I've dozing on and off for several hours, tuning in and out of Shkreli's YouTube Live Stream, presently at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWEZCk-t7Cw .

He signed off at 1:20am PST. There had been five hours of him working through a workbook of Javascript, trading comments through his twitter feed and YouTube commenters, doing a beer chat/interview with some friend or another, and sharing vaguely honest boasting + reeltalk about his finances.

I love anyone who smirks at Congress. Wikipedia:

Shkreli was subpoenaed to appear before the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform of the U.S. House of Representatives to answer questions about the Daraprim price increase.[95] Shkreli's efforts to quash the subpoena were unsuccessful.[95]

On February 4, 2016, Shkreli appeared before the House committee,[96] along with Nancy Retzlaff,[97] the Chief Commercial Officer of Turing, and Howard B. Schiller, the interim CEO of Valeant.[98]

Shkreli followed his lawyer's advice and refused to answer all questions with exception to the question pertaining to his name by South Carolina Congressman Trey Gowdy[99][100] – including those related to his acquisition of the most expensive music album ever made[101] – by exercising his Fifth Amendment rights.[102] On the same day, Shkreli wrote a public message on Twitter reading, "Hard to accept that these imbeciles represent the people in our government",[95] and later he took to the internet saying he was willing to take questions from the public that he’d refused to answer before Congress, justifying his position by accusing the Congressmen of being motivated purely by “self-interest.”[103]

Here's the Vanity Fair piece.

And if anybody---

---And if anybody wants to talk about drug prices, we can do that, too.

Fuggit, let's eat. (Via Cosh)

I'm not gay, but I would do what Lomborg's eyes told me to do. I love that man.

We see that Gleick is in the "global warming" division of the centralized authority industry. And business is good... They're hiring!

Remember that to stay healthy, it's important to science.

Circumcision Bingo anyone?

https://twitter.com/MetaRantz/status/788284782618767360

Is Kevin McCoy from USA TODay the next suicided journalist?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/10/17/hillary-clinton-foundation-donors-lobbyists-state-department/92285652/

"This guy is basically a gifted version of the audacious, self-made businessman Radwaste claims to admire, only without the inherited wealth, multiply-shattered families, or theatrically weak taste."

Gee, all I did was point out that by many objective measures, Trump has accomplished far more than you. Us, actually, but I know where we stand. I could have said that about Idi Amin and still been right, but you set your own values...

I see I'm in your head therewith. Stuffy in here. Given the ventilation, I thought the view would be better. Is that another fat airline traveler? Wonder if he's a "Moozlim"?

Just be glad he isn't charging you rent Rad. You don't want to know what I'm paying for the next lobe over.

> Gee, all I did was point out that
> by many objective measures, Trump
> has accomplished far more than you.

Right? It was weird. You did that to encourage people to vote for him.

(…As if he'd managed his inherited wealth and consequent businesses well instead of squandering them across a lifetime.)

> I'm in your head therewith

How come nobody quotes me correctly, but everyone goes all butthurt when I read what they write?

You're not a guy who does "objective," certainly not in 2016. The buttons pushed in the hearts of such rhetors were wired up in kindergarten.

Speaking of teats....

Warren Buffett is a better investor than anyone! Completely. Should he be President?

Lebron is totally the best basketball player, should....

Etc.

This mentions something that's been bugging me for some time:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/carolyn-hax-two-moms-and-the-enemy-of-the-play-date/2016/10/10/42cac8ee-8cda-11e6-bf8a-3d26847eeed4_story.html

Dear Carolyn: I am a stepparent to a teenage girl who has recently moved in with us while her mom works in another city. So last week I got buttonholed by another kid’s parent for one of those, “You’re not a real parent, so I just wanted to let you know . . . ” talks. This other parent’s son had asked the Kid out to a school dance, Kid said, “Thanks, but no,” and asked out her crush. (He said yes, my door hinges thank him.)

According to the other parent, if she didn’t want to go with the first boy who asked her, then she can’t go at all and should stay at home knitting her nun’s habit or something.

Is this a thing? Or is this other parent just being a tool because her son got his feelings hurt?

Dance With the One That Brought You?

Dance With the One That Brought You?: No, it’s not a thing, she can dance if she wants to.

Also not a thing: “those, ‘You’re not a real parent, so I just wanted to let you know . . . ’ talks.” Even if they are a thing, please treat them as if they are not, because the surest way to alienate your fellow parents as you negotiate this newish role is to approach them as if you are the eye-rolling rebel to their monolithic sense of superiority. They’re doing their thing; you’re doing yours. Take each exchange as a conversation unto itself.
_______________________________________

Unfortunately, Carolyn Hax didn't quite know what she was talking about. (Neither did most of the commentators.)

Yes, it IS a thing. A very old thing. Even Miss Manners has said that if you turn down an invitation for the prom, you have to stay home and not accept an invitation from someone else. (I can only hope that, since MM calls herself a feminist, she would apply the same rule to boys who were asked out by girls and refused the invitations. I don't know whether it also applies to adult women and Saturday night dates that don't involve dancing.) Obviously, it's ALWAYS rude to accept the first invitation only to break it off in favor of a second invitation - but we're not talking about that here.

But the first rule makes no sense to me, even though some people today agree with MM. After all, aren't even TODDLERS supposed to learn to deal with crushing disappointments on a daily basis, never mind older kids? What's the difference? Besides, what gives the boy the right to ask out a second girl if the first girl refuses him, since the second' girl's feelings would ALSO be hurt when she finds out she wasn't the first one asked? Not to mention - why in the world should ANYONE have to stay at home just because he/she was unlucky enough to be asked out first by someone who's a borderline criminal or someone who never bathes and has the creepy personality to go with such habits? Again, don't awful young people NEED to experience rejection and change themselves if they want to become more popular?

Oh, BTW, I found that link at Bratfree. Here's the thread on that:

"Moo tries to punish teen girl for rejecting her son"

http://www.refugees.bratfree.com/read.php?2,411693

Y'know, all this yammering about 'predatory' groping suggests that feminism has failed adult women in a fundamental way, in the safe conduct of their sexual presence through adult society.

It someone had given Trump a shiner in 1994 (or '67, '73 or '82), it would have been best for everyone. Also, WJC.

I take this seriously. All men should.

Strike the first "adult"... I was trying to read Lenono's comment while typing.

Okay, but "Moo"?

Also— I can't find the Judith Martin advice you mention.

But mostly, the Moo thing. That means "Mother," right?

Why do women do these things to themselves?

Saw this and thought of our hostess.

Remember those one heartbeat away concerns in 2008? Never mind.

"Y'know, all this yammering about 'predatory' groping suggests that feminism has failed adult women in a fundamental way..."

Wasn't that the whole idea?

To Crid: "Moo" is the term always used at Bratfree - by the childfree posters. Meaning "a rotten mother." (The male version is "duhd.") Another term is BNP, meaning "breeder, not parent." Thankfully, they do have an opposite term: "parent, not breeder" (PNB) - and they do actually use it, for any parent that makes kids behave and not be irritating - that even includes too-loud baby talk.

I don't get your last sentence.

And re the MM column, I found it just by searching on "Miss Manners," prom, and invitation. It's from 2012.

(BTW, one reason I wouldn't like her rule even if boys had to follow my above etiquette suggestions as well is that boys would simply never tolerate those restrictions!)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/miss-manners-high-school-slights-can-last-a-lifetime/2012/03/01/gIQAzRvOSS_story.html?tid=pm_lifestyle_pop

DEAR MISS MANNERS: Is it acceptable for a girl to decline an invitation to a dance, only to later accept another invitation to the same dance? This is for a high school dance or prom.

GENTLE READER: If you are the parent of a young gentleman to whom this has been done, Miss Manners can confirm that the young lady is indeed rude, and that however crushed your son is, he is better off. She would be capable of committing another rudeness, such as breaking the date later.

If you are the parent of a young lady who proposes to do this, it is still rude, but Miss Manners has more to say.

You should tell your daughter that as the idea is to avoid hurting the young gentleman’s feelings, in theory, she should be able to do this if he would never find out. Then ask her how she would decline without being unkind or untruthful. And remind her that there are no secrets in high school.

There is another lesson you might give, even though she will not believe it. That is that some law of nature makes the least popular boy in high school into the most desirable man later in life, yet, no matter how successful and glamorous he has become, makes him remember and continue to smart from having been slighted.

(end)

Incredibly, there weren't that many comments.

Some good ones:

Aquagirl
3/22/2012 8:46 AM EST
I agree with everyone else about the prom date. If people had to accept the first offer, I can just imagine the scene in the hallways at school as girls flee in terror every time the "wrong" boy is even walking in their direction. That would be a lot more hurtful than "thanks for asking me, but no."

JetlaggedExpat
3/22/2012 1:07 PM EST
I'm not positive, but I think I've read this scenario. IIRC, in Beverly Cleary's "Fifteen" the main character spends a few days avoiding the old friend who always asks her to dances, because she's waiting for the boy she's been dating to ask her.

Ellie59
3/22/2012 4:33 PM EST
From my daughter's HS experience the girls do flee if they get tipped off that someone they don't want to go with is going to ask them. The really do - dodging into the nearest classroom (nevermind that they have no idea what class it is) - hiding behind their friends as they all walk away.

And the guys do this too if they see a girl who is 'expecting' them to ask, but they don't want to. Or if they know the girl is going to ask them. From what I witnessed my daughter's senior year - it gets pretty insane around prom time. Loads of drama and kids dodging and darting all over the place.

gottaloveit (this one almost says what I did regarding a boy's "right" to ask more than one girl)
3/23/2012 6:24 AM EST
So wait...you are rude unless you go to the dance with someone you don't want to, simply because he was the fisrt to ask? REALLY? So if some Harley-riding, tatto-covered drug dealer asks my daughter to the prom first, she must go with him in the name of "etiquette??" Right. IMO this is the attitude that leads to women being abused and otherwise mistreated. After all, it wouldn't be polite to turn the guy down, and it wouldn't be ladylike to defend herself!

If a guy has the "right" to ask whoever he wants, then the girl has a right to decide whether or not he's someone she wants to go with. Life is full of rejection, may as well get used to it in high school.

ajvallis
3/23/2012 4:02 PM EST
I don't understand why declining the invitation to the dance is such a slight. It is a person's right to accept or decline a date as they see fit, so long as it is done with respect and kindness. If person A asks me to go see a movie with him, and I decline the date, am I not allowed to go see the movie with someone else? or by myself? Can you imagine if this rule of etiquette applied to marriage? People would call it ludicrous. In the case of a highschool dance or prom, the young woman in question has the right to attend the event by herself, with a group of friends, or on the arm of a date that she feels comfortable with. She is not obligated to miss out just because she wasn't interested in Suitor #1.

moviefan
3/23/2012 11:31 PM EST
I agree with the writers who have said that a girl isn't obligated to accept the first invitation to a dance or not go to the dance. She should definitely be kind and considerate of the feelings of a boy who asks her if she declines - but Miss Manners' suggested rule would basically give a boy veto power over a girl's options. That doesn't make sense to me.

Birdie4
3/24/2012 10:00 AM EST
I'm surprised by the answer about the dance. Surely it is not the case that any person must either attend the dance with the first one who asked, or not attend it at all. If I had known this, I would have asked the best looking guy in school a year in advance, knowing he was not permitted to say "no."

This answer seems to harm girls especially, since boys are more likely to ask; nothing requires the boy to ask, but, if Miss Manners is correct, the girl is required to say "yes." Contrary to Miss Manners' implication, the worst case scenario is not that the girl will have to go with an "unpopular" boy, but that she will have to go with a boy who she has genuine reason to dislike or even fear. Even if it just means that she can't go with the boy she really likes, whom she was planning to ask the next day, it's bad enough.

chi7
3/22/2012 3:12 AM EST
Miss Manners, I adore you, and your point about what often happens to people after high school is well-taken, but this answer places young women in an impossible position. "I don't want to" is always enough reason to turn down a date, and to be precluded (to avoid being "rude") from going with a date because you were first asked by someone you do not wish to go with is unreasonable. Of course declining should be polite ("thanks, but no"), but you don't have to decline beyond a reasonable doubt. The same would of course apply to a boy asked by a girl. Yes, there is talk in school, but they're old enough to start learning this. To the boy turned down, "You're better off without her" is still a perfectly fine answer, but not because she's rude; because she doesn't like you that way.

EjAe
3/22/2012 2:52 AM EST
I hope I'm not the only one who thinks that saying that a woman has to accept the first invitation offered -- no matter from whom -- or none at all is really gross. It was gross in the 18th century, and it's gross now. Perhaps worse now, when it's a date for the entire evening instead of a single dance?

JetlaggedExpat
3/22/2012 6:57 AM EST
And another thing.

...that is that some law of nature makes the least popular boy in high school into the most desirable man later in life, yet, no matter how successful and glamorous he has become, makes him remember and continue to smart from having been slighted.

I'm sorry, but this is B.S. Maybe the boy gets turned down because he's not high-status enough for the girl's tastes. But maybe he gets turned down because he refuses to let his conversation partner get a word in edgewise; or they've been out before and the girl wasn't planning to go out with him again because the only thing the two have in common is being conventionally attractive and in the same Trig class; or he has a reputation for ignoring his dates until he and his buddies have passed a flask--after which point he won't keep his hands to himself. Or maybe he's a perfectly nice guy, about to be voted Most Likely to Succeed, and the girl would totally want to go with him except that she was already planning to ask the dreamy boy in her English class who wrote that awesome poem last week and MLtS beat her to the punch.

In any case, inviting a person to an event does not stamp "RESERVED" on that person's forehead, and the eventual adult feelings of a teenaged Bill Gates are *not* the responsibility of any particular teenaged girl.

Blurgle
3/22/2012 8:15 AM EST
No, no, no, Miss Manners. This is all wrong.

If the guy who doesn't bathe, the date rapist, or the creepy loser asks her, she either has to say yes to him - and face a ride in his car which would be uncomfortable at best, physically dangerous at worst - or stay at home?

No, no, no. Absolutely not.

Fun Cosh, pays off wonderfully.





> I don't get your last sentence.

Women seem to give themselves and each other brutal nicknames.

The Martin reply is indeed strange.

All those violent incidents at Trump rallies? It turns out that Hillary's campaign has been planting agent provocateurs in Trump's audiences. This is Goebbels / Brownshirts stuff. This is what you do when you intend for the current election to be the last one.

Lenona, I'm an old man. I was in high school in the 1970s. And I've never, ever heard of that. I know for a fact that the girl who turned me down went with someone else, and I seriously doubt that it troubled her a bit.

(I just remembered - Harry Potter certainly wasn't socially obligated to stay in his dorm after he turned down the first girl who asked him!)

I was afraid this server might crash. Here are some more.

BTW, there's another thread about the same column - eight pages long:
http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=a631da8fdee1c52d21068251b9130c53&topic=114673.0

(Amazingly, the thread includes Amy Vanderbilt's decades-old article on the same issue - and she DISAGREES with Miss Manners!)

Another person said: "And it would take just one rogue boy asking & being refused by every girl in the class to call off the Prom entirely."

And another, from page 4:

"I'm with those who view Ms. Manners' response as completely off, and Bijou's comments gave me another thought. If it were actually a norm, and ettiquette mandated response that, while in high school (since MM's answer seems to suggest this rule applies solely to that age/environment), the only acceptable replies to being asked to a dance are "I would love to!", "I've already accepted another invitation." or "I won't be able to attend." - there would be no nervousness on the part of those asking others for such a date, since no personal judgment is allowed for in any reply. Asking for a date to a dance is then nothing more than a matter of timing, and of course, the "askers" personal judgment as to who to ask.

"It is the expectation that an asker's "entitlement" to the company of the one asked, unless the one asked is willing to completely forgo an event or was previously committed to go with another which rankles me. That and the fact that this rule seems to apply only to the benefit of one gender, given that MM doesn't suggest the same rule may work where a girl may do the asking."

And from the same page - interesting:

Sheila Take a Bow
« Reply #52 on: March 22, 2012, 01:54:15 PM »
"When I was a senior in high school, there was a boy (a junior named Mark) I wanted to take to the prom. I asked him, and he told me he really wanted to say yes, but he couldn't. I thought it was strange, since a mutual friend had told me that Mark wanted me to ask him, but I shrugged it off.

"A little bit later, the mutual friend explained to me what had happened. A girl, Ingrid, had asked Mark to be her prom date. Ingrid was nice but very socially awkward, and Mark didn't want to be her date. So he said he couldn't go.

"I asked him to prom a day after Ingrid had. Mark did not want to show up with me at the prom after telling Ingrid that he couldn't go, because he knew it would hurt her feelings. So he turned me down, too.

"After I found out the whole story, I was actually kind of glad that Mark turned me down. To me, it was the kind thing to do, and the right thing.

"I guess this is my long-winded way of saying that I totally get what Miss Manners is saying."

From the FIRST link:

Milkthegoat
3/22/2012 11:28 AM EST
We are talking about this girl's future provider. "Might makes right" has no better application than in the game of love (and prom).

It's no wonder MM addressed the parents instead of the girl, b/c it's really them who have to suffer if this girl never lands a man to take over feeding her.

LizaBean
3/22/2012 12:19 PM EST
LOL. I have this image of boys in the school hallway doing what my friends' brother used to do claim food they wanted, licking their hands and slapping it on a girls' forehead and shouting "MINE!"

st00pidpants
3/22/2012 9:33 AM EST
I think Miss Manners is doing her readers a disservice by assuming that the girl is declining because the boy is unpopular. Before we even get into the question of simple lack of interest (should she really get his hopes up when she has no interest in spending time with him?) she could also be declining because he sets off her creep-dar, or because her best friend has an unrequited crush on him, or because he treated his last girlfriend poorly, or because she once saw him bullying someone. To put it in Miss Manners' idiom, surely a lady needn't sit at home simply because she declined a cad?

Hollyoke
3/22/2012 3:53 PM EST
What's wrong with a girl declining - politely - an invitation from an unpopular boy? Sorry, but the first boy need not be a bully, a drug addict, BFF's secret crush, etc. for the girl to decline his invitation. All she has to do is not want to go to the dance with him.

Are adult women allowed to decline invitations from perfectly nice, but not "their type" guys? Or are they allowed to have a choice when it comes to romantic relationships? We learn how to comport ourselves as adults while we are still kids, so if we tell girls that the only *valid* reasons to decline invitations are if the asker is a creep, then we send them the wrong message.

JetlaggedExpat
3/22/2012 7:40 AM EST
Especially given that, having been turned down, the rejectee is now perfectly free to invite someone else.

Julie713
3/22/2012 8:22 AM EST
No social convention should bully anyone to accept an invitation from an unwanted inviter because he / she delivered the invitation first. I was the target of unwanted invitations when I was a teen, and my mom insisted I accept engagements with boys so as not to hurt their feelings. What about my feelings? If I could go back in time, I'd say "Thank you SO much for thinking of me, Henry, but I'm actually planning to ask someone else. But can I save you a dance there!" If pressed to reveal who the lucky invitee might be, I'd smile and say "You'll have to wait and see." Later, if necessary, you can protest that your actual invitee beat you to the punch and asked you first (which is true).

Aquagirl
3/22/2012 10:10 AM EST
cmburns, in your scenario, the boy's feelings are important and the girl's aren't.

In living our lives, we are going to cause hurt to people. There are going to be romantic partners we are not interested in, people who would like to attend our parties or weddings whom we do not want to invite for whatever reason, people who would like to be friends with us who we don't really care much for. I look at obligations to such people as negative not positive. IOW, we owe it to them NOT to do certain things (not to mention the party in their presence, not to be cruel in turning them down, etc) but we don't owe it to them to DO things (invite them, accept invitations). We should minimize the hurt but not adapt our own lives to prevent the hurt. And where does that stop? If someone wants to kiss me, must I kiss him? It will hurt his feelings if I don't. What about sex? He might feel rejected if I say no. And marriage proposals, I imagine it's fairly devastating to be turned down on one of those!

st00pidpants
3/22/2012 10:12 AM EST
She could (if you want to operate within the limits set out by Miss Manners in this column) tell him she's terribly sorry, but she's already going with someone. If she goes with someone, she's covered. If she ends up not going with anyone or not going at all, she can say that it fell through and she doesn't want to talk about it. Yes, they're white lies, but face is save and feelings are spared all around.

LookielouE1705
3/22/2012 10:29 AM EST
White lies are acceptable only when the harm of telling the truth would be greater than the wrongness of the lie. This is rarely the case; I believe Miss Manners goes to some effort to avoid white lies, but technically truthful - yet misleading - statements are not much better.

In these circumstances a white lie is actually harmful to its recipient, because it inspires false hope in the suitor. The appropriate response is "I'm sorry, but I am not interested in going to the dance with you." As a male who was rejected repeatedly in high school, I'm appreciative that the girls in question did not mislead me about my chances, out of some impulse to toxic niceness.

This brings me to cmburns2: if being turned down by a potential dance escort is the worst thing that happens to a high school boy, he should consider himself lucky.

MarriedMann
3/22/2012 1:56 PM EST
YES! Right on. There is NOTHING WORSE than asking a girl or being with a girl (oh BTW I am a guy) who is just on for the ride or just there to be nice. Not that I was the great catch but after sufficient never gatting past first base with a date, I busted out of the rut, came into my own, married 25 years ago, have grown old and love my dear wife even more than when we first met.

So, please girls, just say no if you want to say no. It is NOT RUDE -- it is truthful.

chased_faery
3/22/2012 2:00 PM EST
From the other side of the table..
I asked a guy out in middle school, and he politely said, "No, but I'm flattered you thought of me." And he never mentioned it again, and he didn't go laugh about it and telling all of his friends. No one ever knew. To this day I respect him for that.

I do disagree with MM here, which is not something I recall having ever said before. Etiquette does not and should not require accepting a date one does not want to go on. If this were an adult, she would advise the lady to say no thank you and absolve her of any requirement to give a reason. Why should a teenager be any different? "I'm sorry, I have other plans" is a perfectly acceptable response. Surely she has someone in mind, and that constitutes a plan. If that plan falls through and she ends up not going, then that does not make her untruthful.

bigclaw
3/22/2012 2:50 PM EST
This makes no sense. Bascially the girl has only the choice of being rude or not being rude. The boy on the other hand, gets to choose who he asks.

The only real solution is for girls to immediately ask the boy they want to go with. Then the boy can be the rude one who declines.

But our culture favors the boy-ask model -- but I find it it difficult to agree with Miss Manners on this one. Girls should get to decide who to accept (just as boys get to decide who to ask). Otherwise, manners only subjugate them to the boy's will.

AnaTeresa
3/22/2012 9:53 AM EST
And funny enough, I actually broke MM rule just last week. I had agreed to meet someone for coffee after chatting on match.com. After initial agreement and setting a date, he starting raising red flags in some of his comments, so I gently broke the date with a few days notice. And then I went out with someone else on that night. Whoops, sorry MM. Forgot that women were not supposed to have agency!

Milkthegoat
3/22/2012 9:46 AM EST
And one other thing. MM's advice is to say either say "yes" and go, or say "no" and sit home (b/c it's rude to want to turn others down while you wait for your unrequited love interest to ask you). The obvious rhetorical q then becomes: Does that obligate the young man (who was turned down) to also sit at home? Does that mean he can't make plans to go with anyone else either? Of course not. Not unless you want to have a double standard.

AKChild
3/22/2012 8:45 AM EST
Reposted from CH's column (I take it this means Carolyn Hax!):

Hum...indeed. Since when is it rude to have preferences? What if she had a boyfriend and the first person who asked her was not her boyfriend? The only rudeness is dependent on how she responded to the first invitation. If she said, "sorry, I'd rather not go with you," that could be perfectly reasonable. If she said, "I don't intend to go to the dance." or "Gross...get away from me!" That's rude.

hbc1
3/22/2012 8:36 AM EST
LW1: Just adding my voice to the chorus of "that can't possibly what etiquette demands, and if it does, I'm going to ignore it in good conscience." I mean, really. Where is the line as far as the logic goes? Is it only for poor widdle teenagers, or does a middle aged woman have to forgo a night at the symphony if asked by someone she doesn't like? Is it only true for single night events, or does someone have to forgo an entire lecture series because someone they don't want to sit with brought it to their attention? If a woman is proposed to by a man she doesn't wish to marry, is it him or singlehood forever?

justvisiting73
3/22/2012 8:59 AM EST
Is Miss Manners under the impression that the girl declined with some excuse indicating she wouldn't be able to go at all? Because her response makes zero sense to me otherwise. I didn't get asked to a whole lot of dances in high school, but being someone's pity date would have been miserable. Besides, learning how to cope with rejection is a valuable life skill - and one best absorbed before one has to deal with college applications or job offers.

angelas1
3/22/2012 9:15 AM EST
MM has let her fondness for Jane Austen influence her thinking: at the Netherfield Ball, Elizabeth couldn't dance with anyone because after refusing Mr. Collins, accepting another invitation would have been rude. We aren't in the Regency period any more, MM.

thespeedytomato
3/22/2012 8:38 AM EST
Not wanting to should always be reason enough for anyone -- male or female-- to turn down a date. Aside from the obvious problems with Miss Manner's advice on this point, which have already been enumerated by other commenters, it seems very unfair to a gentleman to accept his invitation because it was the first, only to later reveal (either explicitly or through future rejections) that you had no interest beyond wanting to attend that particular event.

AlsoCuteAndFluffy
3/22/2012 5:44 PM EST
Also, the idea that you should date the nerdy guy because he's going to be successful later: what a terrible thing to say. Yes, my husband was the nerdy guy who ended up being successful later. Guess what? He's still a huge nerd. If you don't love nerdiness, it's not going to change. Money doesn't buy happiness.

Plus, there are plenty of nerdy, awkward girls (and boys) like me who LIKE the nerdy boys (and girls) for being nerdy and grow up to marry those guys.

sahmt00
3/22/2012 9:33 PM EST
I think that MM's rule means everyone loses-- the girl is stuck going with a guy she doesn't like, or staying home, and the guy is MUCH more likely to end up taking a girl who isn't interested in him. Taking a date to a formal dance can be expensive, wouldn't it be better to find out the girl doesn't like you before you spend all that money and time on her? Then BOTH of them could be free to go with someone where there is mutual interest, or just go with friends.

EjAe
3/22/2012 4:25 PM EST
And don't forget to teach boys the same lessons. Sympathize with a rejected boy, sure; rejection hurts. But don't tell him that she was rude to say no. That way lies entitlement and its nasty consequences.

Aquagirl
3/22/2012 10:30 AM EST
You're right though JV that if it's the boy's parents (who wrote the letter), they should be helping their son deal with rejection instead of nursing his sense of grievance. The letter puts me in mind of the "nice guy" syndrome, where some men feel that they deserve a mate just by virtue of not being an abusive jerk. Maybe that attitude starts with parents who give a kid a sense of entitlement that they should never be turned down for dates.

JetlaggedExpat
3/22/2012 6:42 AM EST
I asked a boy to my junior prom. He said no, then went with someone else. Honestly, when I look back at various "high school slights," that one doesn't even make the list. I was good friends with both; I remained so for several years after high school.

I understand the principle behind the rule. If you turn down an invitation to a specific event, and then accept another invitation to the same event, that makes it very hard for Inviter #1 not to take the rejection personally. But... that's kind of life, too. As an adult, I've also had guys say, "let's keep this casual, I'm really not looking for an exclusive relationship". Were they then banned from forming exclusive relationships with any other woman for as long as we were still in the same social circle, so that I could keep up the pretense that it wasn't me, it was them?

And like others have said already, I have a really hard time with the notion that if you want to go to an event, you have to go with the first person who asks you. Especially coming from an etiquette authority who swears up and down that someone sending you a "save the date" card does not, in fact, put a hold on that date and prevent you from making other plans.

Neon Tetra
3/22/2012 12:02 PM EST
If people operated according to MM's instructions, there would be no proms at all. Unpopular boys would have long ago figured out how to get pre-emptive revenge: On the first day of the school year, the unpopular boy asks every girl to be his date. Every girl, one after another, will say no and thus the pool of potential prom-goers shrinks to nothing.

Hope everyone saw the comment about Jane Austen and the Netherfield Ball - even though that was about only one dance at the ball itself.

Oh, and surprise!

westbayjane
3/22/2012 4:31 PM EST
I firmly believe that this letter has not been printed in its entirety, and that Miss Manners' response is appropriate given the (omitted) circumstances. I hope the editing error will be quickly remedied. In the meantime, Miss Manners has my sympathy for the discomfort of having her words taken out of context.

To support this view, she was asked last year "Would you have advice on how to decline an invitation to the school dance... If you say no to a potential date, does etiquette mean you should not go at all?" and she responded...

(from April 2010 - Shaneski posted this)

Dear Miss Manners: My freshman daughter in high school has received several offers to the homecoming dance. She said yes to the first offer, although she knew another boy she liked (and we did, too) had attempted to contact her.

She said she didn't realize the conversation with the first boy would end in an invitation, and she didn't want to hurt him. We know this boy's family and agree that it would be best to go on the date she has accepted.

This situation might come up again. Would you have advice on how to decline an invitation to the school dance, which I think is different from a regular date because everyone wants to go?

If you say no to a potential date, does etiquette mean you should not go at all? My only advice was "don't answer the phone three weeks before a dance and only call back the boy you want."

There are a lot of limitations with this advice. This is a situation in which I think it is hard to juggle getting what you want with being kind.

Is 14 too old for her to say, "I have to ask my parents first"? This still doesn't help because we wouldn't want to hurt a boy's feelings just to wait for another offer.

Gentle Reader: Your daughter is not too young to learn how to say no to someone who admires her. It will save you, as well as her, a lot of grief later.

And although Miss Manners commends your and her desire to avoid hurting anyone's feelings, you both need to recognize that not all hurt feelings can be avoided.

Hurting someone's feelings by making it clear that the young lady is waiting for a better offer would indeed be bad. But everyone, even a vulnerable young gentleman in high school, has to learn to deal with whatever hurt is felt if an invitation is declined or a romantic impulse unrequited.

The chief way to avoid rudeness when declining is not to give any excuse. This is also a way to avoid easily detected falsehoods. She need only say, "You're so nice to ask me, but I'm afraid I can't."

If the petitioner's mother has not taught him the danger, as well as the rudeness, of asking why not, she should say merely, "I'm sorry, but I have other plans." Even if the other plans are to wait for a more desirable young gentleman to ask.

westbayjane
3/22/2012 5:55 PM EST
Shaneski, I don't think it's exactly the same letter, but the question in both letters appears to be the same (i.e., How do I politely decline an invitation to an event I'm hoping to attend with someone else?) which makes me think there must be information missing from today's letter. Today, Miss Manners says "...in theory, she should be able to do *this* if he would never find out. Then ask her how she would decline without being unkind or untruthful. And remind her that there are no secrets in high school." But what is the *this*? I suspect the daughter made up some sort of excuse or lie and then she got caught, and Miss Manners is saying that is rude to make up a lie especially when the person you're lying to is going to find out, and instead you should "decline without being unkind or untruthful."

EjAe
3/22/2012 1:45 PM EST
It's not necessarily a misunderstanding, except perhaps of what century we're in. Just because it's to a dance SHOULDN'T change the advice, but read Evelina (1778). (Or actually, don't.) The heroine is put into very uncomfortable positions because of the rule that she must dance with everyone who asks or no one (and, of course, be thought badly of if she says yes to the wrong person, whether or not she has a choice). And that's just one dance. It turned my stomach even in fiction.

I'm wondering if Martin had a bad day, or thought her emphasis was falling on another included point, i.e., This Is Adulthood or It Will Be Worse Later.

She rarely makes a misstep... It's tempting to suspect the editor made space for appliance ads down the page and cut out some sentences.

Ah, westbayjane made the same point.

Martin's gifted. This link describes a piece of social decoding that's proven very useful over the years.

Annnnnnd here's the linked piece.

Oh, and I read the classic 1914 kids' book "Penrod" a very long time ago, so I'd forgotten about this scene - grin. (In the book, Penrod has a reputation as a big troublemaker in general - not with girls, per se.)

washerwoman
3/22/2012 7:30 PM EST
I keep mentally replaying the scene in "Penrod" by Booth Tarkington, when the girl was so disappointed that Penrod had invited her instead of ANYBODY else, she sobbed "I accept," then her mother bundled her back inside the house, still crying uncontrollably. She was his last choice too IIRC.

________________________________________

You can read it here - it's from Chapter 12.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/402/402-h/402-h.htm

Get this - the dance is a cotillion (spelled "cotillon" here) - and Penrod is only eleven. One reason - probably the ONLY reason - the girl has to accept his invitation or not go at all is that she's only...eight!

Quote:

"We are apt to forget that there are actually times of life when too much youth is a handicap. Miss Rennsdale was beautiful; she danced like a premiere; she had every charm but age. On that account alone had she been allowed so much time to prepare to receive callers that it was only by the most manful efforts she could keep her lip from trembling."

Back in the Dark Ages (1970) us cavemen knew the cave women could say "No". It was horrible I tell you, simply horrible.

Um, it was true in the 1950s and long before that I'm sure.

Lori OrXsXaXiXn clipped me like a parakeet in 1970.

Every woman I've approached in the years since has been grateful to her.

I'm much more grateful than they are, *eternally* indebted.

I have concluded that Lenona is a woman.

Don't worry. They'll say "I don't recall dumping poop." and it'll be okay.

http://www.wnd.com/2016/10/hillary-bus-caught-illegally-dumping-poop-in-street/

All Hillary has to do is store the poop on a private server at home, and all will be good!

Meanwhile, voter fraud NEVER happens!

http://www.mrctv.org/blog/breaking-clinton-operatives-plan-voter-fraud-while-obama-denies-corruption

More cases of The Stuff That Never Happens (TM):

dailysignal.com/2016/10/17/here-are-3-new-cases-of-voter-fraud-governments-must-ensure-vote-integrity-as-election-day-looms/

Here's the real link:

http://dailysignal.com/2016/10/17/here-are-3-new-cases-of-voter-fraud-governments-must-ensure-vote-integrity-as-election-day-looms/

I have to say, I'm still suspicious about the idea that something got cut out of the 2012 MM column, since from the way she responded, one MIGHT assume that the girl in question was not in fact doing anything more than saying "sorry, I can't accept."

BTW, I tried searching on some key phrases from the column and I couldn't find any other newspapers that had anything different from what was in the WaPo.

And...yes, it seems that even the mothers of girls DID used to put restrictions like that on their daughters. From the Straight Dope Board (another thread on the same MM column):

03-22-2012, 02:01 PM
TheChileanBlob

"Well, maybe that used to be a thing, because my mom told me that when I was in high school in the 80s. Some creepy dude asked me to a dance and I turned him down, and my mom said I couldn't go with anyone else. WTF? So it's either Rapey McStalker or no one?"

(Also, I seem to remember that either my grandmother - or her mother? - went through the same ordeal. Or, at least, she was taught that rule. For my grandmother, that would have been in the early 1930s.)

And here's a comment from Straight Dope I didn't get (of course, I noticed the JWT connection):

03-23-2012, 10:24 PM
JWT Kottekoe

"A friend of mine once asked Susie to the dance. Susie told him, 'Sorry, Lisa is staying at my house so she has an excuse in case JWT asks her to the dance.' Would Miss Manners approve of my 'friend' telling me that?"