Honest About Islam
Dr. Nabeel Qureshi writes in USA today about the role of the Quran and Hadith (the tales of Mohammed's violent, psychopathic actions, which are to be emulated) in inspiring the slaughter in Belgium:
As a Muslim growing up in the United States, I was taught by my imams and the community around me that Islam is a religion of peace. ...Yet as I began to investigate the Quran and the traditions of Muhammad's life for myself in college, I found to my genuine surprise that the pages of Islamic history are filled with violence.
...As a young Muslim boy growing up in the 1980s and 1990s, it was impossible for me to look up a hadith unless I traveled to an Islamic library, something I would have never thought to do. For all intents and purposes, if I wanted to know about the traditions of Muhammad, I had to ask imams or elders in my tradition of Islam. That is no longer the case today. Just as radical Islamists may spread their message far and wide online, so, too, the Internet has made the traditions of Muhammad readily available for whoever wishes to look them up, even in English. When everyday Muslims investigate the Quran and hadith for themselves, bypassing centuries of tradition and their imams' interpretations, they are confronted with the reality of violent jihad in the very foundations of their faith.
The Quran itself reveals a trajectory of jihad reflected in the almost 23 years of Muhammad's prophetic career. As I demonstrate carefully in my book, Answering Jihad: A Better Way Forward, starting with peaceful teachings and proclamations of monotheism, Muhammad's message featured violence with increasing intensity, culminating in surah 9, chronologically the last major chapter of the Quran, and its most expansively violent teaching. Throughout history, Muslim theologians have understood and taught this progression, that the message of the Quran culminates in its ninth chapter.
The later verses of the Quran "abrogate" -- erase -- the earlier ones, which is why the peacey-weacey ones are basically just there for show. What matters -- for action, that is -- is all the "death to the Jews and Christians!" stuff.
Also, unlike the Bible, the Quran is to be taken literally, as the word of Allah, and is not to be questioned. And horrible, lying, raping, plundering, enslaving, mass-murdering Mohammed is to be emulated by Muslims. (As an atheist and a non-violent person, I have no problem if anyone wants to emulate Jesus and be all "feed the poor!" "Heal the sick!")
Back to lovely Surah 9:
Surah 9 is a command to disavow all treaties with polytheists and to subjugate Jews and Christians (9.29) so that Islam may "prevail over all religions" (9.33). It is fair to wonder whether any non-Muslims in the world are immune from being attacked, subdued or assimilated under this command. Muslims must fight, according to this final chapter of the Quran, and if they do not, then their faith is called into question and they are counted among the hypocrites (9.44-45). If they do fight, they are promised one of two rewards, either spoils of war or heaven through martyrdom. Allah has made a bargain with the mujahid who obeys: Kill or be killed in battle, and paradise awaits (9.111).Muslim thought leaders agree that the Quran promotes such violence. Maajid Nawaz, co-founder of the Quilliam Foundation in the United Kingdom, has said, "We Muslims must admit there are challenging Koranic passages that require reinterpretation today. ... Only by rejecting vacuous literalism are we able to condemn, in principle, ISIS-style slavery, beheading, lashing, amputation & other medieval practices forever (all of which are in the Quran). ... Reformers either win, and get religion-neutral politics, or lose, and get ISIL-style theocracy." In other words, Muslims must depart from the literal reading of the Quran in order to create a jihad-free Islamic world.
This is not at all to say that most Muslims are violent. The vast majority of Muslims do not live their lives based on chapter 9 of the Quran or on the books of jihad in the hadith. My point is not to question the faith of such Muslims nor to imply that radical Muslims are the true Muslims. Rather, I simply want to make clear that while ISIL may lure youth through a variety of methods, it radicalizes them primarily by urging them to follow the literal teachings of the Quran and the hadith, interpreted consistently and in light of the violent trajectory of early Islam. As long as the Islamic world focuses on its foundational texts, we will continue to see violent jihadi movements.
A commenter, Andy Rus, at USA Today:
Regardless of how you reconcile Isalm as a peaceful religion, it is not. People can be peaceful, but a religion that commands death and destruction of any non believer is a propaganda machine for evil. This is not the dark ages. Year upon year, for hundreds of years, this peacful religion has killed and destroyed, in Muhammads name, picking and choosing its reasons for violence to acheive an Islamic state, based on writings of a long different time.
> Regardless of how you reconcile
> Isalm as a peaceful religion,
> it is not.
So what? Who gives a fuck?
What are you going to do?
Crid at March 24, 2016 1:04 AM
Crid,
Longer than normal post so ignore as you wish.
About all one can do is to point out the inconsistency of another's logic which is why most young people start off w/"Your POV is invalid.".
As w/the prior post logic is easily ignored UNLESS the other party is curious enough to at least consider that JUST MAYBE the air you waste spewing such hatred has more value than just blowing up balloons. The other party has to do the work (thinking).
As to who gives a fuck?
Anyone that prefers a peaceful resolution to an opposing POV. Most colleges do not promote this but in real life (other than 'da hood, organizations or an Islamic country) this is the preferred/expected reasoning.
What can one do?
Be in their face in a quiet persistent and sometimes sarcastic manner. You can't kill 'em all even if you wanted to.
Besides, it's not worth the cost as long as they leave you and yours alone. Which is the real problem.
They've decided we are fair game and our fearless leader won't kill the snake's nest in a quick violent ruthless manner. (Inspires hate but leaders get the message which is "It's not worth the cost to die quickly for Islam and achieve nothing.") .
Truly most countries/leaders want to be left alone to do with their country's riches as they wish.
Those that do not or decide it's your riches they want need to be destroyed quickly regardless of civilian costs as they will not respond to logic or bargaining. They simply want you to die.
Seriously Crid. People do not think so you have to be persistent w/simple statements asking that they prove you wrong. That separates the sheep from the wolves.
You can deal w/wolves by showing them it's not worth the cost, making sure they have enough food (hopefully in their own territory and not your pasture), and isolation.
Sheep are going to be led by wolves/guard dogs so they will be herded wherever you/someone want them and sheep do not care if the hand that protects them also slaughters them. They are sheep after all.
Bob in Texas at March 24, 2016 5:20 AM
As to who gives a fuck?
Anyone that prefers a peaceful resolution to an opposing POV.
The more we put out what are the realities of Islam, the more decent people who identify as Muslim -- and others -- are likely to stand up against this ideology and possibly stand for reform.
Many Muslims have little or no idea of the barbarism their religion actually demands of them and other Muslims. It's time they learned.
On a wide scale.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2016 6:06 AM
This is not at all to say that most Muslims are violent. The vast majority of Muslims do not live their lives based on chapter 9 of the Quran or on the books of jihad in the hadith. My point is not to question the faith of such Muslims
Oh, but ISIS will.
They will call them apostates, unless they join the cause. And do tell, what happens to apostates from the faith?
Oh, yeah, that's right, they're put to death.
Thus the reason for my statement that there are three kinds of Muslims: those who have examined the Quran and found it lacking (apostates), those who have examined the Quran and embraced all of its dictates (jihadis), and those who have not examined the Quran closely.
That latter category are the vast pool from which the jihadi's will draw their numbers from. And once they see the apostates put to death, they'll lean more towards the jihadi's point of view than not.
What are you going to do?
Stand against them. And when they whine that I'm an islamaphobe I'll calmly ask which of my fears are irrational. And when they attack me by other means, I'll defend myself the best that I can.
May Allah grant me victory over my enemies.
I R A Darth Aggie at March 24, 2016 6:39 AM
The statistics coupled with their large population group show me that their 'leaders' need to be show that fear of our might and willingness to use that might is a GOOD thing. The rest (even though large in numbers) go where led.
"And this number pales in comparison to global Muslim population figures. According to World Public Opinion (2009) at the University of Maryland, 61 percent of Egyptians, 32 percent of Indonesians, 41 percent of Pakistanis, 38 percent of Moroccans, 83 percent of Palestinians, 62 percent of Jordanians, and 42 percent of Turks appear to endorse or sympathise with attacks on Americans or American groups."
"A 2013 study found that 16 percent of young Muslims in Belgium believed that state terrorism is "acceptable," while 12 percent of young Muslims in Britain said that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified.
Pew Research from 2007 found that 26 percent of young Muslims in America believed suicide bombings are justified, with 35 percent in Britain, 42 percent in France, 22 percent in Germany, and 29 percent in Spain feeling the same way."
http://www.meforum.org/5917/young-muslims-ticking-timebomb
Bob in Texas at March 24, 2016 7:07 AM
"The more we put out what are the realities of Islam, the more decent people who identify as Muslim -- and others -- are likely to stand up against this ideology and possibly stand for reform."
Dream on. This is what Crid has been trying to tell you for years now. 99 percent of the adherents of Islam, and most of the problem ones are beyond the influence of both American media (the chattering classes) AND are impervious to any kind of reformation.
The Foot soldiers of Isis for the most part come from primative villages with no lights, no plumbing, no running water AND they can't read.
Their local imam is singing them the same siren song of a better life much as the communists did in Russia in 1917.
The radical Muslims are way beyond reason, and the rest are playing the part of useful idiots. (Or they are doing what they can to save their own skins when the radical Islamists turn on them)
Since this scenario has been repeated in history at least a thousand times, I am not sure why anyone would expect a different outcome.
Real bravery is in pretty short supply in the human race. We are genetically selected to save our own skins and not to die standing up to terrorists.
Even low IQ *moderate* Muslims understand this.
Appeals to reason don't work, even when you are dealing with reasonable people.
There is exactly NOTHING that can be done about radical Islam that involves talking.
There are some solutions but they are nasty and brutal. You destroy their will to fight, which usually happens when you kill enough of them.
And that only lasts for about a generation unless you are prepared to impose civilization through a long term semi permanent occupation.
Isab at March 24, 2016 9:02 AM
There are some solutions but they are nasty and brutal. You destroy their will to fight, which usually happens when you kill enough of them.
And that's pretty much the only solution. Because how does one reform the literal words of Allah?
You can't. Not without flattening one of the holy sites of Islam. Which Allah is supposed to be able to protect from all comers.
I R A Darth Aggie at March 24, 2016 9:56 AM
Yeahyeah... so what you're going to do again is what, exactly?
...Beyond smugly masturbating with the brine of your own tears, I mean?
> You can't kill 'em all even if
> you wanted to.
Bob, that's cocksuckingly insane.
There are 1.6 billion Muslims on this planet pursuing their lives in unremarkable comity, if not the richest grooming of modernity (the latter being, I contend, the cause of the bad behavior from a few million of the rest). I can't imagine that the relative proportions for any other cosmology, including Christianity or atheism, could be any kinder... And you don't have the power to tidy up the beloved texts for those systems of belief, either.
You smirk about murdering a quarter of the human race as if the problem was merely practical.... Not 'nuff bullets! Har har!
So we're left to imagine what spending time with you is like.
...But then you double down, affirming that a child's witless & shallow ironies —"in your face" at dinnertime, Mr. Breadwinner— are the path to salvation.
And then we're left to distinguish your approach to these matters from that of the broken teacups at Emory this week, whose souls were thrashed a by political chalk on a campus sidewalk.
Three years ago a casual internet aphorist changed my life with this. I instantly knew it was a powerful tool, because its blade is so dangerously honed: It'll hack at the reader no less than his subjects of observation.
But boy, does it clear the forest. You guys say these things because you think they flatter you. But it's an anonymous forum, so you're not putting much effort into it.
Carolla, hardly our planet's most articulate personage, spent ten years on a radio show listening to addled teens talk about problems with drugs and sex and everything else, and then said this: "I'm convinced that stupid people confuse themselves." Time and again a kid would build his understanding of something around such a poorly-worded description of the context that he was doomed to failure... And the talk-show hosts would have a few seconds to clear things up.
That's what comes to mind when you make jokes about a "fearless leader." Who *exactly* is the target of your sarcasm? Which perspective do you presume to demean? Yeah, sure... Obama has never needed or deployed a single instant of courage across his torpid little lifetime. But who was counting on him for "leadership"? If you were thoughtfully resisting that kind of presumption, endemic as it is the population for which you'll chirp in such violent disdain, your approach to the entire topic would be different.
Well, that was fun, but there's no time to proofread or spank the rest of the children, because I have to go to work.
But I'd be remiss to note that even Bob's half-hearted and third-witted suggestion described much more activity in response to Islam than Amy has ever offered.
Okay Dahlings! Until next time!
Crid at March 24, 2016 11:18 AM
Fucked up the best part.
This is the aphorism of my dreams, the bestest tweet like, evar.
Crid at March 24, 2016 11:21 AM
So what?
It is not a peaceful religion. Yet people who should know better, and have influence, continue to claim it is.
Who gives a fuck?
Me. And every other anal retentive in the world that prefers to hear truth and facts - not someone's fantasy.
What are you going to do?
Like Amy, state the truth.
Dave at March 24, 2016 1:43 PM
"It is not a peaceful religion. Yet people who should know better, and have influence, continue to claim it is."
Oh....my......god. A number of people don't share your mouth frothing belief that Islam is the root cause of all the terrorism, and somewhat naïvely state that "Islam is the religion of Peace"
(Read a little history you will find that even Buddists resort to war and terrorism if they believe their cause merits it)
Instead many of us look at 1.6 billion Muslims the vast majority of which have never committed a terrorist act, and think maybe, just maybe we should be fighting terrorists, and terrorism, as opposed to ranting and raving about a *book*
This so resembles the anti gun nuttery in the US, I would swear it was the same idiots pushing both these ideas.
Isab at March 24, 2016 2:01 PM
"Oh....my......god. A number of people don't share your mouth frothing belief that Islam is the root cause of all the terrorism, and somewhat naïvely state that "Islam is the religion of Peace""
Gosh, oh golly gee. I gave someone the vapors. If you read what I wrote, and have some level of comprehension, you will note I did not say what you think I said. Have I put a bee in your bonnet?
"(Read a little history you will find that even Buddists resort to war and terrorism if they believe their cause merits it)"
That comment is on topic how? I don't know what to make of it.
"just maybe we should be fighting terrorists, and terrorism, as opposed to ranting and raving about a *book*"
Oh, I'm so very sorry. I thought one could do both. Like Crid, you never say Amy said something wrong, or incorrect. If you don't clutch your pearls so thight, you may not be bothered by Amy's ranting and raving - as you call it.
"This so resembles the anti gun nuttery in the US, I would swear it was the same idiots pushing both these ideas."
Methinks you would be wrong if you swore that; but, go right ahead, it's a free country.
Dave B at March 24, 2016 2:43 PM
"Oh, I'm so very sorry. I thought one could do both. Like Crid, you never say Amy said something wrong, or incorrect. If you don't clutch your pearls so thight, you may not be bothered by Amy's ranting and raving - as you call it."
It is not only wrong, is is pointless. Even if Islam was the root of all evil which no actual thinking person believes for an instant, what could you possibly do, on a practical level when you are talking about literally one quarter of the worlds population?
Islam is an organizing philosophy for a desperate sect looking for political power and a solution to their miserable lives.
They want to feel powerful. If Islam didn't exist, they would be Zoroastrians or something else, and their ancient religious texts would be hauled out to justify the violence their cause requires.
Just amazes me that people like you on this board who are not Muslims think that exterminating the religion will somehow bring peace on earth, which is EXACTLY what the terrorists believe about you.
Isab at March 24, 2016 3:07 PM
> Yet people who should know better,
> and have influence, continue
> to claim it is.
Which "people"? With what consequence? What do they "influence"? Amy's been vapidly prattling about this for so many years that it's too late for you guys to affirm you have any practical considerations in mind whatsoever.
On a planet that brought us Bach, Parker and Zappa, "people" continue to affirm that Bieber is a gifted musical presence. Truth and facts! Fantasies!
> State the truth.
Faux-humble, anemically poignant. As noted just above, in a world of practicalities like ours, you can "state" whatever you want, but it often seems pretty silly.
Besides, Amy doesn't "state" things, she "put[s] out what are the realities of Islam."
On a "scale."
A *wide* one!
You guys wanna do this? Seriousballs? You wanna give it an hour of your life?
Go this website. (You've already paid for the privilege... Boy, have you paid.)
Look up three countries... Maybe Indonesia, Nigeria, and uh I dunno, fuckit, Ethiopia. Read the entire entry from start to finish. If it takes an hour, spend it. Two, five. Read it.
Boom! Just like that, you'll know more about Islam than Amy Alkon could ever dream of, more than all terrors that could fill her sleepless & sheepled (but weirdly self-aggrandizing) dreams.
But if you don't do that reading, don't get all pouty-chinned and mopey and whiny about truth.
'Kay? 'Kay.
Crid at March 24, 2016 3:14 PM
"It is not only wrong, is is pointless."
What is wrong? If it is not wrong, is it still pointless?
"Even if Islam was the root of all evil which no actual thinking person believes for an instant"
I cannot speak for all actual thinking persons other than myself (but, evidently you do not think I am a thinking person), nor do I believe I know what all actual thinking persons think and believe. As a matter of fact, I do not think Amy ever said Islam was the root of all evil. Do you?
"what could you possibly do, on a practical level"
About what? Something Amy never said. Please.
"Islam is an organizing philosophy for a desperate sect looking for political power and a solution to their miserable lives."
Methinks Amy has said that. Desperate actors use the texts to justify and convert. Do you disagree?
"If Islam didn't exist"
But it does exist. And it is utilized to justify evil acts. What is, is.
"Just amazes me that people like you on this board who are not Muslims think that exterminating the religion will somehow bring peace on earth, which is EXACTLY what the terrorists believe about you."
What amazes me is that you are so delusional that you think Amy, or anyone else on this board, wants to exterminate the religion. Also, where has it been said, here on this board, peace on earth will arrive upon such termination other than you. Alas, pray tell, how do you know what terrorists believe about me.
Dave B at March 24, 2016 4:12 PM
"Which "people"?"
TV. Maybe you don't watch.
"With what consequence?"
People believe what is said on TV. Not all. Just like people believe what they read, including internet. Not all.
"What do they "influence"?"
Peoples' opinions.
"for you guys to affirm you have any practical considerations in mind whatsoever"
Say what?
"On a planet that brought us Bach, Parker and Zappa, "people" continue to affirm that Bieber is a gifted musical presence. Truth and facts! Fantasies!"
True dat! Amazing world we live in. Maybe you can change it to your liking.
"Faux-humble, anemically poignant. As noted just above, in a world of practicalities like ours, you can "state" whatever you want, but it often seems pretty silly."
Is a lie better than the truth? Even if a lie is more practical than the truth? Someone, somewhere is mourning today because a loved one is gone. Is that truth silly? Who the hell are you to spout out that what others state often seems pretty silly - you related to Obama?
"Besides, Amy doesn't "state" things, she "put[s] out what are the realities of Islam."
On a "scale."
A *wide* one!"
I have yet to figure out why you care what Amy says about Islam. Unless, what she says is not true, but then the "true" thingy doesn't seem to matter to you. So, as always on this issue, what is your point?
I'll do seriousballs later - animals are ready for dinner.
Dave B at March 24, 2016 4:32 PM
> TV. Maybe you don't watch.
WATCH YOUR MOUTH, young man...
...Well, actually, I haven't owned one since the first Gulf war, but the point is that there are a lot of people on TV, and making sure they all say just-the-right-thing seems futile.
> Not all. Just like people believe
> what they read, including internet.
> Not all.
Let's not stress until it gets specific. Shouldn't the influence of opinion be permitted?
> Who the hell are you to spout
> out that what others state often
> seems pretty silly
I'm just saying. When I "spout out," old women blush and young girls squeal.
> I have yet to figure out why
> you care what Amy says about
> Islam
Because these postings are embarrassing. It's embarrassing that the host of a blog I've given so much time to would be so transparently self-aggrandizing, ill-informed and snake-oily about an issue of this magnitude, when such an enormous amount of solid information and context about the matter is freely available to all on the very platform through which she became known to us.
It's HOKEY.
Crid at March 24, 2016 4:50 PM
I guess you guys get it but not sure.
In general no one really cares what Islam is or is not EXCEPT a large number of its ijits are killing large numbers of people.
Okay, so now they've got our attention. Don't want to be killed ya know.
Well it seems a large number of its ijits say that there is really no problem 'cause really its just you know a group of people not like them (peaceful).
Okay, so now I understand but the ones that are killing people are very well organized, funded, and exist in country-states so I'm not sure it matters that the majority of its ijits are, you know, peaceful.
But really the peaceful ones say, it's not that many people being killed here in the US and in Europe, and they might stop if westerners did not call them names.
Okay, so now I'm kinda at fault for trying to identify which group of ijits is trying to kill us. Of course these country-states are killing very large number of its citizens who are not the right kind of ijits but I'm not supposed to care I guess.
Okay, so I'm kinda at fault and no matter how many baby showers I throw there groups of ijits wanting to kill me. They are organized, funded, and come from a few country-states.
Okay, I've asked the leaders of these country-states to stop killing but they really really don't want to due to their beliefs. Being a tolerant person I'm good with that as long as its elsewhere.
Okay, it's not just elsewhere and its a problem as I like giving baby showers and that last one in Ca. just did not turn out well.
Well, since asking the leaders of these country-states did not get them to stop killing their peers or us over here I guess we need to get their attention.
Okay money talks so send money and buy stuff from them. Not working (they are kinda stupid ijits but evidently sincere in their beliefs).
Okay, the peaceful ones are not a problem and they are peaceful and will be peaceful because their book (the same one) is peaceful. That's good 'cause they outnumber us.
Okay, the non-peaceful ones are located in a several defined locations on Mother Earth and generally follow orders. So the problem ones are located but can not be named for social reasons.
Get the attention of the leaders of these problem ones and illustrate why they should leave us alone and kill only their peers. How that's done can be and hopefully will be surgical in nature w/minimal innocent fatalities.
If anyone can see a way out other than the above the world would really like to see it.
Bob in Texas at March 24, 2016 5:27 PM
Some history for those that may not know how the game is being played.
"The scope of the offensive stunned the White House, the media, and the American people. Adding to the impact of the surprise attacks was the fact that they followed in the wake of repeated reassurances from both the military and the ... administration that progress was being made in the war and that the end was in sight."
"The offensive, which extended in later phases ... was a costly military defeat ... However, the early reporting of a smashing Communist victory went largely uncorrected in the media, and this contributed to a great psychological victory for the Communists at the political level."
"Despite the fact that the Communists were defeated during the fighting, it was the political component of the offensive that had such a huge impact on the ultimate outcome of the war."
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2009/01/29/shock-and-awe-of-tet-offensive-shattered-us-illusions
Bob in Texas at March 24, 2016 5:43 PM
"Because these postings are embarrassing. It's embarrassing that the host of a blog I've given so much time to would be so transparently self-aggrandizing, ill-informed and snake-oily about an issue of this magnitude, when such an enormous amount of solid information and context about the matter is freely available to all on the very platform through which she became known to us."
I would say it is more Christian-centric. Amy often uses a tag line something like 'a murderous ideology masquerading as a religion'. There is an implicit assumption that government and religion should be separate, which is a very Christian concept (render unto Caesar and all that). Most religions are also governments. That Islam demands a theocracy is both normal and common. It is only the modern west that pushes for a separation of church and state, mainly due to it's Christian heritage. From communist China and Russia, North Korea, and down into the Middle East you see nations where the head of the nation is also the head of the church. This is the normal state of affairs.
Ben at March 24, 2016 8:59 PM
> the non-peaceful ones are located
> in a several defined locations
I did not know this...
Where? Where are these "defined" locations? You know who to kill? Tell us. I want names, preferably with portraits and daily schedules.
> It is only the modern west that
> pushes for a separation of church
> and state, mainly due to it's Christian
> heritage.
That's an extremely weird thing to say, but you're not first one on this blog to say it. There's this presumption that the contemporary (if expensive & imperfect) docility of American religion happened because Christian authorities decided to politely hand the keys to a bunch of people outside the church, folks whose devotion was irrelevant.
I can't imagine what reading of history you've made to lead you to this conclusion.
But I remember you, Ben... You're the guy who doesn't like being pestered for cites, right?
Some Muslims are like that too, but they're mostly illiterate anyway... It's not that they can't make the time.
Crid at March 25, 2016 12:37 AM
It isn't a universally Christian thing Crid but I've mostly seen it come from formerly Christian dominated areas. I also accept that not all Christians view things that way (the Vatican is a great counter example). So if you want to provide evidence I'm wrong go right ahead.
Mostly I was pointing out separating government and religion isn't the norm. Also, separating religion and ideology is ridiculous. Religion is ideology. Organized religion is ideology formalized and written down. To paraphrase you from a few days ago, when people abandon organized religion they don't end up with no religion. Instead they end up with an undefined one.
Ben at March 25, 2016 6:33 AM
And yes Crid. I'm still working on that homework you gave me. The only answer I have to 'How dare you?!?' is 'With ease.' which I agree is a very unsatisfying answer. So I continue to work on a better solution in my free time.
It is a most compelling question.
Ben at March 25, 2016 6:35 AM
In both cases, I literally don't know what you're talking about. Your topics aren't apparent. WHAT is more Christian-centric? WHAT is a compelling question? Meanwhile the point is to do some learning before making assertions.
Crid at March 25, 2016 8:54 AM
So Crid you are not sure where the Muslims are that are killing persons not like them? I doubt that. It's too easy.
I believe there's a particular neighborhood in Brussels that hid a killer for a month or so and had a bomb factory in it.
I think there are country-states in ME that are/have been doing this for a few years.
The easiest way for you to determine for sure where these people are would be to simply ask around.
It might take awhile in between hospital stays (jail time on some college campuses) but I'd bet good cash money (nice quote) you'd figure it out.
But enough about my silly stuff. What's your answer? (Assuming it's not that we should just accept these random killings as a new normal.)
Bob in Texas at March 25, 2016 10:37 AM
What do you mean new normal?
http://www.themoneyillusion.com/?p=31576
I don't think terrorists should be treated as an existential threat to Western civilization.
Abersouth at March 25, 2016 10:55 AM
"I don't think terrorists should be treated as an existential threat to Western civilization."
What does that mean? Or, better yet, how should they be treated?
I think terrorists should be treated as dead men/women walking, and should be killed with as much speed as possible.
Dave B at March 25, 2016 12:24 PM
Sorry Crid. I'm just not that good at communication.
Christian-centric - surrounded or heavily influenced by Christian culture/religion.
compelling question - a question that by it's posing acts to force a person to action.
I was also stumped by your request for a cite back when this all started (in your link). How do you cite your own opinion when you've just stated it? Quoting yourself feels redundant.
As for the separation of church and state thing, I would also accept the claim it is not a Christian thing but instead a British thing (Magna Carta and all that). If you wish to otherwise refute my point I welcome your evidence.
Ben at March 25, 2016 12:52 PM
> So Crid you are not sure where
> the Muslims are that are killing
> persons not like them?
Not in any practical, useful way. You're being glib and simplistic.
> What's your answer?
What's the question?
> I'm just not that good at
> communication.
Work harder.
> I was also stumped
Again, I think you're confusing yourself. Avoid irony and sarcasm until you've mastered clarity, brevity and sincerity.
Crid at March 25, 2016 1:31 PM
> I don't think terrorists should be
> treated as an existential threat
> to Western civilization.
Agreed, though they should be stopped anyway. There's a lot of stuff that shouldn't be tolerated just because WC could survive it.
Crid at March 25, 2016 2:46 PM
Work harder is hardly constructive advice. Also, there was no irony or sarcasm. That was as sincere and clear as I am capable.
Ben at March 25, 2016 3:01 PM
"their 'leaders' need to be show that fear of our might and willingness to use that might is a GOOD thing."
For whom? Terrorists continue their terrorizing after we've committed a coupla trillion to various wars, invasions, bombing campaigns, drone strikes, and assorted black ops since 9/11 to drive the message home.
The Congressional Research Service seems to have the numbers sorted if you're interested.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 25, 2016 4:14 PM
> Work harder is hardly constructive
> advice
Amy's the Advice Goddess, not me.
Okay, start here:
> I would say it is more
> Christian-centric.
What? What is more Christian-centric?
> we've committed a coupla trillion to
> various wars, invasions, bombing
> campaigns, drone strikes, and
> assorted black ops
Point taken. I supported Iraq 2, but had no idea the follow-through would be so anemic and under-attended, both by the White House and by the taxpayer. Cato.
Crid at March 25, 2016 4:34 PM
"Meanwhile the point is to do some learning before making assertions."
That's filthy rich...
Radwaste at March 25, 2016 4:52 PM
"Amy's the Advice Goddess, not me."
Understood. Sadly it is unlikely any advice would be effective. Not criticism but just observation.
"What? What is more Christian-centric?"
Amy's world view.
"As an atheist and a non-violent person, I have no problem if anyone wants to emulate Jesus and be all "feed the poor!" "Heal the sick!""
This does not strike you as Christian-centric? I also included her assumption that church and state should not be one.
While Amy is not a Christian she did grow up in a heavily Christian dominated nation. That basic world view has influenced her. The concerns and priorities of the majority have shaped how she reacts to things. She is hardly unique in this. (I would hazard this is by far the norm.) This creates certain blind spots or gut reactions.
Middle Eastern Islam is a vastly different value system from American Judaeo-Christianity. Personally I don't see how the two systems are compatible. But I am far from all knowing. In Amy's case, she sees a threat and acts to alert other to that threat. Clearly you do not see that threat (or at least not to the level Amy does) and have grown annoyed with the constant siren blaring.
I'm afraid I don't have any solutions. Only observations.
Ben at March 25, 2016 5:04 PM
Well I'm not surprised that Gog's graph shows how expensive it is to wage war w/o regard for victory.
This expense and the unattainable goal of "victory" is why I'm focused on the country-state leaders.
We along w/Russia and China (India?) can afford to be real assholes when/if we want to.
Assholes typically get left alone 'cause it's natural not to poke one (like a grizzly bear).
I'm not sure what the leaders of these country-states (like N. Korea) really want/desire/fear, but that's what humint is for. There is no real need to rush just to be precise and correct.
I'm sure there is a logic to the thought of total victory in the ME but I really don't think it is worth it (we can drill drill drill).
I like the Kurds and Israel and would probably include them in my planning to ensure I have local military friends around.
Bob in Texas at March 25, 2016 5:38 PM
A great noise is being made about the "peaceful" fraction of Islam.
Maybe you shouldn't.
Radwaste at March 25, 2016 9:11 PM
> Sadly it is unlikely any advice
> would be effective.
Our culture is crawling with people who became more productive, marketable and happy once they responded positively to some negative feedback. Those who can't were often never interested in excellence anyway. We all have a right to know how we're perceived by others, right? Totally!
> Not criticism but just
> observation.
Naw, that "Sadly" is the tone of a critic... A wrong one, but hey, I got no worries, speak your mind as best you can.
> Amy's world view.
Why didn't you say that the first time? Or the second?
> This does not strike you
> as Christian-centric?
Amy's lived and thrived in a largely Christian culture, but if only as a courtesy (but also because it sounds inane), I'd decline to describe her perspective as "Christian-centric." She's beach-life-centric and tall-guy-centric and unusual-automobile-centric, but her dearest cosmology is not for me to characterize.
> Middle Eastern Islam is a vastly
> different value system from American
> Judaeo-Christianity.
I'd feel better about answering the point if you'd spelt it rite, but I think the reely different value system, from ours, is 'impoverished, illiterate, pre-feminist primitivism.' The fuckers who worry you most got no idea how to live. There's nothing special about their heritage —background, or religion— that we need to be afraid of. They're just savage dumbfucks, and there's nothing new under the sun. (Confessing now!: I sometimes think it's amusing that youze guys have been living in such fat, air-conditioned comfort that you can't even recognize typical human savagery— Golly, there must be some sweetly, commercially-digestible *reason* for their misbehavior... Aha! That book! Even if they don't know how to read! ...Or don't care to.
> We along w/Russia and China
> (India?) can afford to be
> real assholes
China has, in Tom Barnett's delicious phrase, "an Africa's worth of poverty in its interior." Their richest, smartest and most demanding people are on their East coast. The best natural resources and titchiest minorities are along their interior borders. India, burdened with the primitiveness & poverty that typifies the the most noisemaking of Islamists, is (like China) composed of cultures that don't even speak the same language, 60% of whom don't shit on toilets. Neither country can float a blue-water navy. Neither is in any meaningful sense our competitor for power, or for exemplary influence.
No, life's too short for even a five-minute TV show named "The Peaceful Majority Is Irrelevant."
Was it cute? What did it say?
Crid at March 26, 2016 1:03 AM
The sadly wasn't criticism of you Crid. It was of me. It is unlikely you can provide information in a format I would find useful. My limitations have prevented an opportunity for self improvement.
I'm not sure what to do if you find that critical of you. Why should you be expected to provide information in a non-standard format? But you do seem determined to take offense. Either way enjoy.
And no, middle eastern societies and American society are not differentiated by their technological levels. You can buy that. We sell it quite freely. And many of them are quite literate. A number are quite rich. The biggest difference is they are a collectivist culture while the US is still mostly an individualist culture. Honestly they are the closest I've seen of true Communism. But you are correct, they are hardly unique. That was one of my points. If anything western culture is the outlier.
Ben at March 26, 2016 9:09 AM
> Either way enjoy.
?? What are you trying to say?
> And no, middle eastern societies
> and American society are not
> differentiated by their technological
> levels. You can buy that.
You are confusing yourself. Do homework.
Crid at March 26, 2016 9:43 AM
"?? What are you trying to say?"
Whichever path you chose (two were presented) enjoy it.
And yes Crid you can purchase technological training and expertise. Middle eastern nations could easily afford to train their citizens in western universities in technical subjects and transfer that technology to their nations. The Japanese did it. The Koreans did it. The Chinese are currently doing it. The Indians are quibbling over it. Most middle eastern nations are not interested in doing this. They want the end products of technologically advanced societies. They have little interest in producing it. Instead when they send their citizens to western universities they get degrees in non-technological subjects.
Ben at March 26, 2016 6:40 PM
The paths were unreadable. Could you sketch 'em out again?
Crid at March 26, 2016 9:34 PM
Be offended or do not be offended. The choice is yours. I have no control over which you will pick. In a bit of whimsy I have commanded you to enjoy your decision, another thing I have absolutely no control over.
As I said I have communication issues with you. Artemis I find highly understandable. I may disagree with his goals. But otherwise he only appears stubbornly wasteful to me. Predictions of his actions are fairly accurate. You on the other hand I can only treat heuristically. Such statistical models I find unsatisfactory beyond their inherent inaccuracies. The situation implies lack of knowledge as well as lack of control. I fail to see a way to rectify this problem at this time.
As an example, when I called you a troll and first offended you I never ment to cause offense. It literally never occurred to me you would find that characterization unflattering. But intent is mostly irrelevant. Whether I wanted to or not I gave offense. Where intent does matter is behavior modification technique selection. Two issues are possible, 'bad goals' or 'incompetence'. Unfortunately you have to deal with incompetence, a far harder problem to solve.
One last thing to make clear (since you requested maximum clarity). To me a request for clarity has two possible solutions.
One, provide the data in a format that is optimized for the receiver (you). As I said above I am not capable of such a service.
Two, provide the data with as minimal processing as possible. This is the chosen solution.
Typically I 'ape' human interactions. People find it uncomfortable and confusing when I just be myself (stupid teacher advice).
Ben at March 27, 2016 6:09 AM
Are you Artemis? You communications are equally impenetrable. Much is explained! You're a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, but since nobbody GAF, a lot of time is saved.
I mean, who wouldn't rather be Mom of 4 or Conan or one of the Daves or NicoleK? ...If you had your choice.
Crid at March 27, 2016 12:01 PM
I am not Artemis. But I suspect we share similar biologies. As I said, I find him easily understood. His desires to preach and evangelize are pointless and in poor taste but his actions make sense.
As much as you find me confusing I find you the same. The way we experience the world is orthogonal. But I do enjoy your writing. I suspect it would be helpful to consider me either robotic or alien.
Ben at March 27, 2016 2:25 PM
Or to consider you not at all... "Biologies" don't excuse clumsy slander, however milquetoast.
Crid at March 27, 2016 7:10 PM
Acceptable and agreed.
Ben at March 27, 2016 8:13 PM
(FFS, you hard type those karet symbols in?)
How about these things, for starters:
Rubbish every fool who uses the word "Islamophobia". Hating Islam is rational. Labeling that "Islamophobia" is another instance of the left's desire to first demonize, then ostracize, so as to silence, disagreeable opinions. Unfortunately, that also has had a nasty way of insulating the left from reality.
Have all states honor the second amendment — the entire country should be "shall issue" for concealed carry.
Take a billion out of the DOD budget and provide introductory defensive shooting training for all who wish to have it.
Non-muslims need to stop telling muslims that muslims committing atrocities for Islam are not adhering to true Islam. It is an affront to reality, and an insult to their intelligence.
Stop shying away from what a nasty piece of work Islam is.
And stop failing to recognize that when a Muslim gets stomped to death in Glasgow for advocating religious tolerance, Islam is the problem.
And when a suicide bombing in Pakistan kills nearly 100, most women and children, Islam is the problem.
And recognize — I really hate to agree with Trump on anything — that it is folly to allow immigration from cultures that have no experience of, and are inherently antagonistic to, Enlightenment values. It has gone very badly for Europe (Rotherham, Cologne, no-go areas throughout Europe), we'd be idiots to follow their example.
Fly C-17s in formation across the entire mid-East, shoveling Prozac out the back of them until the whole region can no longer tell the difference between a Kalashnikov and a cat.
Prohibit the phrase, "Islam, religion of peace" unless it is accompanied by a laugh track.
Crid, the question that you really need to ask is how many more such atrocities will the Europeans suffer before really ugly things start happening.
And frighteningly high percentage of them think Islamists are doing the right thing. There are essentially no majority Muslim countries that aren't riven by both internal and external conflict. And no countries with sizable Muslim minorities that aren't trying to make life miserable for everyone else, where sizable is more than 10%.
We are lucky — oceans, the lack of colonies, and a decent birthrate, has kept our Muslim population below 2%.
Bollocks. Looking up countries yields a bunch of statistics, and looking up Islam yields links that do nothing to teach about Islam.
In case I missed something, by all means point me directly to what I missed.
I don't recall a single instance of something Amy said on Islam being factually wrong, or selective. And I don't recall you citing anything specific, either.
Jeff Guinn at March 29, 2016 8:35 AM
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