I always put this to the hamburger test... I'm a strict, lifelong vegetarian, so I ask myself, "What if they were making me serve a hamburger".

In this case, the answer would be, "I wouldn't work there".

There's a reason I never waited tables.

In one case, the duties of the job changed after the incumbent took it. In the other, the person took a job which required her to violate her religious beliefs. Not exactly the same thing, in my opinion.

Maybe the complaint against her was "discriminatory, with the employee noting Stanley carried a book with "foreign writings" and wore a head scarf."

Or maybe it wasn't.

She took the job knowing full well what was involved. A "Reasonable" accommodation shouldn't be the work your religion forbids you from doing gets dumped on your co-workers. That's really not fair to the co-workers.

I suspect what more likely happened; a co-worker complained about having to do someone else's job (or part of it) without extra pay. So, instead of admitting that, yea, the co-worker had to do more work she'll cry discrimination.

What is up with these people who think that they don't have to do their job because their religion forbids it? Maybe, I should start my own religion, the rules are: The Sabbath is Saturday through Thursday, no heavy lifting, and no more than 4 hours for the work week of Friday. And you have to pay me!

There are cab drivers in Minneapolis who won't carry passengers carrying alcohol or who have a Leader Dog. To me, the solution is simple: If you cannot accommodate the tasks of the job, you don't work that job.

If you see other people's behavior (in this case drinking alcohol) as a violation of YOUR personal beliefs, why oh why would you take a job serving the public?

Actually, the law requires only a "reasonable" accommodation. I'm not a flight attendant, so I don't know how reasonable it is for one flight attendant to not serve alcohol. I do fly quite a bit, though, and on short flights (which she flies), I rarely see people drinking alcohol.

If the entire crew were Muslim, it wouldn't be reasonable to not serve alcohol.

This will come down to the reasonableness of her request. I suspect the airline will lose.

"Reasonable accommodation" should apply to people with physical handicaps, not moral objections to something. Like Nicole and Amy said, if your religious beliefs prohibit you from performing all the duties of the job, then don't take the job.

More of our PC craziness.

On the other hand, no booze service on plane flights, but a kiosk in the secure area before boarding, might solve a lot of problems.

With my allergies I have pretty much given up trying to eat or drink anything they serve on the planes.

I'm at a loss with some of these jobs where you can cry about your crappy circumstances and think you'll get your way. I guess I live in a we-will-fire-you-at-will state so you learn if they ask you to work, well you work if you want the pay. All these stories about people being able to sue and complain and get a payday just make me think I live in a different United States than they do. The mill here in our town forces you to work OT. At least it's clearly understood that if you don't work OT, they will come up with a reason to fire you.

...during that time converted to Islam
So, she knew the alcohol thing would become a problem, but it's not her problem, because RELIGION is why.

For Kim Davis...the duties of the job changed after the incumbent took it.
This is not germane to her situation. She also found religion after taking the job.

They have the freedom...to find a new job. No one is persecuting either because of their religion. They will not perform their job.

Too bad she's been suspended. Otherwise, it would have been highly entertaining had she refused to serve booze to a lesbian couple in Oregon airspace.

Here is the oath of office for a county clerk in Kentucky:

I, ....., do swear that I will well and truly discharge the duties of the office of .............. County Circuit Court clerk, according to the best of my skill and judgment, making the due entries and records of all orders, judgments, decrees, opinions and proceedings of the court, and carefully filing and preserving in my office all books and papers which come to my possession by virtue of my office; and that I will not knowingly or willingly commit any malfeasance of office, and will faithfully execute the duties of my office without favor, affection or partiality, so help me God.

I don't see an exemption for "anything I find disagreeable". If anything, Kim Davis committed malfeasance and should be removed from office. Looks like charges should be filed with this commission. She can no more hold up gay marriage licenses than should could for interracial couples.

An all-Muslim flight crew - actually, I'd be more concerned about the cockpit crew deciding to roll out the prayer rugs for one of the 5 mandatory calls to prayer during a final approach.
(A friend had an analogous experience as a USAF flight instructor. He was teaching M.E. flight cadets. During a touch and go exercise, one of the cadets turned the plane East, let go of the controls and bowed to pray - pushing the yoke forward. He pulled it out, and with colorful adjectives, asked what the cadet was thinking. The answer was "If God wills it, we will survive and land safely.")
Distinguishing between faith and fatalism does not make me an Islamophobe.

In re Ms Davis - it's rather disingenuous to say that

'...the duties of the job changed after the incumbent took it."

She didn't 'take the job' - she sought election to the position. And then she swore an oath to uphold the laws of the state of Kentucky and to carry out her statutory duties as the State legislature sees fit to require. All of them. Not just the ones she agrees with. If the duties that the State requires her to carry out in that position change in a way that is at odds with her beliefs, then her only lawful course is to resign the position. All this nonsense about how she is being martyred for her religious belief is just that - Nonsense.

She is, of course, being pretty hypocritical about this. By the same token, it seems pretty bizarre to me that it was felt necessary to take her to the Federal joint in leg-irons and a belly-chain. It does seem as though the progressives who fought for SSM are (in the words of another) very sore winners, determined to seek out every vestige of disagreement and stamp it out with unwarranted vigor. Could this couple really not have gone 20 miles down the road to get a marriage license from a willing clerk in another county, while Rowan County sorted out the strange situation of its deluded county clerk? Sometimes it does seem that SJWs can be extremely petty and vindictive.

By-the-way - I'll bet good money that she is not the only county clerk in the US who is resisting this development. I know SSM is very unpopular in certain communities - I'll bet that the message in those communities is subtly- or not-so-subtly similar to the message Ms Davis gave out. I wonder why the media is concentrating on this particular case to such an unjustified degree - one county clerk in a tiny county in BF Kentucky tops the headlines for days on end? Could is be that she fits the preferred progressive narrative too perfectly? White, slightly-loopy Evangelical Christian in the heart of cousin-marrying redneck backwoods country? I'd like to see the media go looking a little further afield - I'll bet they wouldn't have to look too far for a Mormon county clerk, or a foot-washin' Baptist African-American, or a Black Muslim, who would behave likewise. But I doubt they will.

Regarding the flight attendant - if you knew that handling alcohol was part of the job when you hired in - Too Bad. It would be like taking a job as a bartender and then announcing that you couldn't handle alcohol. Sorry. If she can get her co-workers to cover for her, voluntarily, that's their business and it's all good. But she has no basis on which to ask her employer to cover for her. And even-more so if, as I understand, she converted to Islam years after taking the job - so she can scarcely claim that she did not know what the job entailed.

Attorney Masri is well-known hereabouts - finding and pursuing claims of religious discrimination against Muslims is her job description, not surprising when she does so. Some of her cases have actual merit. But not this one.

llater,

llamas

see an exemption for "anything I find disagreeable". If anything, Kim Davis committed malfeasance and should be removed from office. Looks like charges should be filed with this commission. She can no more hold up gay marriage licenses than should could for interracial couples.

Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at September 8, 2015 9:31 AM

I'm with VDH on this one. The woman should be in jail, but so should the leadership of all the sanctuary cities who refuse to enforce federal immigration law. ( and it should have happened a long time ago).

"With my allergies I have pretty much given up trying to eat or drink anything they serve on the planes."

I'm interested in how you find a drink to be a trigger for an allergic response. Aluminum can allergy?

IRA Darth Aggie - not quite. The oath you linked is the one for Clerk of Circuit Court. That is not the position that Kim Davis occupies. She is County Clerk, aka Clerk of Deeds, keeper of the County's records, not the Circuit Court's.

Her oath of office, if you can believe it, goes like this:

Section 228 of the Kentucky Constitution, oath of officers and attorneys:

Members of the General Assembly and all officers, before they enter upon the execution of the duties of their respective offices, and all members of the bar, before they enter upon the practice of their profession, shall take the following oath or affirmation:

"I do solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of this Commonwealth, and be faithful and true to the Commonwealth of Kentucky so long as I continue a citizen thereof, and that I will faithfully execute, to the best of my ability, the office of ——————— according to law; and I do further solemnly swear (or affirm) that since the adoption of the present Constitution, I, being a citizen of this State, have not fought a duel with deadly weapons within this State nor out of it, nor have I sent or accepted a challenge to fight a duel with deadly weapons, nor have I acted as second in carrying a challenge, nor aided or assisted any person thus offending, so help me God."

Leaving aside the bits about duels, she swears to uphold the US constitution and the Kentucky constitution, and will carry out her office 'according to law'. If she won't do that, she has disqualified herself from office and must resign or be impeached out of office, one or the other.

llater,

llamas

"Reasonable accommodation" should apply to people with physical handicaps

Actually, no, not even then. If someone cannot do a job, they should not hold that job. It's really that simple. For almost any disability, there are jobs where it is irrelevant. Can't find one? Tough, sorry, shit happens. Why should people make special accommodations, when non-handicapped people need the job just as badly, and can do it better?

As far as religion goes, it's even more obvious: If you choose not to do a certain type of work, then what the devil are you doing in a job that requires it? If a vegetarian takes a job as a waitress in a normal restaurant, they had better be prepared to serve meat dishes. If they can't handle that, they should look for a waitressing job in a vegetarian restaurant.

Religion is a private issue; it affects no one but you and those who believe as you do. It is not your neighbor's problem, it is of no interest to the person next to you in the bus, and it certainly is of zero interest to your employer.

I'm interested in how you find a drink to be a trigger for an allergic response. Aluminum can allergy?

Posted by: Radwaste at September 8, 2015 10:25 AM

Water is ok. Club soda is usually also ok. But something in most commercial sodas and juices gives me hives. I think it is the preservatives. Same for most prepackaged commercial bread, cookies, yogurt etc.

My father had the same problem.

Same for most prepackaged commercial bread, cookies, yogurt etc.

My father had the same problem.

~ Posted by: Isab at September 8, 2015 10:46 AM

So did Mark Rudkin. Because of his allergies to processed foods, his mother, Margaret, started baking bread for him at home. Mark's doctor recommended his mother's food for his other patients with severe allergies. She named the bread "Pepperidge Farms" after the family homestead and approached grocers about selling it.

llamas: Could this couple really not have gone 20 miles down the road to get a marriage license from a willing clerk in another county, while Rowan County sorted out the strange situation of its deluded county clerk? Sometimes it does seem that SJWs can be extremely petty and vindictive.

Is the next county clerk only 20 miles down the road? Must have small counties in Kentucky. Or her County Clerk's office must be close to the border of Rowan County and the next one over is similarly close to the border.

But that's irrelevant. Why should County Clerks pick up the slack for other County Clerks who won't do their jobs, citing religious objections?

"Well, this County Clerk is Jewish, so he has to go the next county to get a license for his pig farm."

"My County Clerk is Mormon so all the stores and bars in this county have to go to the next county for their liquor and tobacco licenses."

"I realize I'm your County Clerk, but I'm Catholic and I have a religious objection to divorce, so you'll just have to go to the next county for your marriage license. I refuse to issue one to a divorcee."

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, llamas.

To be fair Isab it is Eric Holder and Obama who should be in jail over the failure to uphold immigration law among many others. That is a federal program and it is the responsibility of the federal government (namely the executive branch) to enforce those laws. States are not required to. (Surprised no one dinged me on this in the past thread.)

But if you ask Obama and Holder why they shouldn't be sent to jail they'll tell you a sob story about finite resources and setting priorities. So how about Davis just organizes her priorities similarly. Those marriage licenses are in the queue. As soon as someone comes free we'll get them processed right away. Of course with finite resources and priorities and such you may be dead before she lets one go.

@ Patrick - you must have missed the second part of my comment, where I said 'while Rowan County sorted out the strange situation of its deluded county clerk?' I was merely suggesting a temporary accommodation, while the due process of returning Ms Davis to private life takes its course. Look, she's a little bit away-with-the-fairies, but does what she did really warrant being shackled like an ax murderer and locked up in the Federal joint for a week? I understand she was just let out.

Never ask a question of fact, that you don't know the answer to. From Morehead, KY, county seat of Rowan County, to Owingsville, KY, county seat of Bath County, is 20.9 miles according to Google Maps. Both are more-or-less in the center of their respective counties. But even in a standard Jeffersonian county, it shouldn't be more than a 40-mile trip, each way. I'll bet that the aggrieved SSM couple that raised all this stink drove further than this to arrange the flowers. It surely does seem to me that an extreme and vindictive pleasure has been taken in punishing this poor deluded woman to the extremes of the law's just measure, just to 'teach her a lesson'. This is not the way to win people over to your cause.

llater,

llamas

How long would this temporary accommodation last? She isn't going to resign, and since most of the Kentucky legislature is on her side, she won't be impeached.

named the bread "Pepperidge Farms" after the family homestead and approached grocers about selling it.

Posted by: Conan the Grammarian at September 8, 2015 11:15 AM

Yes, and now to legally sell it commercially, they have to put most of the same crap in it, that a lot of us are allergic to.

(Their frozen stuff may be ok).

I don't eat out much at all these days. I cook at home.

Llamas: "Never ask a question of fact, that you don't know the answer to."

How else to find out the answer, if you wish to know?

Yes, people could apply elsewhere for a license.
Can you provide an argument for why they should have to? Also, what happens when the next county over begins to refuse? Where do you draw the line? The answer is that you. do. not.

Vindictive? Sure. For those on both sides, that view this as a war.

But petty? I can't agree.

"How long would this temporary accommodation last? She isn't going to resign, and since most of the Kentucky legislature is on her side, she won't be impeached. "

Let's just chalk that up as another win for Jesus, who, apparently, hates the Constitution.

Well, lets review. The judge ordered Ms Davis released this afternoon. His order says that he is satisfied that Rowan County is in compliance, and indded the deputy clerks are issuing valid marriage licenses to all comers.

But nothing has changed since a week ago. Bunning J. could have made this identical order a week ago, the outcome would have been I-Dentical, and no need to put this silly woman in jail. The deputy clerks declared thenselves willing at the contempt hearing.

Instead, he chose to toss her in Stripe City, and in the most public and excessive ways possible. Ankle chains? Really? And in so doing, managed to turn this rather-silly woman into a Martyr, attracting Presidential hopefuls to her aid, and giving her and her silly sky-worshipping supporters billions of dollars of free publicity. It's just plain stupid. Today's fait-accompli order would have stopped it all dead in its tracks and we'd never have heard another word about it.

It's almost like, oh, I don't know, this story was actually ginned up to take our minds off something else - like, oh, perhaps the stunning failures presently playing out in the Middle East. Doesn't it strike you as odd that this story has been topping the news for a week now? Some no-account county in Kentucky? Really?

As to all the suppositions and what-ifs about what the state legislature or the voters might or might not do - I think not. After all, the entire rest of the srate is issuing marriage licenses with no issues, it would appear that the voters Just Don't Care That Much.

Regarding 'never ask a question . . ', let me rephrase. In debate or contention, never ask a question of fact to which you do not know the answer. If you question the factual basis of what someone else says, and they turn out to be right, you just look silly. Do you suppose I typed that 20-mile comment without checking first? If course I didn't. One of the few good habits taught in law school.

llater,

llamas

But nothing has changed since a week ago. Bunning J. could have made this identical order a week ago, the outcome would have been I-Dentical, and no need to put this silly woman in jail. The deputy clerks declared thenselves willing at the contempt hearing.

First, if you're in contempt of court, there has to be a penalty, end of discussion. He probably could have fined her, but her supporters doubtless would have paid it. In fact, Judge Bunning declared that that was precisely why he didn't fine her.

So, with the punishment of fines being effectively ruled out as any kind of punishment/deterrent, what do you suggest the judge do? Let her just be in contempt without consequence?

Moreover, what kind of hold does she have over her staff? Can she hire/fire them? Can she order them not to issue marriage licenses and fire them for noncompliance?

And I would maintain that those seeking marriage licenses should not be inconvenienced. You consider it a petty slight to arrive at the Clerk's office, only to be rebuffed because of the Clerk's puritanical sensibilities, then get back in the car and go twenty miles away to another Clerk's office, who may or may not have the same objections?

And why shouldn't they refuse at the other Clerk's office? You seem to think they should be allowed to thumb their nose at the law without consequence, so why the hell not? Let the whole state of the Kentucky flip the bird at SCOTUS.

I get the feeling we'll soon learn that this stupid woman's jail cell has a revolving door.

Isab, I'm with you. If you sign up to do a job, either do it or go find another job. If you want to challenge existing law, start campaigning or lobbying. For elected officials to simply ignore laws they don't like breeds disrespect for the law, and it goes double when they aren't prosecuted or impeached for it.

A place I worked at, some time ago, was a contractor that did mostly military work. They hired an engineer who didn't bother to tell anyone until after he was hired that his ethics prohibited him from working on military projects. He was basically allowed to pick and choose what work he would do, sometimes displacing other people from their jobs and pushing them into less desirable assignments. It caused a lot of resentment among the staff. (I don't know how the situation ultimately resolved, because I was already planning to leave that company, and I found another job about two months later.)

I'm for that too CD as long as it is applied across the board. I am sick and tired of the one rule for me and another rule for thee concept. I am sick and tired of special groups and protected classes. We are all equal citizens together or the nation is dead and it's time for me and my tribe to fight for our and only our best interests.

Absolutely, Ben. Kim Davis should not be allowed to flout the law, any more than the San Francisco city government should be able to flout the immigratoin laws.

There are cab drivers in Minneapolis who won't carry passengers carrying alcohol

Not just Minneapolis. I called a cab once at midday to go to a BBQ and the driver who showed up refused to take me because I was carrying a sixpack. This in Melbourne, Australia.

Fortunately it seems to be rare here.