Whatever happened to the idea that parents should show basic maturity and tell their still immature teenage children "It's time to turn off the TV, computer, stereo, lights, . . . and go to bed." ?

Ahhhh! Parents acting like responsible adults? What a quaint idea. Make school starting times later and children will just stay up later (unless their parents act like adults and set and enforce some behavioral standards at home).

We've had research like this for quite awhile, suggestions that adolescents don't learn well in early mornings.

But throughout our culture, there's an impulse to lower the thresholds of discipline... To make things easier for students and teachers and investors and workers and everyone in every context. This might not be a universally good thing.

I remember flirting (well, just chatting earnestly) with a young doctor in an ICU once. Everything was going nicely for her patients, so we shared a few moments of pleasant conversation. I'd noted that she'd been on the floor for at least fourteen hours, as I'd seen her there the night before. She said "14? More like 31!" Then came 2½ more minutes of chitchit and chatchat... When she quite abruptly turned away with a clipboard and got back to work. In any other context it would have been weird.

Doctors are taught through long shifts to excel even when they're not at their best.

Adolescents need to understand that they're expected to do well even when civilization doesn't conform to preferred schedules.

Is that a problem?

I regret the comma in paragraph two.

I mean...

> ...Adolescent school start times
> should not be haphazardly maneuvered
> to deal with public concerns like
> traffic congestion.

...Well Jeez, guys... If safe & efficient transportation --for the students as well as the rest of society-- isn't a valid concern, what choices will we be permitted to consider?

Some of us are getting tired of being told we need to make sacrifices for the chidwin.

Back in the days of neigborhood based schools, before mandatory bussing to acheive racial balance (whatever the hell that means) there didnt seem to be a problem with an 8:30 start time for everyone.

When you have to run a large fleet of busses and service three or for different schools with them, start times must necessarily be staggered. Some of those poor kids can end up on the bus two hours each way in rural areas.

There is no good solution, but as Crid says, having high school kids suck it up and grow a pair seems the least objectionable alternative.

And I apologize in advance, but only once, for all my punctuation and spelling errors.

That's funny. Service schools, such as Naval Nuclear Power School, run long hours and start early, actually fail 10 to 20% of each class to send to other trades, but do not seem to have trouble turning out expert operators for the fleet.
Have you seen the survey of exchange students regarding the differences between American and foreign schools?
It's not just the hours.

Life is not fair.

That's all a teenager needs to know and acknowledge. Especially in their world of tweets and twerks.

Additionally, the majority of parents of teens do not even attempt to nudge must less control their teens behavior or attitudes. They can build robots but not vacuum or turn on a crockpot?

I understand. A good portion of my life was spent in a battle w/kids (typically their Mothers). I was and am not a person w/empathy for typical teenage issues.

I do feel sorry for them w/home and school environments of drugs, whores, and peer pressure to become the above. I've seen Asian hookers dress more conservatively. (I have a hard time not asking if ________ is less than $50.)

However, you never know what trivial thing you do that makes a lasting impression down the road so that's your job as a parent. Life if not fair so _____________________ .

The fact that my middle schoolers have actual (and early!) bedtimes is a constant source of angst for them. No, my kids should not have to be in school till 5pm just because some teens would rather stay up late and sleep late. You're becoming adults, act like it. Or, suck it up, buttercup, as I prefer to say. I'm passing meds by 645 am, you can sit on a bus by 7.

If they can't cope with waking up in the morning how will they ever get a job? How will they cope with the crushing reality most of us work for money not because it is fun or an interesting way to pass the days away?

Whatever happened to the idea that parents should show basic maturity and tell their still immature teenage children "It's time to turn off the TV, computer, stereo, lights, . . . and go to bed." ?

In Wendy's talk, she explained that the biological clock of a teenager is such that they aren't tired before 11 or so.

I would often like to go to bed earlier -- and this was especially true when I was in the thick of writing this book I just turned in. But I couldn't get to bed earlier -- my body just wasn't ready for sleep. And I quit drinking wine and would not drink coffee late in the day to try to get to bed earlier, along with trying breathing measures to try to force myself to fall asleep. No go-ski.

I would have thought what some of you are voicing above, but what Wendy explains about the sleep schedule of a teen's body is persuasive. Her talk should be out in a few weeks -- along with mine.

And the "suck it up, buttercup" thing is all good -- but you can't make up for sleep you need and didn't get just by saying that.

I included in this book very important research on sleep, like about how it allows our brains to shrink enough that cerebrospinal fluid can get through to "clean" out neural trash.

What we don't want is people who lack sleep -- teens or otherwise -- driving.

"If they can't cope with waking up in the morning how will they ever get a job"

You do what I did---I got paid extra for 2nd shift and night work when I left home at 18. I was making a nice $14 an hour and could afford to rent a crummy room from someone with my own bathroom!

Amy, you have an ADHD brain. ADHD brains are notorious bad early risers, many actually seem most productive as night owls. No matter how much you'll try you most likely will never have a normal sleep wake cycle.

Likewise my bipolar brain does not, and can not follow a normal 24 hour sleep/wake cycle. Well it can---if I take lithium (it is show to reset the circadian rhythm on a cellular level). One day I decided to stop listening to people who kept insisting I SHOULD be able to wake up earlier and it was all just a discipline problem. In that aspect I'm glad my mother sympathized and worked around me.

From what I recall in highschool we didn't learn anything at 7 am. We just went over what the school had planned for us that day. Personally I think school is already too long and that 7 am time is more about making it convenient for parents and administrators.

> what Wendy explains about the
> sleep schedule of a teen's body
> is persuasive.

..Or it isn't persuasive.

This is what we, on Planet Maturia, call a "values" decision.

Drivers —whether teenage or older— are expected to know their limits and behave responsibly.

I used to get in trouble for hitchhiking rather than taking those Godforsaken buses.

(It was totally worth it.)

So let me see if I have the math right:

- teen's body is such that they don't get tired till 11 or so
- teen gets up too early and is sleep deprived
- teen still stays up till 11?

I suspect that if said teen were on a dairy farm, and had to be up to milk the cows at 4am, they'd be in bed an awful lot earlier than 11. Oh, and a 7:11 am start time for school? not a problem.

Yes. Milking cows. Not learning algebra. Can't notice the difference?

"Drivers —whether teenage or older— are expected to know their limits and behave responsibly."

Except what if they biologically can't because their brains aren't there yet? Personally I'm of the opinion teens shouldn't even be on the road. But that's a separate topic.

I can accept your claim that ADHD and bipolar people are more likely to have problems getting up in the morning, Ppen. But most of us aren't ADHD or bipolar. As Crid said, the argument isn't persuasive.

How much do you want to bet the researchers are night owls?

> Except what if they biologically
> can't because their brains aren't
> there yet?

Then they shouldn't be on the road... Just as when they've been drinking, or have broken their right-side (accellerator!) hipbones with that Macarena dance that's so popular with the kids nowadays, the one that combining the old-fashioned "Hokey-Pokey" of yesteryear with the post-modern "Twerk" from the inner city.

Don't pretend this is between a rock and a hard place. We get it. People who can't drive safely shouldn't drive. State motorist laws and manuals are explicit about this.

I brought it up ADHD and bipolar brains Ben, because they think part of the reason we can't have a normal sleep wake cycle is because we have an underdeveloped frontal lobe. Guess who has the same problem? I dont know....a group called teens.

Of course I know most fucking adults don't have that problem But that isn't the point of this post is it?

I think this one is (yet) another example of Amy's nearly erotic fascination with anything that comes in a "New Studies Show That…™" wrapper.

Also, given Pittsburgh's unique status as a testbed for driverless cars, this story makes me wonder if some Bright Young Thing at RAND is angling for a job at Uber.

OOOOR, parents could send their teenagers to bed early enough to get a good night's sleep. Remember when parents were in charge?

From what I recall in highschool we didn't learn anything at 7 am. We just went over what the school had planned for us that day. Personally I think school is already too long and that 7 am time is more about making it convenient for parents and administrators. ~ Ppen at November 8, 2016 6:18 AM

I had Chemistry I at 7:30am. I used to fall asleep during that class. The teacher would then wake me up, ask me a question, and if I got it right, I could go back to sleep. I slept a lot during that class, passed it, and don't remember a thing about it today.

R&T:

Uber Has Apparently Ordered $10 Billion Worth of Mercedes S-Class Sedans

Uber and Volvo put $300M into building self-driving cars ready for sale by 2021

'OOOOR, parents could send their teenagers to bed early enough to get a good night's sleep. Remember when parents were in charge?"

Actually I bet you that even if parents did this---it wouldn't solve the issue. Healthy adults have a circadian rhythm that you can play around with up and down a bit from a naturally set point most adult brains seem to operate under.

There are people like myself who don't have a circadian rhythm that follows 24 hour set pattern and even if you put me to bed earlier I still woudln't necessarily get up earlier. Eventually my pattern reverts back to what is normal for me.

Teens do learn better at certain points during the day. However logistics wise it isn't worth it to the rest of the world to work around their sleep/wake cycle. But I hate how this always turns into a "discipline" problem i.e. they're not learning as well in the early am because they aren't "disciplined" enough.

> it wouldn't solve the issue.

Oh, take the point.

> Healthy adults have a
> circadian rhythm

Has popular chatter about healthy-this and healthy-that ever seemed trite to you?

Health is not the highest virtue. The vernacular "Healthy" probably isn't in the top ten.

Well when socialized medicine comes that you and the rest of us will have to pay for I'm sure you'll be a.o.k that health isn't the highest virtue.

This, this is the cuntliness of the left in its fullest, most fragrant flower:

Listen, we're going to make you pay for our self-aggrandizing fantasies no matter what, so you may as well just open your wallets....

But in the times ahead, bring me ANYTHING but your tears.

"When socialized medicine comes."

It is clear that nobody commenting here has an actual teenager. I do. She is a junior, which is literally the worst year of a modern high school student's life. It is the hardest year they will face. She is a highly motivated AP student with a very high rank. This means hours, and hours of homework. She isn't up late downloading porn or cat videos, and neither are her friends. They work all the time. It isn't about lack of parental discipline and it is certainly not about bedtimes, which are unenforceable once you enter high school. She is exhausted all the time and could and does sleep anywhere and anytime she gets the chance. A late arrival will make no difference to her. Going to school at 8:30 only pushes the problem back, it doesn't give her anymore hours in the day.

Also, keep in mind that is only when actual school starts. If your kid is a swimmer, in football, or basketball all of those sports train in the morning. I know that swimmers have to be on deck at 5:15 am. There are also tutoring sessions that begin at 6:30. An active, engaged student is busy all the time and tired all of the time. Late arrival won't change any of that. Your child will either rise to the challenge or they won't, and that is where personal discipline comes into play.

Good points all around, but if a teen were to move to another school where the time zone is different by 6 hours, he/she would adjust quickly enough, so what's the difference?

Yes. Milking cows. Not learning algebra. Can't notice the difference?

I know this was before your time, but there was a time when one got up to milk the cows, then go to school.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thank you Sheep Mom. And sorry Ppen, as I said I find you argument unpersuasive. There are plenty of morning people and plenty of night owls no matter their age. 'Teens' are not significantly different from the general populace.

If schools are really concerned about education then start times are the least of their worries. This is rearranging the chairs while the ship sinks thinking. Better discipline (in general not on this issue), actually challenging classes, and instructors who actually know their material are far more effective ways to improve outcomes than fiddling with the start of class. You may as well argue that red or blue chairs are more educational to sit in. Maybe one is. But the differences are so small as to be irrelevant compared to other factors.

IRA: "I suspect that if said teen were on a dairy farm, and had to be up to milk the cows at 4am, they'd be in bed an awful lot earlier than 11."

I have never in my life met a single teenager who aspires to a career in milking cows.

There's a reason why almost nobody starts work at 4 AM, and why it's difficult for many employers to find employees happy to work evening and night shifts, and why the vast majority of American workers jam roads and freeways at around 7 AM and 5 PM. What's kind of surprising is that so few intelligent adults have no clue about why that is. It isn't discipline, and it isn't because they love the opportunity to relax and socialize in rush hour traffic.

Over the past several decades that I've been an American worker various politicians, bureaucrats and corporate honchos have suggested staggering start times between 3 AM and 12 PM to relieve traffic congestion, shorten commute times, decrease fuel consumption and air pollution, and lower stress. It never happens because the reaction from responsible, mature, disciplined adult workers is to bitch and whine like a bunch of spoiled teenagers.

Neurobiology - biological clocks and rhythms, the effects of light and dark, the cyclic release of melatonin and other hormones - is what it is. And in any big city every Monday through Friday between about 6:30 - 8:30 AM and about 4:00 - 6:30 PM you can witness one of its effects as thousands of responsible adults, in full submission to their biological clocks, jam-pack the roads. A stressful, one-hour-plus crawl to and from work could be a casual 20 minute drive including a stop at Starbucks if they started work two or three hours earlier or later. Almost no one will do it. But they will commend themselves for their admirable maturity and discipline of starting work at the same time as almost everybody else.

Biology is what it is. I've had the opportunity to observe the sleep-wake cycles of thousands of adolescents over the past several years, and I can tell you: adolescent brains are different than adult brains.

> Well when socialized medicine
> comes that you and the rest of
> us will have to pay for

I don't think for moment, not for a fleeting midnight microsecond, that you believe "socialized medicine" is going to cost you a red goddam penny.

...That's why you like to describe it so impersonally as inevitable: When it comes, with no persuasion or exchange or involvement in the lives of others. This wealth will simply appear.

And doctors, the three brightest kids from every high school class, will do their absolute best work for everyone, even the poorest of the poor, without special compensation... Because socialized medicine will have "come"... So then people will get stuff they haven't paid for.

How's Obamacare working out for you, Ppen? Have you seen any of the stories out of Venezuela this week?

We were passing through the wards of a large public hospital in Valencia, a city of roughly a million people, a hundred miles west of Caracas. The hallways were dim and stifling, thick with a frightening stench. Some were full of patients waiting silently in long lines outside exam rooms. Others were dark and deserted, with the overhead lighting ripped out.

---------

Nestor spoke slowly, his voice uninflected. His skin was waxy. The wounds to his arm and chest were uncovered, half healed, dark with dried blood. There was a saline drip in his right arm and, at the foot of his bed, an improvised contraption, made from twine and an old one-litre plastic bottle, whose purpose I couldn’t figure out.

Did the hospital provide the saline?

No. Grace brought it. She also brought food, water, and, when she could find them, bandages, pain medication, antibiotics. These things were available only on the black market, at high prices, and Grace’s job, in a warehouse, paid less than a dollar a day.

That "well" is a nice touch... Folksy and relaxed.

lenona: "...but if a teen were to move to another school where the time zone is different by 6 hours, he/she would adjust quickly enough, so what's the difference?"

That's a good question. The difference is the effect that sunrise and sunset have on the release and levels of melatonin and other hormones, and on other functions in the brain. The time zone may be different by six hours, but a person's sleep-wake cycle will pretty quickly adjust and be similar to what it was relative to sunrise and sunset.

The other day daylight saving time ended and we set the clocks back one hour. All the kids where I work woke up that morning about one hour earlier by the mechanical clock, but at about the same time as usual relative to sunrise.

She is a junior, which is literally the worst year of a modern high school student's life. It is the hardest year they will face. She is a highly motivated AP student with a very high rank. This means hours, and hours of homework. She isn't up late downloading porn or cat videos, and neither are her friends. They work all the time.

I was a high schooler like that, and I'd have really appreciated a later start-time, to be honest. AP math classes were 0 hour in my school (meaning they started an hour earlier than the normal day, so, 7am). And all extracurricular music stuff had to meet in the mornings too, so that started at 6 am. I did sports, so I was at school til about 6, after which I had about 5 hours of homework. So midnight bedtime, 4:30 am wake-up time. So 4.5 hours of sleep a night.

Thing is, I can handle 4.5 hours of sleep. I did that in college and grad school. Often, I'd get even less sleep. Difference was, start times tended to be later -- 10am or so, and that made a HUGE difference. I'd be tired, but it wasn't a painful tired. My brain still worked. My circadian rhythm is of the night-owl sort.

That said ... lots of my friends in high school needed to hold after-school jobs, which, by law, couldn't keep them too late at night. So early school start times were WAY better for them, so they could get to work by 3:30 or 4, get 4 hours in and then do homework.

This is a long-winded way of saying there's no good solution for everyone. If taxpayer dollars weren't an issue, I'd be all for allowing looser class schedules (like college) for high schoolers so they could customize their start time. But, due to busing and the fact we can't double the teaching staff of all public high schools, that's probably not possible.

...GOD am I glad high school is over. And that my current job offers flexible start times.

Ben: "'Teens' are not significantly different from the general populace."

Adolescents' brains are significantly different from adult brains, in the way that Ppen stated above. For a 15-year-old, it will be about 10 more years before his brain is physically (and functionally) an adult brain.

> Adolescents' brains are significantly
> different from adult brains

Don't play fast and loose with the word "significant."

And 20 years from now it will take 15 years "before his brain is physically (and functionally) an adult brain." You are quoting some common but very poorly done science. The brain is a plastic organ. It changes quite significantly based on the environment.

And as for your driving story, you do realize most employers don't offer flexible start times. People drive to work when their employer requires them to be there. I've never found it hard to hire off shift workers. But for ease of management we typically insist everyone come in at the same time. Night shift is a different story.

"That "well" is a nice touch... Folksy and relaxed."

Or maybe you interpreted it wrong and I was trying to be ominous?

I have never, in the history of this blog, said I was "for" socialized medicine. In fact I rarely comment on the topic because I know how rabid about it people get on here and how much in denial they are thinking that Obamacare will eventually be repealed.

If you dare suggest that it is an inevitable fact well it means you are a folksy ~liberal~ bent on spending other peoples money. Or maybe....perhaps...I see it on the horizon and stating that it is coming due to demographic shifts?

As such yes, to me other peoples health is a virtue I am most concerned about (and disclaimer because I will be accused of this ***no at this point I don't want to legislate anything health related***).

There's that "well" again.

What "demographic shift" could possibly, possibly portend the payment of other people's medical bills in high style?

Seriously... Tell us. Tell us why you think some incoming sliver of humanity will be taking good care of distant strangers, especially at this most intimate intersection of wealth & well-being.

"Inevitable fact." [Translation: not a fact.]

You call to mind this Sunday description of Vox, which suggests your folly is a generational thing (remember my comment the other day about the Boomer's feckless successors?):

[B]y keeping the focus on “explanation” rather than “discussion,” one can avoid difficult questions that might force the interrogation of one’s preconceptions.

Tell us more. We have so, so much to learn.

Ben: And as for your driving story, you do realize most employers don't offer flexible start times. People drive to work when their employer requires them to be there.

I knew somebody was going to say that. Why do you think most employers prefer to start work at around the same time as their employees do, and around the same time as most other employers and their employees? Could it be because most employers are subject to the same biological cycles as most of their employees are?

I've never found it hard to hire off shift workers. But for ease of management we typically insist everyone come in at the same time. Night shift is a different story.

Lucky you. But how do you know it's not hard to hire off shift workers if you're not trying to hire them? I can understand that starting everyone at the same time could make management easier. Why not start everyone at 0500 or 1000, instead of at the same time as everyone else jamming the roads?

Why is night shift a different story? It's a different story where I work too; we're always short of staff at night. As someone who prefers to work the later hours, I don't mind that; it's part of the reason I work 30-36 hours (3 or 4 days) a week and earn almost twice as much as my 40 hour/5 day per week counterparts on the day shift. I like to think part of the difference in pay is attributable to my experience, knowledge and expertise in the field, but the difference is big enough that I think my willingness to work the late hours is getting me more than just the shift premiums.

The brain is a plastic organ. It changes quite significantly based on the environment.

This is true - beginning even before birth. A 5-year-old's still-developing brain and capabilities are a lot different than a 10-year-old's and a 15-year-old's, just like the rest of their still-developing bodies are different. And a 15-year-old's still-developing brain and capabilities are different than a 25-year-old's, just like the rest of their still-developing bodies are different.

You are quoting some common but very poorly done science.

What well done science are you basing your conclusions on?

And 20 years from now it will take 15 years "before his brain is physically (and functionally) an adult brain."

And how do you know that? Although I don't expect to be working in my current field 20 years from now, this topic is still very interesting to me; I'd really like to know.

"In Wendy's talk, she explained that the biological clock of a teenager is such that they aren't tired before 11 or so."

So this was not a "problem" any time during the last 4,000 years (give or take a thousand)? Did your Grand Parents sleep in?

Or is it a problem because "Wendy" said so.

Teenagers used to have to work at home or outside the home, but NOW its a problem if teenagers are made to go to bed before 11PM. Is this a "first" world problem due to social media?

Sure. (At least they don't have to walk to school uphill both ways in the snow.)

Again we have to modify society for the current generation. Are there gender pronouns we should be using here? Safe spaces needed?

Ppen: One day I decided to stop listening to people who kept insisting I SHOULD be able to wake up earlier and it was all just a discipline problem.

Except what if they biologically can't because their brains aren't there yet?

...an underdeveloped frontal lobe. Guess who has the same problem? I dont know....a group called teens.

Maybe not so much an underdeveloped frontal lobe as undeveloped neurocircuits between the frontal lobe and other parts of the brain. This falls under the concept of neuroplasticity. It takes experience over time for this to develop, and adolescents just aren't there yet. That's why they can do and understand amazingly complex things, but still act like adolescents, with all their poor judgment, lack of impulse control, emotional dysregulation, gullibility and lack of common sense. They're smart, enthusiastic, awesome people who often do things that make you shake your head and ask, "Why?" And they answer, "I don't know," and they honestly don't.

Of course I know most fucking adults don't have that problem But that isn't the point of this post is it? == That's what I thought too.

Teens do learn better at certain points during the day... But I hate how this always turns into a "discipline" problem i.e. they're not learning as well in the early am because they aren't "disciplined" enough.

All correct. Thank you, Ppen.

I had a paper route. All the papers had to be delivered by... I forget what time it was exactly, around 7am. This meant getting up at 6, getting dressed and showered, walking around the neighborhood tossing papers. Got back, ate breakfast, and went to school which started around 8 or 830 or whatever.

Had to get up earlier if it was rainy to put them in paper bags.

Went to bed between 9 and 10.

My point being if you have stuff needing to get done early, you go to bed earlier. Be it paper routes or school.

Even before my route I'd get up early to jog or walk sometimes.

"Why do you think most employers prefer to start work at around the same time as their employees do, and around the same time as most other employers and their employees? Could it be because most employers are subject to the same biological cycles as most of their employees are?"

Umm, to answer your last question no. That really isn't relevant. We work standard hours so we are all working at the same time. Hence the term standard hours. There are a lot of efficiency gains by having those who buy, those who sell, and your coworkers working at the same time. Now as to which hours are standard hours a lot of it is government driven. If you need to see the clerk or talk to a representative you work on their schedule. And then it rolls down hill.

"But how do you know it's not hard to hire off shift workers if you're not trying to hire them?"

Because I've hired them. I've also been involved with setting schedules for other people. And yes, people whine about getting up before others. But employees whine in general. It's not a big deal.

"Why not start everyone at 0500 or 1000, instead of at the same time as everyone else jamming the roads?"

If you deal with international business this is exactly what happens. If you want to make that sale you will be up when your customers are shopping. Such is life. And it isn't just about your organization. You have to work with other companies in your area typically. Hence everyone works the same hours.

"And a 15-year-old's still-developing brain and capabilities are different than a 25-year-old's, just like the rest of their still-developing bodies are different."

And a 35 year old's brain is different, and a 45 year old's is different, and a ...

I don't have any papers on hand but you can certainly look up delayed maturity and brain development. In the first world brains are developing the morphology of an adult at increasingly later dates. Mind, these are averages and the bell curve is quite large. But the mean for both psychological maturity and physiological maturity are moving later in life.

If you want some fun reading look up brain shape and oldest living child. I'm afraid a quick google didn't do much for me. But essentially within a geographic area it is possible to pick out the oldest living child or oldest living male child in a family purely by brain shape taken from an MRI. The trick is oldest living. If the eldest sibling dies the next eldest's brain changes to match their deceased sibling. Even in adulthood the brain's morphology is not fixed.

Conan the Grammarian: "OOOOR, parents could send their teenagers to bed early enough to get a good night's sleep. Remember when parents were in charge? ... I had Chemistry I at 7:30am. I used to fall asleep during that class... I slept a lot during that class, passed it, and don't remember a thing about it today."

If your parents were in charge they would have sent you to bed earlier.

"So this was not a "problem" any time during the last 4,000 years (give or take a thousand)? Did your Grand Parents sleep in?"

Did your grand parents have laptops, phones, t.v. that caused an even further shift in the circadian rhythm due to artificial light?

http://journals.lww.com/jrnldbp/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2014&issue=01000&article=00002&type=abstract

A modest (25 min) delay in school start time was associated with significant improvements in sleep duration, daytime sleepiness, mood, and caffeine use. These findings have important implications for public policy and add to research suggesting the health benefits of modifying school schedules to more closely align with adolescents’ circadian rhythms and sleep needs.

I personally would like to see this type of schedule adopted in at risk schools where suggesting "discipline" doesn't take you very far.

If your parents were in charge they would have sent you to bed earlier. ~ Ken R at November 8, 2016 12:24 PM

What do you mean "if?" My parents were in charge of the house, not the teenagers in the house.

And, yes, that made me different from many of my contemporaries who dictated what music was listened to in the car, what television shows were watched in the living room, and what the weekend schedule was like.

I can't understand this endless charade of bogus compassion: "We should make it easier for X to Y."

In whose life has meaningful success come without adjustments and adversity? What does success even mean if society smooths one's path so fastidiously? What innovations, services, goods or courtesies could such a person be equipped to deliver?

...Adolescent school start times should not be haphazardly maneuvered to deal with public concerns like traffic congestion.

Here's the thing: I don't just want children set on "a trajectory for success beyond high school." I want them socialized and integrated in ten thousand other contexts as well.

Wow, lots of "Get off my lawn" on this thread.

Wow, lots of "Get off my lawn" on this thread.

JanetC at November 8, 2016 4:11 PM

What you see as stooged old fogyism from some of us, i see as *born yesterday* thinking from the proponents.

To Amy and apparently several others on this board there is no earthly reason why the next emperor of the universe can't just decree that from here on out, high school and presumably junior high will start at 9 on the dot, and end at 4 (with of course, a one hour break for lunch because of those *oh so fastidious* digestion studies)

Somehow you people seem to be such shallow thinkers that you don't understand that the school start times and end times are an organically evolved ever changing construct, which must take into account, taxpayer preferences, parent preferences, union contracts, allocation of transportation resources, weather, demographic distribution of the student population, federal and state mandated classrom instruction hours, and after school sports programs which need to operate during daylight hours.

You know what the solution is to not liking or being unable to cope with the taxpayer funded public school schedules or anything else you dont like?

A gold star to anyone who says *opt out*

When I was in school class started at 7:28 and you could sign for a few classes that started at 6:45.

When my brother was in junior high, one of the other jr highs had a fire while it was being remodeled during the summer. The school district worked up this crazy 2 shift system until the damage was repaired. My brother had the morning shift which was like 6:10 to noon and the day was something like 12:15 to 6pm.

My bodies preferred clock is awake for 20 hours...sleep for 10, repeat.

My father and step bitch were assholes, if my homework ran late I had to go to bed on time when I wanst tired and not work while waiting to fall asleep and then wake up earlier than usual to do the work.

Even when sent to bed 'early' a person not tired does not fall asleep so there is really no point

If you want to go with the life aint fair argument thats fine, but expect it to be used against you when that sleep deprived teenager nods off at the wheel and kills your wife on her morning commute.

> expect it to be used against you
> when that sleep deprived teenager
> nods off at the wheel and
> kills your wife

Drivers are always, always responsible for their own competence.

Sure they are, but, as they say, life aint fair

And a non drunk, non distracted driver who zoned out/fell asleep isnt getting charged with anything carrying jail time

There's more to integrity than avoiding prosecution, Luj…

…Just ask Hillary.

And nothing says integrity like telling growing minds to fuck off because their biological needs are less important than the convenience of adults, amirite?

Ppen thanks for the information - it fits my experience of myself.

I can do physical tasks at 6 am, but my mind thinking brain doesn't turn on until 10 am.

> because their biological needs
> are less important

This is a minor, essentially trivial, and not-universal wrinkle in human development. It's that's your definition of a "biological need" and being told to "fuck off," you should probably just take your own life... You're far too delicate —too needful of patient handling from people who don't owe you a goddam thing— to make a success out of your life anyway.

Read the paper, Pilgrim. America composed a message to the whinybitches yesterday.

Naw, get the various distances one must travel to attend mandatory "free" school, and how little the schools can afford to provide transport for all the students, it means many must transport themselves.

After all life aint fair and people go to jail for not going to school these days

Suddenly Ppen's casual certitude about socialized medicine is a lot less threatening.

Not to nit pick luj but the vast majority who attend those schools can't drive. They aren't old enough. And yes, no matter the extraneous circumstances if a driver hits someone they are at fault. It isn't complicated.

Not saying the aint at fault, just that you'd have no right to complain as life aint fair