It gives one hope in the future knowing that Columbia's Mattress Maiden, the Yalie who screams "F*ck You" & "Shut up" at a man for valuing the 1st Amendment, and Mizzou grads who go on hunger strikes over hoax incidents, will make more than people who can actually do or make something.

Are we talking about education in the classical sense, or attendance at an institution that will award a certificate that Griggs vs Duke Power has made a substitute for aptitude tests that enable one to enter certain career fields?

I don´t think the USA hires many welders anymore, we seem to have outsourced industry. Maybe welding old rusty carparts in Detroit into sculptures? But this requires a knowledge of philosophy or at least an interest in sociology and the arts.

Rubio is only wrong if the time and money spent on the Philosophy degree are ignored in the calculation. I'll take another guess that the mid career median salary of a philosophy graduate includes those of many professionals not working in the field - i.e. not teaching philosophy. None of which disproves the values of philosophers or welders.

Rubio was trying to make the larger point that not everyone needs to or should go to college. There are many jobs that pay quite well for graduates of vocational programs. Here in the mid west employers are lamenting a lack of machinists, tool makers, and other skilled employees.

In this case, Ethan Epstein is an internet troll seeking to say, "See, I got to show how superior I am."

If by "philosophers" he means "(fill in the blank here) race/gender studies PhDs" then he might be on to something.

That said, people in those lines of higher education are not cut out to be welders. There are objective standards to be met, and the work tends to be hot and nasty, in conditions that can be miserable.

But we do need janitors...

I don´t think the USA hires many welders anymore

Every oil field needs welders who are capable of laying down a good, reliable bead. If you have the skillz, you can high tail it to North Dakota and be eyeball deep in work.

They had been getting a normal 40 hours a week. And as much overtime as they could stand. With gas prices down, that may not be so true any more. But even if the oil fields shut down, the US shipyards will put you to work.

If you can get skillz, you won't be stuck in a minimum wage job for very long.

Actually IRA North Dakota has largely shut down. The low prices pushed by the Saudis has hit the oil industry pretty hard. Most Houston based drilling companies are looking at a 50% reduction in work force.

There is still plenty of work for skilled welders and machinists. You are just off on location.

I think his general point was going to college just to study something you find interesting but may not be practical (and that may put you way in debt), and then bitching about your standard of living afterward, is ridiculous. And it is.

momof4: It's similar to Romney's "binders full of women" statement during one of the debates with Obama. He was trying to make a point that a lot of women were interested in being part of a Republican administration, but everyone just got swept up in his phrasing.

"According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the median annual salary of a mid-career American welder is $37,000 a year. The median starting of a philosophy graduate, meanwhile, is $39,000 a year, according to Payscale. The mid-career median salary of a philosophy graduate, meanwhile, tops $80,000 annually. That's right: Contrary to Rubio's assertion, philosophy majors make twice as much as welders."

More evidence that we are totally fucked as a country.

However this analysis is comparing apples to oranges.

It doesn't factor in that a lot of University/government jobs for philosophy majors are in high cost, high tax urban areas, while a lot of welding jobs are in low cost rural manufacturing areas.

I doubt if being a an untenured adjunct Philosophy professor at Standford buys you very upscale digs compared to a welder in rural Texas.

If you are willing to travel and weld patches on pipe with explosive contents (oil and gas typically) you can make a six figure income with a rural cost of living.

All of it involves trade offs. Are you willing to travel? Are you willing to work in a difficult environment? Any old college degree doesn't mean much today. And then there is the cost of living issue. Making $50k in LA is the same as making $35k in Dallas.

But the numbers quoted are accurate if meaningless. Philosophy grads start around $39k. But almost none of them are working in philosophy. Honestly I don't know where they end up. I do know the vast majority of psychologists end up as actuaries in the insurance industry. The psychology part of their degree is typically financially worthless. But the statistics classes are where they bring value.

The bigger issue for me is "At its best, education makes us (as the term liberal arts implies) free men and women, and better citizens." This is a blatant lie.

1. The majority of people going to college are there for economic reasons.
2. 'At it's best' is key. I can also say 'At it's best cannibalism makes us better citizens'. Comparing only the best of the best is meaningless. Does anyone here believe that the majority of liberal arts graduates are better citizens than when they enrolled? I know plenty of us recognize they are actually worse off due to the miseducation they received.
3. If citizenship or goodness is the purpose of a college degree, why is the federal government subsidizing it? If you want a degree in the sexual habits of gnats, hey good for you. Now pay for it yourself. If the point of a liberal arts degree is freedom you will be ten times as free without that crushing debt burden.

So, the next time your pipes burst, call a philosopher and then tell me he should make more than a welder.

"He was a dreamer, a thinker, a speculative philosopher... or, as his wife would have it, an idiot." ~ Douglas Adams

Friend of mine has a philosophy degree, and then went and got an AA in turbine maintenance. Makes *very* good money 2 years in, and is on the fast track to either engineering and design, or management.

I'm pretty sure that it's the liberal arts degree that is vaulting him over the other techs with that same AA degree. Not because someone says 'Oooooh! A liberal arts degree too!' but rather that beyond knowing a valuable trade, he has been through a rigorous program on how to think well.

I have no idea what a BA in philosophy qualifies one to do, other than apply to grad school and/or make my latte.

Politicians and other know-it-alls love to use the example of either plumbers or welders as "trades that make more than *fill-in-the-blank-liberal-arts-degree*. What the trades make is all over the map, just like income can vary greatly for "mid-career philosophy majors." A pipe welder in the country doesn't make what an oilfield worker does. Oilfield work is hard and dangerous and in isolated locations, and housing costs can be very high.

My dad was a plumber, and so was my uncle. My uncle is a hard worker and my dad is a lazy alcoholic asshole with a bad attitude. So while they are both Master Plumbers, my uncle owns a big house on the lake and is in a supervisory position at a very large company that services the entire region encompassing Austin and San Antonio. Meanwhile, Dad never wanted to take orders from anyone he deemed "beneath" him and bounced from job to job, so I had the privilege of growing up as the only white girl in the trailer park.

My husband and his partner have a steel and demolition business and are about to move into landscape services as well. The hubs is a welder, but he's not typically doing any welding at this point. The certified, highly skilled welders that work for the company make a little over $50,000 a year doing commercial stuff and high-end residential stuff. They're generally under 35. These are not the guys you would hire to do your livestock pen. The guys who come in to do large-scale stuff (like structural work at a hospital) get significantly more.

So, these trades can provide a good living, but it really depends on HOW skilled they are, how hard they work, what their concentrations are, where they work, and where they live. My husband didn't make sh*t when he worked for other people's steel companies. Now he does well. And he and his partner have taken that foundation and expanded the business and invested in equipment (do you know how quickly a $60k skid steer pays for itself in labor costs?)and got HUB certified.

So basically telling us that someone is a "plumber" or a "welder" doesn't tell us much at all about what they're capable of earning. It's all about the individual.

"At its best, education makes us (as the term liberal arts implies) free men and women, and better citizens."
Pfft. What a pompous twit.

I should also add that these guys who are making around $50k in their twenties are some of the better-payed welders in Austin. The guys working for many of the very large steel outfits around central Texas make more like $11-$15/hour. I believe it's less in San Antonio (but life is cheaper there, in general.) You can only go so far selling your own labor, unless you're in an oilfield or offshore. Once you start buying your own equipment, and show some leadership capability or sales ability, doors open up. The initial investment that we made in a five-year-old F250 and a used Miller Welder three years ago has made all the difference in the world. (And my husband was a liberal arts major when he was in college.)

"At its best, education makes us (as the term liberal arts implies) free men and women, and better citizens." Pfft. What a pompous twit. ~ Posted by: ahw at November 11, 2015 10:34 AM

A liberal arts education is designed to give a framework in philosophy, western civilization, economics, history, language, arts, and morals.

That's why most colleges require 2 years of liberal arts education before you start studying your major.

Unfortunately, most colleges have now watered down that liberal arts education to the point of irrelevancy by counting classes in television watching, ethnic or gender grievance studies, or "The Simpsons" as the same as studying the classics, arts, economics, literature, anthropology, basic sciences, logic, etc.

Too many students come out of their first two years of college less educated than they were when they went in - but far angrier and more malleable, easier for the grievance mongers to manipulate.

My stepson started doing a bit of welding on the side at his manufacturing job, to pick up a few extra hours. They found out he was good at it, and now he spends more time welding than at his regular job. Factories are constantly in need of welding to repair broken machinery and structures.

And I will say that, if one is willing to expand the definition of "philosopher" to include humanities, pol-sci and government majors, Rubio's statement is largely true. Not that there aren't any jobs at all in the humanities, but there aren't nearly enough for all of the humanities grads colleges are cranking out. Few of the people who graduate with a humanities degree are working in their field, or in any field that pays consummate with what you expect to make with a college degree. As for the pol-sci types, they have the ability to wield political power to create high-paying public-sector jobs for themselves. That needs to have a stake put in it.

I assume the writer's figure for philosophy majors refers to the salaries of the ones that have jobs in universities' philosophy departments, and not the large majority who have discovered that both those jobs are taken and they're stuck waiting tables.

Meanwhile jobs as welders are going begging -- ask Mike Rowe.

'A liberal arts education ONCE WAS designed to give a framework in philosophy, western civilization, economics, history, language, arts, and morals.'

A small but vital correction Conan. I know it's a nit, but I've see that false is too many times and it jumped off the screen and slapped my momma. I had to retaliate.

So let's hand off the microphone to the 800 pound gorilla in the room, can we get a round of applause?

Some Kidd [yeah his parents had a sense of humor] from Flyover Country USA has decent enough grades in High School... and might be able to go to the state college, with a buncha loans...

Or he can go to the local community college, and get into a welding training class, and prolly not have to take any loans...
The local manufacturing people have a job fair at school, and specifically ask the instructors for skills... and they say: "well, Some Kidd is pretty smart, conscientious, and works very hard...

Manufacturer offers some on the job training and some tuition reimbursement to Some...

And at 19 he's working a full time job making X thing. The next year, he gets a cert for aluminum welding, and take a liking to the friction stir weld machine.
2 years later, they have Kidd working on job shop stuff that will end up at NASA...

And THEN the big boys come knocking. How would you like to FSW structures on a space ship?
This guy is out there. @28 he just bought his first house, and such... maybe he'll get married eventually... but for now he is laying money by, taking care of his parents a bit...

And when that crew vehicle heads for space, in the spot behind that panels where nobody will really see it, is Some Kidd's signature and prayer for a good flight.

And those college boys riding that candle entrust their lives to a guy with the skill to make metal into something that is almost of a single piece, strong and light.

Not every welder gets this chance, true. Some guys weld the stairs together that allow you to escape your building in an emergency... or repair the crossing gates on your local rail line. Some will never make tons of money, and some will become entrepreneurs and hire other welders and so forth.

Philosopher grads can do what most BA's can do... since there aren't a lot of jobs for "philosopher" that don't involve being a professor... and there are precious few professor jobs out there that don't involve being a lowly adjunct. Maybe they should try and see what THAT pays. It' ain't 80K a year. I'ma guess that most Phil grads are in corporate America, their degree only handy in getting in the door, and their brains handy for figuring out how to do other things.

That all ignores that fact that some people are good students, and some aren't, some are good with their hands, and some aren't... and everyone has to make a go of the situation they find themselves in, and not everyone can afford to go to college.

Find me a philosopher who is honest enough to discuss what exactly a philosopher who is not a professor does all day.
I'm betting you will find a person that used that credential to get a job, and is getting the bump in pay that most college credentials get you...

And some people can get them, and some can't... but if EVERYONE got degrees, they would be worthless. Just a VERY expensive high school diploma... is that what we really want.
Is it even feasible?

At its best, education makes us (as the term liberal arts implies) free men and women, and better citizens.

Really? Cause as far as I can tell Liberal Arts majors are the one screaming for people to get fired when they dont like you opinion

Good ol' Rubio, encouraging young Americans to study welding instead of millennia of human thought on idiotic subjects like morality, existence, and God.

That should make us competitive with Chinese welders, at least, assuming we can all live on a few yuan every month.

A small but vital correction Conan. I know it's a nit, but I've see that false is too many times and it jumped off the screen and slapped my momma. I had to retaliate. ~ Posted by: Ben at November 11, 2015 11:40 AM

Ben, the failure of most colleges to provide an actual liberal arts education is why I followed that up with "Unfortunately, most colleges have now watered down that liberal arts education to the point of irrelevancy...." No correction needed.

And what the hell kind of sentence is "I've see that false is too many times and it jumped off the screen and slapped my momma?" A "false is" jumped off the screen and slapped your momma? Guess it depends on the meaning of "is" - false or not.

I'd pick that nit and post a vital correction for you, but ... damn.

==============================

Because Rubio wasn't just wrong in his first principles: He was wrong on the facts. For it turns out that philosophers, in fact, make significantly more money than welders.

This survey covers people "with only a bachelor's degree" so it excludes professors (PhD), lawyers, and MBAs with a philosophy undergraduate degree.

I wonder in what fields those philosophy undergrads are working and how they trained for them. And what schools they attended. After all, how many people go to Cal-State Hayward for a philosophy degree vs. how many go to Harvard for one. And what family connections they had - if you're not in the 1%, you get a skill degree, but if you are, you get a crib degree and go to work for Daddy's banker friend.

A liberal arts degree prepares one for working with information and eschews the more vocationally-oriented training of skill degree programs like medicine, business, and engineering.

It is unlikely that a vocational school will offer symposia on Plato and Aristotle, so a welder may not have an opportunity to pursue a pure knowledge education at the same school at which he learns welding.

The liberal arts education is intended to let every student live the life of the mind, even if only for a little while and to provide him with a basis of knowledge with which he can question authority and render a well-considered judgement as a citizen of a free society.

==============================

Rubio is echoing Obama in his studied show of advocating learning a trade ahead of getting a liberal arts education:

"[A] lot of young people no longer see the trades and skilled manufacturing as a viable career. But I promise you, folks can make a lot more, potentially, with skilled manufacturing or the trades than they might with an art history degree. Now, nothing wrong with an art history degree -- I love art history. So I don't want to get a bunch of emails from everybody. I'm just saying you can make a really good living and have a great career without getting a four-year college education as long as you get the skills and the training that you need."

That Art History degree has a median mid-career salary of $64,900.

After all, we can't have too many voters having learned to question authority and to strive to uncover the truth. We need sheep, not thinkers.

Really? Cause as far as I can tell Liberal Arts majors are the one screaming for people to get fired when they dont like you opinion ~ Posted by: lujlp at November 11, 2015 2:23 PM

That's the aforementioned failure of most college to provide an actual liberal arts education.

Chances are the majors to which you are referring are the ones that are heavily loaded with grievance studies classes taught by hippie professors with an ax to grind.

"A liberal arts education ONCE WAS designed to give a framework in philosophy, western civilization, economics, history, language, arts, and morals."

You know what? If liberal arts are to be rescued, I think it's going to have to be us STEM folks who do most of it. Who else is going to?

A friend from high school has a philosophy degree and makes decent money ($60K).........as a grounds maintenance supervisor at a golf course.

I went to a vocational school for medical transcription when I graduated high school. I was making $70K-$80K a year working for a service with multiple hospital accounts. Then the company merged with another and started outsourcing to India so we all made minimum wage. I got a job in a hospital and was averaging $30 an hour. I then got downsized out of that job thanks to speech recognition and electronic medical record software making doctors do their own notes with fill in the blank templates. I moved on over to urgent care registration and patient triage at $20 an hour and worked up to $25 an hour before being downsized out of that and replaced with two self check-in kiosks. I now don't work at all (SAHM) and will need to go through another vocational program or more formal schooling for a decent paying job in the future. What sucks is being told by the local schools that I would need to retake all the classes I took when getting my Associate from the vocational school because the credits were more than seven years old. At least my husband makes good money so I don't need to work or worry about figuring out a new career path and schooling options right now.

I wonder in what fields those philosophy undergrads are working and how they trained for them. And what schools they attended. After all, how many people go to Cal-State Hayward for a philosophy degree vs. how many go to Harvard for one. And what family connections they had - if you're not in the 1%, you get a skill degree, but if you are, you get a crib degree and go to work for Daddy's banker friend. ~ Posted by: Conan the Grammarian at November 11, 2015 2:30 PM

And where they work. Did the government adjust for local cost of living when tabulating the results of the survey?

$60,000 in Des Moines, Iowa is good money. In San Francisco, you'd need to make $109,000 to have the same lifestyle ($60,000 in SF is equivalent to $32,000 in Des Moines).

As long as we're using special pleadings to support AND condemn Rubio for this, let us remember the multiple times Amy has noted bus drivers and other public employees bringing six figures home playing the OT rules game.

I can tell you this: no Bechtel certified welder has lacked for work. Who needs a philosopher - today?

You want to impress me with your firm grasp of economics, point out that all workers sell their own labor, intellectual or not, and that employers have no duty whatsoever to provide anything but good measure for your work. Remind me that corporations aren't all multinationals, and that they have a charter which says my opinion has no value in setting the salary of their officers.

And remind us all that the market will determine the real worth of your profession, no matter what government does to inflate it.

One more. In comparing the median salaries of philosophy majors vs. welders, were the unemployed philosophy majors included in the the Payscale data?

Salary is not the only question to be asked. What is the unemployment rate of welders vs. philosophy majors?

For welders, solderers, and brazzers, the unemployment rate is 6.9%.

For philosophy majors, the unemployment rate is 9.2%.

In a 2012 Forbes article on the worst majors for job prospects, philosophy came in 4th, just ahead of a generic liberal arts degree and behind anthropology and visual arts.

"And what the hell kind of sentence is "I've see that false is too many times and it jumped off the screen and slapped my momma?" A "false is" jumped off the screen and slapped your momma? Guess it depends on the meaning of "is" - false or not."

Should have been 'seen' not see. I don't know if the is should have been 'is'. It referred to the replaced word. And yes, that lying 'is' jumped right off the screen. The whole sentence is boiler plate. Which is why you repudiated it right after you wrote it. Of course you then repeated it in another post. As I said, boilerplate.

I'm ok with talking about what a liberal arts degree should be. I'm ok with saying what it once was. But the reality is a current liberal arts degree is not designed to give a framework in philosophy, western civilization, economics, history, language, arts, and morals. German nihilists and hippy morons have replaced it with an education in poor reasoning and demagoguery.

You are correct that the BLS data is not corrected for cost of living or parent's socioeconomics. Interestingly the U of Maryland offers a list of where their BS philosophy grads go.
1. Lawyer.
2. Business unrelated to their degree. And honestly it looks like the degree was a waste of money.
3. Government. And even here it looks like half of the entries are lawyers (AG, General Council and such)
4. Profs

http://www.philosophy.umd.edu/sites/philosophy.umd.edu/files/umd-phil-career-stats.pdf

So if you want to be a lawyer or just to study for fun UofM's philosophy program may be for you. If you want a career outside of law it looks like a bad choice.

All the philosophy majors I knew intended to go onto law school to become a lawyer -- and all either did, didn't graduate with that major or I lost touch with them. There were some that had it as minor or second major.

I was discussing what I had heard about welders with a friend and his son (a welder). The son said the report about a huge lack of welders was both true and false. There was certain specialties that there was a definite lack of welders. For the common tasks there was ample supply...and nothing for the person just starting out.

Sort of similar, back when the economy was really bad I was taking to one of my brother's friends. The friend told us that emergency fix/drain backed up, etc. market was covered 95% by 4 large companies. So if you were a plumber in that area you had to get on with a contractor building homes or get hired by one of those 4...which paid OK but not great.

And yes, that lying 'is' jumped right off the screen.

Well, I hope your momma's okay.

And I agree with you that the liberal arts degree is not what it once was, nor is it what it should be. And I also agree that the reasoning skills of most liberal arts majors are pretty poor. Talking to them is like arguing evolution with an evangelical, they can't argue and refuse to consider any position but their own, which they can't defend with a logical argument.

I think Rubio had a good point that was wrecked by media nitpicking. There are jobs for those who don't want to get a college degree, but even those jobs require the acquisition of some higher-than-high-school skills.

On a summer job, I once worked with a guy who knew college was not for him. So, he lined up a union warehouse job through his uncle. He had to wait until he turned 21 before he could started, but was working at this job on the skills he would need when he took that job. Another friend dropped out of high school and took carpentry classes at the local junior college. He now owns his own contracting company and has several high school graduates working for him, maybe even a philosophy major or two. Opportunities are out there - if you're willing to work for them.

And the world does need welders more than philosophers. It does need a few philosophers now and again; and maybe even a few philosophical welders. If we all sat around navel gazing, no work would ever get done.

The competing definitions were: A welder is one who welds. A philosopher is one who has a degree in philosophy.
I have a degree in psychology--needed a degree for OCS and there wasn't much math--and have done reasonably well in sales. My father had a degree in economics and did well in sales.
Could be we both graduated from Chatahoochee High, aka the Benning School for Boys that did the trick.
Point is, the definition duel is rigged.

Mom is fine Conan. It was just a little slap. What is more amazing is mom wasn't here at the time. You should have seen that 'is' running down the highway. Zipping around cars. It was a sight to see. ;)

Philosophy and logic are important. As is formal ethics. They even have real world implications and are quite useful for those of us not rich enough to get lost in the beauty of belly buttons. But schools don't have a monopoly on philosophy. And getting a degree in philosophy is often less educational than self directed education.

And self directed is quite a bit cheaper.

Of course CNN has ahold of this. It is important to assure us all that the educated are superior to us huddled masses, and that no Republican is ever right.

Meanwhile, AR-15s are on sale at many vendors. Get yours before the election doubles their price!

"So, the next time your pipes burst, call a philosopher and then tell me he should make more than a welder."

Or call a plumber for that plumbing job instead of a welder, much like you would call an electrician for electrical work and attend a philosophy class or read a book when you wanted information on philosophy.

I know, I know. It's obvious, right?

Or call a plumber for that plumbing job instead of a welder.... ~ Posted by: Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at November 12, 2015 12:15 PM

And when the plumber gets there and says you need a welder, will you call a philosopher?

I used the plumbing problem as an example because "the next time your wrought iron railing breaks" just doesn't convey the same sense of urgency as pipes bursting.

The last time I needed the services of a philosopher at 3 AM, I was a college sophomore.