Almost no one will look past this to realize that the goal of such people is to deconstruct America, NOT "right" supposed wrongs. That some actions are occasionally tangent to the personal interests of some Americans is only coincidence.

The average citizen may have only learned from popular media that "Lincoln = best President ever!". That the same media has created other pedestals for other Presidents is not a concern.

Lincoln indeed held and expressed many opinions which would lead to his assassination, not just impeachment, if they were expressed today. It's just so important to race grifters that he remain the Moses of America that these are not widely known.

This notion that we demand moral purity in everyone from the past or toss them on the ash pile, well, it reveals an understanding and acceptance of the reality of human nature that was apparently frozen at age 6.

That's the thing. We have adults today whose understanding of the world around them is no more sophisticated than a six-year-old's. Being a grown-up means dealing with people, warts and all.

Lincoln was a white dude in the 1800s, of course he was racist. He still freed the slaves.

I swear people seem incapable of baby steps. You don't go from medieval feudalism to egalitarian utopia in one fell swoop.

A religious person might remember "for all have fallen short of the glory of God" (sorry if I mangled the quote) and the story of adam and eve etc. That is, we are all imperfect sinners. Moreover, most of us are witless crowd-followers and human history is one big horror show. That we have made any progress is a miracle that should be celebrated. Thomas Sowell points out that civilization is a fragile thing, easy to destroy. Civilizations have fallen many times in the past. Sounds harmless, "fallen" but it usually meant the population fell by half or more.
I personally cannot listen to music by some artists because they are just too weird, but it is in the nature of great artists to be weird. Picasso was a jerk. Van Gogh was crazy. Many great poets killed themselves. The work they did is still great. If we examine everyone's life and thoughts too closely then there is no great art or science left. For example, every human prior to last year was racist, homophobic, etc. so toss them all I guess.
But as has been noted, the purpose of demoting Lincoln is not truth but the bringing down of western civilization. Lincoln is one of the heroes of our civ so he must go. They want to tear down every statue including those of Jesus and Mary and saints at churches. They have defaced Joan of Arc in New Orleans and even an Elk for God's sake. Defaced statues of abolitionists, black union soldiers, and 9/11 responders. Let's not pretend that this destruction is principled or has a goal except total defacement of our way of life and thought and belief.

I imagine it won’t be too long before the wokies start agitating for a John Wilkes Booth memorial on The Mall.

> a John Wilkes Booth

Noted… You might be right.

Joan of Arc?! What'd she do wrong?!!!!

Conan Says:

"That's the thing. We have adults today whose understanding of the world around them is no more sophisticated than a six-year-old's. Being a grown-up means dealing with people, warts and all."

I think this largely misses the point of what it means to be an adult.

Children have very limited control over their social environments. They are compelled to interact with people who if given the choice they would have nothing at all to do with.

Adults by contrast are free to set boundaries in a way no child really can. Adults can choose what "warts" they are willing to put up with and what "warts" cross some line they have defined.

Exactly what six-year-old has this kind of control over their social environment? Social interactions are largely mediated and controlled by adults. They have to deal with people the adults around them tell them they have to deal with.

The wonderful thing about being an adult is that you can essentially tell someone to fuck off if you are so inclined... and in a large fraction of scenarios you don't need to consult anyone to make such a decision.

Of course one has to deal with unsavory personalities at work from time to time... but one often has a great deal of control over who they collaborate with, or one can try and change job roles or companies... these are the kinds of decisions children cannot possibly make on their own.

In purely social situations adults can unilaterally cut someone off from future interaction if they find someone else unpleasant.

I'm not sure why you would feel that adults are constantly compelled to interact with others and that children are free to do as they please.

As far as I am concerned you've gotten the entire thing backwards.

You are so woke, Orion! We should have known after the airliner thing that you were going to fall hard for whatever the next silly intellectual trend would be!

It's a tragically wasted opportunity for you… As far as I am concerned.

Conan Says: ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 1:57 AM

Oh goodie. Artie's back.

Adults can choose what "warts" they are willing to put up with and what "warts" cross some line they have defined. ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 1:57 AM

To a certain extent, they can, only if they are willing to accept that human beings have warts. If they expect their ideal of perfection from others, they're going to be sorely disappointed; and isolated.

Learning to put up with others' warts is part of becoming an adult.

By the way, Artie, the "warts and all" comment comes from Oliver Cromwell. When he was to be painted as Lord Protector, he told his portrait painter, "Use all your skill to paint my picture truly like me and not flatter me at all, but ... remark all these ruffness, pimples, warts, and everything as you see me." It was his way of distancing himself from the royal practice of having blemishes painted out of portraits.

George HW Bush would later misquote and misattribute it on the campaign trail, "As Abraham Lincoln said, 'Here I stand, warts and all.'" Despite mangling the quote, his meaning was understood, "no one is perfect; accept me for who I am, do not reject me for who I am not."

Social interactions are largely mediated and controlled by adults. They have to deal with people the adults around them tell them they have to deal with. ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 1:57 AM

Children do have some agency, Artie. They, too, can choose those with whom they socialize at school and on the playground.

Likewise adults do not always have full agency in their surroundings and circumstances.

I'm not sure why you would feel that adults are constantly compelled to interact with others and that children are free to do as they please. ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 1:57 AM

Yes, that's exactly what I said.

Artie, as an adult (you'll get there one day), you are going to work with and interact with people whose beliefs and behaviors do not align with your ideals - neighbors, coworkers, merchants, etc.

You may choose not to socialize with them, but you're going to interact with them in some way. You will have little choice in the matter, due to circumstances or expedience.

You can choose to get along with them, "warts and all," or you can choose hostility and aloofness.

As far as I am concerned you've gotten the entire thing backwards. ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 1:57 AM

If you say so, I must have. After all, your opinions are formed entirely using facts and logic - so you repeatedly tell us.

And you've "won dozens of industrial awards and been awarded patents."

What's more, "everyone [you] work with and have ever worked with have [sic] always praised [your] communication skills both verbal and written." Everyone. Always.

So, if you say so, I must have it backwards.

Tou nanoc.

Conan Says:

"To a certain extent, they can, only if they are willing to accept that human beings have warts. If they expect their ideal of perfection from others, they're going to be sorely disappointed; and isolated."

It is up to each individual to determine what they are willing to deal with.

What you consider to be a wart for example someone else might consider to be a beautiful feature.

I'm just a live and let live kind of a person.

Some folks love to be social butterflies jumping from flower to flower without spending too much time at each one... others like having a few very deep and meaningful relationships with a small cluster of close people.

Few people if any select to completely socially isolate themselves in search of some kind of idealized perfect person to associate with.

That you would talk about the potential existence of such folks as if they were at all common or worthy of serious discussion in this context is silly.

I'm discussing the population at large and you are hypothesizing about very unique people who if they exist at all are not in significant numbers to justify an entire argument regarding how very concerned you are for their isolation.

"Children do have some agency, Artie. They, too, can choose those with whom they socialize at school and on the playground."

Once again you have great difficulty with frequency modifiers.

I said the following "Social interactions are largely mediated and controlled by adults."

The word "largely" here doesn't mean "completely". Hence your assertion that children do have *some* agency is already baked into my statement.

Everything you read is somehow converted into a black and white statement.

Read what is written and respond to that if you choose to respond at all. Making up strawmen to "correct" just makes you seem foolish.

To summarize my argument I will make this so simple even you may understand.

Adults have *more* agency than children when it comes to controlling their social interactions... therefore it does not make much sense when you said the following:

"We have adults today whose understanding of the world around them is no more sophisticated than a six-year-old's. Being a grown-up means dealing with people, warts and all."

The reality is that children by necessity deal with people "warts and all" precisely because they have *less* agency to do otherwise than adults do.

Amy was talking about black and white thinking of children as compared to adults, which is a valid argument.

You then took it and ran with it in a way that was completely irrational.

Children frequently have to deal with people they don't want to deal with because they have no choice... maybe if you had kids of your own you'd understand this, but childhood is too remote from your current experience to recall I suppose.

"You don't go from medieval feudalism to egalitarian utopia in one fell swoop."

You could if the country were run by egalitarian Communist multi-gendered progressives and the citizenry were completely disarmed.

Amy was talking about black and white thinking of children as compared to adults, which is a valid argument.

You then took it and ran with it in a way that was completely irrational

~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 9:56 AM

You really don't read for comprehension, do you.

In my original statement, I was not talking about social butterflies and differing personalities here, Artie. Nor was I talking about children and agency.

When I said "We have adults today whose understanding of the world around them is no more sophisticated than a six-year-old's," it jibed with what Amy originally posted, "it reveals an understanding and acceptance of the reality of human nature that was apparently frozen at age 6.".

I was saying that we have too many adults who see the world in a purely reactionary way, who do not have the ability to comprehend nuance and shades of gray - i.e., adults like you, Artie.

...maybe if you had kids of your own you'd understand this, but childhood is too remote from your current experience to recall I suppose. ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 9:56 AM

Artie, my not having children has nothing to do with the accuracy of my contention that the world is full of adult-aged people with a naive and unsophisticated understanding of the world around them.

If you take exception to my characterizing them as "six-year-olds," that's fine. But six-year-olds are not generally credited with having a sophisticated understanding of the world around them, so I stand by my analogy.

As for Amy's contention that wokeness is driven by immaturity and an inability to see the world as anything but black and white, I'm in full agreement with her, both now and in my original statement.

Children frequently have to deal with people they don't want to deal with because they have no choice.... ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 9:56 AM

So do adults, Artie, so do adults. Learning to do so is actually part of becoming an adult.

> I'm just a live and let
> live kind of a person.

We need to know that! But…

> Children frequently have to deal
> with people they don't want to
> deal with because they have no
> choice....

…So do airline passengers.

Conan Says:

"So do adults, Artie, so do adults. Learning to do so is actually part of becoming an adult."

Dear lord are you dense.

You still can't manage to comprehend the simple realities of scope or degree.

Of course adults will on occasion need to deal with individuals they would rather not deal with.

However... and here is the important part... children have markedly *less* control over their social situations than adults do, which comes into direct conflict with your earlier assertion that:

"We have adults today whose understanding of the world around them is no more sophisticated than a six-year-old's. Being a grown-up means dealing with people, warts and all."

Children have to deal with people "warts and all" to a larger extent than adults do.

As a parent this is something I need to be keenly aware of because when I set up social interactions my children are often along for the ride whether they like it or not.

That you keep harping over how difficult you have it as an adult... and contrast that with children as if they don't have to deal with people "warts and all" is indicative of just how little you actually understand the dynamics at play for kids.

That you cannot seem to acknowledge that adults have more freedom and control than children in this regard is astonishing.

Conan Says:

"Artie, my not having children has nothing to do with the accuracy of my contention that the world is full of adult-aged people with a naive and unsophisticated understanding of the world around them."

It is a trite and meaningless assertion to simply state that the world is full of naive and unsophisticated individuals.

This is trivially true.

What matters is the context of that lack of sophistication.

When you say this for example:

"Being a grown-up means dealing with people, warts and all."

That isn't at all the case because it isn't actually a distinction from children as I have explained.

Children have *less* agency when it comes to dealing with people "warts and all" than adults do.

If you believe a six-year-old child is better able to avoid dealing with people they would rather not deal with than you are I feel extremely sorry for you.

As an adult I have far more freedom and control over my social environment than I ever had as a small child.

This is the case for most people, that it apparently isn't true for you is unfortunate.

Orion, as long as you're pursuing this "woke" style of reasoning, I don't see how you can expect anyone to be persuaded.

However... and here is the important part... children have markedly *less* control over their social situations than adults do, which comes into direct conflict with your earlier assertion.... ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 12:42 PM

Dear Lord, the stupid is strong with this one.

There is no conflict in the fact that children have less control over their social situations than adults do and my contention that we have too many adults in our society today who have the outlook and maturity of six-year-olds. No conflict whatsoever.

In fact, I'm not arguing that children don't have as much agency as do adults. They don't have none, as you alleged. They certainly have less than adults do. That's by design. They're children. /sarcasm

Artie, that children have less control over their social situations than adults do has nothing to do with the topic here.

The argument being made here is that way too many "woke" people have the mentality, maturity, and worldview of children. That children come by that mentality, maturity, and worldview naturally is not germane to the topic.

And yes, Artie, adults do have to deal with people they don't like - bosses, clients, coworkers, neighbors, condo board presidents, etc. Adults deal with them, "warts and all."

Just like adults deal with the fact that historical figures, like Abraham Lincoln, rarely measure up to modern moral standards. An adult accepts that times were different and weighs that fact against the good that said historical figure did. Some historical figures are still found wanting, but others are honored.

Now, Artie, try to imagine if those same six-year-olds who had no control over their social situations and whose outlooks were entirely reactionary, were now put in charge of society. That's the contention put forth in this thread - that if six-year-olds were in charge, what we'd get is very much like what we're getting from the "woke," an unsophisticated, absolutist view of the world and the history thereof.

Do try to keep up.

As an adult I have far more freedom and control over my social environment than I ever had as a small child. ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 1:10 PM

I would certainly hope so.

Yet, even as an adult - a situation that, in your case, has yet to be confirmed - you have to deal with people who exercise a measure of control over your situation - bosses, clients, coworkers, condo board presidents, etc. You may not socialize with them, but you do have to deal with them at some point.

Please note, Artie, that in my comments, I never limited the interaction with those folks to social situations as you have. That, in fact, was my later point, not that you are forced against your will to socialize with people you don't like, but that, as an adult, you do have to deal, in some capacity, with people you may not like. You cannot simply put your fingers in your ears and hum them away.

Conan,

I'm not all that interested in entertaining your evasive nonsense at the moment so I'll just cut to the chase. When you say the following:

"Artie, that children have less control over their social situations than adults do has nothing to do with the topic here."

It avoids the very real logical implication of what you said below:

"That's the thing. We have adults today whose understanding of the world around them is no more sophisticated than a six-year-old's. Being a grown-up means dealing with people, warts and all."

In particular, by drawing a contrast between six-year-olds and grown-ups on the basis of "dealing with people, warts and all"... the only logical conclusion is that the second group does "deal with people, warts and all", and the first group does not.

My only point this entire time is that this contrast is demonstrably false.

Both children AND adults "deal with people, warts and all"... the only distinction is that children have *less* of an ability to avoid those interactions than adults do.

That you are incapable of following that thread of logic is something I cannot help you with because it is obviously beyond you.

Conan— The logical implications are VERY real! Orion's a live-&-let-live kind of guy! It's not his fault, Conan, if you can't track, on an intellectual level, the woke magnitude of his logical conclusions re: the second group! He comprehends the simple realities! Having freedom and control means being trite and meaningless.

Go get 'em, O-boy! You have to deal with unsavory personalities, if you are so inclined.

Conan,

On to a more substantive portion of the discussion. Lets look at this portion of what you have to say:

"Just like adults deal with the fact that historical figures, like Abraham Lincoln, rarely measure up to modern moral standards. An adult accepts that times were different and weighs that fact against the good that said historical figure did. Some historical figures are still found wanting, but others are honored."

I agree with you that historical figures rarely measure up to moral standards... often times contemporary as well as modern. I still recall how disappointed I was when I learned that Albert Einstein basically abandoned his son from his first wife.

He was still an amazingly brilliant scientist and revolutionized 20th century physics... but he still did something that implies a serious moral failing.

People are messy, often times very gray mixtures of light and dark impulses and behaviors.

Now here is the crux of things... when you define the word "adult" I think what you are really doing is assigning your own value judgments.

What exactly makes a historical figure worthy of veneration?... isn't that up to each individual to decide?

Why exactly if someone happens to come to a slightly different conclusion than you on a particular person would that cause you to call into question their qualifications to make their own value judgments?

There is room for people to disagree on who should be venerated and to what degree they ought to be venerated, correct?

Or are you arguing that there is some objective standard for veneration of historical figures and that you have particular insight into what that standard should be?

That would be quite arrogant would it not?

At the end of the day the world does not belong to us... not to you... not to me... not to anyone living. We are merely renting and the owners are always living in the future.

Countless historical figures who were once thought worthy of eternal veneration have been all but forgotten to the ash heap of history.

If you want to make your case for why someone shouldn't be discarded you ought to try convincing future generations why they are worthy of eternal veneration despite their messy nature as opposed to simply dismissing anyone who disagrees with you as being akin to a small child.

When exactly has such an argument ever really worked anyway?

For what it is worth I greatly admire what Abraham Lincoln managed to accomplish in his time... but I am also not under any delusion that in grand scheme of things he is somehow going to defy the odds and be remembered for all time.

There was someone who first domesticated a dog Conan... someone who first invented that flint and iron made a spark to light a fire... none of us will ever have the slightest clue who these amazingly imperfect people were.

O'ster: Ever see a naked boobie?

Moms & aunts don't count.

Countless historical figures who were once thought worthy of eternal veneration have been all but forgotten to the ash heap of history. ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 3:12 PM

Really? Well, thank God we have you to impart that kind of perspective to us. What would we ever do without you? /sarcasm

Exactly what part of, "Some historical figures are still found wanting, but others are honored" did you not understand?

Read for comprehension, Artie, for comprehension.

Artie, arguing with you is like arguing with a six-year-old, always quibbling over exact wording. "But you said I could have a cookie later. It's later now."

I've said it twice already and it apparently can't be said enough:

Artie, you are a complete and utter fucking moron!

Conan,

You cannot even manage to keep your composure on an internet blog talking to a stranger and yet here you are talking about differences in child and adult behavior.

You are out of sorts and need to get a hold of yourself emotionally.

This is going to be a fun week for you I am sure.

This is going to be a fun week for you I am sure. ~ Artemis at November 2, 2020 5:38 PM

It will be. I enjoy watching Americans exercise their right to vote. It's one of our most important rights, a foundational one, in fact.

As for my composure, no Artie, I haven't "lost it." That was a carefully crafted outburst, as it was the last two times I posted it. You'll notice I don't swear that often on this forum. So when I do, it's for emphasis. I'll probably post it again a few times. It bears repeating.

Orion, no one takes you more seriously than Conan. It's highly probable that your encounter with him here is the most serious and thoughtful consideration that your ideas will receive in November, and perhaps the whole of the rest of 2020. Luxuriate. Be grateful.

Conan Says:

"That was a carefully crafted outburst, as it was the last two times I posted it."

Sure Conan... every time you are frothing at the mouth it is on purpose!!!

It isn't difficult to maintain composure on the internet.

I am quite often exasperated by your lack of reason... and yet somehow I manage not to have "outbursts".

Crid,

You live in a strange reality where you've become convinced that this blog is in any way shape or form indicative of larger reality.

This place has largely become an insular echo chamber that cannot handle facts or information that doesn't conform to a particular ideological framework.

I just come here to share information... take it seriously or ignore it entirely... the facts will remain regardless.

...every time you are frothing at the mouth it is on purpose!!! ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 8:52 AM

Frothing? Calling you a complete and utter fucking moron would hardly qualify as frothing. A burst of insight, perhaps, but not frothing.

...and yet somehow I manage not to have "outbursts". ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 8:52 AM

You know nothing of rhetoric.

I just come here.... ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 9:00 AM

Yes you do, and often. And you spend a lot of that time stalking me. I'm starting to think you may have a crush on me.

Conan,

Frothing is a lovely adjective to describe when someone has lost composure.

You have already admitting to having an outburst... describing it as frothing is perfectly reasonable.

Since you insist you are a master of the English language though I really must question your choices when you wish to "emphasize" someone else lack of intelligence.

The word moron for example is not really a great choice if one is going for emphasis. The reason for this is that it is one classification above imbecile and two classifications above idiot on the Binet scale.

So instead of using the more potent vocabulary choice of "idiot" you instead choose to emphasize your "burst of insight" with bold font and expletives.

If your outburst was truly as "carefully crafted" as you insist and you really wanted to include bold font and expletives you would have still been better off saying the following:

"you are a complete and utter fucking idiot!"

That statement would have decidedly *more* emphasis and furthermore demonstrate your masterful understanding of how the words moron, imbecile, and idiot relate to one another.

No matter how you slice it, your "carefully crafted" outburst falls flat for lack of understanding.

Furthermore, that kind of rhetoric might impress someone like Crid... but no one of quality is going to find it the least bit compelling.

You would have demonstrated better character had you simply chosen to ignore me.

However that isn't how you operate because you are constitutionally incapable of dealing with criticism of any form without throwing a tantrum.

"You know nothing of rhetoric."

So now "outbursts" are a critically important part of rhetoric?

Now you sound remarkably stupid and ignorant when you insist that the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing involves outbursts that suggest you have lost your composure.

Emotional outbursts are not the least bit effective at persuading adults of anything Conan... however they can be effective with children on the school yard.

I believe I've managed to prove my case that you are not particularly well qualified to criticize anyone for child-like behavior.

You clearly haven't advanced beyond the rhetoric of the sand box.

The next few years are going to be rough for you as you as I suspect you are going to find yourself ranting and raving about losing a culture war that you haven't the foggiest idea how to properly contextualize or understand.

So now "outbursts" are a critically important part of rhetoric? ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 11:58 AM

Critically? I never used the word "critical," Artie. You are prone to exaggerations and deliberate misinterpretations like that. And here I thought you only dealt in "facts" and "truth." Another lie.

Yes, Artie, a deliberately-placed or well-timed expletive or outburst can be an effective rhetorical tool. As I said, you know nothing of rhetoric.

Screenwriter, Paolo Braga, put it this way, "Invectives pivot on a specific beat: the diminishing twist. The cornerstone of the speech is the passage where the speaker makes his audience see themselves with different eyes, forcing them to stop deceiving themselves...."

I believe I've managed to prove my case that you are not particularly well qualified to criticize anyone for child-like behavior. ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 11:58 AM

Believe whatever you want. You've only proven your own ignorance and naiveté.

The next few years are going to be rough for you as you as I suspect you are going to find yourself ranting and raving about losing a culture war that you haven't the foggiest idea how to properly contextualize or understand. ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 11:58 AM

The next few years are going to be just fine for me, Artie.

You're making assumptions about me based on stereotypes derived from your own narrow and cloistered worldview.

People seldom conform to stereotypes, Artie. Even you have to have some substance, Artie. You can't be all creamy filling, there's gotta be a Twinkie in you somewhere.

Wheelchair?

Conan Says:

"Yes, Artie, a deliberately-placed or well-timed expletive or outburst can be an effective rhetorical tool. As I said, you know nothing of rhetoric."

Unfortunately your expletives are neither "well-timed" or "effective".

Look... if you want to insist that your version of rhetoric includes expletive ridden insults written in bold font with exclamation points then I have drawn an accurate conclusion that you've never actually grown up.

I'm fine with a curse word or a clever insult here or there... but your statement was devoid of wit and had no punch to it. It served no persuasive purpose at all.

As I have been trying to teach you for many years now... you are all pathos and no logos.

I keep pointing out to you that your statements lack rational grounding, they fail to be evidence based, they show no logical thread that ties your points together into a cohesive and convincing argument.

Who exactly are you trying to persuade by having an emotional outburst indicating that I am a "fucking moron"?

It certainly isn't going to be persuasive to me... it isn't going to be persuasive to Crid either who loves to rant and rave about people with disabilities.

Do you perhaps think such statements are persuasive to random people who happen upon this blog?

You are just growling at a computer screen like a rabid dog and you end up looking foolish.

"The next few years are going to be just fine for me, Artie.

You're making assumptions about me based on stereotypes derived from your own narrow and cloistered worldview."

Not really... I happen to be aware that you had a rough time in your career as of recently.

That isn't an assumption unless you were lying.

Maybe things have improved for you, maybe they haven't... but the future is unlikely to be kind to someone who cannot manage to keep a cool head on an internet blog where the stress level is essentially non-existent.

Unfortunately your expletives are neither "well-timed" or [sic] "effective". ... It served no persuasive purpose at all. ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 10:36 PM

The fact that you've expended so much time and effort to argue with it tells me that it was effective; that it served its purpose well.

The urgency and frequency of your arguments also tell me that you're secretly worried that you might actually be a complete and utter fucking moron.

I happen to be aware that you had a rough time in your career as of recently. ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 10:36 PM

I happen to have mentioned on this blog that I got laid off from a contractor gig at an aerospace company when COVID hit the airline industry hard.

I've got savings, an education, and solid experience in finance and data analysis. I'm fluent in several BI tools that are in widespread use right now and I'm learning some of the newer ones. As the economy picks up, so should my prospects. My wife works, so we have a decent income right now.

Things have been better, but next-few-years-gonna-be-really-rough, they are not.

Orion, no one takes you more seriously than Conan. ~ Crid at November 3, 2020 7:09 AM

Crid may be right. I may be taking you far too seriously, Artie. I'm certainly expending way too much effort in debating you. Maybe there is no Twinkie in there after all.

Unfortunately your expletives are neither "well-timed" or [sic] "effective". ... It served no persuasive purpose at all. ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 10:36 PM

The fact that you've expended so much time and effort to argue with it tells me that it was effective; that it served its purpose well.

The urgency and frequency of your arguments also tell me that you're secretly worried that you might actually be a complete and utter fucking moron.

I happen to be aware that you had a rough time in your career as of recently. ~ Artemis at November 3, 2020 10:36 PM

I happen to have mentioned on this blog that I got laid off from a contractor gig at an aerospace company when COVID hit the airline industry hard.

I've got savings, an education, and solid experience in finance and data analysis. I'm fluent in several BI tools that are in widespread use right now and I'm learning some of the newer ones. As the economy picks up, so should my prospects. My wife works, so we have a decent income right now.

Things have been better, but next-few-years-gonna-be-really-rough, they are not.

Orion, no one takes you more seriously than Conan. ~ Crid at November 3, 2020 7:09 AM

Crid may be right. I may be taking you far too seriously, Artie. I'm certainly expending way too much effort in debating you. Maybe there is no Twinkie in there after all.

Conan Says:

"The fact that you've expended so much time and effort to argue with it tells me that it was effective; that it served its purpose well."

I don't know if you noticed Conan... but you and I are both here.

So your ultimate plan was to get me to spend more time with you?

I don't really think you fathom how very stupid you sound.

First you had an emotional outburst as a "carefully calculated" rhetorical device... then when I pointed out that this is nonsensical because rhetoric is about persuading someone to take on your perspective and it makes absolutely no sense to try and convince me of anything by resorting to emotional outbursts... now it was all part of your plan to get me to talk to you.

As I have told you many times before... logic is not your strong suit.

"Things have been better, but next-few-years-gonna-be-really-rough, they are not."

Right... so what was with all this chatter about me assuming that things might be rough for you in the coming years with the ongoing societal shifts?

It appears to me that I had a reasonable factual basis for my claim.

For what it is worth I hope you land on your feet... but I don't imagine for one second if our situations were reversed you would offer me the same consideration.

...but I don't imagine for one second if our situations were reversed you would offer me the same consideration. ~ Artemis at November 4, 2020 7:48 AM

Again, you're assuming things; that I couldn't possibly be magnanimous.

Even in the middle of a bitter feud with Patrick (one which we've moved past now), I extended condolences on a loss he suffered. Why would you assume that I would not do the same for you?

I don't wish ill on you, Artie. I wish enlightenment and wisdom.

Conan Says:

"Again, you're assuming things; that I couldn't possibly be magnanimous."

I'm not assuming anything Conan. My statement is based entirely upon your historic behavior.

Even in this very thread you claim that you "carefully craft" emotional outbursts for purposes that are neither constructive nor rational.

If I wished I could identify numerous occasions where you have been anything but "magnanimous"... if that is who you think you are it isn't in evidence based on anything you have done here.

We are not talking about one offs either Conan, this has been your persistent behavior for years.

I mean, just look at this quote Conan:

"The fact that you've expended so much time and effort to argue with it tells me that it was effective; that it served its purpose well.

The urgency and frequency of your arguments also tell me that you're secretly worried that you might actually be a complete and utter fucking moron."

What about any of this exudes one shred of decency or generosity?

You act like a bitter person seeking to take out your personal frustrations on faceless people on the internet. That doesn't make you special or unique... it doesn't make you wise or enlightened... it just makes you an insecure and angry little man.

As I have told you countless times before... stick to attacking arguments and avoid attacking people... focus on facts and evidence to support your claims. Honestly point out where others have made logical errors or where they have presented facts that are incomplete or incorrect.

That behavior is in the enlightenment tradition. That is the behavior of someone who is wise.

You've unfortunately been on some other path for a long time now.

Artie, you're a frustrating little gnat. If you want kindness and generosity, be worthy of it.

You called me a racist and a neo-Nazi sympathizer; posting cherry-picked portions of quotes in a malicious effort to back up your slimy accusations. You persisted in the accusations even after I posted the full quotes, highlighting the parts you intentionally left out. There is no way I'm feeling any kindness or generosity toward you.

Calling you a "complete and utter fucking moron" was tame compared to the condign imprecations you should have received from me.

You're a liar and a child. You sit in your little sandbox, casually hurling vicious accusations at people; and then castigate them for not being nice to you. Artie, you've earned the hostility you've gotten from me. And from others.

Conan Says:

"Artie, you're a frustrating little gnat. If you want kindness and generosity, be worthy of it."

lol... how very "magnanomous" of you.

Again, I wasn't "assuming" anything, you aren't a kind of generous individual and as far as I've observed you never have been.

As far as I can tell in order to be "worthy" of your kindness and generosity one needs to constantly fluff your insecure ego.

I'm not going to do that... if you are mistaken I will point it out.

You don't do well with criticism of any form.

So much for "enlightenment" and "wisdom".

"You called me a racist and a neo-Nazi sympathizer; posting cherry-picked portions of quotes in a malicious effort to back up your slimy accusations. You persisted in the accusations even after I posted the full quotes, highlighting the parts you intentionally left out. There is no way I'm feeling any kindness or generosity toward you."

Conan... you were never kind of generous toward me.

Long before I came to those conclusions about you based on your behavior you were busy accusing me of creating sock puppet accounts to randomly create fictitious support within our disagreements.

I've told you several times already your accusations were false and yet you held to them anyway.

That isn't "kind" of "generous".

You love to pretend like you are some enlightened and aggrieved party in our discourse, but reality tells a different story. This is you from 2015:

"Arty's a tar baby. He'll suck you into a long exchange in which he really really needs to get the last word (in his case, the last 3,500 words).

Only his comments are galling, so you really really want to respond to them." - Conan the Grammarian at March 3, 2015 12:09 PM

That was in a thread I wasn't even in.

You are just an angry and insecure child Conan who really wants to believe that in some sense I've harmed you so you have justification to lash out.

You aren't a decent person in this scenario... you're the asshole.

You are welcome to be an asshole of course. No skin off my nose.

Just stop pretending you are some cultured and enlightened person seeking to be kind and generous to others in conversations here.

Reality doesn't favor your version of events.

You pitch fits... have outbursts... you lie... and then you make up stories as it suits your purpose... and after all is said and done you claim it is all just "rhetoric".

It is high time you grew up and actually committed yourself to the ideals you claim to hold.

Conan,

Just to highlight how very irrational you sound... let's put the following 2 quotes side by side:

"I don't wish ill on you, Artie. I wish enlightenment and wisdom."

and

"Artie, you've earned the hostility you've gotten from me."

Please save your nonsense for someone who isn't capable of noticing that these two statements are incompatible.

You constantly see yourself as a perpetual victim to justify your poor behavior.

You aren't a victim Conan... and as an adult you should be able to control yourself emotionally.

It's more about figuring out why you're so goofy. I'm pretty sure you're an Asian immigrant or a person with an institutional history. I doubt you've ever driven a car or dated a woman. Or a man. Anyway, it's always a pleasure when you stop by and spread your voodoo on the floor.

Crid,

I hate to break it to you... but you appear to be pretty darn goofy to me.

The different between you and I is that I recognize that this country is a heterogeneous agglomeration of people with various perspectives... even perspectives I find unsavory.

When you identify people who understand the world in a way that doesn't fit your personal model you conclude that there is something "wrong" or "off" about them.

This is your own failing and not something I have ever been the least bit concerned about.

Orion finds some "perspectives" to be "unsavory" in this "heterogeneous agglomeration."

Crid,

How did you know I thought of you as an "unsavory heterogeneous agglomeration"?

I think you are finally starting to understand.