“Long before you can change these people’s minds, you have to get them to acknowledge a world that exists beyond their own television.”

It seems reasonable to me that people who are undecided about a political party, or a candidate, can be persuaded to vote one way or another but if a person has their mind already made up, how likely is it that your arguments — no matter persuasive and compelling you feel they are — are going to change their mind? I’d say the likelihood is somewhere between extremely remote and impossible.

The key difference between a Trump supporter and the rest of us is one of facts: We believe in them, the Trumpers don't.

Which "facts" are they referring to? That transwomen are women and have the right to compete in women's athletic competitions shattering all previous records established by, you know, actual women who are born that way and didn't go from adolescence to adulthood with all the hormonal advantages that men have?

Or perhaps you're referring to the "fact" that a person can exist in some ethereal region between male and female and actually be nonbinary?

Or perhaps you mean the "fact" that all white people are inherently racist and evil. That all men are inherently sexist. And that black people cannot be racist and women cannot be sexist.

> you have to get them to
> acknowledge a world that
> exists beyond their own
> television.”

If they're watching television, they're doomed anyway.

Don't watch television.

In an old Peanuts comic strip, Linus and the gang are at church camp, and after listening to some preacher's apocalyptic sermon, Linus asks, "Did it ever occur to you that you might be wrong?"

Good advice going either way, but not something that seems to have occurred to Elie Mystal.

The dominant communication style of the Left is not intended to persuade. It is intended to get those who dissent from their positions to *shut up*, by making the expression of dissenting opinions very unpleasant or even outright dangerous.

You don't impose control over a society by "listening first, with an open mind" or by viewing those who disagree with you "as co-humans who have different beliefs than you do."

You impose control by shutting down those "different beliefs" and quieting those voices. Most revolutions devolve into totalitarianism - the French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Nazi Revolution, etc. The Americans were lucky, ours did not. Then again, perhaps it is still in the process of devolving.

He's so "siloed" he doesn't realize his positions wouldn't stand up well against truth, either. Politics makes people stupid.

Oh please do, they wont change minds, but they will change wills, and change who or if someone is paying for college.

"conspiracy theory your family has heard from state-run media in this country." - this line is beyond the pale, NPR and PBS are arguable state run, and are pushing the lefts conspiracy theories.

one of facts: We believe in them

You have already failed, my young apprentice. Facts are stubborn things do not require your belief. I'll turn it over to Neil Peart:

Can’t get no satisfaction
From the facts?
You better run, homeboy —
A fact’s a fact
From Nome to Rome, boy.

I'm going to give you an incomplete and allow you to work on your treatise. That said, the author's deepest desire is to see people like me dead, or in servitude to the State.

"Allyship" is like a caricature of Catholicism without any hope of eventually being released out of purgatory into heaven.

Amy nails it that family is hard enough to keep together. In the past families were held together by need. They all ran a farm or family business together. The only baby sitting you could get was grandma. They may have hated each other but still stayed together. Easy today to just dump them.

There is good evidence that people's basic political stance is based on their personality which is why a 50-50 split in US politics has persisted for so long. Life events can then alter this: people tend to drift from dem to repub or indep as they age. This basic personality difference influences the filters we apply to incoming info. The basic "fact" of Trump's existence is interpreted with hysteria by the Left (before any crimes, before even being sworn in) but by cautious optimism by the Right. The subject of the recent hearings (the Ukraine phone call) has no "facts" in it only words that can be interpreted in wildly different ways. This insistence on "facts" by the Left reflects their position that no other viewpoints can possibly exist. It is simply a "fact" that all men are sexist upholders of the patriarchy. If "oppressed" trans women claim they are real women, this is "truth" with no possibility of nuance. The possibility that different viewpoints might exist due to values, life experiences, knowledge someone has, poor reasoning ability, etc. simply cannot be accepted by someone with a black-and-white view of the world (you are either with us 100% or you are evil).

And then one must always remember that some people are jerks and if you get in an argument they will argue with you even things they don't believe just to get you upset --these are the real-life trolls. Don't feed the trolls.

Upon further mediation, the only true correct response to someone following this playbook is as follows:

Ok, Zoomer.

For example:

Zoomer: something something global warming disaster
Old Fart: Ok, Zoomer.

It gives you the double satisfaction of agreeing with them while simultaneously insulting them on a visceral, almost Trumpian manner. Most of them will be left sputtering, and trying to insult you back.

Just smile and nod. That will drive them to Maddowian levels of anger.

"Do not let falsehoods lie unchallenged"

If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.

Patrick: ‘Which "facts" are they referring to?’

Maybe, for example, the fact that Russia interfered in the 2016 election, not Ukraine...or some guy in a bathrobe (unless the Russians were wearing bathrobes.)

I think that many — perhaps most? — Trump supporters believe that anything he utters must be true.

Leftists, "liberals", "progressives" ("_" because they aren't any of those things) and Democrats are incapable of living peacefully in free, diverse communities. They're completely intolerant of beliefs and opinions different from their own (the definition of bigotry) They have no qualm about using force and violence by way of the police, guns, courts and jails of the government, or illegal violence anywhere they think they can do so with impunity, to injure or destroy people who disagree with them or don't do what they say. There can't be a peaceful, free society with liberal, leftist Democrats in it. If conservatives don't dominate and oppress them, then they will dominate and oppress conservatives and everyone else. This goes against the principles and morals of conservatives, but leftists won't have it any other way.

Maybe, for example, the fact that Russia interfered in the 2016 election, not Ukraine...or some guy in a bathrobe (unless the Russians were wearing bathrobes.)

I think that many — perhaps most? — Trump supporters believe that anything he utters must be true.

JD at November 29, 2019 11:22 AM

Humm. Getting your *facts* from the mainstream media is always a bad bet.

Most of us Trump voters don’t pay a lot of attention to what he says. We learned long ago not to listen to politicians or reporters.

Maybe when you grow up, you won’t either, Mr “Hillary has this election in the Bag”.

What I care about is. Federalist society judges appointed to the Bench.

Support for the Second Amendment

Border control.

Getting the US out of nonsensical expensive paper agreements with socialist countries who never have had any intention of actually doing whatever they agree to do.

Stop letting China and their interests run amok in Asia ( and America)

I’m getting more of the policies I want from Trump and his administration than any previous American President.

Go ahead, I dare you. Hold your breath til you turn blue, and scream Liar, liar, liar.
That’ll convince us......

"Happy Thanksgiving. As President Barack Obama says: We are the ones we've been waiting for."

This gentleman, if he has any gentleness OR gentility whatsoever, appears to be a gargantuan, mind-blowing bag of ego with that statement. He is undoubtedly the leftist version of a rabid Trump supporter.* His family reunions must be fun, fun, FUN!

*FD: I'm still a Trump supporter for now, but lukewarm, as usual.

This is a west coast culture. Everything is political and everyone must be an activist. 24/7/365. No coexistence. No tolerance. And my sister is one of them. Which is why last year she ended up running down the road trying to force feed her politics and revelations to me while I repeatedly asked to be left alone. And she failed to understand why I then loaded up my family and left. She still doesn't understand what she did that was in any way wrong or offensive.

"they wont change minds, but they will change wills" ~Joe J

It has Joe. I'm no longer comfortable with her raising my kids if some accident should befall me and my wife.

"I'm still a Trump supporter for now, but lukewarm, as usual." ~Mpetrie98

Good Mpetrie. You should always be a lukewarm supporter. Politicians are tools. If they are useful then keep voting for them. If you can get a better deal elsewhere then vote for that guy.

"I think that many — perhaps most? — Trump supporters believe that anything he utters must be true."

Nope. But an appalling number of things his opponents say are breathtaking lies - or what should disqualify the utterer from holding office.

Pelosi is brazen about not reading or listening to anything before signing or commenting on it - and what DO you do with people who have supposedly sworn to uphold the Constitution, then clamor loudly to disregard it?

Do you really expect me to put up with your crap if you insist that the newcomer is the problem - because the people who have held office for over thirty years say so?

Here she is at dinner, surprised at being relegated to the kids' table.

Sorry, wrong pronoun. I think.

“they wont change minds, but they will change wills" ~Joe J

It has Joe. I'm no longer comfortable with her raising my kids if some accident should befall me and my wife.”

The DC area is just as bad. Had some former Army friends visit us in Japan last year.

So brainwashed by the Washington Post they couldn’t even laugh at what I thought was a relatively non political joke about Brexit.

Just kept going on about how terrible Trump was.

I’m politely keeping my mouth shut thinking, Man, the election was two years ago. Get the fuck over it. My second thought was: we will subject ourselves to close proximity to you two crazy people again, the second of Never.

Nice people, in the past. Just bat shit crazy now.

Years ago, my husband and I stopped going to bluegrass festivals when it became just another venue for people to air their progressive political views, in the most aggressively unfriendly manner possible.

If we were living in the south it would be possible to continue that, but here in the Rockies, Bluegrass is Socialist , dope smoking, Telluride trendy.

Isab: “Humm. Getting your *facts* from the mainstream media is always a bad bet.”

I’m sure the U.S. intelligence agencies would be surprised to find out that they are part of the mainstream media.

I’m glad you enjoy your alternative media where you learn things that the mainstream media will never tell you, like Obama being a Muslim who was born in Kenya, Bush & Cheney being behind 9/11, the moon landings being faked, the Holocaust being a hoax and God creating the universe about 6,000 years ago.

It is good you found the mind reading device JD. After all I don't recall Isab taking any of those positions. Or maybe you aren't as informed as you think you are.

Radwaste, I wrote:
"I think that many — perhaps most? — Trump supporters believe that anything he utters must be true."

And, from that, you wildly leap to the conclusion that I don’t think any other politicians lie.

Trump is certainly an egregious liar but far from the only one.

Isab: “Humm. Getting your *facts* from the mainstream media is always a bad bet.”

I’m sure the U.S. intelligence agencies would be surprised to find out that they are part of the mainstream media.”

I think they already know this.....

Apparently JD is the last one to know about the cozy relationship between the various intelligence agencies and their pet media outlets which they leaked to, and then used the resulting planted stories to astroturf their FICA court surveillance requests on Carter Page and others.

Isab: “Had some former Army friends visit us in Japan last year. So brainwashed by the Washington Post...
Just kept going on about how terrible Trump was.
Nice people, in the past. Just bat shit crazy now.”

So Isab has two Army friends who were nice people but now, because they happen to feel Trump is a terrible President — an opinion probably shared by a majority of Americans — they:

1. Have been “brainwashed by the Washington Post.”

2. Are “bat shit crazy”

So, simply because her friends — or former friends — don’t see thing the way she does, it means they are incapable of thinking for themselves and are crazy.

This is EXACTLY the kind of things that extreme lefties feel about people who don’t see things the way they do.

So Isab doesn’t agree with extreme lefties politically but she, mentally and emotionally, a kindred spirit.

Nice try with the false equivalence there JD.

Isab: “Years ago, my husband and I stopped going to bluegrass festivals when it became just another venue for people to air their progressive political views, in the most aggressively unfriendly manner possible.“

I’ve gone to the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass festival — in the city which is your worst progressive nightmare: San Francisco — and politics has hardly ever come up. Given the bombastic and belittling attitude you always display here I suspect what’s really going on is that you try to talk politics with others and are outraged at all the “crazy”, “brainwashed” people who don’t see things the way you do.

I have fond memories of Telluride. A former girlfriend was from the Durango area and we drove down there for Christmas in 2001 to visit her parents and brother. We drove up to Ouray and then decided to continue on to Telluride. Charming town and gorgeous setting. We saw a Colorado singer named Nina Storey perform — at, as I recall, the New Sheridan — and then stayed overnight at the New Sheridan. The hotel had a hot tub on the roof and, while we were in it, my girlfriend wanted to have sex. Being concerned about other people showing up, I was reluctant at first but her sexy entreaties finally got me to cave. Making love with a very sexy woman in a rooftop hot tub, with a light snow falling, the night before Christmas Eve, was a magical moment.

Ben, the equivalence is accurate.

“I’ve gone to the Hardly Strictly Bluegrass festival — in the city which is your worst progressive nightmare: San Francisco — and politics has hardly ever come up. Given the bombastic and belittling attitude you always display here I suspect what’s really going on is that you try to talk politics with others and are outraged at all the “crazy”, “brainwashed” people who don’t see things the way you do.”

I doubt you have ever gone to an outdoor festival with a Wyoming license plate on your vehicle, in the middle of the left’s demonization of Dick Cheney.

I don’t start conversations about politics. But I do find it offensive, when musicians make political comments and jokes on stage and more than one audience member was walking around sporting a “Fuck Bush” T shirt. (Rocky Grass 2006).

You don’t see that shit at festivals in Tennessee. People there have some manners.

Im sure you are perfectly comfortable in San Fran and Telluride. Most of the audience are fellow travelers of yours.

Ill educated, Ill mannered, and absolutely certain of their social and moral superiority.

You can’t be a hectoring kindergarten teacher about politics and climate change and other progressive pet causes and be friends with anyone else but your fellow true believers. There just isn’t any room for dissent with you people.

You all want to bring the power of government to your side of the fight to stamp out any dissent from your world view.

It puzzles me why you bother to post here on a libertarian leaning site. Amy allows a lot of dissent. One of her most appealing features.

“It puzzles me why you bother to post here on a libertarian leaning site.”

I’m not surprised at all that it puzzles you. To me, it helps illustrate how narrow-minded you are.

“Ill educated, Ill mannered, and absolutely certain of their social and moral superiority.”

Thanks for helping support the point I previously made, about you being the same as many lefties. People who disagree with you can’t simply have different opinions. No, they must be “ill-educated” (or, as in the case of your former military friends, “bat shit crazy.”

In your egocentric view, if everyone was sufficiently educated, they’d see things just as you see them.

No JD the they are not equivalent. But I'm not surprised you don't understand that.

"And, from that, you wildly leap to the conclusion that I don’t think any other politicians lie."

Not shown. You made that up, and I don't just address the commenter when I comment here.

But be sure: you made that up. I said no such thing - but this is not surprising, as you make other statements without proper support.

You should look to that.