The thing is there are plenty of old, fat women who manage to find men after being divorced or widowed. They do take time to make themselves cute, though, and do their hair, and they don't whine about it.

You're right, Nicole. Not every man can get the 25-year-old. The smart ones realize that and do the best with what they have. I'm 51. I keep up my curb appeal. It's a must!

Curb appeal, good use of the term.

Avoid looking frumpy would be my recommendation. You're no longer 20, simply batting your eyes is no longer sufficient.

In my case, I also rule out women who outweigh me. Unless they're 6'5" WNBA players who are height-weight proportional. Reality check: they won't go out with a guy under 6', so I'm out of luck there.

Or just become the crazy cat lady. The cats will love you, as long as you feed them.

Accepting yourself is very difficult.

The upside to doing this though is that your positive attributes then come through very strongly. Strong positive personalities are attractive. Being attractive creates opportunities for interaction.

If you do not HAVE positive attributes then by all means waste your time complaining about how unfair life is. That helps us guys eliminate you w/o spending much time or money on you.

Ms. Grey says: "No man I know has ever been told that his powers, his allure, his charm have faded, and that he has to face up to that redundancy."

Maybe not about their looks, but there are many, many 50-something men who have been let go from their jobs and can't find another one. Same diff.

Tail!

- Uncle Cridmo, dob '59

Presently concluding a trip to a college town were I fell in love with at least three coeds over four days. Was careful to leave them flattered, not creeped.

Everybody, everybody wants what they want.

"and that he has to face up to that redundancy."

Actually we are told we are redundant EVERY STINKIN' DAY. Regardless of age.

But along the way, most guys hit their "yeah? WTFEver" phase... where they like looking at someone young, but essentially don't bother with women at all. Too much PITA, not enough nookie, and expensive. I got 100 hundred problems... why would I add to them?

"and that he has to face up to that redundancy."

Actually we are told we are redundant EVERY STINKIN' DAY. Regardless of age.

But along the way, most guys hit their "yeah? WTFEver" phase... where they like looking at someone young, but essentially don't bother with women at all. Too much PITA, not enough nookie, and expensive. I got 100 hundred problems... why would I add to them?

Posted by: SwissArmyD at March 11, 2015 7:33 AM

Ditto.

With most women somewhere in their late fifties a switch gets turned off. I suppose it has something to do with menopause.

I love my husband, and want to spend time with him, but building a new relationship other than the most casual of friendships takes way more effort than I would be willing to put into just about anything.

I will never get married again. I am not that needy, and not that lonesome.

I need a man to *take care of* about as much as I need two large Huskies shedding on my carpet, and my furniture, and chewing the remote control,

I can understand women who have built their whole life around being attractive to men, who suddenly find out that they just *arent* anymore.
It can be extremely damaging to their already low self esteem.

Not every man wants a 25 year old aside from fantasy., even if they could get one. I think for many older men my mom would be their version of an ideal partner (looks and age wise I mean). She works, has her own money, doesn't age but doesn't look too young, is in same stage in life, dresses conservatively.

People think her husband is her father. The age difference doesn't warrant that. I've asked him if he's proud of the fact and he quipped "Yes! But now ask her how she feels about me!"

There are expectations for men. They must make money, be physically strong (not necessarily 6-pack abs), be taller than the girl, not complain, be able to fix things, kill spiders, cut grass, know about finances and taxes, etc.
There used to be expectations for women besides being pretty: they were expected to have manners, know how to make clothes, can food, have a garden, raise chickens, work hard. That is, both husband and wife worked physically hard to support and take care of the family. But since we are all now rich, all those things are passé and really sexist. How dare anyone expect a wife to be happy about cleaning the house? So no husband is allowed to expect the wife to do anything. That leaves being pretty as the only expectation. If feminism means women should not be expected to give anything to the marriage...well.

Yup. Women are shocked to find men have preferences too.

Ask any short or bald man how superficial women can be.

The swimsuit issue may never feature older and plumper ladies, but there isn't a Fifty Shades of Boss Hog either.

When women who are 55 complain about how men are attracted to younger women, I always want to ask them how many men their own age they gave the time of day to when they were 25. There's a reason why some guys do that... they're trying to make up for lost time.

"No man I know has ever been told that his powers, his allure, his charm have faded, and that he has to face up to that redundancy."

Nonsense. If he's an average man in today's society, he lived his whole life up to the age of 35 or so without any of those things. He learned early on how to deal with being socially invisible, because there was no other choice.

Here's the big problem we have today: It's well documented that, of the surface characteristics one can observe upon first meeting, men are attracted to physical beauty, while women are attracted to signs of financial security and social status. Women in their early 20s are generally at the peak of their physical beauty, and so they have very high social value. Not only are they widely viewed as potential mates, but people in general want to be around them and have some of that social status rub off. On the other hand, men in their early 20's are generally at the nadir of their social value. They have none of those things that women are first-glance attracted to: they are at the beginning of their careers so they don't have wealth, and they do not what you might call "experience at living" and so they have no social status. This, then, is why you see some 30-or-older men chasing after younger women: it's because they finally have opportunities that weren't available to them when they were younger.

"I want to have some fun this weekend. Want to join me?"

With interesting people this typically leads to an interesting conversation and perhaps an interesting/entertaining day.

"Getting lucky" is simply a matter of what your definition of "lucky" is. Good conversation is absolutely the "luckiest" thing a person can find after you reach a certain age/experience.

Becoming Mr./Ms. Right Now can lead to becoming Mr./Ms. Right.

> Not every man wants a 25 year old

☑ ☑ ☑

> aside from fantasy.

Or even there. Young women are fun to look at, and that's often all it means. I figger it's because of that scien-tiffical biology-tude.

Worked with a single doc that was obsessed with men being such pigs for ‘always wanting younger women’ (she was my age, early 40s). She would go on ad nauseam about man ‘chasing girls way too young for them’. Truly obsessed with spite over it. Like with that situation, IRL it is best just to nod your head and make sympathetic sounds.

Overall, an interesting take on how even though male society is being warped by ‘newspeak’ and the thought police to where we are scared to point out any physical/gender/racial differences—unless it is to point out how evil white males are or how everybody else is oppressed. However, although behavior and speech are much more constrained than before, you can’t make a man love/ask out someone he is not interested in. You can put lipstick on biology but it is still biology. I have found this to be an entertaining source of congestive dissonance in the feminist crowd. The current batch of the youngest are living in their insulated college worlds, surrounded by simps and manginas trying to politically-correct themselves into their paints since they have youth and beauty. Oh yeah, this also counts as 'rape culture'. However, for most this will change quickly as their beauty fades. I am sure it will be the source of all manner of indignant internet articles.

Full disclosure: I would really like to go out with a 25 year old except the thought makes me feel so creepy and old...

Cousin Dave, I don't know who you were hanging out with when you were 25, but all the girls I knew were dating guys in their age bracket... they'd date up to 30 or so but certainly not 55! Hell, I don't any women -my- age who date 55-year-olds, and I'm 38!!!

Wait I know one, actually she went WAY older and he's about 70... he's super rich though, he was in an article about the 50 most powerful people on Boston. So he's not upper middle class, or just kinda rich. And she's not 25, she's 40.

@Crid: Young women are fun to look at, and that's often all it means. I figger it's because of that scien-tiffical biology-tude.

Yeah, after a certain point, reality becomes so stark even normal fantasies can't overcome it. After a few seconds dreaming about the cute coed, one realizes that Isaac Davis in Manhattan was really gross, and any comparison to Woody Allen is pretty odious.

Who knows what's going on in people's private lives, but I don't know any guys my age who are truly looking to much younger women for romance. The men I've known in earlier times who were prowling that way were seen as sad and harmless. The stereotype of men who lose their way in such matters is pathetic for a reason.

> would really like to go out with
> a 25 year old

What would you, y'know, say?

would you, y'know, say?

Posted by: Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at March 11, 2015 4:08 PM

Would you like to go to Disney World?

"...I fell in love with at least three coeds over four days. Was careful to leave them flattered, not creeped out."

Posted by: Crid [CridComment at Gmail] at March 11, 2015 7:30 AM

That borders on being a public service.

"I need a man to *take care of* about as much as I need two large Huskies shedding on my carpet, and my furniture, and chewing the remote control,"

Posted by: Isab at March 11, 2015 7:54 AM

Widowed about 20 years sooner than expected. Just got two puppies (not huskies - nothing that needs to run more than I do). It was a good thing to do - mirror neurons, dopamine, exuberant joy, no u-haul.

But... I spent 20 years wih someone who adored me and couldn't keep her hands off me. This is a very different kind of lonely.

You beat me to it, NicoleK.

Just because men often prefer to LOOK at women who are 20 years younger or more doesn't change the fact that most WOMEN prefer to date men much closer to their own age - and that often goes double when the women are trying to get married.

Not to mention that plenty of men in their 50s or 60s might well be happy with a woman in her 40s.

To Craig: I may not be able to do household repairs that are above what the average person might be able to do after looking up a certain problem in a generic book on the subject, but I don't expect a man to be able to do that, either (if only because some repairs are risky, as with plumbing or construction problems). I WOULD certainly expect him to be frugal enough to get of debt by age 30 unless he's in graduate school, be non-obese, and to do everything possible to avoid hiring those people who charge plenty for things one can very often do alone. Same as I do.

I also expect him to have basic manners, do his own clothes-mending (MAKING clothes is often far more expensive and time-consuming than yard-saling or buying from thrift stores), and clean when I clean so neither of us feels we're doing more than half each. Who really LIKES cleaning unless X is a full-time homemaker?

Also, most Americans don't have vegetable gardens or livestock or need to can food. Of course, whether you're male or female, if you marry a farmer, you should expect to work hard, physically.

I think the real thing to remember is that since sex and money are the main sources of problems that lead to divorce, one has to talk honestly and clearly in ADVANCE about just what your personal and financial goals are and how you two will reach them together in a way that pleases both of you. (Hint: If you're frugal and the other person is not and doesn't want to be, forget it.) Also, TIME is money too, so it's much better if you two can agree on having as few wasteful hobbies as possible. If your hobbies help to save you money rather than costing money, you're on the right track. (Another hint: Watching TV very seldom gives you any money-saving ideas that make up for the cost of having TV on in the first place. Especially compared to cooking and cleaning together - at least you'll save time later, which you can then spend in the bedroom.)

How many women complained about this when Twilight came out? After all Edward is 108 and Bella is 16. Talk about Woody Allen level of creepy.

Would you like to go to Disney World?

Thread over. You win.

For what it's worth, my experience is different. I have a lot more bold passes now that I'm older. Of course, the dynamics are totally different. Back then there was either the promise of a potential relationship or the fear of a stalking situation.

Now men the make passes just want a little nookie.

There are so many variables that I don't know how to attribute the change. Is it just a cougar fad? Is it because I am not fearful because I feel protected by my husband? Is it because they think I'm a slut? Is it because I've put on weight and have a ton of curves? Is it because I am financially secure and splurge on manicures, pedicures, waxes and don't have to drive a rusting vehicle without air-conditioning? Who knows?

Anyone can tell me what I'm supposed to like. It hasn't worked yet, but feel free to keep trying.

Is it because I've put on weight and have a ton of curves?

Posted by: Jen at March 11, 2015 8:58 PM

Yes. Definitely.

...I may be projecting.

@Jen

I have gotten this too. But suspect that it is because I am perceived to be weathy by the men I know through shooting.

And Michelle, I am sorry for your loss, but my point was that most men and women my age are looking for financial security, and a caretaker, not the love of their life.

When my husband is gone, if I am unfortunate enough to outlive him, my loyalties financial and otherwise remain with my children, and my close friends.

He has done absolutely everything for me, and my family that I could possibly wish for, and he cannot be replaced.

My romantic notions about human relationships died about three or four years ago.

"Cousin Dave, I don't know who you were hanging out with when you were 25, but all the girls I knew were dating guys in their age bracket... "

Maybe it was a function of where I lived at the time, but I did not see many girls my age dating guys my age. A lot of the girls wanted more than what a 25-year-old guy could provide. So they either dated older or went after the top 10% of their age cohort. Those top 10% were lucky guys; they could pick and choose. Among the rest of us single guys, most had no girlfriend and few dating prospects. That's one reason the front half of GenX was such a baby-bust generation, is my theory.

I still see this among a fair number of the young women I come across. One is rather generously provided for by her family, and she doesn't want a guy who can't give her at least as much as her family does. Another gal, who's cute and all (I'd ask her out if I were her age and single), but she's not a supermodel, sincerely believes she can bag a famous athlete and she won't settle for anything less. She complains constantly about how lonely she is, but she ignores the guys all around her, and she almost never accepts a date. Instead, she hangs out with her girl-pals and the reinforce each other about the poor quality of the men of their generation.

To expand on my last post:

Novelist Sheri Tepper wrote in a pamphlet for Planned Parenthood (she was one of their executives in the 1970s):

"DO THINGS FOR YOURSELF...

"If you can handle an eggbeater, you can handle a screwdriver. If you can turn over a mattress, you can change a tire. If you can sew on a button, you can drive a nail. If you don't know how, you can learn. And so can he...

"DON'T PLAY POOR LITTLE ME...

"Don't ask your male co-workers to lift something, or climb up somewhere, unless you're sixty and they're young. If you were doing housework, you'd shift the couch, carry the groceries, pick up a child weighing forty to fifty pounds. The maximum strength of women, as a group, is not equal to the maximum strength of men, as a group. However, maximum strength is seldom needed.

"You can cripple yourself, of course, by wearing stupidly sexist clothing - like shoes with two-inch soles, or skirts so short you don't dare go up a ladder, or things so tight you can't lift without ripping. That's your fault. Dress like that if you're going to be a doll, not if you're going to be a person."

And again, about how no one likes cleaning...

I know a well-educated man in his late 40s who's said that a man shouldn't have to clean house when there's a woman around, since that's just "natural." Maybe it's also natural for some teen boys to hate school more than teen girls. Should we make it easier for boys to drop out?

For those who argue that only women really care about keeping a house neat and clean, I would suggest that it's not just about one's health and the convenience of finding things in a hurry; it's about realizing that just because any guests you invite might be politely mum about the stenches and dust mice in your house doesn't mean they aren't offended/disgusted on a certain level, since it's not their house. I.e., cleaning is about EVERYONE'S standards, not just your picky wife's.

I get why men find young women attractive, but I just don't know very many who actively pursue them. The vast majority of the men I know date women within a few years of their age.

I asked my husband about his preferences once (he is breathtakingly honest about such things, so I have no reason to think he was lying), and he said he wants a companion -- someone who shares his generational experiences. He also prefers someone his own age who is attractive for her age, so I try to meet that standard.

"...my loyalties financial and otherwise remain with my children, and my close friends.

He has done absolutely everything for me, and my family that I could possibly wish for, and he cannot be replaced."

Posted by: Isab at March 12, 2015 7:22 AM

I can relate.

And I would not expect a healthy adult to expect another healthy adult to shift finances or other expressions of loyalty or commitment away from one's beloveds.

That said, my experience, there are different kinds of intimacy that each nourish something essential and are irreplaceable.

I can almost sympathize with Ms. Grey, because I know it can be hard going from the prettiest girl in the room to...not. But that's no excuse for not doing the best you can with what you've got. Her friend gave her advice similar to Amy's piece:

(From The Guardian:)
“It’s the 55-year-old, slightly rumpled silver foxes that I stare at, the tall well-travelled well-used ones. But they don’t see me.”

“Perhaps you should wear brighter colours.”

I looked down at myself. “I like navy blue. What’s wrong with navy blue?”

“These are just facts. Men like youth. They like long hair. They like colour. They like slender, as well. Sorry. You’re going to have to lose weight and grow your hair and wear red if you want the silver foxes to see you.”
***
OF COURSE there are men who will chase women 20 years younger... but I think most men are looking at ladies within 10 years of their own age *who are still attractive.* If you want to attract straight men, whatever age they are, you can't go out looking like Pat. And if you're a "lady of a certain age" trying to date online, skip Tinder and sign up for Ourtime.

Note that Grey is upset that the men SHE is interested in aren't interested in her. So, she can have her standards, but whines about men having their own.

Lenona,

Keeping a clean house is definitely not a gender thing. If I left the cleaning up to my wife we would have mold growing up the walls. I know just as many dirty girls as dirty boys. It is just a person thing.

"I asked my husband about his preferences once (he is breathtakingly honest about such things, so I have no reason to think he was lying), and he said he wants a companion -- someone who shares his generational experiences."

Yes, this. Most people will want someone who grew up in the same time period. Us X'ers want to go off in the corner and talk about our first PCs, the ones with the 32K memory and cassette storage. Millennials roll their eyes at all that old-fogey talk.

If, heaven forbid, something were to happen to my wife and I found myself single again: Never say never, but if I entered a relationship with a younger woman, it would have to be a special situation. (P.S.: my wife is older than me.)

To Ben:

OK, maybe I should have said "cleaning is about EVERYONE'S standards, not just your picky SPOUSE's standards."

After all, while I didn't see the 1990 Susan Sarandon movie "White Palace," there was an amusing op-ed by Ellen Goodman -

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19901114&id=OSkxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JQcEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1188,3294683

- about how the age and class differences between the two lovers were trivial compared to the fact that he was a neatnik and she was a slob - that is, opposites tend not to attract in those cases. Even though Goodman herself admitted to BEING a slob married to a neatnik. However, she also implied that she sees herself as being very much in the minority compared to those couples where the genders are reversed - not to mention those couples where both parties have the same intolerance level for dirt and clutter, regardless of whether they or hired cleaners do the cleaning.

But I wanted to emphasize that if you're the type who considers cleaning your own house to be beneath you AND you expect someone else to do all the cleaning without getting paid or compensated, chances are you'll find yourself very much alone.

"But I wanted to emphasize that if you're the type who considers cleaning your own house to be beneath you AND you expect someone else to do all the cleaning without getting paid or compensated, chances are you'll find yourself very much alone."

And that's what we expect to happen to bigoted people.

To complicate the housecleaning debate a bit, I observe that standards of cleanliness can vary depending on what it is that is being cleaned. My wife is generally a neatnik, and she has laundry sorting and handling procedures that border on obsessive. (Most people sort clothes into whites and colors, and maybe delicates. She sorts into about 12 categories, all of which get washed separately.) I am generally not a neatnik. However, I cannot stand a dirty kitchen, and I have pretty high standards for what constitutes "dirty". I'm not happy unless those countertops are gleaming. So we divide chores. It works out.

Honestly Lenona the whole stereotype you described sounded old or foreign to me. As in it is only old guys or foreign guy who say only a woman should clean. Now adays it is more of a 'the wife lets you in the house? Wow!' thing. Which is why Houston has so many window AC units in garages. That is the only room in the house a man can get.

Similarly I've expressed my disbelief that college educated women can cook. I know there are a few out there but we are talking sub 1% territory. So that old stereotype of a woman cooking for her family is another one for foreigners.

Like Cousin Dave we split the chores based on who is more interested in them. And if you criticize how the other person is doing those chores they are now your responsibility. I don't know if things are always exactly 50/50, but if it is important to you then you fix it. And when you have too much to do the other person can pick up the slack.

Maybe it was a function of where I lived at the time, but I did not see many girls my age dating guys my age. A lot of the girls wanted more than what a 25-year-old guy could provide. So they either dated older or went after the top 10% of their age cohort. Those top 10% were lucky guys; they could pick and choose.

*******

Older, sure, but not 55! Generally the girls I knew dated a range of about 2 years younger to 5 years older. So the guys were around the same age.

I get your point about the upper 10%. It sucks. It goes both ways. For every goofy guy sighing about all the girls going after the obnoxious popular guys, there's a frumpy femme sighing about how all the guys are going after the bitchy popular girls.

Luckily it's something both sexes outgrow, and the goofy guys and frumpy femmes end up finding each other and probably lead happier lives than the ones who rejected them.

To Ben:

I will add that if you are a woman like Ellen Goodman and wish that your neatnik husband/boyfriend would stop expecting you to spend as much time cleaning as much as HE does, since the dirt doesn't bother you, again, you're likely to find yourself alone - and any guests likely won't want to return very often, either.

But then it isn't a story about sex based work expectations. Instead it is a story about mutual compatibility.