I read something about the kids the other day and I don't think it went far enough. Looking at a lot of the young people these days they grew up in one of two environments.

The first group had almost nothing so they are bound to be at least as well off and likely to get more.

The second group is where as kids everyone was equal...everyone got an award...everyone got pretty much the best. Parents just provided all the goodies. Now the government/society is looked at like the parents...everyone should be provided with pretty much the best of everything...that is just how it should work.

Something with UBI

The problem is there is not that much wealth to be spent. The government does not have some Scrooge McDuck money pile some where.

The problem is there is not that much wealth to be spent. The government does not have some Scrooge McDuck money pile some where. ~ The Former Banker at July 12, 2021 10:47 PM

Socialists do not understand how to create wealth. They understand only too well how to redistribute extant wealth. To Margaret Thatcher's point, one day that wealth runs out.

Venezuela is a perfect example of this. Hugo Chavez funneled billions of dollars of oil revenue into social programs, depriving the country's nationalized oil industry of capital it needed to exploit the potential of the Orinoco Belt and to reinvest in a capital-intensive industry. As a result, Venezuela's oil production has steadily declined and the country is an economic basket case, this despite sitting on one of the world's largest proven oil reserves and one of the largest potential oil reserves.

Venezuela simply ran out of other people's money.

There's a reason why the Cubans are protesting in the streets of Havana. And, folks, it ain't because of COVID.

One reason I think people are liking socialism more is that there is a strong desire for security/stability people have. Capitalism is churning all the time. Companies come and go. It is rare that you can get a job and keep it for life. In Europe, we see more advanced implementation of "freeze things the way they are" with it almost impossible to fire anyone in France for example. This short-term "fix" leads to the unwillingness of business to hire and grow because they will be stuck with the new hires if the economy sours. The unemployment rate in Europe thus stays at about 10%.

People also have an aversion to "unfairness" and get jealous of the rich. But the opportunity to get rich is what drives people to start a business that ends up hiring tens of thousands and pays billions in taxes.

We also see distorted ideas of wealth. Minorities often think all white people are rich but in fact numerically there are more poor whites than blacks (lower as a % of course). In many cases the people in the suburbs can afford their lifestyle because husband and wife both work, whereas single mothers cannot do this.

What is truly scary is how much in love progressives are with communist dictatorships. There is wide praise for the chinese gov, in spite of the 30 million who died under mao and the repression that still goes on. Social media are now routinely censoring criticism of the CCP, as if a government was a racial group. Where is the support for the people of Hong Kong or Cuba among the Left? The NYT called the cuba protests "antigovernment" protests and were not very sympathetic.

I don't know just how many First World nations in Europe are run by social democrats (as OPPOSED to socialists), but just how often do people in THOSE nations demand more capitalism instead?

(For starters, a lot of Northern Europeans seem pretty happy with their systems.)

I don't know just how many First World nations in Europe are run by social democrats (as OPPOSED to socialists), but just how often do people in THOSE nations demand more capitalism instead? ~ Lenona at July 13, 2021 7:49 AM

They've already got more capitalism than the US does. Why would they march in the streets and demand less?

"The myth of Nordic socialism is partially created by a confusion between socialism, meaning government exerting control or ownership of businesses, and the welfare state in the form of government-provided social safety net programs. However, the left’s embrace of socialism is not merely a case of redefining a word. Simply look at the long-running affinity of leftists with socialist dictators in Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela for proof many on the left long for real socialism."

These Nordic countries that lefties love to use as examples of "democratic socialism" have

• no minimum wage laws
• complete school choice
• high levels of private ownership of the means of production
• strong government protection of property rights
• low levels of occupational licensing
• no secondary mortgage markets
• a mostly-deregulated product market
• low corporate income taxes
• defined contribution retirement along with private accounts

That doesn't sound very much like the Democrats' plan for America, does it? In fact, it sounds very much like robust capitalism.

"...it is worth noting that the Nordic counties were economic successes before they built their welfare states. Those productive economies, generating good incomes for their workers, allowed the governments to raise the tax revenue needed to pay for the social benefits. It was not the government benefits that created wealth, but wealth that allowed the luxury of such generous government programs."

The article cited is more than three years old, so let's look at a more recent opinion - from the Wall Street Journal:

"'All of their models that they could point to, given a couple of years, they end up in famine and killing,' Swedish author and historian Johan Norberg tells me. 'So they always come back to Scandinavia in the end.' True, Sweden has a significant welfare state, but Mr. Norberg says it’s underpinned by 'ruthless capitalism.'"

According to Daniel Schatz, visiting scholar, in a piece by NBC:

But as a Scandinavian political scientist who has studied Nordic politics, economy and history in depth, I do not feel the Bern. The Vermont senator has embraced an urban legend; his love affair with Scandinavian socialism gets it all wrong.

Contrary to the prevailing narrative, the success of Nordic countries like Sweden — as measured by relatively high living standards accompanied by low poverty, with government-funded education through university, universal health coverage, generous parental-leave policies and long life spans — precedes the contemporary welfare state.

In fact, when we examine Nordic politics, economy and history as exemplified by Sweden, we find that the Northern European success story was not achieved thanks to a welfare model funded by high taxes, but perhaps despite it. It is high time Sanders stops misleading his followers on this score.

Research has suggested that the Northern European success story has its roots in cultural rather than economic factors. The Scandinavian countries of Sweden, Norway and Denmark, which have a combined population roughly comparable to the greater New York City area, historically developed remarkably high levels of social trust, a robust work ethic and considerable social cohesion, according to economic experts and scholars such as Assar Lindbeck and Nima Sanandaji.

That social cohesion is missing in the US - by design. We are a nation of immigrants, a melting pot of various cultures. Our Constitution is a testament to the many compromises that were necessary in order to forge us into one nation.

"seem pretty happy with their systems."

How much is a case of advertising, the US media and academics are constantly complaining about and attacking capitalism and praising socialism. In socialist countries they do the same. After constant bombardment people tend to believe the hype.
Look at "police racism" in the US, a poll asking how many unarmed blacks are killed by police each year supposedly well educated liberal respondents thought it was in the thousands, when 13 (some claimed 26) is the right answer.Can't blame them when so many CNN analysts say it's an epidemic and cops are hunting them.

Actual personal comparison is rather rare, you have to live under both and get similar treatments in each. if I have a broken leg in Canada, vs having cancer in the US are they comparable? not really.

Costs that are hidden tend to be thought not to exist. Many people view tax day as a good thing since they get refunds, forgetting that it's just the change being given back from the year long payments.

They've already got more capitalism than the US does.
_________________________________________

Maybe Forbes is right, but I wonder why a lot more of the conservative media - like Fox News, maybe - don't say that in so many words, over and over. What are they afraid of? It would start to make the discussion a lot more complex and interesting, after all.

" don't say that in so many words, over and over. "

in general they do, about that and a hundred other things, but Democrats take great pride in never listening to or allowing the right to be heard. By shutting down, de-platforming, or just never listening to them. Along with a constant barrage of people calling anything the right says is a lie, even if some is heard it comes pre-poisoned.

Lenona, as Joe mentions I've heard that multiple times on a variety of conservative media. It is nothing new.

✔ Conan the Grammarian at July 13, 2021 9:20 AM

> I don't know just how many
> First World nations in
> Europe are...

Not to be snotty... Well, not *just* to be snotty, I'd say that one distinguishing characteristic of a First World nation is defense preparedness. By that metric, I'm not sure how much of Europe qualifies. Putin may dream of marching through with tanks and aircraft, but is certainly gaining mileage with corruption of banking and energy systems which supply Europe.

Getting old now, but still not finding reasons to adore the moral posture of any Euro nation in a broad and enduring way.

Conan, do the Nordic countries have notable incidence of generational economic dynamism? I remember reading something to the effect that the biggest family fortunes in Italy (Austria? Elsewhere?) were hundreds of years old... No Gateses, Bezoses or Jobses to be found.

I was curious so I took a quick look at the top richest in Norway, most didn't mention early family financial life. Two who do mention it didn't start out rich.
"Odd Reitan" mentions was son of single store grocers, so I'd say middle class, he owns chain of grocery stores worth $ 6.6 Bill (richest one)

3rd richest (Kjell Inge Røkke ) Røkke started out as a fisherman at the age of 18, and has no secondary or higher education now worth $4.3 Billion. Owns fleet of fishing vessels.

6th richest his father made the fortune. Gustav Magnar Witzøe

I wouldn't recognize the equivalent of a Kennedy or Rockefeller in Norway names.

Conan, do the Nordic countries have notable incidence of generational economic dynamism? ~ Crid at July 13, 2021 2:06 PM

To that I don't have an answer readily at hand. Joe j seems to have the yeoman's work on this one.

> There's a reason why the Cubans
> are protesting in the streets of
> Havana. And, folks, it ain't
> because of COVID.

It ain't our sequels either.

> Joe j seems to have the yeoman's work

Indeed… I hadn't read his comment. Man I wish I'd saved that article about Italy or wherever.

Meanwhile....

in general they do,

Does Fox News? It's not as though anyone can muzzle THEM.