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Congradu-fucking-lations lady, you will soon be the proud new parent of a child who will grow up to hate and resent your very presence, and more than likley spend afternoons think of various ways to kill you.

This is why I hte the majority of people I run across. "Poor me, I married a loser I'm not really attracted to all because I was out of time and no one can meet my expectations"

Crazy woman probably doesnt even realize that the reason she finds people attractive is beacuse they treat her like dispoable trash, she needs therapy

And what kind of moron marrys a freind who isnt in love with you? When in the course of history has a relationship ever worked out because the woman your in love with settled on you because she couldnt get what she really wanted

My advice GET DIVORCED, and kids you have will resent you for it. Growing up in Utah I cant tell you how many of my freind were what we called "Elmer babies" Stupid selfish people who thought having a child or two or four or six would glue them together as a 'real familly'

What is the result - when they finally get off to college and on with their own lives the self centerd assholes called 'parents' cant understand why their children cant stand the sight of them.

So you know what Chrushed, you made a comitment, deal with it. You want to screw around get a divorce, but for the love of god, or wht ever half baked crap you worship dont EVER have kids

-- not because she can’t keep her hands off firemen, police chiefs, loggers, astronauts, corporate presidents, and broad-shouldered traveling salesmen.

Reminds me of the night I realized that I loved my boyfriend, now my husband. We had been dating about a month at the time, and just had a car accident- we got broadsided and plowed straight through an intersection. I was standing on the curb trying to stay out of the way, and he was in the street with the tow-truck driver. I was a little in shock, I guess, I just watched paramedics haul away the other driver- elderly lady with a bloody face. I didn't notice right away, but a crowd of firemen and paramedics had gathered around me. I noticed they were there when one spoke to me, and you can imagine how they looked, all muscles and uniforms and friendly smiles. At the same time, I looked over at Joseph- he spent most weekends carefully working on that car, which was now upside-down on the median with one side collapsed. He must have been completely bummed, but still had his characteristic cheerful demeanor, joking with the tow truck driver as he picked his mangled bumper up out of the street. I went over to check on him, and didn't even look back. (Ok, so I looked, but only for a second, and not overtly.)

You don't see advice columnists say it often, but really, if the spark isn't there, you don't have it, and you're not going to get it. It isn't something you can work on even if you try, much less with such a sad, because-he-was-there attitude. And crap, why is it so many of the most immature, thoughtless people want kids so bad? It's so unfair to the kids they have that get stuck with such un-prepared parents.

I see her point. Really, is there anything that can make a marriage work better than really attractive shoulders?

Her comments about her "best friend" are harsh. "Pulling his shoulders forward like he’s trying to hide his head" might be mentioned more positively as "poor posture" or doesn’t strut around like a lion tamer," and "Timid and socially awkward" could be more charitably viewed as "shy and sweetly reserved." And what kind of crack is "Only mutters witticisms under his breath"?! My sister’s husband does the same, and he is the wittiest man I know. I yearn to hear all of his quiet witticisms; the fact that I can't adds a touch of drama or mystery to the man.

Crushed by Crushes paints such an unflattering picture of her "best friend," it seems as if her security rests on his shortcomings. Nobody would want him, so she is safe not to lose him.

Personal: I accidentally fell in love with a long-term friend who was married to a yakky, loud woman who always disparaged him. Frankly, I also though he was a loser, too. Weird looking, shy, smelly strings of goo when he smiled, and the nose hairs! But we shared some meals without the yakking wife, and he had space to talk, and I got to know him. His knowledge of languages, his adventurous spirit, his hidden wit, the gentle way he described his nutty family... I was struck with love, true love, persisting still.

(The strings of goo, and nose hairs, just need the attention of a sweet wife wielding a toothbrush and a nose trimmer!)

The happy ending? When his wife became aware of our "emotional affair" she went ape-shit to win him back, and through my eyes, due to another woman wanting her man, she was able to see him as the marvelous human being he truly is.

Maybe husband-of-LW is also outstanding, for one who has the eyes and heart to know him.

As for children, I disagree with Amy, et. al. Making a poor choice in marriage, does not imply that she will be a bad mother! She might cause chaos to the child if she deserts the dad. But raising a child in a "friendly platonic marriage" is NOT chaotic or harmful to the child. Nor is raising a child in a non-traditional household without a husband, provided there are two involved, nurturing parents.

And crap, why is it so many of the most immature, thoughtless people want kids so bad?

Because kids represent immortality. Plus, the kids that friends have look cute and say adorable things. And people want someone to visit them in the nursing home, and are afraid they won't be able to accumulate friends who will do so. Etc. etc.

Making a poor choice in marriage, does not imply that she will be a bad mother! She might cause chaos to the child if she deserts the dad. But raising a child in a "friendly platonic marriage" is NOT chaotic or harmful to the child.

That household doesn't sound friendly to me, and her husband doesn't sound as though he wants a platonic relationship. This woman married someone she considers a loser just because she wanted to breed (rather than, say, adopting a baby from China) and is now clearly contemptuous of him. She didn't make a poor choice in marriage because she was blinded by love and promises - she's selfish. Having children won't magically change that.

Nor is raising a child in a non-traditional household without a husband, provided there are two involved, nurturing parents.
There's a whole lot of social science that says otherwise. Not to mention the fact that I see nothing that leads me to believe that she's particularly nurturing, and you have no way of knowing that this guy would be nurturing and involved if she dumped him after she acquired his sperm. If you want to argue that keeping a toxic marriage together for the sake of the "children" is a bad idea, go right ahead. But this "marriage" is a nasty trainwreck waiting to happen, and you're suggesting that this woman willingly bring in a couple of super-needy little hostages to fortune? God, no. The only good thing I have to say about this woman is that she hasn't bred with her "loser" husband yet.

Sorry, third from last sentence in above post shouldn't have quotes around "children."

Key-riste, how very freakin' sad for the both of them - apparently, Crushed is an extremely selfish twat and her poor timid and socially awkward husband is a loser. And she thinks children are going to fix this? She's delusional was well. It's too late for therapy! But let's hope she tries to get some anyway, and includes her husband. Before they have kids. And let's hope the therapist can put her off of that idea for the foreseeable future. Gads, Amy, how can you stand it?!? o_O

Crid? Crid where are you?! *THIS* is where lack of foresight of one's marriage and child bearing is wildly dangerous. Stop her, Crid-o, stop her before she adds children into this society and her marriage crumbles in 10 years after hubby snaps b/c wifey is an unhappy cheater!!

This will end badly, but if children are not involved that may be one saving grace.

"Nor is raising a child in a non-traditional household without a husband, provided there are two involved, nurturing parents." You are correct in part, using the most controversy fueled example of gay marriage. Kids of gay couples are well adjusted provided that the parents are well adjusted, and a support structure is available. This women is none of these things.

She's chasing "exciting, ambitious, bold men who never want anything to do with me." They want nothing to do with her for a reason. My guess would be one or all of these:
1) She looks like a used doormat, might be a cheap laugh with the right print once in a while but something you hide when company is coming.

2) She's bat shit crazy and doesn't hide it very well. The first thing these guys find out about her is that she wants kids with them yesterday.

Emailed Crid to stop by.

Making a poor choice in marriage, does not imply that she will be a bad mother!

Being selfish as hell does.

Oh, P.S., as somebody who has always had a thing for the geeks of the world, there's nothing that makes a guy who's a little, uh, unsocial, stand up straight and speak up like the feeling that the woman he's with thinks he's the cat's pajamas and great in bed.

Why on earth would you want to have children with someone you do not really seem to like that much?

I mean, shouldn't the point be that you really want to have kids that are half you and half the person you are with? Apparently she was too busy thinking "MUST.... SPAWN..... NOW!!!" to really consider that her children may very well end up with all of the traits she seems to hate in her husband?

This woman is CRAZY!!! Just because you married someone does not mean you are ready to have children. AND who says time is running out now days. Science and medicine can make women have children much later in life now. People amaze me with the whole it is getting late excuse. I have a son by a previous relationship and we get along fine... WHY..because he is DEAD... It works well for me. It was not always like that.. He made my life miserable for 5 years. After him I "settled" for someone because I was tired of dating and what a mistake that was... 2 years later I text messaged him with I am done and pick your crap up on my front door step by tomorrow night (a little cold, I know). I took some time off from the dating scene and eventually met my husband. We now have a daughter, "our" son and a healthy environment to raise children in.

The message here is do not settle because time is running out. You will waste alot more with someone you do not love or even like in this case. Your children will resent you and you will teach to settle in life.

As is almost always the case with these letters, the question-marked sentence is really just a distraction. The conjunctions are more useful; every letter has a "but" or a "yet" that represents the real heart of the matter. In this case "I gambled that being with a good, reliable man would cure me of my pointless crushes, [-]and[-] married my best friend."

The friendship was something that belonged to her and she felt justified in "spending" it on a chance at happiness. I think at some level she realizes what a monstrous thing she has done and she is looking for absolution. I suspect many of Amy's customers are looking for absolution even if they claim to be seeking advice. (I'm picturing Amy wearing a cassock in a confessional booth and she doesn't look happy in there.)

Another common feature of these letters is that the other party to the problem at hand is either minimally described or demonized. But in this case, Husband comes through pretty well. Okay, so he's socially awkward, has poor posture...and is (or was anyway) HER best friend. He comes through pretty well; I think I've met this guy. She reveals more than she means to.

And this sentence: "My husband sensed something was up, and now worries whenever I travel." jumped at me. Consider the following domestic portrait: The social butterfly wife thinks of herself as an expert in human interaction and of her more reserved husband as an abject failure in reading people. She assumes that she is privy to everyone's innermost thoughts and feelings and that she is able to conceal things from her husband through the simple mechanism of not telling him.

The fact that he is on to her is beyond her comprehension. His changed behavior in response to this conflict within her is barely worth mentioning to her. When "reserved" people do or say anything, smart people who know them pay attention. She assumes that the full range of choices in the situation belong to her. She may want to sit down and watch "The Man Who Wasn't There (2001)." It's a dark film that ends darkly, maybe too overly dramatic to have meaningful parallels for her, but she should consider that quiet waters run deep. Her husband probably worships her and is willing to put up with a lot. But everyone has limits.

Oh, and her mindless urge to breed should be captured in a work of post-modern art and used to create a series of condom posters aimed at young men. Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

"Oh, P.S., as somebody who has always had a thing for the geeks of the world, there's nothing that makes a guy who's a little, uh, unsocial, stand up straight and speak up like the feeling that the woman he's with thinks he's the cat's pajamas and great in bed." As a geek I can say with absolute certainty, yes. Wow if I didn't know better I'd say you give good advice for a living.

"Making a poor choice in marriage, does not imply that she will be a bad mother!" If you know it's a poor choice going in and still do it then you will be a bad mother.

One of the key thing any parent can instill in a child (which covers most of the basics) is: If the idea is a bad one and you know it's a bad one then don't do it.

Agreed that no one should have children without a stable and loving pair of parents. Still although science can extend human female fecundity the chances of poor outcomes increase very significantly with age over 40. I work in genetic disease and see the results every day.

Oh...my...god....I can't think of anything else to say about this nut.

If what a woman wants is a man who will be a good father to their kids, maybe there's something to be said for the kind of predictable, dull guys who are reliable breadwinners. I know of a couple who have that dynamic going on. What the Missus wanted was KIDS, so she found a dorky, socially inept guy who was good at making money. No way was he going anywhere without her permission - she called all the shots and had him totally henpecked into submission. He makes great money, so she was able to quit her job and stay home with the kids - and all without losing their nice house in the suburbs. He, on the other hand, got the kind of hot-looking wife who wouldn't have looked at him twice in high school or college. The poor bastard actually thinks he married up.

She's got what she always wanted, and if that meant she had to give up on the idea of finding a guy who makes her heart race, well, at least she had her priorities straight. The guy IS a good father and a reliable source of money. I'll bet she enjoys being home with her kids, and she'll probably dump him and find the "love of her life" when the kids are grown and out of the house. Come to think of it, I know more than one couple with that dynamic. It makes me glad I've never had the desire to have kids.

Science and medicine can make women have children much later in life now.

There's only so much science and medicine can do to compensate for aging eggs. Most of the 45+ women bearing babies that you hear about are using donor eggs. Now, donor eggs are a much-welcome option for some people, especially those who really want the experience of pregnancy but don't care about the genetic ties. However, if you're willing to marry someone you're not attracted to just because your biological clock is running out, generally you want genetic children, as opposed to non-genetic legal children. If you just want to be a *parent*, you have a lot of options - adoption, donor gametes - that let you ignore the biological clock. I don't think strongly wanting to have genetic children makes you a terrible person, but I think treating other people selfishly in pursuit of that goal does.

If what a woman wants is a man who will be a good father to their kids, maybe there's something to be said for the kind of predictable, dull guys who are reliable breadwinners.

I don't think you have to have a burning passion for someone to have a good marriage. I do think that you have to LIKE and respect your spouse in order to have a good marriage. Having children with someone you don't like and respect is a recipe for hell, in my opinion, and while I think you can have a happy marriage with someone without having a rapturous sex life, I think trying to maintain a sex life with someone to whom you're not attracted *at all* creates a strong sense of distaste for the other person.

I'm reminded of these lines from Jane Austen's Mansfield Park:

She had despised him, and loved another; and he had been very much aware that it was so. The indignities of stupidity, and the disappointments of selfish passion, can excite little pity. His punishment followed his conduct, as did a deeper punishment the deeper guilt of his wife. He was released from the engagement to be mortified and unhappy, till some other pretty girl could attract him into matrimony again, and he might set forward on a second, and, it is to be hoped, more prosperous trial of the state: if duped, to be duped at least with good humour and good luck...

I don't think that every marriage is the stuff of which romance novels are made, but at the very least, one should able to expect "good humour and good luck."

So what did I miss? Oh, yeah that. Interesting.

Luljp's right.

And let's all agree that "Elmer marriages" is funny. What's Utah really like? I flew through the airport once. It was very crowded, but I saw zero black people. This was like 2005.

> Making a poor choice in
> marriage, does not imply
> that she will be a bad
> mother!

Strongly disagree. There's a lot to be said for a system which demands that parents show competence in a fundamental bonding first, one where the commitment has intensely practical and intimate responsibilities.

Marion gives us principle and then attentiveness is a fabulous passage:

> There's a whole lot of social
> science that says otherwise.
> Not to mention the fact that I
> see nothing that leads me to
> believe that she's particularly
> nurturing,

With the thumb of the left hand I can count the number of women between ages 15 and 55 who've acknowledged that they were a bad mother. Heroin addicts at the race track on Tuesday morning with naked twins locked in the closet of the Motel 6 will say "I'm a great mom! I love my kids!"

> a "but" or a "yet" that represents
> the real heart of the matter.

I love text analysis tricks like that.

> I work in genetic disease and see
> the results every day.

Is this the kind of thing you're talking about? (mid-column)

> This will end badly, but if
> children are not involved that
> may be one saving grace.

I had a marriage like that once! I'm short with shitty shoulders, too. Anyway, it's great that everyone agrees the advice this woman gets should be about containing damage, and not necessarily making this person feel twinkly-sparkly happy.

marion wrote:
"I don't think you have to have a burning passion for someone to have a good marriage. I do think that you have to LIKE and respect your spouse in order to have a good marriage."

Agreed. I have 2 friends with parents who had arranged marriages (they were set up by their families and met on the day they became officially engaged). In one, the couple got lucky and fell in love. The other couple never really got the hots for each other. Both couples are content, and both marriages are thriving. I suspect that this is due to the attitude developed by their culture and upbringing that the purpose of marriage is to bring together 2 people who will 1) Work as a team to raise kids; 2) respect each other and each other's families; 3)happily care for eachother and do their best to make their spouse happy (if this doesn't happen through sex, it happens through thoughtfulness and support)

HOWEVER

The LW clearly indicates that she feels she SHOULD be attracted to her husband and SHOULD feel romantic love for him. AND that she frequently develops romantic feelings for other men that she WISHES existed in her marriage. What she's got is the marriage equivalent of staying in a boring job just to make a living.

Romantic love and attraction bond two people like nothing else. Successful, happy marriages that produce well-adjusted children can be formed without these things. But, if you have a need for romantic love and attraction in your marriage (and the LW clearly does), marrying your "best friend" will only make you resentful and empty when those kids grow up and you have nothing tying you to the sad sack who was essentially a sperm donor.

"as somebody who has always had a thing for the geeks of the world"

I, too, am a geek fan. I've been watching the first 'Beauty & the Geek' and find most of them very sweet. The cutie I'm seeing now reminds me of John, post-makeover.

Sorry, John is from Season 4!

In ten years time, I hope the husband grows the balls to sue the letterer for fraud when he finds out he's been cuckolded (as he surely will have been).

"Making a poor choice in marriage, does not imply that she will be a bad mother!"

A poor choice in Marriage, or a poor choice in who she's attracted to? Should she marry a guy who is exciting and uninterested? Marrying that "geek" is probably the smartest move this pinhead has ever made.

This part kills me:
"Luckily, the new man doesn’t threaten my marriage, but only because he doesn’t want kids. My husband sensed something was up, and now worries whenever I travel."

Oh no, no threat to the "marriage" at all... *egads!*

Out of curiosity, what is the "biological desire" to have kids? Is it truly biological, like being hungry, thirsty, or too warm/cold? What does it feel like? I don't think I've ever experienced it, so I truly have no idea.

figured I’d grow to love him as a husband.

Uhhh...yeah...

This marriage is doomed. Doomed, doomed, doomed.

The only reason she isn't cheating on her husband with they guy is because he doesn't want to spawn?!?

Bleaaaargh!

And Focus on the Family want us to believe that the GAYS are a threat to the "sanctity" of marriage?!!?

Her marriage to her "friend" is nothing more than "you'll do until I meet someone I REALLY like". Only a very self absorbed person would show that much disrespect to her "bestest friend".

I don't understand how anyone can marry someone they don't love. Maybe I'm just a hopless romantic. I understand that in life you have to lower your standards a little sometimes but that doesn't mean giving up on what you want.

You're those type of women we all hate. You sit around screwing over the good guys and turn them into regretful jerks. No wonder it's so hard to find a good man, because they turn into jerks after meeting you.

Or should I say, no wonder you can't find a man who can love you. No wonder you had to marry a friend because you're just crap that you can't even find love.

You're lucky, your friend even married you. Or else you would be just another old hag who can't find a man because she's too much of an old Bi0tch.

Oh, one other thing I meant to comment on:

I’d hate to lose my best friend over this.

Translated: I want to resolve this somehow without making my husband mad at me, because then I won't be able to consider myself a good person.

Call me cynical, but whenever I hear of people wanting to break up with others but worrying strongly about "being able to be friends with them," I equate that to, "I want to end this without feeling bad about my actions." Adults accept that breaking up with someone exposes them to the risk that the other person will think negatively of them, and accept that. Life is not consequence-free.

I'm in full agreement with you, Marion.

There were several statements the LW made which caused the fire alarms to go off (and the "...hate to lose my best friend..." was one of them).

This woman clearly has some serious issues going on...she needs to figure out what is going on inside that delusional head and start doing some spring cleaning---without her "socially awkward best friend". She has the air of someone looking to take on all the gain without incurring much loss; she doesn't want to be the bad guy, even if she's conscious of what she's doing that is wrong.

My Ex did this...he left me, put me through hell, etc. etc. and then about a month after I was served with divorce papers (unexpectedly...long story) he gets all wishy-washy, wanting to maintain friends. I told him that I couldn't be friends with someone who could treat another so badly, he screams "fine! Go ahead and throw away a 9 year friendship!" Life doesn't work that way. No one has successfully been able to have their cake and eat it, too.

I feel bad for that poor husband...he was probably all starry-eyed about her and perhaps is now seeing her for what she really is. He deserves a loving gal who will appreciate everything about him and not run in the other direction whenever she smells some "exciting, ambitious, bold man who never wants anything to do with her" nearby.

"Out of curiosity, what is the "biological desire" to have kids? Is it truly biological, like being hungry, thirsty, or too warm/cold? What does it feel like? I don't think I've ever experienced it, so I truly have no idea."

The Reproductive Instinct is VERY real, although it appears to vary in intensity among different women. I'm sure it's not an immediate desire, (like hunger or cold) but a less conscious, instinctual one.

Re: biological desire

Hmmm, interesting idea. There do seem to be some women who appear to approach finding a sperm donor the same way they would "search & destroy" to find food or a blanket if they were hungry or cold.

I'm off to search the internet for any studies that test to see if the same areas of the brain are active when a hungry person is shown a cheeseburger or a childless, wanting 40 year old woman is shown a baby.

What is a "loser" anyway? Dichotomising people into either "winner" or "loser" is incorrect. In reality, a human being will tend to fall somewhere in between the two poles of "winner" and "loser." Furthermore a person may be a relative "winner" in some areas and a relative "loser" in others. Also, a person can change over time.

I'm so sick of the judgmental term "loser" applied to any person. It makes me wonder what the motive of the person applying it is.

I agree with MIOnline. In the 1960's when I was a kid, calling someone a "loser" was an old-timer's way of looking at things, It was something from the day when circuses used to have disabled freaks in them. I thought maybe it had something to do with the GI bill... That everyone went to college and learned a few things about luck and probability, and knew better than to assume that success and failure were givens.

Anyway, it seemed like Sinatra's generation was the last one to use the word that way. Maybe not.

"Out of curiosity, what is the "biological desire" to have kids? Is it truly biological, like being hungry, thirsty, or too warm/cold? What does it feel like? I don't think I've ever experienced it, so I truly have no idea."

I can tell you my experience. Until my early 30's I was uninterested in having children. What a crimp in one's lifestyle. But then I found myself longing for children. For many years, I very badly wanted a child of my own and dreamed longingly of helping the child learn new things. I read with fascination boos on child development. I tried two marriages with men with which I hoped to build families. I loved forming bonds with the children of friends. The burning desire for children was somewhat like the need we have for friends and love.

Eventually I found I could *not* bear my own children, for several firm reasons. I spent several years in grief, yet forcing myself to not be jealous and view others' successful childbearing with joy.

In my mid-40's I came to terms with not being able to have children, and began to appreciate the joys of being able to sleep through the night, jaunt off on imromptu adventures, and so forth. However, I still love to meet and bond with children.

I truly think that my yearning for children was biological, as it spanned ten years, with acceptance of childnessness on either end.

Just my experience.

Oh, the "biological clock" idea is bogus IMO. I think it's a grandmothering instict, rather.

I'm so sick of the judgmental term "loser" applied to any person.

Just to clarify: I don't think the LW's husband is a "loser." I was using the term to describe what she thinks of him. His only real flaw, as far as I can see, is failing to look the gift horse in the mouth when the woman who (I'm guessing) he'd loved for a long time suddenly turned to him and said, "I love you too" - and I think most people in that situation would behave exactly the same way. Somewhere out there there's a woman who would love the sotto voce witticisms and see the guy's habit with his shoulders as charming. Too bad he's currently married to the LW. If anyone's a "loser" here, it's the LW.

Oh, the "biological clock" idea is bogus IMO.

Uh...not sure what you mean by that. Because it's perfectly true that women only have a finite amount of time in which to bear biological children. Some are never able to - and I'm sorry that you weren't, as that sucks - and some are able to at, say, 47 without medical aid, but in general, women stop being fertile at some point in their 40s. The LW may have many, many issues, but unless she's in her 20s with no health issues that will terminate her fertility prematurely, she probably does have a limited amount of time to have bio-kids. One can have a wonderful life without bio-kids, but if you want them, being realistic about not having forever to have them isn't unreasonable.

My Ex did this...he left me, put me through hell, etc. etc. and then about a month after I was served with divorce papers (unexpectedly...long story) he gets all wishy-washy, wanting to maintain friends. I told him that I couldn't be friends with someone who could treat another so badly, he screams "fine! Go ahead and throw away a 9 year friendship!"

Ah yes, one of those charming exes who tries to beat you down into friendship. It's kinda freaky when someone goes to great lengths to tell you just how much you suck and then uses that as an argument for why you should stay friends. Don't know about everyone else, but I have no desire to be friends with people that I don't like or respect.

Renee, your comments make sense, but I still don't see how that makes the desire for children biological. At least, any more than any of our other desires are biological. You like kids, enjoy being around them, imagine the fun things you would do, and it sounds great. I'm sure you are perfectly well aware that having kids takes a lot of time and money, involves some stress, and yet you still think it would be worth it anyway. Sounds good to me - you know what you want! If only everyone did that!

But is it really any different than dreaming of visiting Ireland, or wanting a dog, or wanting to live in a certain place, or do a particular thing for a living? I seems to me like just another version of a life you could dream of having for yourself - albeit the one you favor the most. I am very skeptical of the idea that the desire for parenthood is "special" in some way that makes it any different than any other goals and dreams we have for ourselves.

Not that it really matters, particularly, but I think that sometimes "biological cravings" are given as an excuse for people to reproduce for the wrong reasons, or as an excuse for doing it without any thinking or reasoning at all. The silly 16-year-old who thinks having a baby will make her boyfriend stay, or that it will provide her with someone to love her, or give her something to do with herself because she'd rather not go through the mental effort of evaluating other options, can always say "maternal instinct" made her do it. When it's really just giving in to an impulse devoid of any common sense whatsoever. I say, quit using biology as an excuse! If you go weak in the knees for that souped-up little convertible with leather seats and spend more than you can afford, do you say your biological clock made you do it?

If you go weak in the knees for that souped-up little convertible with leather seats and spend more than you can afford, do you say your biological clock made you do it?

Silly Pirate Jo, that's the man's biological clock! o_O

"Not that it really matters, particularly, but I think that sometimes "biological cravings" are given as an excuse for people to reproduce for the wrong reasons, or as an excuse for doing it without any thinking or reasoning at all."

At times, I'm sure this is true. People do many things for all kinds of different reasons, and will fall back on the one that sounds the most "excusable".

Another way of looking at it: (I'm going to compare humans to animals again, please humor me) It's an accepted fact that if one is going to spay their cat, if it can be accomodated, it's best to allow the cat to have a litter of kittens first. If you don't, there is a good chance (not ALWAYS, but most often) this will mess the cat up, health as well as mentally.

All humans have the reproductive instinct. The female body was designed to have babies, if not allowed to do so, it's an unfulfilled function, and can cause problems. As said, this is not as strong in all women, some it may not be a "problem" at all.

Do you know any women who are unable to concieve children? I've known many, and they are all messed up about it. It'll be a "chink in thier armour" that will not go away until they reach menopause, then their body will no longer serve that function. Then all of a sudden it's not such a big deal to them.

To doubt the biological desire to have children, would you then also doubt Maternal Instinct? Reproductive Instinct?? they are all tied together.

"'If you go weak in the knees for that souped-up little convertible with leather seats and spend more than you can afford, do you say your biological clock made you do it?'

Silly Pirate Jo, that's the man's biological clock! o_O"

That's why we guys get all excited about a woman wearing leather. She smells like a new truck!

Morbideus:

Thing I have to nitpick on:
It is no longer accepted by the veterinarian community that a cat should have kittens before being spayed. It used to be accepted knowledge, but nowadays they prefer to spay the cats even before their first heat.
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thanks for the lightbulb moment amy. i'm only just in my 20s, but i'm terrified of rejection. sounds silly, huh? i'm young, not ugly, not a raging psychopath and logically, i have no reason to be afraid, but i am. wow. so simple, yet such a revelation. i am notorious for dating inappropriate people, ones i am almost guarenteed to have let me down, and if they don't, i give them a reason to. and suddenly it's all so clear...now how do i fix it?

"That's why we guys get all excited about a woman wearing leather. She smells like a new truck!"

Now that's funny! My dad will love that one.

What "problems" are caused by a woman not having babies?

Yes, I've known a couple of women who had trouble conceiving, and yes they were pretty stressed about it. I just don't know that it was *biologically* motivated. People get equally stressed about pursuing other things they want in life. In some cases, people develop unhealthy obsessions about it - focusing more on wanting what they can't have than taking a step back and looking at all the great things in life they CAN have. Why do we call it biological (and by extension something you can't help) when it's the desire to have children, but we tell someone they just need to get their priorities straight if it's an unbalanced fixation on something else?

Maternal instinct ... well, as a matter of fact I question whether that exists. You aren't born knowing how to take care of an infant, the way cats instinctively know how to take care of their babies. Your parents or friends or pediatrician have to teach you those things. It is true that women's hormones kick in big-time after the birth of a baby, which makes them feel powerful emotional surges of love and also keeps them from feeding their baby to wild dingoes after three straight nights of screaming and colic. So yes, of course it would be silly to deny that women's bodies go through some distinct and powerful changes through the process of pregnancy and childbirth. But you're going to have to be a bit more specific about what you mean by maternal instinct - it sounds all mystical and swishy to me.

I don't believe in a reproductive instinct - just that sex feels good and people like to do it.

Regarding the biological urge to reproduce, all I'll say is that I'd be surprised if there weren't some sort of biological drive to perpetuate one's genes. One of the first things I learned in biology class was, "Reproduce, or your genes will disappear from the population." Evo bio pretty much seems to center around reproduction - not that every guy who is attracted to a woman with a great waist-hip ratio wants kids, but that the foundation for the nature of the attraction is a fertility signal. The difference between humans and animals is that we're sentient, and thus the lack of desire in our sentient minds for children can override any sort of instinct we have...but that doesn't mean that I think that instinct doesn't exist.

That having been said, instinct, if it exists, does not get one off the hook for being responsible about when one has kids. And people can desperately want kids for their own selfish reasons - to "have someone to love them," to fit in with society, to catch a Maaaaannnnnn. I define maternal instinct as being willing to sacrifice oneself in a second, in big and little ways, for the good of one's child, whether that sacrifice be stepping in the path of a bullet or disciplining the kid despite his sobs that tear at your heart. The LW doesn't seem to be displaying this type of selflessness to me. I bet that, if she had a kid, she'd be whining in a few months about how she never gets to sleep any more and how she never has time to put on makeup. (Note: I certainly think that new parents have the right to vent about the difficulties of caring for a newborn. Babies are tough. But someone who deliberately exposes her "best friend" to this sort of mess solely because she wants to spawn in a socially approved manner gets little sympathy from me.)

It is no longer accepted by the veterinarian community that a cat should have kittens before being spayed. It used to be accepted knowledge, but nowadays they prefer to spay the cats even before their first heat.

Yep. Sorry to digress from the thread, but if you're getting a cat, please don't fall for the "but it's better for her to have kittens" thing. That idea has long since been discarded. I love cats (and dogs), but there are way too many of them in the world compared to people who want to have them, so unless you've gotten a pet from a breeder and are planning on going into the specialized world of controlled breeding, please get the pet spayed/neutered ASAP. To tie this back to the thread...I guess it shouldn't amaze me that so many people are irresponsible about this, given how so many people approach human breeding, but it does. When reproduction comes into the picture, everyone's brains fly out the window. I guess that's necessary for the propagation of the species - the idea of trading a comfortable adult life for the full-time caretaking of a helpless squalling creature does seem somewhat absurd on its face - but it still depresses me.

"Thing I have to nitpick on:
It is no longer accepted by the veterinarian community that a cat should have kittens before being spayed. It used to be accepted knowledge, but nowadays they prefer to spay the cats even before their first heat.
[/threadhijack]"

I hadn't heard that, but spaying before it reaches sexual maturity does make sense. What if, however, it HAS had it's first heat?

Pirate Jo,

"What "problems" are caused by a woman not having babies?"

Hang out with a few women who CAN'T have babies. Not trouble concieveing, but CAN'T. I've known several, and many will fly into rage and hysterics if you even mention them having kids.

I mentioned Maternal Instinct under the ssumption it was a commonly accepted example, it's why lesbians have so many dogs. So they have something to take care of. If you want scientific evidence, everyone knows any article or study can be discounted by another article or study presented by an opposing theory.

I also view the instinct to reproduce as universally accepted. Animals and insects reproduce at staggering rates, I'm sure not because it all "feels good". Humans are animals, subject to the same laws of Nature.

If you doubt the existance of these things, that's your right. I'm certainly not going to make a believer of you from a message board. Life experience will do that.

Yes, the biological need to reproduce is felt as acutely as hunger and thirst. I bet most of the people on this board have felt it. Good old drive to have sex. Can be very acute and overwhelming, not? Well, that's how nature intended it.

Then there is that weaker urge to care for small things that cover several "rules of cuteness" as per Cuteoverload.com.

Nature seems to work through a series of short instructions that in the long run are effective in keeping a species. Sex drive- one greatly successful evolutionary gift. Gets your genes to survive, not?

Love of fuzzy things that scream "neoteny"? This may also help you preserve "your genes". But what are "your genes"? I would share about half of them with my brother. Also, my child would carry half my genes. My nieces and nephews would be genetically as connected to me as my grandchildren. Should I bribe my brother to impregnate his eventual wife several more times so I can get a break from messy childbirth yet have a chance at spreading my evil auntie genes? Maybe.

Now, imagine I am in a herd of early hominids and I have the gene for caring for all babies. This means more babies with similar genes will survive- my own, as well as nieces, nephews and grandchildren, since they will be closer to me and I will take care of them, being pressured by evolution. In fact, my genes make my body behave in such a way as to protect the same genes that inhabit other "evolutionary machines".

For more discussions in this direction: Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene.

The "maternal drive" is baloney. I've seen women not want to have children, then see all of their suburban Mommie friends do it, then all of a sudden its a big deal - a year or two and some IVF or China later they have one, and still don't like "kids" as a general group of humans.

I'm female, I don't have this drive, and I know others who don't - or we realize it's a holdover from swinging from trees and scampering across the savannah and about just as worthwhile.

Sociobiology? So junior in college, so yesterday's news.

Amy,

As a proud member of the male species, one of the reasons I adore reading your column is because you say it as it is and avoid all the sugar-coated PC pablum that we read most everywhere else.

What you may find surprising is that up here in Vancouver I constantly hear women complaining ad nauseum about all the faults the men in their lives have. It's not too difficult to imagine some girlfriends of this woman actually defend her. Nuts!

Thank you so much...only wish I still ran there...used to be in the Westender. Feel free to request my column there or in other papers...makes a difference! -Amy (big fan of the male species)

Morbideus:

If the cat has had its first heat they still like to spay as early as possible. After spaying the cat will be just a normal cat just without the hormones that drive her to reproduce. She may decide to adopt all your socks as kittens, but she won't be a nervous wreck. It's just like neutering male cats. No more sexual organs, no more hormones to hijack the brain.

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Elle,

Thanks for the info. :)

I learn new stuff everyday...

The maternal drive is not baloney.
I experienced it for ten yars, and lived
to tell the before-and-after tale.

Re: spaying female cats, I wanted to breed my cat, but had a series of increasingly fruitless discussions with the cat breeder. After about three heats, I had her spayed. She never regained the kitten-friendliness, exhibiting instead an annoying coy "adolescent female" behavior.

She's gone now, and I miss her. But my point is that there was a marked change at puberty, a change that was negative as far as having a compliant house pet, and made me realize anew how strongly my hormones affected me as a teenager, and probably still do in my 40's.

Get the [strike]child[/strike] kitten fixed before puberty.
You'll have a more affectionate and emotionally stable animal.

Renee

This really hit home. Sounds like your basic heartless woman. Any man should run from her, especially her current husband. Or she'll bear his kids, then steal them from him and take all his money. He'll be left with his pecker in his hand wondering wtf happend!

Marion.

Sorry, your period at the end of the sentence shoud have been outside the quotes.

This woman is a typical of the selfish women who whore around while their bodies are hard, then after their hearts are hard, but the bodies are soft and plump (in her case her brain too), they go find some nice guy to screw over. She is a selfish user, and I would say they are a dime a dozen, except that they can be far more expensive, they know the divorce laws front to back.

Pirate Jo,

If you don't believe in reproductive urge, then that is on you. You are a genetic dead end, and not typical. That's OK, but that you should disbelieve that others have such an urge, well, you are a bit out of touch with others.

Thank you Gloria Steinem for promoting this mentality. I wonder how many thousands of people, both women and men, have been damaged over the years by this philosophy? And, to the woman who did this thing: "Welcome to the hellish downside of narcissism. Did you enjoy dragging your husband over the cliff as well?"