Um you failed to read the law. Your transaction was not affected. You did not buy from a store. You personally went to a breeder this is not part of the regulation. If you bought Aida at the local pet shop then yes. However if you're gonna tell me you found a pure breed Chinese crested at the local pet shop I'd call bullshit. This law would only affect the impulse buying idiots that go to pet shops for dogs or cats. Those animals tend to come from mills. In your case I'd say you had little choice but to go to a breeder as Chinese cresteds are rare. Most of the dogs and cats in rescue (or worse) were idiot impulse buys from pet shops. Or my personal favorite "He got to big". Then ensues a 10 minute fight between my reptile brain and my fore brain to beat 7 shades of stupid out of the person in front of me. These are not people that got a mutt puppy that had unbenounced to them some t-rex parentage. These are idiots that get Great Pyrenees, Mastiffs and Saints. This law would reduce the stupid buys which lead to bad dumps and lots of misery. I have a papered pure breed saint and a pure breed Great Pyre both from rescue. The saint was clearly dumped because she got to big. The other was obsolete farm equipment and simply thrown out.

"They are amazing people who care deeply about these puppies and not just people who sold us a dog." I'd bet $100 that they will not sell one of their dogs to a pet shop. Also if you get a chance ask them what they think of that law.

You know I'm not a fan of regulators and regulation but this is hardly the "Big Gulp" that this idiot Turley is claiming. You drink to many big gulp and you get diabetes, your feet get chopped off. You impulse buy a dog that you dump A) the dog is screwed B) Anyone that the dog harms on it's way to death row is screwed C) If it's one of a set number of breeds the good owners of said breeds are screwed, or more screwed.

Before you ding me for calling him an idiot, just because he has a blog and is viewed as an expert just remember Mikey Bloomberg is viewed as an expert on guns by his followers and he admits knowing nothing about them.

I read this from his blog. "I have had both adopted and bred dogs and loved them all." Given the number of pure bred dogs in rescue I feel even more comfortable saying ignorant idiot. Again he WENT to a breeder not a pet store. This law has ZERO affect on breeders not supplying pet stores.

Wouldn't that be a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Vlad opines:
Um you failed to read the law. Your transaction was not affected.

Ok, so what's the effective difference between a pet shop obtaining a Chinese crested for Amy, and Amy doing it herself? other than the mark up the pet shop would have charged for doing a service?

Yeah, that's right, none. So can we agree that it is a stupid law and quite possibly one that falls afoul of the Constitution?

Oh, you want to prevent people from being stupid or unthinking? that's not going to happen, because the only thing the law will prevent is from them doing the impulse buy. It won't prevent them from going to a breeder, will it?

Maybe you should argue for a 7 day waiting period?

"Maybe you should argue for a 7 day waiting period?" - I R A Darth Aggie

Hey! That's a great idea! I'll open a combination gun/pet store!

"Okay, the waiting period is over. Here's your puppy."

"Uh, I was trying to get a gun."

Having never owned a dog, I am curious, why did your breeder demand Aida be spayed and is that common?

It seems like a way to protect the breeder's "IP" in the dog's genetics, more than anyway to protect Aida.

(That's a terrific picture of her, but it "triggers" my PTSD. Not only are there women clearly above my level, but apparently dogs as well.)

The two best dogs I ever got were impulse buys at a pet store, they were on sale. The pug because he was born with only one ball and a mini Australian Shepard mix because he was 7 months.

They both died of genetic issues and cost a lot of money to care for,

The finest dog I ever had came from the street. The one with the most emotional issues from the pound.

"Okay, the waiting period is over. Here's your puppy."

And what if you get them mixed up? "Hold it right there, burgular, or I'll shoot you with my Cocker spaniel!"

Not sure how it works down south, but reputable breeders in Canada (with the same sort of requirements as where Aida came from) would never sell to a pet store. Pet store puppies are from commercial breeding facilities. Some of those facilities meet the minimum requirements of water, food and shelter, but even then I'd personally call them puppy-mills. Morkies, Puggles, Pom-tzus, Cockapoos are not breeds -- they are mutts, just like the millions that are euthanized in shelters every year.

I'm not one for over-regulation either, but I also don't think buying a puppy is the same as buying a hammer. But a couple years volunteering daily at an animal shelter can change your perspective.

"It won't prevent them from going to a breeder, will it?" Nope wasn't meant to either. Otherwise the law would have been written differently.

"Ok, so what's the effective difference between a pet shop obtaining a Chinese crested for Amy, and Amy doing it herself?" Well lets start with Amy has a very good reason to take her time and do her research. The pet store does not. Good breeders do their homework as well. They wanted to meet Amy and make sure it was a good fit. These are generally the signs of a good breeder. Anyone willing to send a puppy sight unseen to a pet store is shady. Also nothing stopping the mark up for the shelter dogs/cats either.

The fact that he refers to it as an anti pure bred law adds to the fact that he's either ignorant or a moron.

"So can we agree that it is a stupid law and quite possibly one that falls afoul of the Constitution?" No and maybe. Constitutionality hasn't meant shit in Chicago for along time over far more important stuff than this.

"Maybe you should argue for a 7 day waiting period?" What the difference between my going to an 03 FFL and getting a Class 3 Thompson shipped to my house? Pet ownership is not a protected constitutional right.

Ok, so what's the effective difference between a pet shop obtaining a Chinese crested for Amy, and Amy doing it herself? other than the mark up the pet shop would have charged for doing a service?

Reputable breeders (I know a few) would never allow their dogs to be sold through pet stores. There's no way they'd allow their dogs to be sold at a place that lets anyone with a pulse and a credit card walk out with a dog. It's sort of a litmus test: If the breeder sells to pet stores, they are not reputable. See Amy's description of her breeder.

This law won't prevent people like Amy from getting dogs like Aida from responsible breeders.

And you're probably right that it also won't prevent people from buying puppies from back-yard breeders on Craigslist, but it will at least get rid of the puppy-in-the-window market. You jokingly mention a "waiting period," but when you buy a dog online, there is at least a waiting period -- you have to wait until the breed you want is available in your area, play phone tag with the breeder, schedule a time with the breeder, possibly drive a few hours to the nearest breeder, etc.

My city has a similar ordinance, and it actually had a really good side effect -- pet stores started making more of an effort to let rescues and shelters adopt dogs out of their facilities, to the benefit of all parties:

- Cute puppies keep shoppers in the store longer (so they can buy stuff).
-The store makes money. People adopt a dog, first thing they're going to do is buy a ton of treats, leashes, a bed, etc.
-The homeless pets get exposure. But people aren't able to walk out with a pet after 10 minutes (they have to go through the shelter's application process, which usually takes a few hours). Oh, and pets don't go home without being spayed/neutered.

tl;dr The sky is not falling.

But a couple years volunteering daily at an animal shelter can change your perspective.

It sure does! You get to see first-hand where the pet store dogs end up. I had to stop volunteering at the "intake" desk because of all the people who would come in saying:

"I got this dog at the pet store, and it turns out she's basically a canine Habsburg! Vet says deformed (probably because she was inbred, would you believe it?) with tons of health problems that I can't really afford, and she's not as cute as she was when she was a puppy ... so...here you go!"

"But a couple years volunteering daily at an animal shelter can change your perspective." Fostering for a rescue will have a similar effect.

"First, it effectively treats all commercial pet operations as the same as mills, which is clearly not the case." Epic scale ignorance EPIC. A commercial breeding facility is by definition about mass production. Hence the word commercial. Exactly what mills of any kind are.

While he may have a legit argument based on constitutionality for his objections he really doesn't explain them. He sites and copies the law he opposes but does not even site where is grounds for opposition come from. Either he's a shitty lawyer or he knows that his argument won't pass legal muster. There is the obvious explanation that these are just one mans musings. It's a blog not a law course.

Having never owned a dog, I am curious, why did your breeder demand Aida be spayed and is that common?

This could be from cynical motives, but generally breeders distinguish between dogs intended for breeding and showing and dogs as pets. That is, the breeders may sell to other breeders or dog show people but would then have a separate level of vetting for dogs that won't be spayed.

Thanks Astra. I had friends a long time ago who "often" bought from high end breeders and I know that while I never saw them breed their dogs, they would never have spayed their animals. But, they did train their dogs and show their dogs and so I am sure everyone considered them dog show people.

Really all this law does is show that Chicago thinks they are the center of the universe, again.

It's just like the dumb anti-gun laws that they have. Essentially they aren't stopping puppy mills. They are just limiting the sales and tax revenue within the city limits.

"Ok, so what's the effective difference between a pet shop obtaining a Chinese crested for Amy, and Amy doing it herself?"

Vetting.

Private breeders of purebred dogs usually vet, and are vetted by, potential owners. Buyers want a dog with good pedigree to screen out health defects, sellers usually want to be sure that dogs that are not show quality will not be reproduced and will have a good opportunity for a great life.

In contrast, pet stores just check to be sure your cash is not counterfeit and your credit card clears. And when the cute wears off, too often the dog or cat lives a private hell or becomes a public nuisance disposed of at taxpayer expense.

I applaud the city for saying, "you can't sell this here."

Sure it's possible for a private puppy mill to start selling directly, but I doubt they'd get the foot traffic needed to get the volume of sales to make it worthwhile. I hope every major city follows suit and puts the puppy mills of Pennsylvania out of business.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppy_mill

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at March 7, 2014 10:20 AM

I screwed up the quote attribution.

Darth's comment was:

"Ok, so what's the effective difference between a pet shop obtaining a Chinese crested for Amy, and Amy doing it herself?"

...and the rest was mine.

Sure it's possible for a private puppy mill to start selling directly, but I doubt they'd get the foot traffic needed to get the volume of sales to make it worthwhile. I hope every major city follows suit and puts the puppy mills of Pennsylvania out of business. -- Michelle at March 7, 2014 7:37 PM

Let's say that every U.S. Cities with Population over 100,000 passes this law. So every single pet store will close down because they can't make a profit in the the city limit. If you look at Columbus, OH they have a 730K population. The metropolitan area has about 1.5M people if not more. Take a guess where the stores will relocate to?

This is the the same problem with drugs, guns, cars or just about anything else. Let's put out a law that you can't drive within the city limits unless is a hybrid or a vehicle over 30MPG. What about the truckers delivering to a grocery store?

How about pet food deliveries to the grocery store?

The level of stupidity is indescribable.

"Private breeders of purebred dogs usually vet, and are vetted by, potential owners."

The first part? Usually? Really? I'm not sure this is true "most" of the time.

Amy shares the story of Aida's stunningly selective breeders every single time the subject of dogs comes up, but I don't think they are typical breeders. I don't understand why the example is relevant in a generalized debate about them.

I don't favor most laws that control dog breeding on behalf of the dogs' welfare because, well, dogs are animals--IMO not so different from the ones we eat, wear, and ride. The special status we give to dogs and cats isn't (IMO) rationally justified.

I'm also confused by people-i.e., some of you--who think laws banning foie gras are overreach ("Ducks don't deserve protection from suffering because they're ducks"), but who think it is laudable to treat the adoption of a dog like the adoption of a human child (with the dog's happiness being paramount).

You know how Japanese pet stores vet their clientele?

The prices are astronomical. Way more than most Americans would have to pay going directly to a breeder.

In the case of Chicago, I would not be surprised if this law was not the result of rent seeking behavior by Petco, or other large chain, which already only carriies rescue dogs and cats.

And would probably love to put the stores that dont out of business, or at least out of competition with them.

It is silly but most new laws being passed by cities these days are silly. These mountains of petty regulations are chipping away at people's ability to actually live and work in the cities, which is why, I suspect in my lifetime, Chicago will start to resemble Detroit.

IP, my friends who bred dogs cared for them deeply and raised them well before selling them - though I doubt that included a ten page form. And my friends who bought purebred dogs were all interviewed in person by the breeder, agreed to spay or neuter, agreed to return the dog to a breeder rather than surrender it to a shelter if need be, etc. The details vary, but these business transactions more akin to vetting than solely a cash and carry, no strings business transaction.

Tom Wilson and his wife (now widow) each raised a different breed, lovingly and well. From the stories I hear from friends who buy from other breeders, it seems to me that his level of love and excellence are common among breeders. Perhaps I've seen a skewed sample:

"Tom is responsible for quite a few people’s devotion and love of the Weimaraner. He served the WCA and the Weimaraner for over 50 yrs before his death in July of 2007.

Tom began his love affair with Weimaraners when he was a 19 year old seaman apprentice in the Navy stationed at Quonset Point, RI. [...]

Tom started out in obedience to get [his first Weimaraner] Baron under control and they began to compete [...] He had an awakening when he took Baron to a specialty show and got a serious lesson about the difference between back yard bred and show quality dogs. [...] That was when Tom made a commitment to do whatever it took to reach that level of competence as a breeder. Tom said for the rest of his life that this was a pivotal moment, not just in regard to Weimaraners but in his whole life.

[...]

While Tom was very successful in the show ring, he was a great believer in giving back. He worked tirelessly to place rescue dogs, he never turned away a dog, whether it was from his breeding or not, whether he had room or not or whether he could afford the sometimes very costly veterinary care that the dog needed."

Good intentions (give abandoned animals a home instead of having to put them down) do not equal good law (no, you cannot have a puppy to train, you have to take an adult dog with whatever habits its previous owner instilled) and no, you cannot specify a [non-descript non="purebred" cocker spaniel, only a non-descript non-"purebred" boxer).

To save landfill space, if you want furniture you must get it from our trash collectors. And if they do not have a kitchen chair, you can get a couch or mattress...

1) Vlad was right.

2) You can buy a purebred puppy inside the city limits - from a breeder, from a veterinarian, from any government run agency, or from any animal rescue non profit. You just cannot buy a puppy from a retail store.

See the legislation at page three:

http://docs.chicityclerk.com/press/2014/20140205-pr-companion-animal-ordinance.pdf

The first two pages clearly spell out the rationale for the law, including the roughly 10,000 cats and dogs the city has to kill each year at a cost of about $200,000 each year to taxpayers.

Amy, did the dog eat my last comment, or did I fail to even post it?

And now it reappears.

Thank you!

That's a great picture, she's gorgeous, Amy!

"You know how Japanese pet stores vet their clientele?"

Not at all, really. Anyone with money, be it gangsters or celebrities, will be glad to buy a $2500 chihuahua or a $3500 retriever as a status symbol. It doesn't mean that they necessarily are true dog lovers, and frankly, I doubt the pet stores care much.

There are also waves of 'fashionable' breeds that people will buy here because they're all over TV and 'everybody has one'. In the 80s it was Huskies, then Golden Retrievers, now it's chihuahuas and dachshunds. People who wanted them as status symbols move on to the next one when the dog they have gets old. There used to be a pack of Huskies roaming around Mt. Fuji back then. Flatcoats were a mini-boom that didn't last long as people found out how rambunctious they are, how headstrong they can be, and how high their cancer rate is.

Most Japanese people love their dogs, but as people aren't vetted at all you do have a percentage of dog owners being total jerks who later abandon their animals. If the prices were more normal they could probably cut this type of person out of the loop...they'd have to find another status symbol. I can't buy a new collar for my dog in a local pet shop, big dogs are just so 'last trend'.

The pet store market here is hideous. The pups are put in store windows from about 8 weeks old, far too young to be separated from their mothers, judging by the number of dogs here with severe allergies.

I bought my dog in 15 minutes, no questions asked. I bought a pet store dog from a chain similar to Home Depot where the dogs are one department, because I saw him there month after month when I went in to buy kitty litter. I went in one day and saw him out on the shop floor, in an enclosure. He was too big for the usual cages,at about 42 pounds. I asked why he was still there and they told me that no one would buy him because he was allergic to chicken, wheat and other foods and that necessitated a diet of lamb and rice dog food.

He is a Flatcoated Retriever and they get up to 70 pounds or so, and eat 4 cups or more of food a day. At that pet store a month's worth of lamb and rice food would run $200. I asked how much longer he would be there, and they said another week or so. 'And then?' He'd go back to the breeder or would be put down. So we got a dog that day :-) (and I get his food at Costco, and so don't pay the usual Japanese store prices for dog food). He's a doll, and I'm glad we have him, but the way dogs are marketed here drives me nuts.

Crella, somehow in your post, I missed your point. Did you have one?

The market for dogs doesn't need to be regulated for the benefit of the dogs, anymore than the market for goldfish needs to be regulated for the benefit of the goldfish.

Regulations on businesses are only justified by protecting the consumers.
No one should be abusing the existing animals, but I really resent government substituting their judgement for mine, on what kind of dog I want to buy, and who I want to buy it from.

"(no, you cannot have a puppy to train, you have to take an adult dog with whatever habits its previous owner instilled)" Unmitigated bullshit. Try working at a southern rescue and you'll see that there at 100 of thousands of puppies (including tons of pure breds) that get dumped. Individual temperament varies and mills don't test, too time consuming.

"but I really resent government substituting their judgement for mine, on what kind of dog I want to buy, and who I want to buy it from." When your badly bred, badly trained impulse buy pops a monkey and attacks someone I get shafted twice. 1) If I or my family are attacked 2) If I happen to own the same or similar breed breed. Mills have wrecked the temperament of many breeds by over breeding. This causes Neurological issues due to impeded development. This makes the product dangerous due to poor production techniques. These are justifiable regulated in every industry. Foreign products not meeting manufacturing standards are not sold in the US correct? While I strongly disagree on an emotional level as well it's as much an issue of consumer protection.

When I was younger, I bred pug dogs. I was not a large commercial operation, having one male and two female dogs. They were beloved pets beyond just being breeders. I sold to a broker who then sold them to pet stores. My broker, AKC, and the pet stores all required a stringent list of qualities for a puppy to be bought by my broker...within a certain height, weight, age, vet certifications, shot records, and the list went on, and on.

A reputable breeder breeds healthy well-adjusted puppies with no behavioral issues. The manner in which the dog is sold should not change that. We regularly received letters from satisfied owners...our puppies in silly Christmas costumes and such. We never had a complaint about the health or behavior of any of our puppies.

Having more recently attempted to sell parrots to individuals, it's much better and easier to deal with a broker or a pet store than ignorant customers. In my experience, I haven't always had the resources to offer full refunds to morons, who six months later, were bit by an agitated bird, or accidentally killed their bird with a non-stick cooking pan. Bird buyers tend to think they've done their 'research' beforehand and refuse to listen, and I've come across a few similar stubborn dog owners too.

I earned less money by selling to a broker, but I also lessened my liability and hassle due to negligent and stupid customers. There really wasn't much a profit made, after counting costs of vet bills, dog food, etc. Pet stores can offer long application processes to ensure the right dog to the right owner, and educational experiences for the type of people I simply would not have the patience for.

My point is that not all breeders that sell to pet stores lack empathy for the well-being of their puppies, but more likely figure the cost-to-profit ratio as more beneficial.