cheek (but I'm so serious)advice of "Be smart, don't start" to women who are trying to become pregnant.

I regard my decision not to reproduce as one of the smarter things I've done in my life.

>> it is usually quite difficult to explain your decision
>> not to have children to those who have chosen
>> to do so without offending them

> Which is one of many reasons a woman (or a man,
> for that matter) shouldn't feel the need to "explain" it,
> justify it or allow it to become a subject of debate.

I strongly disagree. We've not been put on this planet so that we can pursue our choices without discussion, or in some shadow of shame. I can talk about my beliefs and feelings on this topic most of all with considerable precision, and with proper weight to morality, biology, interpersonal consequences, social impacts, and personal aesthetics.

What I've noticed is that the people most inclined to regard my childlessness as some sort of offense are those who best need to be offended.

I want to oblige, always!

Because they also tend to regard their own impulses as handcrafted by God in Heaven, and correcting this mis-perception is just plain fuuuuun!

Having a few Amys a Purplepens around makes it easier.

I can't imagine what people who are having kids right now must be thinking. Maybe they don't realize how bad things are going to get during the next 20 years or so.

I wonder if women who get angry about those who remain childless are secretly envious. They might be thinking about the time and money saved by not having children, the freedom to do other things, etc.

In other words, "I had to suffer with this, why should YOU get off scot-free?"

"I can't imagine what people who are having kids right now must be thinking. Maybe they don't realize how bad things are going to get during the next 20 years or so."

It can be a heavy weight at times. But one sure way not to live your life to it's fullest and in a purposeful meaningful way is to live it around all the future "what if's". "Everything must be just right before I can....." . It's a miserable existence, because really, WHO THE F&%$ knows what will happen in 20 years?!

Things change. Times change. I am certain at MOST points in history, someone could have said the exact same thing.

The truth is, despite our sorry excuse for a political system - we (in the year 2012) have it better off as humans right now, than at any other time in history - hands down.

And....what M4 and Flynne said too.

I am glad I am having kids later in life (pregnant now at 36). If I had them any younger, before I knew who I was or worked through my shit - I would have done a lot of damage. It was not planned, but I will tell you - when the news came, it was the first time in my life I felt in complete acceptance - even though, the "timing" could have been better in my OCD world of "everything must fit perfectly into my plan...
.

For the first time in my life, I kinda feel like having my cake and eating it too is a possibility - because I just have that perspective now.

And I don't look down on anyone who is childless - that was my direction for a very long time. But things change. I had a feeling it would for me, but until it was a certainty - I made absolutely positive I was extra cautious not to bring a new little human onto this planet unless I (and stb husband) was 100% committed to a family.

For whatever reason, things just fell in line for me. I couldn't be happer about it. And I was able to live a good chunk of my younger years to their fullest without being tied down.

Just a note about connotation.

"Childless" describes the basic situation of having no children.

"Childfree," while it can be a synonym, is also the term most used by people who made a conscious choice not to have children. It has a more positive connotation, in that we feel we are free from having children.

Childfree people are a subset of childless people, but "childless" can also imply a sad, unwanted state. Childless people want or grieve. (Generalization of course.)

Personally I am happily childfree, but I ADORE my friends' kids. I'm Auntie Joey to them and I love it.

I couldn't imagine grilling someone about why they don't have kids. Sometimes it's not an actual choice.

I know. A decision (if it is a decision) that is so personal, and so irrelevant to my well-being...why ask anyone such a thing?

"Well, what's wrong with YOU that you don't want to have children???"

Whether someone has children or not, unless they plan on accusing me of being the father, couldn't concern me less.

There is some prejudice against men who want to be child free as well. Before I turned 30 I inquired into getting a vasectomy several times. Basically the attitude was "We won't let you make that choice until you're older or have had kids already."

I'm now in my mid 40's and still child free. In my 30's I was with a lady who had a tubal ligation and a daughter that was already out of the house.

If I date anyone at this point, most of them are close to (past) change of life and/or had their kids already.

"If the childless don't want people to smugly assume they'll change their mind, they ought to get upset with all the highprofile people who swear they don't want kids, then change their minds"

I'm not sure I understand this argument. What does another person's decision to procreate--or not--have to do with my decision not to?

seems like this is snowflake syndrome... Just a need that people have, to feel that their personal decisions are somehow important enough for a infinite impersonal universe to care about... so that the night isn't quite so scary.

In the case of children, it's so much more gravity to the situation versus what you had for breakfast this morning... and the decision or lack of it is so much longer lasting.

I'm sure people who get their skirts in a bunch over this question, for or against, would find something else to get upset about if that wasn't a question...

"you can't possibly be thinking of sending your kid to _____ school."
"you can't possibly be thinking of feeding your kid that lunch..."

I find it strange and rude that people even ask about whether you want children. I know most people think it's an appropriate and innocent question, but it's always been a rather invasive question to me. It used to be because I didn't want children, and I didn't want to hear for the millionth time "you'll change your mind" or some other condescending BS. At that time in my life, I did NOT want children, and I did not want to hear from someone who didn't know me well enough to say so, that I would change my mind. If I change my mind, it was none of their business.

Now though, I find it rude because I've been through a miscarriage, and after deciding I wanted a baby, that was the most devastating thing to go through. I have a cousin who has wanted children her entire life, and you know what? She had four miscarriages before she was able to get pregnant and give birth to a healthy son. So those questions like "when are you going to have a baby?" can really sting in the wrong circumstances.

Obviously it's important for people who are dating to ask those sorts of questions.. but I'm talking about people who will in no way be a part of making the baby, asking those questions.

I am childfree. My best friend is childless. I can feel sadness for her never getting what she wanted, but I'll never be able to know what it's like to want a baby, any more than she can know what it's like to not want one.

I got my share of incredulous looks from women about now wanting babies, and nobody ever called me selfish, because that was often my lead sentence: "I'm too selfish." Took the wind right out of their sales.

"I'm too selfish."

How can you force someone to participate the game of life and death without asking for their permission?

It is like shoving someone into the middle of the football game and tell her/him to "Play! You better enjoy it, too. I don't care if you want to play or not.".

That would be my answer if anyone asked for the reason for being childfree.

Eek! I just saw I wrote about "now wanting babies", and I meant "NOT wanting babies"! That changes the whole message, sorry sorry sorry. I'm 56, and no, I do not want babies.

Damn. I'm pretty sure I read it twice, too.

One of those Freudian slips, maybe. All these years I yearned for kids and never knew it.

Isn't the reasons most people have children selfish?
There is nothing wrong with being selfish, that's we survive.

I think still is taboo in the US to not want children. More so for women than men. I know I have gotten grieve about it particularly from women. One woman decided not to date me because I didn't want kids (at least that is what she told me) even though she was unable to have kids.

One piece I don't understand is so far every woman has wanted a child by her mid 30s if she did not have some sort of fill-in - e.g. a lady I knew dated a guy with a kid who she was a de facto step mom through her thirties.

The meaning of life to most women is to be a mother. Once they become mothers that is how they define themselves.

You as a childless woman dont define yourself by children. It's like how we atheists dont get our morals from God/Bible etc.

It just blows their mind as to how meaning or morals can come from something else. Ya know?

Posted by: Purplepen at September 18, 2012 12:08 AM
____________________________

As therapist/writer John Rosemond has often said: "The modern woman wouldn't dream of making her husband a sandwich on command, but she'll jump up and pour a glass of water for an able-bodied 4-year-old."

And, sadly, too many modern feminists see nothing wrong with that - or they just don't think hard enough about it.

In the meantime, the rude, nosy people who keep asking "WHY don't you have/want children" will only be stopped when people learn to say "um, don't you think that's pretty personal?"

I've almost never had anyone ask any similar questions of me. (I'm in Massachusetts, where it's probably safe to say that most people understand that that particular question IS too personal.) However, you never know what's going to set off the diehard natalists. When JFK Jr. crashed his plane, I casually said to an ex-friend "oh well, at least they didn't make orphans out of any poor kids" and he was shocked and said "what do you mean? It's TERRIBLE they didn't have kids!"

Get this - he wasn't even much of a Kennedy fan, to my knowledge; he was a Republican.

And, as I've mentioned before, many have pointed out that if childhood is supposed to be so "rewarding" (which some consider nothing more than a post-Industrial Revolution myth), how can it be called selfish NOT to have kids? Besides, how dare anyone think of those hard-working people who benefit MANY people - such as teachers, doctors and firefighters - as being selfish?

Not to mention that even not-so-unselfish people can get away with being childfree if they just have enough dazzle in their reputations. E.g., I suspect most adults, young or old, care very little about whether or not their favorite movie stars or singers were - gasp - childfree or just childless. Here's where you can see such famous women - and non-entertainers as well, such as Rosa Parks:

http://pinterest.com/oliviareading/childless-and-child-free-women/

Finally, from Bratfree:

blackpearl
Re: The "I got bingo-ed" thread
September 16, 2012

"I also hate medical professionals who do that. I had somthing similar happen to me when i had my last check up to take my BC pills. Since it was a new doctor (i went to the univerisity medical services) i made it clear from the beginning that i'm CF. So, the mention of kids wouldn't come during the consultation. I think my words came out of her other ear because not only did she mention the 'WHEN you have kids' TWICE, she proceeded telling me how a fetus would develop while doing a routine ultrasound.

"I told her then: 'what part of i NEVER want kids don't you get?' She just looked at me as if i had two heads and coldly wrote the prescription. It really upset me that she didn't listen to me, completely dismissing my statement."

"Enough of us do to keep the species going."

We dont care if the species dies off. I dont believe we are here because some Creator made us for some special universe/life force purpose. I think we are just here for the same reason 99% of species that have gone extinct are.

"All we ask is you not look down on US because of our choice."

We dont look down, especially on anyone that actually takes care of their kids. It's just you know kids are a)annoying b)no real meaning that doing other shit with your time.

Oops...

b) no real meaning that doing other shit with your time wont fulfill.

And look what I'm saying is you should find meaning in what YOU want to do, and don't expect others to find meaning in the same things. Children or no children- whatever.

I doubt Crid gets the same thrill from buying a Chanel lipstick that I do.

Interesting. I love my kids - but I don't really LIKE kids in general (I think I've mentioned that here before).

I don't think it's quite fair of an assessment to stay with a family (or even babysit) for a week and see if it "works" because half the problem is knowing your own kids. I know what works and won't for them. Stepping in is MUCH harder for that reason. If I'd done that, I probably wouldn't have had kids (I almost never babysat as a teen- once in an emergency was it I think).

Of course, it could also be that many kids are underparented - I'd like to think mine are not.

It is really hard work, but you can't really "prepare" for it because "it" is a lifetime job and we only get one of those to work with! That said, if you are the sort of person who gets annoyed when a golden retriever drops a tennis ball at your feet for the third time, you probably aren't cut out for it because repetition is a big part of the job.

I wonder if some of the people who insist you MUST have kids really didn't want to but were told that (maybe at a young age?) and really just believe it blindly... causing massive insecurity on the topic.

> I wonder if some of the people who insist you
> MUST have kids really didn't want to but were
> told that (maybe at a young age?) and really
> just believe it blindly... causing massive
> insecurity

I hear ya.

'One woman decided not to date me because I didn't want kids (at least that is what she told me) even though she was unable to have kids."

That doesn't seem odd. Unable to birth them doesn't mean she doesn't want to HAVE them. If adoption was in her life plan, you were not the man for her.

There's nothing I like better than seeing someone using the term "bratfree" complain about people being snarky to THEM about not having kids. Pot, kettle.

Momof4: That would make sense.

In this case on our first date she made it quite clear she couldn't have kids and was not interested in adopting...maybe if she found a guy she really liked who already had a kid she might consider it. At the time she said she thought it was wierd that I didn't want kids. After date 3 (maybe 4) she said it was just too wierd for her. Everyone should want to have kid of their own. So she was going to soldier on and look for a guy who wanted kids but couldn't have kids.

See also.

> There's nothing I like better than seeing
> someone using the term "bratfree" complain about
> people being snarky to THEM about not having
> kids. Pot, kettle.

I guess I don't see the discontinuity which you find to be worthy of sarcasm.

I think it's coherent to hold both these positions at one time; [A] that children are often unappealing company and [B] that parents are often indefensibly pompous about their own fecundity and/or about the disinclination of others to babymake.

(In my observation, the conjunctive operator is prevalent for [B]. They're trying to prove things to people... Specifically, to people who don't care. It's weird.)


Some snark's better than other snark.

> I think we are just here for the same reason
> 99% of species that have gone extinct are.

Yes.

People who believe there's some grand purpose or destination for humanity are almost always looking for a buggywhip with which to guide the rest of us.

For all her endless cruelties and despite her indomitable authority, Mother nature doesn't give a fuck.

*****If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't have kids. I love my daughters and I really love my grandkids and now that they're here, I enjoy them, most of the time. But parenting isn't easy and it's a mostly thankless job. I've also been known to say, rather tongue-in-cheek (but I'm so serious)advice of "Be smart, don't start" to women who are trying to become pregnant.*****

And, thank you for your honesty. Too many people in your situation are in the "misery loves company" camp.

*****I am childfree. My best friend is childless. I can feel sadness for her never getting what she wanted, but I'll never be able to know what it's like to want a baby, any more than she can know what it's like to not want one.*****

This, is spades. I've never understood fertility treatments, IVF, etc. I'm sure the reverse is also true.

And on the whole "selfishness" issue:

The height of selfishness is wanting your DNA to move into the next generation. Really, if it was about parenting, you'd adopt. Oh, you can't have a baby? Boo hoo. Adopt an older kid. It's about parenting, right?

No, it's not. It's about furthering your DNA. (I don't care that that's why you have kids, I care that you won't ADMIT it).

And people? I'm 46. The next person who tells me "I still have time" is going to be pulling my size nine out of his or her ass.

I understand why someone might wish to remain childless.

But I can't help think of the movie "Idiocracy".

On a semi related note, what happens to a country whose reproductive age generation chooses more and more not to reproduce?

Is it "selfish" to not have children? Well selfish is, by nature, essentially holding something back from someone else.

It could be argued, and quite rationally, that the decision to have no children, is withholding a contribution to the future of the nation, or the culture, or just society, pick your term.

With to few children, the infrastructure cannot be maintained, the work cannot be done, the aging cannot be properly cared for, and so it goes.

Do we have no obligation the future, or is it so unimportant that personal desires are the sole guiding principal of life?

Profound arguments could be made for either side, but either way, its easily understandable why the "child free by choice" way of life has a bit of a stigma to it.

I've known from the age of 12 I didn't want children. Older women patted me on the head and smirked that I'd change my mind. They were still doing that when I was in my 40s. I got married for the first and only time at the age of 51. People at my wedding actually asked if we were going to "start a family!" I replied, "that ship has sailed." My husband didn't want children either. We just aren't child-oriented. Sadly, neither are half the people that foist their ill-mannered brats on the world.

> But I can't help think of the movie "Idiocracy".

And I can't help thinking about the movie "Casablanca."

It's not relevant or anything, it's just a great ol' Hollywood movie.

> Do we have no obligation the future, or is
> it so unimportant that personal desires are
> the sole guiding principal of life?

This calls to mind the L.A. radio psychologist who used to reject the popular fascination with the "inner child." He noted that nobody ever talks about the "inner adult" from which children can draw courage as they anticipate and aspire to times of greater strength and clarity.

It works in the other direction, too—

What did the future ever do for me? This is very much a part of what Purplepen was talking about.

You're not thinking about it until you finish this sentence, but there's a quart of air in your lungs. And you're looking forward to the next one as I mention it. Those gases are literally the shit of organisms that ruled this planet for billions of years, long before there were birds or wildebeests or human beings. Those single-celled organisms didn't produce that material to make you possible, and certainly not to make you happy; they were pursuing their own interests.

Most culture is that way, too. Maybe you had a grandfather in WWII or something who wanted good things for you, but beyond that, people were doing what they could do to survive (and very occasionally thrive) in the moment.

We cannot be guilt-tripped into a better future.

> With to few children, the infrastructure cannot
> be maintained, the work cannot be done, the
> aging cannot be properly cared for, and so it
> goes.

It goes in no such direction whatsoever. There are seven billion fuckers on this globe, a lot of them hungry. 'Staffing' has never been the problem on this planet... Lots of people make lots of babies, and those babies will grow up to seek ways to make themselves useful. (And richer.) I promise, there will be plenty of people to wipe your ass when you're grey and drooling.

Meanwhile, it wouldn't kill you to bone up on your Spanish. Repeat after me:

¿Se acordó de cambiar mi bolsa de colostomía?

I am childfree and I was once told I would "change my mind". I said, "oh, ok, I guess if that happens, I will figure out a plan to fix it. What are you going to do about your kids if you change your mind?" They didn't seem to see that as a valid question, but after all, if I don't know my own mind, maybe they don't either. They didn't get it.

Also, Marla, if you ever decide cheat on your husb...

Nevermind.

"for the same reason 99% of species that have gone extinct are."

Correction: 99.9% of all species that have ever existed have gone extinct. But WE have a higher purpose right right?

"is withholding a contribution to the future of the nation, or the culture, or just society, pick your term"

I remember one comedian once said something along the lines of "you think that because you are an American and I'm American and you are popping all these fat asshole babies I should give more of a shit for them" No seriously, countries that are underpopulated make really good places to live.

Also you know humans will go extinct, right? It's just a matter of when.

Having kids really isn't for everyone. Mine are 6 and 7 now and I'm already dreading the day they move out. A measly 10 year and they could be out of the house and it breaks my heart. I love everything about being a father. I love our mornings, eating breakfast, I love their silly chatting, love them singing when they're in their baths, love wathing them at night, love when they call for me because they have nightmares. Being a father isn't what I do; it's what I AM.

But still, I really understand those who opt out. Having kids is not for everyone. It's not 'right' or necessary for everyone.

Having mine was the coolest thing I ever did. I've visited every continent save for Antarctica; I've made lots of money, bedded beautiful women; eaten at great and awfully expensive restaurants and none of it matters - I'd give it all up in a heartbeat for the moments of giving my kids their formula and just holding them as they fall asleep in my arms. But having kids is not for everyone and you NOT having kids could easily be the coolest thing you ever did.

"Meanwhile, it wouldn't kill you to bone up on your Spanish. Repeat after me:"

Damn. Learning how to speak English was hard enough for me.

Now, I have to learn how to speak Spanish.

I don't agree with most Catholic doctrine, but to me, their position on artificial reproduction is right-on: Find some other way to achieve fulfillment in life! For them, the idea of being childless isn't taboo.

PS for P-pen: If you're ever in L.A., I'll take you out to buy lipsticks.

*****Having kids really isn't for everyone. Mine are 6 and 7 now and I'm already dreading the day they move out. A measly 10 year and they could be out of the house and it breaks my heart. I love everything about being a father. I love our mornings, eating breakfast, I love their silly chatting, love them singing when they're in their baths, love wathing them at night, love when they call for me because they have nightmares. Being a father isn't what I do; it's what I AM.*****

And if more parents were like you, I would have a whole lot less to bitch about. I suspect you don't drag your kids to inappropriate places long after their bedtimes and annoy the crap out of the rest of us. So, thank you. And please talk to your peers. :D

"¿Se acordó de cambiar mi bolsa de colostomía?"

This is a question for which the "tu" form should be used. One day Google translate will get the sense of queries rather than default to the formal address.

If you're willing to change my colostomy bag, you'll be addressed as you prefer.

There's nothing I like better than seeing someone using the term "bratfree" complain about people being snarky to THEM about not having kids. Pot, kettle.

Posted by: momof4 at September 18, 2012 6:44 PM
_____________________________

Please keep in mind that that was merely the name of the site and not a term Blackpearl necessarily uses. I suspect that Blackpearl is quite young and was probably not one of the creators of the site, which, IIRC, is at least five years old. So it's hardly fair to criticize her for her complaints just because that forum MIGHT be the most sympathetic place for her to vent in.

Robert said:

On a semi related note, what happens to a country whose reproductive age generation chooses more and more not to reproduce?
___________________________

Well, that's what happened during the Great Depression - in the U.S. at least. (I wonder how they did it, generally, since I suspect even married couples couldn't always legally get or afford diaphragms.) The result? We had less hunger than we would have had otherwise. Not bad!

Even so, the GLOBAL population, at least, managed to rise over that decade - and the same thing happened in the 1940s despite the millions of lives lost in WWII!
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Is it "selfish" to not have children? Well selfish is, by nature, essentially holding something back from someone else.

It could be argued, and quite rationally, that the decision to have no children, is withholding a contribution to the future of the nation, or the culture, or just society, pick your term.
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And there's no guarantee that even the best parents won't see their child grow up to be Henry Hill (Goodfellas). "Good wombs have born bad sons."
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With to few children, the infrastructure cannot be maintained, the work cannot be done, the aging cannot be properly cared for, and so it goes.

Do we have no obligation the future, or is it so unimportant that personal desires are the sole guiding principal of life?
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We have an obligation to give more than we consume in resources. The average American doesn't do that. We also have an obligation to ourselves to adjust to any unstoppable forces.

Example:

It was inevitable the automobile would be invented.

It was inevitable that, as a result, many, many businesses would be destroyed, along with the families that created them.

It was inevitable that many of those people would pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and learn new skills to avoid going homeless and hungry. Many, of course, went into the auto industry. In short, they accepted the idea of a new kind of economy, horribly painful though it
was.

In the same vein, since good contraception methods have been pursued since ancient times, it was inevitable that we would have all the methods we do after several thousand years, and that we would decide that "every child should be a wanted child." Why don't we try to adjust to that? Yes, we will have great economic problems. Maybe it's time to return to personal frugality and a stronger work ethic, since that was the way of most of the world until the 20th century, according to David M. Tucker's book, "The Decline of Thrift in America: Our Cultural Shift from Saving to Spending." We must learn to enjoy spending on the NEEDS of the elderly rather than on the LUXURIES of the young. Many countries have always believed in putting the elderly first. Why doesn't so much of the Western world?Not to mention that the environment can live without humans, but not the other way around.

In short, just because our economy is based on buying luxuries, credit card debt, massive pollution, and not-so-wanted babies doesn't mean it has to stay that way. Let's consider other methods.

...and you, Jesper, are why this planet is worth living on. I give you first place standing as a human being. To the rest of you, if you love anything irreplaceable as much as Jesper loves his children, then you get honorable mention.