I'm not quite following how you determined that women's rights groups don't care about prison rape, but you're talking about apples and oranges. The dynamics, circumstances, and motivations are completely different in rape inside vs outside prison. Prison rape is part of the much larger issue of prisoners' rights, which also includes prison violence, gang intimidation, inmate abuse, guards turning a blind eye, inhumane conditions etc. The solution likely entails prison reform: retraining prison employees, restructuring organizational systems or even the physical structure of prisons themselves, more security cameras, creating a regulatory oversight organization, etc. As opposed to, say, educating the inmates about date rape and putting up posters about watching your drink.

You can't run a prison without issues, and this is one of them.

Prison reform won't work. The justice system itself needs a total overhaul. Locking them up clearly doesn't work, as demonstrated by repeat offenders.

If simply locking them away from the rest of the population worked, there would be no such thing as Three Strikes Legislation.

That is not to say that rapists and murderers should mix with the rest of the population, (as they are clearly ill and need help) but throwing a person behind bars for say, theft, is obviously not working.

Everyone is aware of the penalties for stealing a car, no question. If prison was enough of a deterrent, car alarms and home security systems would be obsolete.

How'd women's rights advocates get dragged into this? You can care about an issue and not make it your cause. You can feel something is wrong and not make it your own fight, or you'd be fighting all day every day. You can hope, say, to eradicate all cancers but put your energy toward raising money for the one your child has. It doesn't mean you're not for equality of treatment.

And ditto what Shannon said.

But it is an interesting tidbit of information. Yes, the circumstances are different, but if the results are the same, does it matter in the end? (No pun intended.)

They are men, men are disposable in our society. Few people give a shit. Fewer still see the connection between laws that make it easy to send a man to prison for sexual crimes with little proof and the fact that they are sentencing the man to be raped and sexually assaulted in prison.

How'd women's rights advocates get dragged into this?

By being hypocrites who ignore reality when it doesnt suit their preconceived notions of reality.

If you listen when feminists describe why there is no need, for example, for a men's rights movement led by non-feminist men, you will hear the feminists say that they care about issue X, Y, and Z too.

So yes, feminists care deeply about prison rape.

But if you watch what feminists actually lobby for in Congress, or on the pages of their websites, you'll see what issues the feminists actually care about.

And so no, feminists don't give a shit about prison rape, or just about any other men's issue, their bullshit rhetoric aside.

At one point though, I might have felt as shannon did that it's sort of apples and oranges.

But when I consider how expansive the definitions of rape are, that include Baby It's Cold Outside as a rape song, or lobby to disempower women by claiming an ounce of alcohol is enough to make women unable to make decisions or take responsibility for their behaviors, then I do have to wonder, hey, what aren't feminists concerned with prison rape?

Out of curiosity - do these numbers include rape statistics from women's prisons too?

I love it Shannon. When it comes to not looking good on women issues or is not political expedient it is amazing what gets redefined or said it completely different.

Sorry you do not get to call apples and oranges difference or say it is not the same. Not when somebody is "FORCED" or COERCED to have sex. I thought it was rape when there was NO consent. So maybe NO does not mean NO when a man says it.

The whole trying to make it different is a horrible cop out. That pisses me off just as much it is not "rape, rape" by Whoopi Goldberg to brush aside Polanski rape of a minor.

Related, but not related to this topic (with the addendum that I understand Amy has brought this up in the past), I'm just a little fed of men being criminalized for being men. If we so much as watch children playing, maybe because it's a pleasure to see the young and carefree kiddies with their boundless energy having fun, it's really just because we're molesters.

When did it start being a crime to be male?

What about the guys in prison who sag their pants to let other guys know that they are willing? Is that rape, too, or is is not?

I never said that prison rape wasn't rape--rape is rape. But the dynamics, circumstances, and preventative measures for prison rape are different than those for rapes outside prison. Notice I didn't say "less serious" or "less important", just different.* Just like breast cancer and lung cancer are both cancer, but their causes, risk factors, and treatments are totally different. And marching against lung cancer doesn't mean you don't care about breast cancer victims, or vice versa.

And prison rape isn't just a men's issue--women got to jail too, and rape/sexual assault is a problem there is as well. It's just a different kind of problem requiring a different kind of solution than rape occurring outside of prison.

(*If anything, I think prison rape is more terrible than rape outside of prison for a multitude of reasons: the acts are more likely to be violent; there's little to no grey area with consent as there could be in, say, a date rape scenario; victims are more likely to be forced against their sexual orientation; it's almost impossible to take preventative measures; and victims do not have the support system, legal recourse, or even public sympathy accorded to rape victims outside of jail. All of the above are reasons why prison rape is a separate issue that can't just be indiscriminately equated with rape out of prison).

"When did it start being a crime to be male?"

About the same time as feminism became popular. Coincidentally, around the same time as it became a crime to be white.

wtf: About the same time as feminism became popular. Coincidentally, around the same time as it became a crime to be white.

If I have ever made anyone feel like it was a crime to be heterosexual, I apologize for that. It certainly shouldn't be.

I don't know if womens rights advocates say anything about prison rape, especially the rape of women in women's prisons by other women. Hell, they probably won't even say anything about rape of women by other women outside prisons. OR the rape of men by women outside prison. Because feminism and womens rights is not about womens rights, but about bullying men and extorting them and treating them like a subclass which has no rights. Basically, it is sharia in which the men take the place of the women. IF womens rights advocates truly cared about equality, then men would also be able to file cases against women with no proof, women would get arrested, sentenced based purely on his word. Either that, or men would not get arrested based on accusations made with no proof. And anyone who filed a false case would be sent to prison for quite a long time.

"IF womens rights advocates truly cared about equality,"

While some women's rights activists truly think they are about equality, Redra, they've been fooled just as much as John Q. Public.

Women's rights activists are, by definition, about subjugating men the way men did to women for thousands of years. If you're about equality, you don't define which gender you advocate for. Kinda like the Black Panthers, or the Tigers, only with women.

Feminism isn't about rights and equality. It's about revenge.

Wow, Patrick's making some comments in this thread that make good sense. Miracles do happen! ;-)

And, Redrajesh and wtf are 100% correct. At this point, feminism has basically become just another division of the Victicrat Industry.

Saying Women's Rights Advocates are somehow all for prison rape, or at least not against it, is ridiculous.

In my experience, activists tend to be for clumps of things, and feminism and prison reform both tend to be lefty issues. Prison reform is wrapped up in racial equality issues, too. People tend to choose one cause to be active about, because not everyone can campaign for everything... there is simply not enough time and people tend to focus.

But I would never say prison reformers are against women's rights because they focus on prison reform!

As for feminists wanting men's rights groups to be feminist, obviously. I mean, tea parties don't want tax reformers to be socialist, right? That doesn't mean they don't want their policies to benefit everyone.

Well, tea parties don't claim to be for equality of everyone, they just want a reduction in taxes and reduction in spending for everyone, but feminists claim to be about equality..but still push for differential treatment of men and women....which is plain hypocrisy

You can't have equality without equal treatment under the law. Today we have lawfare, with special interests using the legislature and the courts to advance their interests at the expense of others. I refuse to participate in the hypocrisy.

So when men rape men it's the fault of women? Advocates for Women's rights are responsible for what men do to other men? I'm not seeing the logic.

If I understand the arguments here:

1) Feminists are absolutely not in favor of prison rape
2) It's just not their major focus
3) And that's okay

Well whose focus might it be to reduce prison rape of male prisoners?

How about men's rights activists?

Would that seem to make sense? MRAs whoever they might be, should probably be taking point on the reduction of male prison rape.

So what's one thing that feminists definitely are against?

MRAs.

In fact, what we hear from many feminists, is that men's rights activists are misogynistic, regressive, do nothing, hateful and made up this word called misandry, and that in fact, feminism cares more for men than MRAs.

I mean, that is LITERALLY what feminists write and say:

http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/solution-mra-problems-more-feminism/

The Solution to MRA Problems? More Feminism
MARCH 8, 2011 BY AMANDA MARCOTTE

So where are we left with feminism?

1) Feminists are absolutely not in favor of prison rape
2) It's just not their major focus
3) And that's okay

4) And yet we will continue to claim feminism cares more and does more for men than mras do and do everything we can to make sure every newly arising MRA group is suffocated in its crib.

Except the article says inmates, not male inmates, and the statistics are comparing sexual assault to rape.

The same year they say there are 216000 sexual assaults in prison, the sexual assault statistic for women is over 243000. Rape is a more specific term. The prison statistic for rape is 68000.