In Germany, as well, dog owners bring their dogs into restaurants. And the dogs know exactly what they're supposed to do: get under the table and stay there.

My concerns about implementing this in the United States is that people will abuse the system. Assholes will bring their mangy, flea-bitten, untrained mutts into restaurants which will create havoc and stink up the entire establishment.

Americans seem to have an alacrity in abusing the system that our European counterparts just weren't raised to do.

Same problem I have with universal healthcare. Works fine in Europe. But in the states, some homeless guy will feign an illness just to get a few warm meals and a bed to stay in, while the doctors will take several days to determine there's nothing wrong.

And when he's finally released from the hospital, he'll simply move onto the next hospital.

Patrick beat me to it... I'm sorry, but the idea of dogs running loose in a restaurant grosses me out. Yea, Amy, your dog is well trained, but you're the exception.

Don't like dogs in restaurants? Simple fix: Don't go to restaurants that allow dogs.

Then, restaurants will choose to allow dogs or not based upon consumer desire and not based on the personal preference of a few that's enforced by state violence.

Considering how often handicapped parking is misused, fake service dogs don't surprise me one bit.
But it is also possible with the ever expanding definitions of handicapped and disabled it could be not the dogs but the system allowing anything.

As to socialized medicine in Europe. Certain things are required socialist programs to even semi-work. You must have:
A relatively small population.
Also small sized or homogeneous country.
A relatively homogeneous population.
A generally shared culture and ethic.
Strong work ethic.
Social stigma on those who don't help out.
A general feeling like one group, unity.

The largest European country is less than
1/3 the size of the US, the Average one is 1/20th. So most fit the small size population, and small homogeneous country idea.

Shared culture? We like to think America has one but, what does your average Alaskan have in common with your average Hawaiian? or Wash DC resident? or Hollywood? Hell, I've lived 3 miles from DC for most of my life and don't feel I have much in common with DC culture.

To me the odd thing is Libs don't get the concept of these being even helpful, to Socialistic programs let alone requirements. So while promoting socialistic programs they also promote wrecking the requirements.
Through laughable immigration policies;
being anti-white, currently still the majority in the US;
anti-religious/Christian, currently the majority;
promoting disunity, there's a white male privileged way of looking at things and then an African American way, or a Hispanic way, or a female way, or a gay way. So you could have lived as next door neighbors for 30 yrs, working the same job, going to the same church, but it's two Americas;
and anti-social stigma.
The entire concept of 'diversity is strength' is counter most of socialisms ideas. Europe is starting to realize this, and is back pedaling on many of it's immigration policies.
Sorry went off on a tangent there.

My family lives in Germany, where you can take your dog to some restaurants and stores, but most dogs there go to "hund skool" to learn how to behave in public. They also have very strict and invasive laws about dog ownership (they can only be crated two hours a day, you must play with them X hours a day...), and you have to carry an insurance policy on your dog.

Individual businesses there can decide whether they want to allow dogs (and most grocery stores and butchers do not). I presume we would want private businesses to retain that right here, in which case the "service dog" label still forces their hand and is still a problem.

It is super easy now to get a vest and/or a doctor's letter that allows you to bring a "mental health" service dog into places that don't want them, like nice apartments, hotels, and even cruises.

Joe j: The largest European country is less than
1/3 the size of the US, the Average one is 1/20th.

The largest European country is Russia, which straddles both Europe and Asia.

Amy writes: And the same way a restaurant manager will speak to an unruly or drunk and unruly customer, they will deal with ill-behaved dogs. It should be a restaurant's decision, not the state's.

Oh, so now restaurant owners, in addition to their other requirements, are required to know how to break up fighting dogs, dealing with unpredictable and dangerous animals?

In a word, Amy, "No."

I'd have loved to take my pugs to a restaurant but I was never able to get them to restrain their greed around food. They were wonderful little goobers but if I took them to a restaurant, they'd want to meet all the other people and, if possible, con them out of delicious morsels. And a pug can give a very sad, "I'm so hooongry" face believe me!

The European part of Russia has just over 100 million pop, the US over 300 million. Ergo 1/3. Next largest European is Germany at 80 mill about 1/4 the US.

weeeelll... If you have a family that are all allergic to dogs, like mine, this gives you pause. In the Republic of Boulder, you find dogs everywhere, there have been a couple of times where I had to leave a business because of them.

:shrug: just like anything, there are conscientious people with well behaved dogs, and worthless people who let their dogs run wild and never clean up after them. See: Maxwell falls trail in the foothills near Denver, where it has somehow become permissible to clean up after the mutt... and then hang the bag on a tree near the trail. Last time, I asked a lady if she would hang her own sh*t on a tree by the trail, or if she would allow her neighbor to do so to a tree in her yard... She gave me a dirty look, but took the bag.

Like a lot of things, it'd be nice if people took responsibility for themselves, but whatcha gonna do when they don't? How many dog owners never think to blame themselves when their precious lapdog is killed or maimed in a car accident, because the dog is allowed in their lap? Or more than one dog. Saw a lady with three lapdogs the other day driving her SUV.

At least I've never had one of those people run me off the road, like several women putting on their makeup.

Humans are powerful strange.

Reminds me of all the eateries (and other places?) that are banning kids under 6 - and/or posting signs demanding "indoor voices." All because parents think it's too haaaarrrd to teach little kids not to yell, run, or throw food even when they're at HOME.

(For the record, I don't quite understand the concept of "indoor voice" and "outdoor voice." That is, it's not just HOW kids say things, it's WHAT they say that's so awful and embarrassing - and "indoor voices" are not quiet enough. My method would be to tell them, at an early an age as possible: "You can yell at the playground. When we're off the playground, WHISPER everything until I give you permission to talk a tiny bit louder. (This of course, would only be when the child is not near strangers.) Indoors OR outdoors.")

And, from 2012:

http://thestir.cafemom.com/food_part...30/lzdakIX97os

By Julie Ryan Evans.

First three paragraphs:

"Here we go again with the child-adverse masses out to squelch any sign or sound of youth from their daily lives. Cappy's Pizza in Florida is the latest establishment to jump on the bandwagon by officially banning rowdy kids with a ridiculously patronizing sign right when you walk in the door.

"It reads: 'Parents for the safety and comfort of everyone if you allow your child to run/scream/or misbehave, party will be asked to leave.' Kids arecompletely banned from the back patio. Talk about giving a parent indigestion before she's even ordered. If I saw a sign like that when I walked intoa restaurant -- especially a pizzeria decked out with video games and other stuff that caters to kids -- I'd be walking right back out again.

"It's not that I don't think a restaurant has the right to ask a family to leave if they can't control their kids. I don't want to dine next to unrulyruffians (mine included) either, and I empathize with the business owner who says he's had things broken or stolen by out-of-control kids. On Facebook, owner Scooter Gabel wrote, 'My dining room goes from being a dining roomto a bounce house with the arrival of some families.' However, it's the assumption that MOST kids can't be trusted to behave nor can their parents betrusted to handle the situation appropriately that I can't stomach...."

(snip)

Thankfully, most of the commentators had better sense.

Jennifer said on May 14, 2012 at 1:16 PM:
"Then let your kids be the ones who set the good example! Sheesh, do you get insulted by signs instructing you have to wear a shirt and shoes, too?"

And Bubbles said on May 14, 2012 at 1:32 PM:
"You must live on a completely different planet than I do. I'm a single momto two young, energetic boys and I am always watching them like a hawk when we are out and about, ready to leave abruptly or pull them outside for a 'talking to' should they opt to go rogue and I find that I am the EXCEPTIONin my area, NOT the rule. That sign would actually make me sigh a little bit with relief and think, 'at least I won't have to hear "but theeey'reee doing it so why can't we?" ' "

I suspect what makes Julie mad is that to her, it ISN'T like being expectedto wear a shirt and shoes - she's thinking: "If my standards include tolerating some prolonged screaming but not running, how DARE any restaurant owner suggest those standards aren't strict enough!"

[Lucy] was better behaved than most people's children

I'm sure she was, as is Aida. And many dogs are well trained and behaved.

But not all. Some of them are owned by the same people who have unruly children. I suspect their dogs are just as unruly. It's going to be a wonderful day when someone's dog marks my leg, and their owner tries to tell me it's raining.

Can I roll up a newspaper and swat the owner on the nose and say "bad dog"?

I think the piece brings up a more interesting concern. Right now the ADA forces business owners to accommodate "service dogs" whether they want to or not. People are lying about having service dogs, and it's very hard to call them out.

"Don't like dogs in restaurants? Simple fix: Don't go to restaurants that allow dogs."

Good point. Establishment owners should be able to set their own rules, depending on the clientele they want to attract. But the fake-service-dog people aren't going to accept that.

Kids arecompletely banned from the back patio. Talk about giving a parent indigestion before she's even ordered.

Florida you say? back patio which sounds like it's outside? I have 100 quatloos that says that's a smoking deck. You sure you want your precious little snowflakes to go there?

Let's not be so hasty as to say any restrictions on your children is based on the dislike of children. I've seen people bring their children into bars only to be cheesed off at the bartender telling them their children need to be somewhere not in the bar.

The definition of service dogs is simply ridiculous. A guide dog for a blind person is clearly needed and in most cases it is obvious that a person is blind, or nearly so.

Essentially all of the other dogs are ones that do not need to be present all of the time.

- Diabetic alert dog? How about you keep your blood sugar under control? (And, yes, I have very personal experience with diabetics).

- Allergy alert dogs? Not any more effective than paying attention to what you eat (and going only to restaurants that you can trust).

- Therapy dogs? Get real, every pet is therapy for it's owner.

- Social dogs? Stop making me laugh.

Of course, everyone just has to be a special snowflake nowadays...

So, I am a total fan of service animals. There are some disabilities for which dogs are used and it's not obvious (seizures, for instance). But I've also seen abuse of the system.

I was flying out of Boston about a year ago and this woman had two dogs maybe a little bigger than Lucy with vests on marking them as "service" animals but obviously weren't.

How do I know they were fake? One was yipping nonstop for 20 minutes while the owner tried to cut security and basically talked one TSA guy's ear off. This was while going back and forth from side to side in a hyper how-far-does-this-leash-go manner. The other dog was nearly choking itself trying to get to some smudge on the floor.

Service dogs (real ones) are HIGHLY trained - and if they can't perform up to standard, they don't graduate. If the dog isn't immaculately behaved, it's NOT a service dog.

Fake service dogs have been a problem for a long time. Several years ago while visiting my parents their was an article in the paper about it and the local fair... the most interesting part of it was that while service dogs were required to be registered with the state and the copies of the papers were required to be in the vest when in public, it was illegal for a business (the fair in this case) to require to see the papers before allowing admittances. Only special enforcement officers and police while investing an incident could legally ask to see the papers. Otherwise you were required to take their word for it.

Every where I have lived restaurants have been allowed to permit dogs. Here I believe it is a minimal permitting process....like on your renewal you tick a box and the first time you have to show you have posted rules and insurance (self-insurance ok).

If I'm on a flight seated next to a dog, I won't make it to my destination.

Dog owners seem to think that people with allergies are making this sort of thing up. We're not.

If you want to do a "dogs welcome" or "no dogs welcome" policy and leave it up to the business owner, that's fine with me. (I can't (not "won't", "can't") stay in the same room with a dog for the amount of time it takes to eat a dinner.)

But this idiocy that lets anyone get anywhere with a dog - with the dismissive attitude dog owners have towards people who have allergies - is untenable.

I should add that under current law, "No Dogs Welcome" is illegal. And dogs in restaurants, once rare, is now common due to the narcissistic abuse of the ADA.

"As to socialized medicine in Europe. Certain things are required socialist programs to even semi-work. You must have:
A relatively small population.
Also small sized or homogeneous country.
A relatively homogeneous population.
A generally shared culture and ethic.
Strong work ethic.
Social stigma on those who don't help out.
A general feeling like one group, unity."
Nope just a Strong work ethic and social stigma on those who don't help out. Don't really care if you think your cultural history is better than mine just don't be a GD free loader.

"Can I roll up a newspaper and swat the owner on the nose and say "bad dog"?" Only if I can throat punch any parent when their neutotypical spawn wipes mashed potatoes on my leg. Or throw their food at me.

On the other hand should restaurant employees be forced to step in dog shit while carrying hot plates. If the dog owner is a protected class you can't kick them out. As far as cleanliness, the floors are filthy regardless so touching your shoes then eating is just nasty regardless of the visible dog shit. Dogs mouth is far less likely to carry communicable disease than a child. Nothing to do with hygiene just being the same species.

As a final point on dogs in clothing stores. I have a great Pyrenees and having him around anything cloth and black is not advisable. Should your Yorkie be let in while my giant is not?

The no shoes argument was beat on here. I do wish more women would go around without shirts. But that is another story.

(www.barefooters.org/key-works/BarefootRights.html)

The no pets and service animal argument gets into a detail that should be done on a modification of state (not fed ADA laws) that allows a business to decide if they want pets in the store or not. A petco or pets-r-us or any business should have the decision on their own. The flip side of that should be that they give service animals a license/id card just like having a handicap sticker. The id card would be in the vest or with owner and the similar demand of display when puling onto a handicap spot.

It puts some onus on the handicapped, but is not so belabored it becomes a detriment in most cases.

I would also add in that retired military and LEO K-9s could also get a service animal designation. They are generally well trained and some of the k-9's have PTSD and/or are as welded to their handlers as a disabled person.

i think the biggest issue with having pets all over is the same as with allowing kids all over.We sadly live in a country that thinks that training or punishment – no matter how subtle– is abuse. Every dog in my area (neighbors) are barely under control and my uncle's dog, Slade, is totally out of control. If Slade was in a restaurant he would go to every table and bark until he was kicked out of the restaurant or given food, only to go to the next table and repeat. A larger dog, especially my direct neighbor (probably 90lbs), would without hesitation run into the kitchen, try and bug the cooks, try and grab things off counters and eat anything he could find. My neighbor can barely control him even when he is on a leash.

If people trained their dogs remotely as well as service dogs we could probably have them everywhere, but parents won't even keep their kids seated so health assholes who would not allow a dog in a kitchen for legit reasons, simply ban them all.

Is it right? hard to say. Could it be solved? sure. Will it be? no, not in the US where everything can get you sued... like "discrimination for not allowing my dog in" even after it has made a mess several times in the store/restaurant past.

Leaving it up to the business is fine with me, but I sincerely hope no businesses allow it. I enjoyed dogs very much in Germany because they were all well-trained. You really didn't notice them in the restaurants, but in the US it'd be a recipe for disaster. Too many US owners think their beloved Spot is a joy while it's a terror to everyone else.

Then of course there is the there is the issue of Muslims and dogs.

Islam forbids Muslims to keep dogs, and the punishment for that is that the one who does that loses one or two qiraats from his hasanaat (good deeds) each day. An exception has been made in the case of keeping dogs for hunting, guarding livestock and guarding crops.

Jim P., that's actually the best argument I've ever heard for allowing dogs in restaurants.

I have bad dog allergies, although I do love dogs, and at my job, I often run into service animals. Whether or not the dog sets my allergies off depends on how clean the owner keeps it. For instance, there is one lady who is paraplegic who probably can't wash her dog very well, and that dog always sets my allergies off, even though he is very well behaved in the store, and another customer's dog doesn't bother me at all because while she's blind, she has more mobility and keeps that dog very clean. I personally wouldn't patronize places that let in all dogs because my allergies would go nuts, but that doesn't mean that well behaved dogs should be completely banned.

Jim, that shoe business reminded me of the 1993 PBS special: "Miss Manners and Company."

Synopsis:

"Miss Manners (Judith Martin) combines advice about social behavior with reflections on the history and meaning of etiquette. Members of the studio audience bring their problems to Miss Manners, and a company of actors dramatizes some of the situations that puzzle people in their daily lives."

(It was probably only 30 minutes long, but I forget.)

Some of the skits had rude characters who couldn't begin to grasp that THEY were the ones at fault. One that I remember was a quarrel between a barefoot teen girl and a shop owner who wouldn't let her in. She tried to make the argument that people with shoes carry more diseases, convinced HE was the rude and unreasonable one. The moral of the skit (maybe more than one skit) was: "Common sense isn't everything." I.e., decorum and a certain level of formality matter a lot too, depending on the setting.

Indianapolis had a standoff between two city workers. One had a severe paprika allergy and a legitimate service dog. Another worker in the cube farm had a severe dog allergy. They could not come to any reasonable agreement. I'm not sure how it turned out if/when it got to the courts. Which allergy trumps the other?

Got a wee Papillon back in August. She goes to work with me every day now. With my current hospice case management assignment, most of my patients have dementia. Both of the facilities that I visit insist that I bring her with me. I have an 80% success rate with improved communication and access with my patients as a result. She is not a certified therapy dog, but nobody seems to care.