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Well, you got the sap part right.

Please don't do that, Amy. You made me snort coffee all over my desk.

There, all cleaned up.

... my girlfriend of eight years ...

What are your intentions with respect to your girlfriend? And how long do you think you have to put them into action? The middle years (thirty to fifty or thereabouts) seem to last forever because you don't change much. But they pass just as fast as all the other years. There's no time to lose, my friend. Make things the way you want them, now.

Remove wishbone, insert backbone, and get the hellouttathere! 8 years?!? Is this guy blind or what? She's still in love with the ex and that's why she can't let go. How sad, for the both of them.

By the way, Glover's book is just terrific. If you know any wimpy guys, who delude/compliment themselves by calling themselves "nice guys," give them this book.

P.S. A guy who read this column of mine in Stars & Stripes sent Glover a note about it, and Glover forwarded it on to me. Here it is:

Dear Dr Glover; I am currently sitting here in a wooden hut next to the Baghdad International Airport, Iraq; working for //EDITED OUT BY AMY// and needed to write to you.

One Sunday last month in “Stars and Stripes” (our daily military newspaper); Amy Alkon was responding to an article a “Nice Guy” wrote to her, whining about this or that and mentioned your book and his need to probably purchase it; to help him with what he originally thought was his partners problem, not his.

The guy she was responding to sounded just like me.

I purchased it and read it in less then 2 days.

Where were you and this book when I was 16 years old and trying to figure out why Sally or Alice or whomever, still wanted to go out with the jerks, yet pined on about why their “jerks” couldn’t be more like me; yet I never got laid until I was 22?
I am just kidding you figuratively of course about the “where were you comment,” not about the Sally/Alice comment; that actually happened to me a lot.

But I wanted to thank you for possibly saving my life.
Up until now I was sitting here alone, in my hut whining about how my life “has gotten away from me.”

38 years old, 120 pounds overweight, wife is spending every dime she can get her hands on from my and her lucrative incomes, no sex life, etc etc etc.

After I read your book I went back to the gym which:
1. is free- provided by the military
2. less then 10 minutes away

But, I never went because it was too far away, too early, no energy, and so forth.
In less then 2 weeks I have already lost 10 pounds and can’t wait to get up at 4 AM to get to the gym and my date with the treadmill.

I set boundaries with my wife and OUR spending issues and felt more comfortable talking about our future when I come home; instead of making excuses on why I needed to stay out here any longer to make ends meet, pay our bills or whatever the original reason I came out here for.

I will be working on my sex life when I come home for the July 4th holiday. I was able to take a “no sex” moratorium activity easily here; since there are no females out here anyways.

But, in the essence of your book; I was able to see that I am comfortable being me, maybe making a mistake or two, setting boundaries and telling others dear to me exactly what I will or will not tolerate any longer.

And after just these two weeks; I also realized that my wife still loves me, we will not be in the poor house and that I can handle it.

Thank you again.
Warm regards,

Made my day. And Glover's, too, I'd bet.

Amy -

Spot on column, as always. While this is a well-tread subject, this nugget shined a little brighter (for me):

"She might care for him, but her real motivation is probably being too busy with safe, ego-boosting mommylove to risk real attachment in grownup love with you."

Excellent insight on what could easily have slipped by amid all the "no more Mr. Nice Guy" talk (which is just as important, but a little more obvious). I had a girlfriend in my younger (college) days who routinely went over the top for strangers, but typically shafted her closest friends and family members. Wasn't long before I was part of the inner circle of second-classers. The worst part was hearing from outsiders what an "amazing" person she was because she was so selfless with . . . . uh, everybody else. In addition to standing up for himself, this guy really needs to ask if she's worth any additional effort.

Thanks, and I agree with you on the additional effort part. I think people need to fix themselves instead of foisting their untherapized asses on other people. (Not that you necessarily need therapy to fix yourself.) For those on a budget, I think Albert Ellis' "A Guide To Rational Living" is about $10 on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0879800429?ie=UTF8&tag=advicegoddess-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0879800429

Thanks for making me laugh out loud at work, Amy...although this giggling alone in my cube might land me a "random" drug test.

I liked your advice that he should head to the bar when she ditches him and then go ahead and let her break up with him when she inevitably has a problem with his refusal to let her waste his time. She probably gets off on the fact that he's there patiently waiting while she's off "saving the world."

I think I dated what must have been her male equivalent, and, as it turned out, I handled it correctly, given that I ended up doing pretty much what you suggest to the letter writer (and your advice is, of course, always infallible).
I eventually decided that, whatever little game he was playing, I was going to win it. One night, after he'd been on the phone for almost 45 minutes (and this was a make-it-up-to-me date because he'd flaked on me 2 dates ago and had to leave our last one early because a "friend needed a ride"), I just got up and left his apartment, called some friends, and went to a bar.
And lo and behold, he calls me 3 times throughout the night to say that he's sorrrrryyyy and wants to seeee meeeee and gets all pissy when he hears bar noises in the background as I explain that it would be rude for me to ditch my friends.
The next day, I find out he whined to a mutual friend of ours that he "needs a girl who needs him just as much as he needs her" and that I must not care for him if I wasn't "even willing to wait for him." Not being into symbiosis myself, I don't really see this as a loss.

My point is, the LW's woman is probably feeding her self esteem by toying with his. This guy wasted just under 2 months of my life, and the sex was pretty darn good. The sex in the LW's relationship must be out of this world, if he's put up with this crap for 8 years.

I agree sofar. This man is saying that he and his girlfriend have limited time to be together and has put up with this behavior for the last 8 years? She must be an amazing lay to have let that be the status quo.

Amy was right to suggest that the LW go rent a pair and set this broad straight. Her consistently abandoning him to small talk with a man she hasn't slept with this century (One would hope) conveys her lack of respect toward both the LW and this supposed "limited time" they have to spend together. The LW also seems to feel somewhat guilty for making his feelings known to her when his complaints are met with threats to leave. Why hasn't he let her? The explanation must be that her vagina packs a hell of a punch.

You know, LW may not be such a sap. With eight years in and no wedding ring, he probably already knows this lady is no catch. Now he just needs to get past his own listless inertia and move on.

He has been putting up with this for 8 years?!? She's not going to change. The "ex" is clearly more important to her than he is. Time to move on...

I do my best not to upset her, but sometimes I let it be known I’m ticked off, and she flips out, and says she’ll leave me if I can’t handle her “talking to (her) friends.”

Why does anyone put up with that kind of blackmail? For those who aspire to find the self-respect deserved by a cockroach, here's the correct response: "Then GO!!"

This isn't calling someone's bluff. It's letting someone know that you're not going to be in a relationship with someone who is going to use the threat of abandonment to indulge in unacceptable rude behavior. Then do it. Push this person out of your life. There's no reconciliation possible past this point. In a way, it's kind of like being with a partner who hits you. You get them out the door, and you never see them again. Sure, they could show up with flowers the next day, tell them how sorry they are, and how they'll never do it again, but the minute you let them back in the door, you're not sending the message that hitting is unacceptable; you're telling that if they DO slip up and hit you, all they have to do is put on the penitent face, buy some roses and all is well again.

And so it is with this whole "if you can't handle the way I do things then I'm leaving..." That kind of ultimatum is the Rubicon of a breakup. There is no turning back from that. You eject them, they come groveling and say they didn't mean and they'll never do it again, you let them back in, and they do it again.

You know, LW may not be such a sap. With eight years in and no wedding ring, he probably already knows this lady is no catch. Now he just needs to get past his own listless inertia and move on.

Posted by: snakeman99 at June 6, 2007 3:53 PM

Why is a wedding ring some kind of evidence that a person is "great catch"? Losers get married all the time, (and they reproduce and make more losers) and quality individuals can also be the types who are secure in a relationship, but don't feel they need a ring.

I agree with Patrick. I have no intention of marrying again, but do plan on having a fulfilling relationship at some point, which I want to enjoy for as long as it is viable. If we are both respectful to each other and both happy, then it will be long-term on a day-to-day basis.

The longer I live the more I find myself regretting the way I walked away from important people in my life when I was younger over what now seem like inconsequential things.

The longer I practice the more I see the consequences of treating friends and companions as commodities we can throw away when they stop serving our needs. There's a lot of very lonely aged narcissicists out there.

Tell me ... who was it who decided the human heart was so small that there was room for only one significant other in it anyway?

The kind of thinking displayed in most of the posts here (including the original advice) isn't about love ... it's about conflating love with consumerism.

Making this mistake carries its own price ... which may not be fully evident until we're all wrinkled, withered, and dealing with the challenges that come at the end of life. You may really miss the ones you walked away from then ...

We're all human. Get used to it.

Oh, please. There's a difference between allowing somebody to treat you like a doormat and being a committed friend. I was part of "Team Cathy" -- a team of 20 people who took care of Cathy Seipp until she died of lung cancer...seeing that she was never alone, had rides to chemo, etc., and there was even a fund paid into by her friends to pay for her massages and nursing care. She got the friends she deserved. And I wouldn't put up with shit like the person writing is putting up with for a millisecond. The two things aren't the same. I suggest you read Glover's book -- sounds like you might need it.

"Making this mistake carries its own price ... which may not be fully evident until we're all wrinkled, withered, and dealing with the challenges that come at the end of life. You may really miss the ones you walked away from then ..."

Well just think! The LW could put up with her stupid nonsense for the NEXT THIRTY YEARS!!! Then the shrew would, what, change his bedpan during his old age? Clearly he should develop a much smaller sense of self-esteem, because if he doesn't learn to lower his standards and settle for ill treatment, he could wind up (gasp!) ALONE!!! The horror, the horror ...

It's still better to BE single than to WISH you were single.

"Tell me ... who was it who decided the human heart was so small that there was room for only one significant other in it anyway?"

The person who realized that STDs are spread by sexual contact?

"The kind of thinking displayed in most of the posts here (including the original advice) isn't about love ... it's about conflating love with consumerism."

From what I can see, we're talking about a situation in which a woman is treating her boyfriend like a commodity - That Guy who will buy her dinner and provide her with sex so that she can focus on the important task of holding the hand of her completely helpless ex-boyfriend. People waste enormous amounts of their lives hoping and praying that people who hurt them will change. Unless those people are, say, your minor children, at some point you have to cut the cord. The letter-writer was talking about a painful situation. The rest of the posters here are discussing similar painful situations. Why are they supposed to endure this pain rather than seeking out less painful relationships with people who view them as individuals with their own wants and needs rather than as subordinate objects?

"Tell me ... who was it who decided the human heart was so small that there was room for only one significant other in it anyway?"

The human heart is plumbing.

And both Marion and Pirate Jo are exactly right.

"Tell me ... who was it who decided the human heart was so small that there was room for only one significant other in it anyway?"

I take you've never had a girlfriend...

Unfortunately, this has nothing to do with love on her part. It is all about power. She has an ex who seemingly can't breathe without checking in with her. And then she has her gentleman-in-waiting, who sits there patiently waiting for the scraps of attention she throws to him.

And although I sound quite harsh about it, I have earned it, because I used to be a lady-in-waiting. No, there wasn't any regular ex, but there were an army of friends, relatives, pets, mosquitos, you name it, that he collected around him. He dolloped out little spoonfuls of attention, and he was an incredibly funny, charming guy. But EVENTUALLY I just got plain bored. Spending an hour of doing nothing, waiting for him to get off the phone just so I could have my 30 seconds was tedious. Thank god for boredom. That was the stick that finally got me moving.

"Tell me ... who was it who decided the human heart was so small that there was room for only one significant other in it anyway?"

Ya know, it's people like you that make us hard-working, honest ethical sluts look bad. Yes, there is such a thing as caring, considerate polymory.

It's not easy, and part of the reason it's not easy is that it involves being emotionally honest, avoiding game playing, respecting your primary relationship, and treating your multiple parters with respect and consideration, not playing them against each other. I don't see any of these things happening in the LW's relationship, so the veiled implication that everyone here is being closed-minded and not appreciating a lovely multiple-partner situation is just, um, stooopid.

Ref'd above:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethical_Slut

It's refreshing to read advice that doesn't skirt around issues but says exactly what needs to be said.

This man needs to stand up for himself and stop letting people take advantage. If you let people do that, they will continue to do it and take more and more liberties.

Dear Amy and Everyone Else,

I am the sap's girlfriend who talks quite often with my ex, as we have a pretty good post-relationship friendship. I really don't know all of the reasons for this, as I do not talk to any of my other former boyfriends at all. However, I can say that my ex-boyfriend is a wonderful person who does not deserve to be kicked to the curb just b/c our romantic relationship didn't work out. I do agree that the everyday talking is strange though, and it is stressful for me just as it is my sweet sap.

I did realize after reading the article and thinking a bit that the numerous phone calls are due to my ex calling me "whenever he has cancer of the hangnail" or whatever other daily ailment bothers him. Thus, I am going to try to simply not answer the phone every time it rings, as I love the sap and do not want to hurt him. I am also making sure that I don't interrupt our time together, which I was doing but didn't fully realize this till I read the article and thought about it a bit-yes, that was quite rude and insensitive of me!

Oh, and in reference to the ego hypothesis stated above to explain my behavior, you all are not even close! It has a lot more to do guilt, as I loved my ex quite a bit. I, however, was dishonest in our relationship, which he did not deserve in any way, shape, or form. In fact, I like to call him the last of the freakin' Mohicans, as there just aren't many people, male or female, around that are quite as sweet and decent as this guy. So, I basically have a serious problem with what I did, and just don't want to hurt my ex or anyone else in any way again. This endeavor is proving to be difficult though.

Anyway, I am going to do my best to cut the talking with the ex significantly down, as I don't want to hurt my sweet sap in another very different, but also awful way!

Oh, and that marriage comment above was totally lame.

Warm Regards,
Guilty

Wow, very cool of you to post that -- and to make an effort to change.