"Are You Submissive To Men?" Victim-Feminist Asks Me In An Email
Short answer: No, I just feel powerful enough that I don't need to be a shrew.
Got a nasty little string of email from sarasmithdbt@gmail.com (among others), in the wake of Psychology Today's re-featuring of my piece on the realities about beauty on their front page.
She first tried the sneaky approach:
Amy, please please talk more about women being drawn to money and status for your female fans :)
I wrote back:
Thanks, but I'm working on my next book and I only write when they ask me to. They were doing a special issue on beauty and asked.I write this with some frequency in my column.
Also, men pretty much know that women want them to have money and status. This would not be a fascinating piece.
I suspect you are one of those who is pissed off that I would write such things about how women need to take care of themselves instead of saying that men should like ugly women with beautiful personalities.
Apparently, she has pored over my blog:
Amy, why are you defending prisoners? God who cares about them. They have no money or status.
My response:
You're kind of a sick puppy, it seems.I'm for human rights. Whether the human is a man or woman.
Why don't you just come clean, sneaky lady, about what your real issue is.
Always interesting to see the sort of people who have to resort to sneaking. Says a lot about them.
Again, got a problem with me: voice it.
I know that's not the victim-feminist way -- but try to stretch.
She writes:
Are you submissive to men?
Anybody who comments here with any frequency knows I'm not "submissive" to anyone.
The thing, you don't have to always be hammering at people if you feel strong. If you're assertive when necessary, you convey that in your demeanor and people really do not fuck with you, unless they are strangers and then, well they learn.
If you don't feel like a crumb of a person, you can be sweet to the man you're with and not have to always try to grab for power. (Of course, opening your eyes and finding a really good guy is the first step.)
On a related note, Gregg got me an iPhone and put me on a family plan with him. (I'm so frugal that I'd probably still be using my Razr phone otherwise, because I take care of my technology and it tends to last eons, but it makes him happy to give me technology.)
Anyway, yesterday, Gregg asked me whether I'd mind if he switched us from AT&T to Verizon. I said it was nice that he asked me but he really didn't have to; technology is his department and I trust whatever he thinks is best.
Now, if the issue were something I really cared about or something I knew anything about and I had a problem with his approach, I'd say something. And I sure speak up when I need to express myself. But I don't need to do it like a shrew, and Gregg certainly doesn't deserve that -- ever.
In general, I feel powerful and I am powerful. Because I act powerful. I started my own business from nothing when people told me it was impossible and then there's what I consider my greatest accomplishment: transforming myself from a friendless suckup in my early 20s into a person who stands up for our civil liberties and stands up against the rude no matter what people think of me.
Not coming from a place of insecurity means that I can just relax about having to wrest the controls away from everyone at all times.
(It must be really exhausting to be a victim-feminist.)
P.S. Sarah was one of a couple people pissed off at the PT article who intimated that I'm a "borderline."
As commenter Jerry put it here so well:
Internet diagnosis of mental illness, the first refuge of the incompetent.
From her e-mail address it seems she is a DBT Therapist.
My own therapist, whom I greatly respect and took years to find, told me that her fellow colleagues can be cray cray. Many get in the field to self-diagnose.
I've had several friends with psychology degrees and it amazes how badly put together they are. One friend I have is terrible at socializing.
What is there to be enraged about in the article? I read it and I didn't find anything you wrote well....controversial.
I mean all we have to do is look at gay men to realize how looks obsessed men are.
And then look at lesbians and realize women don't have those priorities. (I've read that obesity is more prevalent among lesbians). My relative is a lipstick lesbian and she tells me it's really hard for her to find dates because many think she's "faking" it.
What is exactly wrong with dressing well to please people? (And nobody in their right mind thinks dressing like a slut attracts the right kind of people).
Ppen at November 8, 2013 7:44 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4040168">comment from PpenInteresting, Ppen. Reminds me of that line about the hammer and everything looking then like a nail.
The other woman who wrote me was apparently a therapist, too. She had the snobbery typical to those who don't think for themselves -- that because I don't have Official Credentials, I'm somehow lesser.
I at one point was worried about that. Albert Ellis, the co-founder of cognitive behavioral therapy, was a fan of my column that then ran in the New York Daily News and told me not to bother -- that I know what I need to know it would be a waste of time getting credentialed. And PS I was going to go to a graduate program and then go on to study at his Institute and he still said, "Naw."
He also told me, "You're saner than most of the therapists I know."
Amy Alkon at November 8, 2013 8:40 AM
PPen, what's a DBT therapist (I'm too lazy to look it up on my own)?
Old RPM Daddy (OldRPMDaddy at GMail dot com) at November 8, 2013 8:58 AM
"Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), a type of psychotherapy that combines behavioral science with Buddhist concepts like acceptance and mindfulness." Wiki
It's mainly used for people who have borderline personality disorder, which is what I think she is accusing Amy of being.
Ppen at November 8, 2013 9:09 AM
"told me that her fellow colleagues can be cray cray. Many get in the field to self-diagnose."
Was dating a psych student and that was her thought too. And by the 4th date I was considering her borderline crazy too.
The scary part is these are the people who are legally defining what "normal" and "crazy" are.
Joe J at November 8, 2013 9:19 AM
There are times when I am submissive to my husband. And so what? I'm happily married of almost 7 years, I get to do what I want, when I want, and as a stay-at-home mom, I show him the deference to take charge whenever he feels he needs to exert it. We work well together and have never had a major argument. I don't know when a woman being submissive to her man became a bad thing. But like you said, if you are powerful, you don't have to walk around stomping your feet yelling that you have power.
NikkiG at November 8, 2013 9:26 AM
What is there to be enraged about in the article? I read it and I didn't find anything you wrote well....controversial.
It is unacceptable to discuss the world as it is instead of the magical place it could be if we all just tried hard enough.
Astra at November 8, 2013 9:53 AM
"She had the snobbery typical to those who don't think for themselves -- that because I don't have Official Credentials, I'm somehow lesser."
Oh that has jack shit to do with it. This is a sign that she's in academia, NIH in spades. After a 7 year tour in that suck I realized that is ALL they care about. Formal credentials only guarantee a minimal grasp of a given subject. Nothing more. Most degrees including science and engineering can be passed with nothing but hard work and memorization. Actual talent or intellect is purely optional. As is even the slightest understanding. Also as I'd like to point out Ellis as far as I know was never a certified CBT probably why he told you not to bother.
The other one is just pissed that you won't act as a soap box for her. If you use the power of the pen to push her ideas you are a great ally. Otherwise you are the reason she isn't among the esteemed of our society. IE: Albert Ellis. I believe the modern vernacular to describe her is Butt Hurt.
vlad at November 8, 2013 1:47 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4040836">comment from vladNot focusing on a narrow field of study allows me to be transdisciplinary and also to retain my free speech in a way academics do not.
People in academia (or psychology) who are not such insecure, self-important twits don't have to lord over people who don't have the sheepskin. In fact, one of them just paid to have me edit her entire book on how to learn math. She could have hired a grad student or a young Ph.D. She felt I was better -- both as a writer and a scientific thinker -- she told me. That felt good!
Amy Alkon at November 8, 2013 1:53 PM
"Not focusing on a narrow field of study allows me to be transdisciplinary "
Yes, This is one of the biggest problem with academics. Not only do they focus on credentials, and exclude actual knowledge, the other problem is that their education, is often so narrow that they lack the tools to evaluate their own research methods and assumptions, with any kind of objectivity.
Isab at November 8, 2013 2:12 PM
"People in academia (or psychology) who are not such insecure, self-important twits don't have to lord over people who don't have the sheepskin."
After 7 years I've met so few that I'm not sure I'd run out of fingers never mind toes to count them. Yes there are exceptions as there are with every imagined paradigm.
vlad at November 8, 2013 2:12 PM
Speaking of not being submissive, have you heard from Thedala Magee lately?
Canvasback at November 8, 2013 4:10 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4041045">comment from CanvasbackNope on Thedala Magee, but I do look around to make sure she's not on the gropenfrau staff when I'm at the airport.
Amy Alkon at November 8, 2013 4:20 PM
I will second what Ppen said, I have a friend who is a practicing psychologist and she said that many of her colleagues chose this area of study in order to self diagnose. That is why I take anything they say with a large grain of salt.
Sheep mommy at November 8, 2013 4:33 PM
Just curious, but how many truly "ugly women" have "beautiful personalities"?
Wouldn't taking good care of oneself be part of having a beautiful personality?
I can't imagine someone with a beautiful personality eating whatever struck her desire, not observing good hygiene, etc. till she looked like Mama June. Isn't self-respect and respect for others a necessary element of a "beautiful personality"?
Patrick at November 8, 2013 9:13 PM
Just curious, but how many truly "ugly women" have "beautiful personalities"?
Patrick, while I see your point, there are people who can do everything right and still never be all that attractive, and people who can do almost everything "wrong" and still be attractive (at least during youth). Some of us are born with more pleasing facial features and figures than others. (Though pretty much everyone, with the rare exceptions of those with uncontrollable conditions causing terrible body odor, can ensure proper hygiene.) When it comes to weight, there are certain genetic factors built in at conception and certain behavioral factors that are programmed in youth and very difficult to change significantly later on.
That having been said…I agree with your larger point in a different way. People who were not born to be beautiful, but who have wonderful personalities (and who take care of themselves reasonably well) typically come across as being much more attractive than those with terrible personalities, especially as the years go on. Beauty does have a significant subjective element to it, and while I don't disagree with Amy's thesis, I do think there are an awful lot of women who don't score high on the "objective" scale of beauty who are viewed as beautiful by their significant others. I'm not saying that if you weigh 300 pounds, wear muumuus and let your hair look like a rat's nest but spend your life tending to the poor, you will be seen as a knockout, but I do think emotion plays a role in the perception of your beauty over time. (Note those two last words!)
marion at November 9, 2013 1:49 AM
Well, as feminists are wont to do, they take the word 'submissive' to it's extreme...to a feminist 'submissive' is a complete doormat without a single original thought, a virtual slave. Any team has a captain, any company has a CEO, any neighborhood committee has a head to which others defer, giving them responsibility to make decisions for the good of the whole. Are the other team or committee members doormats? Of course not. But feminists aren't able to process the idea of letting someone else take the lead; they're too concerned with domination.
crella at November 9, 2013 3:03 AM
Anyone who is partial to someone is going to try to ease their insecurities. Obviously Ellis saw you demonstrating your insecurity about not having a Ph.D., and tried to make you feel better.
Sara at November 9, 2013 10:31 PM
One of your arguments is that men only like a certain type of woman, and "that's just the way it is" which by the way, if you actually read the academic literature you would see just how complex sexuality and relationships are, but regardless, in the professional world, Ph.D.'s only respect others Ph.D.'s, and that's just the way it is!
Sara at November 9, 2013 10:37 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4043806">comment from SaraSara is hilarious. I believe this is the same IP address as another recent nutbag writing to me accusing me of being a "borderline."
I was going to go to grad school and then pay to be trained by Ellis. He advised me not to, though he would have profited from it. It wasn't that I was all whiney about it.
Furthermore, it's small people like you, Sara, that find people like me "less" in some way. I don't judge people by their degrees or professional certification.
Let's take you for example -- sick fuck who intimates people are "borderline" via email. You're a therapist (per your email address)? Where do you work? Do let us know.
What you were, via email just now, as I saw it, was panic-stricken that I'd gone public with a sneaky email attack you thought you could get away with.
Guess what: You don't need a Ph.D. to read and vet studies. And not all of the "academic literature" is worth much."
But you are looking through the lens of your sick victim-feminism and not vetting what studies actually show what they say they do. Do tell us, where are there men who will run over the hot, young fertile women to get to the old ones? Where are the women who will date the busboys and service workers, shoving the rich guys out of the way?
Illogical and dim. But, hey, you apparently see patients!
Word to all reading here: Don't assume your therapist is worthwhile just because they have a license.
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2013 11:07 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4043812">comment from Amy AlkonEmail from sick puppy SarahSmithDBT that I got tonight -- her real concern is whether Jerry's comment I quoted (in the wake of her intimation that I'm a "borderline") is from a "nonprofessional."
Keep digging, Sarah - we're enjoying this. Where is it that you're employed?
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2013 11:12 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4043819">comment from Amy AlkonAmazingly, just before I got little turd SarahSmithDBT's email, I had just posted this on Facebook and Twitter. (I actually posted about Reboxetine earlier in the day.) "Publication Bias" is a big concern in terms of skewing the overall findings as more positive than they actually would have been (had failed studies been included).
Amazing how I can manage to put my tiny little non-Ph.D.-d, unlicensed brain to such thinking.
Sara writes: "regardless, in the professional world, Ph.D.'s only respect others Ph.D.'s, and that's just the way it is!"
Actually, it's only the way it is amongst the tiny and snobby. People who are actual thinkers in academia, who aren't insecure and needing to lord over others, don't do this. I likewise don't assume people are worthwhile simply because they have degrees. This keeps me from thinking, as Sarah does, that people are worthy of respect simply because they have Ph.D.s and put out a study in a "peer-reviewed" journal: http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124 ("Why Most Published Research Findings Are False,"John P. A. Ioannidis)
What I do is take science and turn it into helpful advice that makes a difference in ordinary people's lives. I do this best by being transdisciplinary and unlike you, SarahSmithDBT, I don't need to have a degree in psychology or anything else to read and vet studies.
Just wondering -- do you normally diagnose people by email? Isn't that, like, against the rules?
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2013 11:19 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4043834">comment from Amy AlkonAh, interestingly, per IP address, SaraSmithDBT is also elprup1234, who also accused me of being a borderline a few days ago.
erprup1234@gmail.com
She posted as: FeministversionofAmyAlkon
And also emailed me a bunch of sick crap intimating that only "professionals" should be allowed to write and speak publicly.
Her comment there:
Posted by: FeministversionofAmyAlkon at November 3, 2013 7:18 PM
Sara Smith doesn't seem to be listed as a psychologist. Maybe -- scary -- she's a psychiatrist? Her IP traces to the Los Angeles area. Anybody want to try to find her? I have to go to bed.
Amy Alkon at November 9, 2013 11:42 PM
Let's see Amy -- either you are not credible writer in a normally credible source of information or the whole source of information is not credible. If I don't trust the source overall, I'm not going to bother reading it in the first place.
Doesn't psychology involve using some amount of logic?
Jim P. at November 10, 2013 6:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4044207">comment from Jim P.I think PPen got it right in the first comment about this chickie.
I would just like to know who she is. I don't see her listed on psychologist licenses site for California. Haven't checked -- heavens -- psychiatrist licensing yet.
I have had psychiatrists in the past offer to prescribe me drugs after talking to me for 15 minutes. No testing. Just a guess. Utter bullshit. In one case, I was in my 20s and not making enough money and feeling bad about not being able to find a boyfriend. This was not a sign that I needed anti-depressants; it was a sign that I needed new strategies!
Amy Alkon at November 10, 2013 6:50 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4044224">comment from Jim P.Hilariously, this lady had to ask me why I said (via email) that mindfulness research, which is part of the DBT -- Dialectical Behavior Therapy in her email address -- is largely crap. It is. Psychiatrist friend and I just had an exchange about this -- how unbelievably, the methodology on many studies is worse than that of the research on diet/nutrition.
SaraSmithDBT wrote back, "How is it 'crap methodology'?"
Helloooo, confirmation bias!
I feel pretty sorry for any patients seeing this woman -- if she is even the doctor she pretends to be. I've found that it's grad students in training for Ph.D.s that often behave as she has. Had one tell me I know less than she does on Twitter a few weeks ago because she's a social psychologist and I'm, basically, no one. Hilarious. She's lucky I didn't have time to post that but maybe I should. I just love this kind of academic snobbery when it comes out because it shows what nonthink actually permeates academia. In my next book (after the one coming out in June), I'll expose somebody well-known who's led in this, and deceptively so.
Oh, and the editor of Psych Today just cares that what's being put out is good science. She could get Ph.D.s to write for her until the cows come home, put on bathrobes, and watch "The Voice."
Amy Alkon at November 10, 2013 7:05 AM
"Hilariously, this lady had to ask me why I said (via email) that mindfulness research, which is part of the DBT -- Dialectical Behavior Therapy in her email address -- is largely crap"
If you read on the founding of DBT-it was basically a woman who had a "spiritual" experience in a Catholic church. It made me a little iffy, but I personally don't know much about it, since I'm not borderline.
I also find it fascinating that her diagnosis of you is borderline-which is exactly the type of patients DBT was established for. So....she is diagnosing you on an illness she is familiar with because she is familiar with it. I notice alot of doctors tend to do that---diagnose you with their speciality because that is what they are most familiar with not because it's what you actually have.
My own therapist told me psychiatrists are an even bigger nightmare than therapists. Basically many psychiatrists are starting to hold the theory that all mental illness is only organic disease that can ONLY be treated with medication. Kinda like when you have an infection you need an antibacterial.
The problem is the brain chemistry isn't like killing bacteria. You can't just give people a pill because we STILL don't know how they work (all anti-psychotics and anti-depressants).
I know I was prescribed anti-depressants when what I needed was anti-psychotics. (Anti-depressants can make me go super cookoo).
Ppen at November 10, 2013 8:20 AM
Wow. What a nutter.
I am sure the people at Spider Labs would be happy to help you track this kook down. It's amazingly easy. Apparently.
Just finished reading this piece about their work and was blown away. A real eye-opener.
http://pandodaily.com/2013/10/26/i-challenged-hackers-to-investigate-me-and-what-they-found-out-is-chilling/
Looking forward to your new book!
Rosemary at November 10, 2013 8:29 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4044370">comment from PpenI think the main problem, as far as she's concerned, is that I make a poor choice of person to try to victimize.
And thanks, PPen -- your info on DBT is illuminating.
Borderlines have wild emotional swings. I don't. I just don't let people get away with crap. I'm not mean to Gregg, I don't snap at him, and I can be in a heated discussion with some and suggest we pull back, dial down the heat. This is "emotional regulation" and I'm pretty good at it!
Amy Alkon at November 10, 2013 9:24 AM
"...in the professional world, Ph.D.'s only respect others Ph.D.'s, and that's just the way it is!"
So what?
News: Your plumber and auto mechanic make more money than you do. There is such a thing as education to no purpose, especially when advanced degrees come with no "pedigree" of demonstrably objective measurement, or FIELD EXPERIENCE. That's why a PhD in Education is nowhere near as respected as one in Physics - a lack of academic rigor.
Want a clue about academic rigor? See how many references in the dissertation cite other opinions, as opposed to those objective measurements.
A welder can point to an xray and the application of his weld to a finished structure. Those of you in the "softer" fields always have an excuse: the patient. This is why bartenders have solved more problems than PhD therapists.
Radwaste at November 10, 2013 11:17 AM
Hey, I would take a hot busboy over a rich guy any day.
Sara at November 10, 2013 1:13 PM
Krueger's article demonstrates my point exactly. You don't have the training to be able to critically analyze research. If you saw data, you probably wouldn't know what you were looking at, or how to interpret it.
Sara at November 10, 2013 1:24 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4044616">comment from SaraSneaky sarah the sick therapist (who recently posted here under another identity as well) writes:
"Krueger's article demonstrates my point exactly."
Oh, were you interested in publication bias before I posted about it? Did you even know what it is?
Sneaky sarah further writes:
"You don't have the training to be able to critically analyze research. If you saw data, you probably wouldn't know what you were looking at, or how to interpret it."
How do you know what training I do and don't have? Do you really think you have to pay $100K for a Ph.D. to be trained in this stuff? Idiot.
You apparently are not capable even of assessing a basis of your own work. You were surprised when I wrote you that research on "mindfulness" medication has some of the shittiest methodology out there. (Worse, in fact than that on nutrition and diet.)
What we know about you:
•You've posted here pretending to be two different people and emailed me pretending to be two different people.
•You claim to be a therapist and have twice diagnosed me by email as a "borderline," though I show no symptoms of being one. Of course, diagnosis by email is unprofessional, and attacking people this way because you can't shove them around in a debate shows you to be someone who doesn't have the wisdom or composure to be a therapist.
•You subscribe to a common irrationality -- a version of the appeal to authority -- that somebody with a degree or position knows more because of it.
•You won't reveal your identity -- where you work, etc. -- yet claim to be some big-ass, important doctor.
•You're repeatedly emailing me petty emails and posting here under two identities -- all the while telling me how superior you are to me.
Oh, and get this -- in your other identity as elprup1234, you told me you sent an email I sent you in reply to one of your sick email attacks on me (simply because you disagree with me and I noticed that you were sneaky) to a 500-person list-serve.
You're a sick fuck. Don't come back here until you're prepared to reveal where you work. I've found a pediatrician with your name (as you use in the second email to me) in LA who's also studied psychiatry, but I want to be careful about ever pointing the finger at the wrong person.
I suspect, however, from how unhinged you clearly are, that you're a social worker seeing poor people. Pity for whomever you see unless you're just making low-foam coffees for them, in which case we hope your feminist side won't decide to poison the pretty ones.
Sneaky unethical bitch like you, pretending to be two people, making grandiose claims in email…no telling what you're capable of.
Anybody who wants to help me track her down, let me know. A little overwhelmed right now.
Amy Alkon at November 10, 2013 1:40 PM
Cheering you on Amy! The Psychology today article was great.
KLC at November 12, 2013 5:14 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/archives/2013/11/are-you-submiss.html#comment-4048944">comment from KLCThank you so much, KLC!
Amy Alkon at November 12, 2013 9:48 PM
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