I hope that means she has a desk job.

Reality won't adjust its difficulty just because someone isn't capable enough to meet it head on. Hopefully she doesn't get someone (or herself) killed.

Giving her a desk job would be discriminatory. It wouldn't give her the same chances for advancement. It's like denying someone sea duty in the navy. No matter how good an administrator you are, you don't make Admiral if you haven't been to sea.

I'm willing to let her graduate on a bum foot. But after flunking five times, I have to look sideways at that medical excuse.

Sounds like she's either related to or sleeping with someone with power.

Depending on the underlying cause of your motion sickness you may be able to get past it, or not

Same with this woman not making the time.

But, as the article said, those who do not make the time are not allowed to graduate, so why was she allowed to graduate? Seems to me it was discriminatory to allow her to graduate.

Had they put the offical graduation on hold pending the re run due to medical issues that would be one thing, but granting a waiver seems far more discriminatory than holding her to the stanndards

Medical excuse or not, 12 minutes is a completely reasonable time for a mile and a half run. I wouldn't want her to be a firefighter in my district

Nikki G, I was going to say the same thing! 12 minutes for a mile and half is reasonably fast, but it's nothing crazy.

It's a clean lose-lose situation:

1) Don't accept her. She sues, wins, taxpayers pay the award.

2) Accept her. She can't do the job, someone dies, survivors sue, taxpayers pay the award.

The only difference is whether someone dies, and who gets the money in the end.

Don't accept her. She sues, wins, taxpayers pay the award.

Why do you think she'll win a lawsuit?

There is an affirmative defense: everyone who wants this job must be able to travel 1.5 miles in a 12 minute window. Period. Every. Single. One.

She's had 5, now 6 opportunities to make that. I couldn't do that now, today. But give me a month, and I'll be able to do it. If her foot hasn't healed in this amount of time then it isn't going to improve, and she really should seek another line of employment.

If anything, every one who didn't graduate because they couldn't do the run should sue to get that graduation certificate, as well as the additional opportunities for the make up exam. Equal protection under the law and all that.

IRA Darth Aggie,

I certainly agree that is how it should work in a world that had not taken complete leave of its senses. But that defense fails in the face of "disparate impact." Do the standards have a disparate impact on speshul groups? Is she speshul? Sorry, perfectly capable and deserving white guy. Speshul snoflake looks good on paper.

The Army has for years loudly shouted with a straight face that females and males don't have different standards for pt - when a glance at "apft standards" details not only that the standards are different, but just how unbelievably different they are - a 40 year old mans minimum passing score is almost an 18 years old females maximum. This is equality, you see. And if you are in the Army and want to change careers, say something about it. You will shortly be changing careers. Its going to get worse - with women on the verge of entering combat military occupational specialties, the onus has already been stated to be on the branch, be it infantry, armor, scouts, rangers, special forces, what have you. If there is a "disparate impact" and "not enough" females can meet the standard, the branch has to show that the standard is really necessary. If they can't, it must be lowered. Did I say lowered? Sorry. I slipped out of Newspeak. I meant "adjusted."
We have always been at war with Eastasia.

This reminds me of a series of scenes in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld fantasy series where a vampire repeatedly complains to the City Watch that his jobs weren't working out because everyone was discriminating against him. The desk sergeant keeps explaining that jobs as a pencil and wooden fencing worker, a sunglasses tester, a garlic stacker, and a holy water bottler might not be the best for him.

12 minutes for a mile and a half?

I could walk it in... Hrm. Let's do some math and let's check.

"Fast walk" - 3 miles/hour. So for a mile and a half at a fast walk, you'd need 30 minutes. Ok, not walking, then.

Ok, slight jog, then. about 7 miles per hour.

Or fast walking, alternating with running. When I was in HS, and in shape, I could easily run a 5 minute mile around the track (and I wasn't a distance runner.)

That seems... overly generous.

So, she gets to call herself a firefighter, but has yet to actually fight a fire; the union intervenes to prevent her from being fired when she fails to meet the qualification for the job; she always has an excuse for failure (foot injury, upper respiratory infection).

Given the way society's going these days, she's going to be the next Fire Chief. Then it's on to the White House.

Conan:
Well, *now* she gets to retire with disability!

I knew somebody who had been a volunteer firefighter. Big guy. Based on his build at his desk job when I knew him, I can't imagine he would have had any problems with the physical requirements.

I don't know any details, but something happened during a rescue at one point - I *think* he was trapped in a building by falling debris based on how he talked about it, but I don't know for sure. He suffered PTSD from it. I learned this when I asked after him after a prolonged period of being out sick. It eventually got the better of him. He committed suicide a couple years later.

If that can happen to somebody fit, what the hell will happen to somebody NOT fit... and that person's shift team?

Thats sure an interesting question Shannon, and a perspective I had never considered. But the individuals I have encountered who most adamantly defend their "right" to jobs they have no business whatsoever doing have almost uniformly been so self absorbed I doubt it would phase them. I know there are things I have no business doing - a surgeon. A paramedic. A suicide hotline operator. Just not my bag. I could train for those jobs, maybe even achieve some degree of competence. But I would never be doing more than playing a part, and sooner or later, someone else would pay for it. I think folks like this lady (and those that comprise DACOWITS or more accurately"LACOWITS")don't have the capacity for that kind of introspection. They have an agenda, and "fair," "right," "decency" - these aren't principles to live by. They are strategies to be exploited.

WolfMan,

They may be Narcissists, but I think in a profession such as firefighting, there's enough risk that they could end up seriously injured - either physically or emotionally.

Dear Wendy Tapia: apply at the Transportation Security Administration. You probably won't run out of breath shuffling between patdowns of ten-year-old girls.

The problem with the one simple standard rule, is it is seldom enforced across the board, and it must have a real basis in job performance.

The 12 minute mile and a half standard may be a very reasonable one but what job skill does it relate to? I would think a dead lift of another human being carrying them down a ladder would be more applicable.

Also does "everyone" in the fire department have to pass the running test annually, or is the fire department a union shop, and does that test go away, after you pass it once, because the 38 year old fire fighters a little past their prime cant do it any more?

If the department has exempted anyone else for any reason, they have just admitted that this running test doesn't measure anything vital that "everyone" must be able to do, to stay on the force.

It is a can of worms.

Comrades,

Hand Over Your Lives To The Government & Never Worry Again!

Shannon,

I see what you are saying and I agree. I hope it didn't sound like I was attacking you. Its just frustrating because it never seems to happen that way - THEY get killed or injured. The way I've seen it happen is this...their partner/teammate, a citizen or someone who just happened to be working around them gets killed or injured. Right away the department spin machine cranks up and the meme gets spun about how heroically they performed and tried to prevent the unavoidable death/injury. This works best when its a death, no one is there to contest the official version. But as we all know, you can bullshit the fans, but you can't bullshit the players. Anyway, the official version gets spun and what are the players gonna do about it? Accept it and carry on with the job. The next step, this species being opportunistic to the core is (in the months following the incident) gross and blatant misbehavior. Maybe some drunk driving, domestic calls, not showing up for work, etc. etc. No action will be taken, to the outrage of all. There will be tales floated about how heroically they have faced the demons left by the unfortunate incident, how their courage in facing the survivors guilt should be an inspiration to all of us and how it takes real courage to ask for help and blah, blah blah. Then they will be promoted as an example of one policeman/fireman/ soldier who overcame the odds and triumphed. Its frustrating because, as JR Ewing once said, once you abandon integrity, the rest is easy.
Am I ranting? Sorry. End of the day, what am I gonna do about it? Get up tomorrow and go back to work.

I work at a fire district (I'm the accountant). THIS is absolutely how we run the show:

"Normally, probationary firefighters who fail the running test at the end of academy training don't graduate -- period. They flunk out but can join the next academy class, start over and get another chance to pass the course."

Not only is someone who can't pass the physical requirements a danger to the society he or she is supposed to protect, it's also a very real, and more likely, danger to the coworkers.

We have three women in our academy this time around, and that's a pretty high number. There just aren't that many women who are interested in it compared to men. It's not discrimination, it's a fact.

"The 12 minute mile and a half standard may be a very reasonable one but what job skill does it relate to?"

It's a fair cardiopulmonary stress test. You'd be surprised how much stress a Scott Air-Pak puts on you. Moving quickly through a smoke-filled structure, even before trying to drag anyone out, is like running down the street.

Smart people run or cycle habitually to keep in shape. Academies have to start somewhere.

I can easily run a mile and a half in under 12 minutes, and I'm 48! Lots of women I know could do it. And she had six months in which to train to pass that test after she failed it the first time. WTF?

@Isab -- as to what job skill it applies to: cardiovascular fitness could be pretty important if the firefighter needs to run up a lot of stairs. It's not just one and two story buildings that catch fire! I wouldn't want a firefighter who has to trudge up the stairs or stop half-way for breath.

The old standard in the USAF was something like 12.5 min for 1.5 mi under thirty and 14 minutes over thirty.

And a detail that was skipped was what were her times? Was it 12:14 or 14:14? If she's not in the ballpark, fuck it and dump her. If it is a slight overage then it becomes a matter of tolerance. I look at it that six months of failures is about the edge of tolerance, but how far out is she?

Way back when my USAF career was ended when one person who measured my girth insisted that sucking my gut in was the "wrong" way for me to be measured.

There is an affirmative defense: everyone who wants this job must be able to travel 1.5 miles in a 12 minute window. Period. Every. Single. One.

Absolutely.

I wonder -- in the ironical sense -- whether the PT upper body strength standards are the same for women as men.

In the decades since fire departments began getting rid of strength tests to let women in, the death rate in house fires has gone way up, because today's fire fighter can't carry out an average unconscious adult.

That's too high a price to pay for that last, absurd half-a-percent of gender equality. Bring the tests back and let careers fall where they may.

@Isab -- as to what job skill it applies to: cardiovascular fitness could be pretty important if the firefighter needs to run up a lot of stairs. It's not just one and two story buildings that catch fire! I wouldn't want a firefighter who has to trudge up the stairs or stop half-way for breath.

Posted by: Gail at November 12, 2013 6:34 PM

I don't disagree. Just want additional information. Like, how often are the regular firefighters required to pass this test, and what happens, when and if they don't pass it anymore?

And: How relevant is the running test to the job? The best runner in my mostly male army unit was an 18 year old woman, who could pretty easily run two six minute miles, however, she weighed 86 pounds, and if she was handicapped by full firefighter gear, most of the men in the unit, carrying that same gear would beat her handily, because they had the strength necessary to run under that kind of load.
She didn't, so she would have made a poor firefighter. Just sayin.

Too many people get into linear thinking mode where they assume that if a test is sufficient to test for one part of the physical requirements to be a firefighter, that the same test, is the best test, or the only test that is needed.

I just want to know what else is required, how often they test, and what they do with the people who fail any component of the requirements, either mental or physical.

Physical skills degrade. So does education. Just because someone can do something on one day under easy conditions, doesn't mean they can do the same thing two years later wearing a respirator and carrying a seventy pounds of gear, even if they passed the run at the academy.

@Isab -- and I totally agree with you that cardiovascular fitness isn't the only important physical requirement for a firefighter. I hope the running test isn't the only one they have.

If I were creating a test, it would involve running up stairs in full gear, and they'd be periodically re-tested.

Wolfman,

I know you agreed with me on the whole. I just don't think one goes into firefighting to exploit in that manner. It's awfully risky. More likely a factory job.