From the article: Let me first address the "racist" charge. In criticizing an ideology, one cannot be racist, hateful, or bigoted. These descriptors apply to positions held against people and not ideologies.

Oh, bullshit. "I have nothing against you! I only object to your ideology."

Yeah, right. Which of course means that you wouldn't have a single preconceived idea whatsoever when you meet someone who identifies as Muslim.

That's the same mentality that says, "I can't be racist; I'm black."

Wow. Way to miss the point entirely, and illustrate once more that logic is not a familiar tool.

What race are you that suggests you cannot be Muslim?

Are you going to scream, "racist!" at the next anti-gay screed you encounter? Will it make you feel better?

It's fun that your so prissy and white about this...

Blocking traffic ! Imagine!

How could our planet ever have made room for such savagery? ?

HAVE THEY NO DECENCY?

No one would EVER dare to block traffic in the modern west! We wouldn't stand for it!

Unless there was a marathon or something... Any activity where people were leading their lives and inconveniencing others in trivial ways.

Decency, Amy!

Yes, because occasional events are exactly like something that happens five times a day.

You want to see cognitive dissonance in action, watch Affleck lose his shit.

One part of his brain recognizes Harris argument is right, another part is screaming the argument is an attack on what I believe (which most people take to be an attack on them personally)

Harris, while not the best debater I've see does a decent enough job.

But he goes after all religion, and had he been there to talk about the mass graves and slavery ring of the Irish catholic nun ran laundry Ben wouldnt have been the least bit upset

Point well taken, but why focus on the barbarous IS rather than the far more lethal and indiscriminate American killing machine, which has left hundreds of thousands of innocent dead in the Middle East?

Nicholas, that's just fallacy of the excluded middle.

Here is a long but informative lecture on how our the language has been changed by powerful islamists to make criticism of religious ideology into racism, and to make islamophobia illegal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JkAZUvQAzkc

With his loud mouth and closed mind, Ben Affleck is a dangerous man. He has been vociferously defending Islam while harshly criticising 50% of Americans for some time.

What "ism" is that that Ben admits he commits by his admissions in this interview?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/09/ben-affleck-republicans_n_4413293.html

Given Affleck starred in 'Dogma' doesnt this mean he is racist against Christians?

Returning to the issue at hand, several global and reputable surveys (e.g., Pew Research Center) have offered a glimpse to the positions held by Muslims when it comes to a wide range of foundational liberal values (freedom of speech, rights of religious minorities, gay rights, women's rights, apostasy, freedom of conscience). The picture is not pretty and it suggests that a sizeable portion (totaling in the hundreds of millions) hold views that are perfectly antithetical to the fundamental tenets along which Western values are based.

How much of that is Arabic clan-based culture (vs. Western individual-based culture) with a veneer of Islam sitting on top of it and how much is really Islam itself.

Freedoms we take for granted as individuals (speech, religion, etc.) are not always conducive to unit cohesion in a scattered clan-based society. So, one is expected to forego being able to worship as one wants or to question the social unit's foundational belief system or to speak one's mind in favor of social cohesion.

The rise of the state and its separation from religion in the West gradually gave the world a framework for maintaining cohesion in a large, fragmented society. One could have people of different religions worshipping in different churches and still have the larger society be, for example, French.

This has not happened in the Middle East. So, a single vision of Islam is believed to be needed to prevent the artificial state (created in the Treaty of Sèvres) securely in the hands of whatever dictatorial tyrant is in power at the moment.

As Islam becomes a more widespread in societies not tied to clan relationships, it will undergo some dramatic (and traumatic) changes - even as it violently resists them.

So, a single vision of Islam is believed to be needed to prevent the artificial state (created in the Treaty of Sèvres) securely in the hands of whatever dictatorial tyrant is in power at the moment.

that's "prevent the artificial state (created in the Treaty of Sèvres) from fragmenting and keep it securely in the hands of whatever dictatorial tyrant is in power at the moment."

Editing. We need editing.

I'd have to look it up again, but I seem to remember that the MAJORITY of Muslims are not of Arab background. Given how big Islam is and how many Muslims there are in different ethnic groups, that wouldn't be too surprising.

But, IIRC, good Muslims are supposed to learn Arabic anyway so as not to lose anything in any translations of the Koran.

According to that last link, some are countering the Islamization of Paris with Pork and Wine parties - Time to go to Paris!

I think he gets a pass. He is, after all, the artist who gave us 'Gigli'.

So he's just better, ok?

Actors who are famous and make a lot of money think the world wants to know their opinion. And when they give their opinion, there is a camera close by to record what they say.

I want these actors to shut up because they are really stupid and prove it every time they open their mouths.

I'd have to look it up again, but I seem to remember that the MAJORITY of Muslims are not of Arab background. Given how big Islam is and how many Muslims there are in different ethnic groups, that wouldn't be too surprising. ~ Posted by: lenona at October 5, 2014 11:43 AM

True, but he ones in North Africa, Asia Minor, and Iran (Persia) also come from clan-based cultures.

But, IIRC, good Muslims are supposed to learn Arabic anyway so as not to lose anything in any translations of the Koran. Posted by: lenona at October 5, 2014 11:43 AM

I read once that to get into Mecca on the hajj, one has to quote from the Koran in Arabic.

Since the majority of the Muslim world is illiterate, I guess reading from it is out.

You forgot he also kissed Jennifer Lopez' bikini clad ass on camera, as satire.

Jersey Girl was Affleck's best work.

Affleck should stick to selling insurance, he and his duck are good at that.

I'll go out on a limb - I think a small one - that he thinks Maplethorpe's "Piss Christ" is high art, and would support someone's right to burn an American flag, but have a case of the vapors if someone suggested burning a Koran and demand that they be at least investigated for a hate crime, if not just arrested and tossed in jail for their thought crime.

And we get this:

Point well taken, but why focus on the barbarous IS rather than the far more lethal and indiscriminate American killing machine, which has left hundreds of thousands of innocent dead in the Middle East?

You got a source for those hundreds of thousands? Don't say Lancet because I'll laugh at you.

And Cridster: watch out for those vicious Amish. They'll hold you down and...shave your beard right off. They've got that whole strike them above their neck...to instill fear in their hearts thing down pat.

Affleck gets paid to pretend. I don't get paid to care what he says.

But, guys... He's Batman. I mean... that should certainly qualify him to discuss world affairs and relgion. Cuz, pretending to be Bruce Wayne is, like, important. And stuff.

Sorry for missing this earlier... Outta town.

> watch out for those
> vicious Amish.

Again, Agg, sarcasm instead of a clear position. You can't do it all backwards. It's like watching a guy trying speed a country road in reverse using watching only the RVM.

You dropped my name and it would be great to quibble, but you have to sincerely affirm your position first. Nobody wants to discipline other people's snarking teenagers.

Nobody wants to discipline other people's snarking teenagers.

Well, how hot are the female teenagers, and am I allowed to use riding crops?

What do you think about the exchange on 'Real Time', Crid? Whom do you side with, or what would you add?

This one had all sorts of built-in time savers. We can safely disregard any rhetoric which includes the phrases "as a person" or "as people" as being teenage-confused.

this is happening on a cell phone so I don't want to type too much but there are problems with almost everyone's position as quoted in the blog post. Fer example- it seems we're asked to regard radical Islam as the best expression of the faith... So I wonder what's "radical" about it.

also - the 'my friend Hakim argument' is a favorite of Amy's when she's talking about gay parenthood.

did I mention the traffic thing? Yes, I did.... The naivete of that concern is intense. Traffic, in the Western world, is about commerce. .. But in the realms most afflicted with Islam's foolishness, there's no commerce to worry about anyway. That's the point: they're primitive. I get the sense that Amy just can't imagine that any part of the world is like that: she doesn't know what it means. It's easier to panic about Moozlins than to think it through as a matter of human development.

Hell, If I lived in those cultures, I'd interrupt you four times aday, too. What difference would it make? Where were you going today?

also - the 'my friend Hakim argument' is a favorite of Amy's when she's talking about gay parenthood.

Oh yeah, that's right. I've seen that a number of times when you all are in teenager confusion and arguing about lesbian/gay marriage and parents.

Funny, though, I have acquaintances who converted to Islam in their 20s , and one who was raised Muslim. One person in the group recently made a short film/song about ugly American stereotypes of Muslims. It's so good it might persuade Amy -- but it might also make you think less of Muslims because the song/story is country western style. Hahaha. I'll link to it when I find it in YouTube.

Chipping away at it here.

bill maher is not going to be a source of light for anyone on these topics either on a personal level or as a broadcaster. As an individual, he hasn't the candlepower. As a broadcaster, that's not the business he's in.

>  I've seen that a number of times when
> you all are in teenager confusion

Not certain your perspective is to be trusted, Honeybee.

"Honeybee"

Close. My nickname is "Honey Boo Boo".

I'm honest and trustworthy to a fault.

> I'm honest and trustworthy
> to a fault.

And yet your observations are are watery and befouled.

That would be your coffee.

I thought the Michael Steele panelist made a point worth exploring: Why isn't there more media coverage of the massive majority of moderate Muslims protesting the actions of the fringe extremists?

Mosques in Europe and in Amy's old stomping grounds in Michigan have publicly gathered to decry extremism. Is it because the demonstrations are few and far between? Or because attendance is half-hearted and meager?

Amy, that is all fucked up.

messages are getting lost because im on portable tools in shitty time zone.

hut im still right ahout everything, which brings me a tremendous amount of personal satisfaction. I'll mop this up later, because I'm conscientious as well as compassionate. And good-looking.

That would be your coffee.

Coffee was supposedly introduced to Europe after the Christians broke the Muslim siege of Vienna in 1683.

There were bags of coffee beans among the hastily abandoned Muslim supplies. Fortunately for the caffeine addicts among us, someone there knew they weren't camel food, claimed them as spoils of war, and opened a coffee shop.

Or so the story goes.

https://bluebottlecoffee.com/our-story

==============================

Today is the anniversary of The Battle of Lepanto. It took place in 1571. A fleet from the Holy League (a coalition of European Catholic states), decisively defeated the main fleet of the Ottoman Empire, keeping the Mediterranean Sea from becoming a Muslim lake and Venice out of the hands of the Caliphate.

Great info, Conan. I had no idea about the events surrounding the introduction of coffee beans to Europe via Turkish armies.

I've read about the hype of Blue Bottle Coffeee, and wondered why they named it that.

I remember traveling through Turkey back in 1991 and being befriended by a local family who invited me to their home to enjoy a cup of coffee. They were proud of their Turkish coffee.

I have to say, the people of the Turkey countryside were very, very friendly, fascinated by westerners, and gracious

I wish I could say the same about Istanbul.

> This is not something Muslims
> get to say, "Well, what he really
> meant was..." about.

And yet, Amy, BILLIONS DO.

Religions are like that. Are you surprised? Why are YOU so pathetically eager to tell them what the one dear truth of their text means? To tell ANYONE what they can or can't ignore? Why haven't you done the same for Moonies, or Scientologists, or Catholics or Jews? Out-of-your-depth was forgivable, but this is turning into monomania. And pathos.

> Ah, it's settled then. There is nothing
> to worry about

Sometimes straw man arguments are cuntly, inane and juvenile. As well as unconvincing.

Are you (or is Harris) so childish, so naive or so needy as to imagine that these conflicts would be "settled" such that there'd be "nothing to worry about"? Could you seriously contend that Affleck said anything of the kind?

Affleck, bless his pointed little head, is giving sober thought to how the religion is pursued by the people who live it. He righteously acknowledges that the need of some ninnies to describe the most violent observance of Islam as the most sincere, most typical, or most futuristic is ridiculous. Your horniness to do so is more about your complete social isolation from the people you're writing about, as well as your polished-granite ignorance of how their lives are actually lived. Your willful, cowardly disregard. Your inexcusable disinterest. Your despicable fondness for fear-mongering.

STILL WAITING AMY INDONESIA SUNNI OR SHIA OKAY THANKS (9 words, maybe short enough for her to comprehend.)

ALSO WHY AND WHICH HAD THE FIRST FOOTHOLD ON THE ARCHIPELAGO (11, so probably invisible.)


Now, we covered this next part last week, but perhaps Jason is doing the Amy thing of simply ignoring matters she isn't prepared to address. Or doesn't want addressed, because its more funner to screech Moozlims!

> Why isn't there more media coverage of
> the massive majority of moderate Muslims
> protesting the actions of the
> fringe extremists?

Perhaps because moderates almost by definition don't "protest."

Perhaps because the populations under discussion are so diverse that they don't give a rat's ass about the practices of people on the other side of the globe anyway, most of whom they've probably never heard of. (Amy and her playmates are so constrained in their appreciation of world populations that she can't imagine that any similarity described in one word isn't also proportionally represented in a central office somewhere, like that best tent-pitchers of the Camp Fire Girls. If it's not a typical Western technocracy, she doesn't know how to deal.)

AMY WHERE'S SUNNI TOP OFFICE WHERE'S SHIA OKAY GOOD TALK. (10 words.)

Perhaps because they don't give a rat's ass how modernity and commerce feel about Islam, as modernity and commerce haven't done dick for their lives.

When the fuck did you ever "protest" to demonstrate your magnificently even temperament to someone you've never met?

When did you ever "protest" for anything?

Yeah? Tell us about it! You must be tremendously proud. I betcher just bustin' your buttons over there.

"I betcher just bustin' your buttons over there."

Ha! How many buttons did you bust while typing that?

Crid, you misunderstood the question. Bear with me because I'm using a phone.

One of the guests on 'Real Time' , the former Republican Conference chairman named Michael Steele, asked if media was sufficiently covering Muslim protests of IS or ISIS. Read it slowly and carefully. The question was about *media* coverage of Muslim protests of ISIS beheadings etc. and if more attention was afforded them, what impact would that have.

Google "Muslim protest ISIS".
Your tantrum about the word "protest" is hilarious.

If that wasn't clear. My point is that there *have* been protests of ISIS by Muslims. As I said, Google Muslim protests.

I didn't say Muslims *have not* protested, if that's what you thought I was saying and why you're so upset, sugar bear.

Because this fascination with "protests" is so goofy, it's difficult to regard your distress with media coverage as sincere. It's all so blinkered and provincial... For only the second time in ten years of blog-bitching on here, I'm compelled to use the word bourgeois. (Look, I feel bad, but you've left me no choice.)

You have this baseless perception of Islamic coherence... Of rhetorical, political, administrative and even spiritual alignment which is nowhere in evidence. ('Well Golly, what does their charter say?') But that's the only way you can think of dealing with things, because it's all you've seen in the whitebread American context, where everyone with an affinity shares a P.R. office, if not a single executive chamber. So you can't imagine any social change unless it happens as it did in the (much smaller-scale) examples of your lifetime, or perhaps the postwar period.

Because That one scene in Gandhi!, right? Protests! That was fabulous. You want to think that these arrays of people scattered around the globe --otherwise similar only in poverty, illiteracy, and detachment from even regional political affairs-- will signal things to distant and disinterested sects about the kindness at the heart of modern civility. (Dakar! Dearborn! Kuala Lumpur!) The pulsing source of these transmissions will be a series of "protests" for each other, which they'll observe on their wide-screen Samsung Glo-Brite™ HD television sets in their carpeted living rooms.

Or else you just want a bunch of fuckers to step out into the rain, downtown, on a workday, and get all shouty and risk arrest and pepper spray merely to signal something comforting to you.

Wait for that, OK? Wait for that to happen. Hold your breath.

"Google Muslim protests"!

"Because That one scene in Gandhi!, right?"

Ghandi was a Lutheran, sir. Talk about a "baseless perception of Islamic coherence". Hahaha.

Crid, remember a little while ago when ISIS first made big headlines, and we were, and are still, wondering what the fuck is the deal with the middle east? Amy linked to an article about the quagmire of factions and warring tribes in the Islamic middle east and why it is foolish for the US to get deeply involved there.

I'm using a phone and it's cumbersome. Let me get back to you a little later, and we'll send links and discuss and have a great time. Cheers.

Okay! Be sure to send links of protests! Moozlim ones!

That way we'll know there's PROGRESS!

We'll know that people who haven't got a cot-tam thing to do with our problems are doing everything they can to make us feel better!

And for the record--

> remember a little while ago when
> ISIS first made big headlines, and
> we were, and are still, wondering
> what the fuck is the deal with the
> middle east?

Go easy on the we, Muffin... I had no such moment.

More later, after work and maybe sleep. I got thoughts.

Ok, so I have a few hundred more words about the protest thing, but it's late, and the moment has passed.

It's a safe bet that nobody's dying to see them, so they'll wait. It won't be long until someone starts chattering about protests again, and I'll be ready for it.

Meanwhile, if you want a personalized version, send an email.

This is a long week, right.