I know you can take advantage of people like that but why would you?

They are acting like legal thiefs.

Most internships are illegal. In order to qualify as an internship and therefore be exempt from various labor laws, the position has to be primarily educational and satisfy a list of criteria.

But the worst abusers of internships are industries which overwhelmingly supported Obama, and a crackdown will upset upper-bracket voters who like this system because it gives their kids an edge over competitors who can't afford to take low-paying jobs in expensive cities.

Romney could have made a play for the campus vote by promising to end illegal internships, but there's a reason the GOP is called the stupid party.

"When will this change a little? Maybe when some 22-year-old working 22-hour days falls asleep behind the wheel and takes out a family of four."

Unfortunately, the only likely thing to result from this is a regulation requiring self-steering cars, and possibly another notch toward the number of fatalities required for the installation of a guard rail on the section of road where it occurred.

I wonder if these types of internships are typically relegated to the two left coasts?

Here in Texas, the only internships that I've seen in the San Antonio metro area have been paid internships in technical fields.

Are these unpaid and overworked types of fake internships isolated to the "artistic" fields?

Romney could have made a play for the campus vote by promising to end illegal internships, but there's a reason the GOP is called the stupid party.

And you think that would have worked? Do you seriously believe that the youth vote would have gone to Romney if he had done what you suggest?

If so, I have a bridge for sale, cheap. Look, it's hard to fight against the part of Santa Claus that promises every thing to every one.

Sorry, I'm just not sure there's a problem here. Young people who have great things to offer will sell them at competitive prices. Those who don't have great things to sell learn how to make them... over time.

I know this from my own career: Media jobs attract young people who've got no idea how to create wealth of any kind, but are attracted to focus points of public attention.

I mean, some of the manifestations of this that I've seen from young producers (and sometimes other techs) have been just jaw-droppingly naive.

The indentured servant makes a comeback.

"The indentured servant makes a comeback"

I don't think there's anything really wrong with that.

Sheep need shepherds. Perhaps they should get a degree that doesn't end with the word "studies".

If 22-year-olds work so hard that they kill people on the drive home, they should be held accountable for irresponsible behavior. Our planet —at least this American corner of it— is crawling with folks who worked like bloody Hell when they were 22 years old, but didn't kill people.

There is nothing new under the sun. There's nothing special about this recession/depression, and nothing special about working in media.

Life is about choices. There are too many people who think it would be cool to turn their hobby into a career. The thing is: creative fields make great hobbies, but lousy careers.

Tens of millions of people play music. Hundred of thousands of them play really, really well. Some of the best theater I have ever seen was put on by amateurs, in a seedy, unheated little building that nobody else wanted. With apologies to our hostess, it's the same thing for writing. How many millions of people blog, write stories, maybe even earn a bit of beer money?

To make a living at any of these things takes incredible talent, hard work, and just plain luck.

' "The indentured servant makes a comeback"

I don't think there's anything really wrong with that.'

The one thing I see wrong with it is the ones in the intern racket are the ones pushing minimum wage laws and 'living wages' on everyone else, just with them as exceptions.

"But the worst abusers of internships are industries which overwhelmingly supported Obama"

I'm thinking this could be a real contender for the hyperbole trophy and/or plaque on Amy's blog comments, maybe in the top five.

It looks like, in a saturated, highly competitive market, young people are seeking ways to make themselves more competitive and get their foot in the door by calling themselves interns and circumventing the regulations that prohibit them from selling their labor for what the market will bear. I suppose the government could require that interns be paid some politically determined wage, based on feelings about fairness, but then most of the young "interns" would end up with nothing and no hope, however naive or unrealistic, of ever working in their dream career.

Back in late 1979, when I was in my 20's and married with two babies, and the minimum wage was a little over $4 an hour, and unemployment in Orange County was approaching 13%... every morning from 6:30 to around 10:00 I walked from one business to another asking for a job. The rest of the day I did odd jobs at people's homes for cash, at prices that amounted to about $1-3 an hour, to get enough to buy that evening's meal and hopefully the next day's breakfast and lunch for my wife and baby girls.

Most people passed up my offer of super cheap labor. Some even told me that even though they needed or wanted repairs or work done they couldn't afford to pay me a "fair" price at that time and wouldn't take advantage of me. That didn't help me. It just made it take that much longer to find someone who would take advantage of me so I wouldn't have to go home empty handed.

When someone is willing to work super cheap, either they really, really need the money, or they really, really, want that job. Their reasons for working so cheap are far more valuable to them than the difference between the amount they're willing to work for and the amount that's "fair".

." Young people who have great things to offer will sell them at competitive prices"

Illegal immigrants sell their services at very competitive prices, doesn't mean we should take advantage of them.

My problem with internships is quite simple, it excludes people who don't have the money to intern. My friend used to talk about how everyone would talk about their trips to Europe etc.
If you have mom and dad paying for you great, but not everyone does.

BTW my friends that had mom and dad pay for rent, school, internships etc. now make way more than my friends who had to work 3 jobs, and go to school to make it.

Last January, while 4 months shy of finishing a post-baccalaureate program in paralegal studies, I got an unpaid internship that was advertised at my school. I interviewed with 2 firms and picked the sole practitioner. I was unpaid for a week, then minimum wage until I finished school. Her reasoning was that i was doing work for her and should be compensated accordingly, even though i was incredibly green. She gave me 4 more raises, we got her business off the ground and I'm now a full-time employee with health insurance and other benefits. She saw the value in me and took a leap of faith paying me when money was extremely tight. Lawyers need paralegals and a competent one who can do all the other jobs at the firm (receptionist, secretary, bookkeeper, court runner) is worth the investment.

My classmate who took the internship I passed on ended up being hired full time but only at $10/hr. last I heard, 8 months after school ended, we were the only 2 that had jobs as working paralegals.

I wouldn't have continued working for her if she wasn't paying me. I needed to support myself and I couldn't work for free. I can only assume that the kids doing unpaid internships are either being supported by their parents, are living on student loans or a combination of both.

Right now i'd strangle dolphins for $22K a year.

> Their reasons for working so cheap are far more
> valuable to them than the difference between the
> amount they're willing to work for and the
> amount that's "fair".

☑

'Zactly.

> Illegal immigrants sell their services at
> very competitive prices, doesn't mean we
> should take advantage of them.

Well, they're illegal immigrants. That's one reason it's illegal, is that it screws up our pursuit of virtue. The problem isn't with them, but the problem isn't market forces, either.

Ppen: "BTW my friends that had mom and dad pay for rent, school, internships etc. now make way more than my friends who had to work 3 jobs, and go to school to make it."

That's great! One of the things many parents sacrifice and work their asses off for is the ability to give their children advantages that enable them to do better than the parents were able to do.

When I was a teenager in high school my parents provided me with shelter and most of my food and clothing while I worked part time for $1.35 an hour. I learned how to get a job and exchange work for pay. Going to college was considered an unrealistic dream, way beyond the financial abilities of our family. The knowledge and experience I gained during adolescence, with my parents' support, helped me get through some pretty tough times. I did eventually go to college in my late 30's.

Later on in life I went without a lot of things I would like to have had or done in order to help my daughters with some of their room and board, tuition, transportation and other expenses while they went to college and worked part time. I also helped my younger daughter while she did an internship in Washington, DC. Both girls were able to acquire education and experience they could not have acquired without help. As a result they now do work they like doing, and enjoy incomes and standards of living beyond what I've been able to achieve. I expect my grandchildren, with their parent's support, will do even better. This is a good thing.

If I were richer I could have helped my girls do even better; and if I were poorer I could not have helped them much at all. But I've never resented whatever advantages and support parents richer than I are able to give their children to make their lives happier and more prosperous.

"Illegal immigrants sell their services at very competitive prices, doesn't mean we should take advantage of them."

How would we be taking advantage of them? Are they mentally handicapped children?

Each illegal immigrant who is willing to work at "very competitive prices" has intimate and detailed knowledge of his/her own circumstances, and having weighed the available options has determined that he/she is better off working at "very competitive prices" than not working at all.

I learned from personal experience (see my post above) that when someone is offering their labor really, really cheap, it's because there is something they want from the transaction that is a lot more valuable to them than the difference between the price they're asking and the price you think is "fair" (In my case it was food to feed my family) You are not doing them any favors by deciding for them that they're better off not working at all than working for an "unfair" wage.

I am very strongly agree with Ken.

I used to think Americans were the best in the world at finding the correct prices for things.

Nowadays it feels like the majority is interested in setting prices through government ... even though they're not involved in the transaction. Infantile concerns about fairness have supplanted good attention to customers and vendors.

They could move to North Dakota and make some real money, but so un-glam. Or decide to be a gaffer rather than a wanna-be producer.

"The one thing I see wrong with it is the ones in the intern racket are the ones pushing minimum wage laws and 'living wages' on everyone else, just with them as exceptions."

Precisely. Whenever you see someone in the "creative" industries arguing for tax increases, keep in mind that you are looking at someone who themselves does not pay taxes. The arts industries enjoy a whole slew of tax breaks, waivers, and legal exemptions; there is nothing comparable in any other industry. Azengoth had a great point: there are no companies doing this unpaid-intern thing in the tech industies. Because if one of them did, the federal government would be on them in a New York microsecond.

Entertainment, and people who want to be in entertainment, is an abosolute glut on the market. Keep that in mind when you read about Hollywood's latest efforts to restrict access to the industry and its products -- it's just an effort to use government to keep prices artificially high.