It's The Belittle Things...
I'm 24 and my boyfriend of five months is 28. He was adamant about knowing the number of sexual partners I've had. I'm not comfortable sharing that, but he said he had to know what he was getting into to take the relationship to the next level. He's had 14; I've had four, but I told him two. It was an honest mistake -- two were hookups and I forgot them. Honesty is super important to him, but I'm stressed about coming clean. He doesn't even like that I have guy friends, so he was really upset about the two boyfriends, and wanted complete details. When I didn't want to tell all, he claimed I was hiding something. He's sometimes condescending, yet if I don't respond in a pleasant fashion when I'm upset, we'll have to have a long talk about it. Still, I'm afraid I'm misrepresenting him. He's a great man, always tells me how wonderful I am, and appreciates the little things I do like cooking dinner. I feel he deserves my honesty, but how significant is my actual number of partners?
--Distressed
For Rick and Ilsa, it was "We'll always have Paris." What will your parting words be, "We'll always have Guantanamo"?
And make no mistake: You should part -- pronto -- because the relationship you're in is pretty much a textbook case of abuse. Sure, the average guy gets rattled at the thought of his girlfriend naked with previous boyfriends -- or even the sight of her, fully clothed, talking to some guy friend who isn't a disfigured, 85-year-old gay troll. The appropriate response is playing it cool, not taking the girlfriend home and waterboarding her for hours.
You actually were honest with your boyfriend -- you told him you "didn't want to tell all." That should've been that. Being in a relationship doesn't mean signing away your right to privacy. Anything short of "My last three boyfriends are buried in the backyard" or "I have these weird red bumps all over my girlparts" is information you don't owe anybody. While guys will get curious, an emotionally healthy boyfriend doesn't demand to know who, how many, how often, and how well your being double-jointed worked out for you and the last dude.
As for what sheer numbers say, your sexual history could look like a line for free tickets to Coldplay; it's your ethics that predict whether you'll cheat. This is all about control and confession and forgiveness on his terms. It's classic abuser behavior: Isolate you -- first, from your guy friends; later, from anybody who might talk some sense into you. Cut you down, build you up a little ("What a lovely stew!") and cut you down some more. He's essentially smacking you around, then kissing your booboo. And no, he's not literally smacking you around now, but that's where emotional abuse often leads. What are you waiting for, a sign? Two black eyes? A couple broken bones? Or, maybe something in writing; a death certificate, perhaps?
Get out. You're acting like this guy's girlbot, doing and saying what you're told, because you're not ready to be in a relationship. Being ready takes having boundaries and enough of a self to tell a guy to accept 'em or walk. I know, this is the last thing you wanted to hear; in fact, you're probably distraught at "misrepresenting" him. Not to worry, I get that he likes your cooking. What I'm worried about is what happens the night you burn the mac 'n cheese. Lemme guess: You fell down two flights of stairs...in your ranch house.
Seems like a double standard...he's had 14 and isn't talking about his? Dude needs to get over himself and start being honest with others first. Distressed needs to find someone else.
Ryan at November 18, 2008 9:37 PM
I agree with Amy. Run do not walk, get away as soon as possible. I was in a relationship years ago that sounded pretty much the same. He will break you down and make you completely dependant on him. Then the beating begins, or he will find someone else and throw you away.
Ladyleo at November 19, 2008 2:02 AM
"Still, I'm afraid I'm misrepresenting him. He's a great man...I feel he deserves my honesty, but how significant is my actual number of partners?"
LW isn't representing him, but she doesn't seem to know that. How many people have we heard saying things just like LW did? "He/she's perfect, except..." And the actual number of partners isn't even the point. I can't imagine what the boyfriend would even want the information for, except as ammunition to use against her later. I agree; best to get out now before five tense months turns into five miserable years. Hopefully she'll have guts enough to cut her losses and dump him.
old rpm daddy at November 19, 2008 4:30 AM
Run far and run fast, little rabbit! Amy is spot on! As is old rpm daddy's response; read that over and over again until you get it - he hit the nail on the head with his ammunition comment. If you're walking on eggshells now, imagine what it will be like in another 5 months. Seriously. Also, go to the HeartlessBitchesInternational website (www.heartless-bitches.com) and check out the articles in the Manipulators file. You don't owe him any number at any time, unless and until he provides the same. And if he doesn't, there's your answer, honey. Go. Now.
Flynne at November 19, 2008 5:40 AM
I meant to say, "LW isn't MISrepresenting him..."
Goldurnit!
Spellcheck will catch misspellings. It won't catch stupidity.
old rpm daddy at November 19, 2008 6:39 AM
Wow, I'd already had four by the time I was done with my freshman year of college. She's a goody-two-shoes compared to me! Got a chuckle out of this one: "He's sometimes condescending, yet if I don't respond in a pleasant fashion when I'm upset, we'll have to have a long talk about it." Have to? HAVE TO??? Uh, no, those boots were made for walkin', baby. Amy, please tell us when she ditches this guy.
Pirate Jo at November 19, 2008 6:41 AM
This is the first time I've been a little afraid for a letter writer. Since she doesn't see the "relationship" for what it is, I have a hard time believing she will take the advice. She's probably thinking, "Oh, they don't really know him. It's not that bad."
LW, you are 24 -- old enough that you don't need to answer to anyone and young enough that you have a world of opportunities in front of you. Don't let this guy become your biggest regret. Even if it never escalates into physical violence, do you really want to spend your time worrying about what his reaction is going to be to any given thing?
MonicaP at November 19, 2008 6:41 AM
Great advice. I agree with it 100%. You need to get out know. The guy has major issues with any connection you may have to others AND has no self esteem. He needs to know exactly how he "measures up". I guess thats a sign of his own self worth.
On to another question..... How many is too many? I am in my mid 30's, never married. I have had this discussion with my last two girlfriends and I am always hesitant to tell. I have hinted though. The man I am today is different then who I was in college and my early 20's.
So, is there a number where you go..... ugh! ?
BG at November 19, 2008 7:06 AM
WHy is she with him?? He sounds like a controlling man at best, and potential abuser (has several of the flags they advertise anyway) at worst. She's 24. 4 is LOW! And uh, excuse me, but he's more than tripled her, so what's his problem? DH tried that crap. I would not tell. It's none of his damn business. I am with him because I want to be and that's all that's needed to be known. Nor do I want to hear numbers from my guy. It just doesn't matter, assuming you've been tested and are clean.
The fact that he appreciates your cleaning and cooking doesn't say much. Does he appreciate your mind as well? Apparently not, since if you don't respond correctly in his eyes, it requires a discussion. Run, girl, run. NO one buys as many flowers for his woman as the guy that knocked the crap out of her last night. Does not mean he's a great romantic guy!
My sexual history does resemble a line for free coldplay tickets. I've never cheated on my husband nor would I ever. I knew what was out there, loved him, and that's that. And that's what matters.
momof3 at November 19, 2008 7:07 AM
OK, I'm someone who can't take a hint unless it's applied with a 5 pound sledge-hammer, and even I can see where this is going to go horribly, horribly wrong.
1:
2:
3:
This man is a douchebag. If you don't dump him, he'll dump you. That's his MO. Make you feel like shit so you'll fuck him better. Then, when he's bored of you, it's on to the next piece of ass.
And you're left stranded wondering what you did wrong, condemned to a life of dating worse and worse douchebags until you get knocked up, and knocked around.
brian at November 19, 2008 7:09 AM
No, he's got boatloads of self-esteem. He's a player. This is how players work. Make her feel like shit, then make her feel like a princess.
It's disgusting, but it gets the panties to drop. I can't do it, can't bring myself to be a douchebag, but read The Game (Neil Strauss) and you'll see how the game works.
brian at November 19, 2008 7:12 AM
See also: Kay Hymowitz
brian at November 19, 2008 7:13 AM
My boyfriend and I were honest with each other about how many partners we've had, but it was largely curiosity. I wasn't going to beat him with a stick because he's had triple the number of partners I've had. And I certainly don't want details. The fact that this guy wants details regarding all the men she's fucked is creepy.
MonicaP at November 19, 2008 7:14 AM
Brian
I read The Game when it came out. I know all about NEGS, AFC and the Mystery Method. It is for fools and idiots.
I don't think that this guy is doing that. A guy like that doesn't want all those details. He doesn't invest that much effort in knowing the history of the girl. He doesn't want her to think he cares about a girl that much. He wants a few things from her and that is it.
This guy can't stand that HIS girl has been with anyone else let alone 4 guys. (In his mind, she is his now) It doesn't matter that she has made the choice to be with him for the time. He is scared that he won't compare with her past experiences and will leave him for something much better.
By the way, I think the guy is an idiot. She needs to make a change sooner rather than later.
BP at November 19, 2008 7:25 AM
He's had 14 and he's upset about hearing that you had 2?
What, does he want your hymen for his mantelpiece?
sofar at November 19, 2008 7:43 AM
What excellent advice, but I bet the LW doesn't take it, at least not immediately. But with any hope I'll bet the next time the dude pulls some control freak move, she will start to see it.
I look back on my dysfunctional marriage and how my ex tried to control me in similar fashion (the woman can be the control freak too, and made all that much worse by her drug abuse). Whether the LW is completely honest or not about her past is insignificant (I was completely honest, but it wasn't enough). The controller/abuser creates a sort of profile of their SO in their mind, and uses that view of reality to basically mindfuck their SO. I think it was Seinfeld that said a relationship can't be ended immediately, it's like knocking over a coke machine: you have to rock it back and forth a couple times then push it over. I just hope it doesn't fall on her when she decides to get out. And I hope she sees the responses to her letter as the rocking of that coke machine.
Sterling at November 19, 2008 7:51 AM
Of course he is a good guy. That's how it works.
My ex was just a good ole country boy who would help anyone. Everyone thought he was great. That wasn't who I lived with. Nobody would ever believe he was a controlling, wife beater.
Ladyleo at November 19, 2008 7:51 AM
He doesn't even like that I have guy friends, so he was really upset about the two boyfriends, and wanted complete details.
RED FLAG Alert! This guy is so insecure he doesn't even want her to have guy friends? UPSET about two previous boyfriends? Does the term "Short leash" come to mind? Run, run away, as fast as you can!
WayneB at November 19, 2008 7:58 AM
My first boyfriend waterboarded me about my previous 2 boyfriends (because he was a virgin when I got him). I was interrogated every time he dropped me off home in his car for about an hour, and every time I thought, maybe this time he'll get it and stop bugging me. This went on for months until I couldn't take it anymore and I dumped him.
He was sweet and hurt about it, not a wife beater, but still, the relentless questions drove me insane. I learned my lesson after that experience. The answer is 'why do you want to know?'. I never tell guys and if they bug me, I stop seeing them.
Chrissy at November 19, 2008 9:33 AM
This lw could be me, 6 months ago. I'm her age, and I got completely sucked in just like she is. I'm afraid it's too late for her. She's already feeling guilty for telling the truth about him, for discussing these huge piles of shit she's stepping right into, over and over.
My ex also made a huge fucking deal about honesty. It's hard to argue with. Everyone values the truth, right? I was actually prepared because I've had a bunch of friends do the numbers argument. They all gave in and told. I refused. I think you have a right to retain some of your personal info, except that which may endanger another's health. Me - tested, tested, tested because I'm a bit of a hypochondriac. I think the most important info is whether or not you've ever cheated. And I eventually did tell, as I decided that I wanted to embrace my past and as part of a project in my sexuality class. Of course, his number dwarfed mine.
But anyway, here's what my honesty got me, from a few months in: constant questions - "where are you, who are you with, what have you been doing, what are you doing next and with whom?" Constant implications that I'd been dishonest - "Sure, you were studying. Ok." (sarcasm included). Then, when I called him on it - "Never said you were lying. I didn't imply anything. Why? Got a guilty conscience?" Constant check-ins - "Call me when you get up. Call me when you leave the house. Call me when you get out of class. Call me when you do anything." - and when I protested the check-ins, he'd say they weren't check-ins, he "just liked to hear my voice" and missed me, and "didn't I love him?" Any time I was with a male friend, or even multiple male friends, it was a date. "How was your date? Did he at least buy you dessert?" I argued this so many times that I actually wanted to lie just to avoid the argument that would follow. I don't lie. I'm a take it or leave it type of girl. I hate dishonesty. The constant interrogation and guilt-trips actually tempted me to lie, repeatedly. That's when I realized it needed to end. What else? Comments on my dress, comments on why I was wearing makeup if I wasn't trying to attract anyone, and guilt for whenever I went out. Why did I put up with all of this, even knowing, as it happened, that it was completely dysfunctional and damaging to me? Because I loved him. Could there be a more typical, dumbass response? It makes me want to slap myself in the face.
I think that it's low self-esteem combined with an absolute lust for power. If you can control someone through manipulation without actually telling them what to do, you win every time. It was masterful. And the key is to never, ever, ever admit to any of it. Make the other person think they're crazy when they call you on your bullshit.
Hopefully, she will get so fed up she'll leave, like I did. Hopefully, he won't actually hit her. But if she waits too long, if she's conditioned long enough, she might not even remember how to stand up for herself.
Christina at November 19, 2008 10:33 AM
Doesn't matter if it is talking down to her, interogation over past lovers, or physical altercations it is all abuse.
He doesn't like guy friends, later on it will be girlfriends and family members. His point is to take control and remove anybody that you are close to. He wants to be your everything, and it is all about him.
Your young, keep looking, there is no hurry. Take your time and find the right person that will love you because you are you. The things that you have done and lovers that you have had give you experience and help mold you into who you are. This is just another learning experience. In the future don't tell a new lover how many people you have been with. Just say that as far as you are concerned, they are all in the past, and that you have chosen them.
Ladyleo at November 19, 2008 10:46 AM
I hear you, Christina. I had one of these too, once. A real pro at getting an armlock on my self-esteem and holding it hostage toward my doing whatever he wanted.
I stayed with him six months, which was far too long. Fortunately, there were some things that I wouldn't give in to him on, preferring to just take the emotional knocks he handed out. (I was being "hateful", I was "hurting him", etc....) I was a wreck by the time I got out, but I hadn't completely sacrificed my self-respect, which gave me something to rebuild with. And afterward I had a much better understanding of how abusive relationships work, and much more resistance to manipulative tactics, so the experience wasn't a total loss.
I too would tell the letter writer to get out, but she will only be able to do that in her own time, in her own way. Hopefully this column and responses will at least help her to recognize that she *is* in an abusive situation, though. If she knows that, then even if she is completely hooked for now, she will eventually reach the point where going and staying look equally painful, and then she will be free.
(Of course, if she's *really* lucky, then she may be jolted back to sanity by the "Wake up, Fool!" that she's receiving here, and walk today. That would be the best scenario, but unfortunately it's seldom that simple inside the abusee's head once the pattern gets going.)
The Other Lily at November 19, 2008 10:54 AM
The only good thing about dating a guy like this is the immense feeling of satisfaction you get from being able to tell him to go eff himself. It's not often you get to say that to someone who so desperately deserves it.
Pirate Jo at November 19, 2008 11:19 AM
I didn't feel any satisfaction. I still don't.
Christina at November 19, 2008 11:28 AM
I'm with the consensus here. Don't walk, run. It's like a wry joke I heard a few months ago: "What are the two best tools for dealing with an acyetelene leak? A good pair of running shoes, and a hundred-yard head start!"
Cousin Dave at November 19, 2008 11:38 AM
> I didn't feel any satisfaction.
> I still don't.
Are you sure you didn't date my ex? :-P
Sounds like you had the same problem I did, and that the LW apparently does: you loved him. That's what gives the trap teeth.
It's been years since mine, and I can tell you that it does get better. It takes time, but it does get better. At least, it does if you learn from the experience (as you seem to have done) and don't get sucked into another similar situation.
The Other Lily at November 19, 2008 11:46 AM
The important thing for distressed to do IMHO is to look at the big picture.
Everyone feels a bit different about history... but that isn't the issue
Everyone can feel a bit insecure about the other sharks that may be around...
but that isn't the issue
As people have pointed out, the issue is control, and maybe distressed even knows that.
The bigger picture is this: when you are inside that world of love, even the voices of reason seem muted and distorted. It's hard to believe what people say, because they don't know the balance of traits of your significant other.
We all have prolly thought that somewhere along the way.
So here is the thing, "Distressed", even if the situation is slightly different, MANY, MANY of us have experienced living with a control freak, and sadly, the traits are always frighteningly similar. Sometimes you miss them because you are inside the bubble. It isn't the numbers, it isn't the condescension, it is insecurity boardering on the insane, coupled with the fine abilty to know the art of asking for an unreasonable thing in a reasonable way. This is plain manipulation.
The people who have said he will use and abuse and leave are not joking... Although that is better than the other kind who, once they get a hold of you will suck you dry of your life.
Your worth is not derived from this man. Don't look back in 10 years, and think that you have wasted those years on someone who never deserved them. Listen to the cautionary tales. I didn't, others didn't, and learned to our sorrow. Hopefully if enough people tell you in enough different ways, you will get back your courage to be yourself, and not what he wants. Walk away, and learn the signs. For someone this insecure, nothing you do will ever be enough. something will always be wrong.
SwissArmyD at November 19, 2008 12:11 PM
Yeah, that love thing. Love is such an asshole. I never got it when I would ask my friends why they put up with such and such and they would say, "But I love him!" So?
I think there's this fairytale that love can conquer anything, when really, it can't. Breaking up with someone you love is the most ridiculous thing to have to do. Crazy boyfriend, check. Double stuf Oreos - you're next.
Christina at November 19, 2008 12:11 PM
I should also point out that the irrational jealousy is pretty much the only way the insecurity shows. A woman's type of insecurity, self-focused and somewhat obvious, isn't the same kind. My ex seemed like an incredibly confidant man. That's what was so appealing. It wasn't until later that I figured out that this kind of insecurity is worse.
This one hit close to home. I'm blathering away. :)
Christina at November 19, 2008 12:16 PM
The final event that happened with my story, was that the ex, who I still saw the odd time in my social circle, asked me 'So when are we going to get back together?' It was so pathetic that he didn't get how stupid he had been. By that time, I had gotten my inner strength back and I said 'never'. I might have also said 'I hope you get a virgin next time', but maybe not-can't remember.
You do learn from experience, and after that, the red flags went up immediately when a guy started trying to undermine my self esteem. It appears to be a very common technique, from all the postings.
Chrissy at November 19, 2008 12:18 PM
" He doesn't even like that I have guy friends, so he was really upset about the two boyfriends, and wanted complete details. " This sentence sums it all up quite nicely and is kind of scary. If he has issues with you having 2 boyfriends why would he want details. If the idea about 2 boyfriends upsets him wouldn't this be pouring salt into a wound. The fact that he really must know means there are motives beyond truth. Put simply she shouldn't lie about it and he shouldn't be asking. No good ever came from that type of discussion.
As far as her past being relevant. Well if it's something that can cause issues then yes. Suddenly finding out that she had done the nasty with your brother at the first family Turkey Dinner might be a bit of an issue, your sister would make it even more awkward. Anything the partner is going to run into should probably be covered. If they can't deal then the relationship should end.
"or even the sight of her, fully clothed, talking to some guy friend who isn't a disfigured, 85-year-old gay troll." Guy friend really shouldn't bother you. Now if the used to fuck like bunnies it's a different story.
vlad at November 19, 2008 12:50 PM
Going by the conventional wisdom on #s of sex partners, by her statement he's only had 7 and she's had 8.
"it's your ethics that predict whether you'll cheat."
Indeed, its just that historically numbers have been a good indicator of one's ethics/morals, especially when one is looking for a mate (certainly it has/is from the male perspective). These days for various reasons, not so much. Check out Hymowitz's latest article on that issue.
I'm guessing this whole deal has more to do with his feeling threatened by her "guy friends". She either needs to reassure him they aren't a threat if thats possible or he could be unmovable on that, thus she should move on. Only 5 months in, either she's hanging out with her boy toys too much, he's an over controlling nutter or a "player".
Sio at November 19, 2008 12:55 PM
Let me get this straight. He has had 14 previous partners, and that's OK, but the 4 you have had are not only not OK, but he is going to grill you about them, and get angry with you for what you did before he was even in the picture? And you call this abuser a "great man?" Lady, RUN away from this person. Tell him nothing more. Ask him nothing more. Get far away from him. While you still can.
jonathan at November 19, 2008 12:58 PM
SwissArmyD has a good point. From the inside of the relationship, it isn't always easy to tell what's really going on. For that reason, I hope LW hasn't taken all these comments as condescending and judgemental. I hope she sees that these comments are based on lessons learned the hard way (been there myself, though others have had a much harder time than I did). I'd like it if we could hear from LW again, to see if things worked out okay.
old rpm daddy at November 19, 2008 1:01 PM
Old rpm daddy is right. LW, if you come to this site and read these, please let us know how you are. Speaking for myself, I am a little worried about you. When I talk about kicking this kind of guy to the curb, I'm not trying to get on my high horse about it. It's because I've BEEN THERE. You're not the only person who's ever been in love, finding the view from the inside looking out to be a lot murkier than from the outside looking in.
Christina, I am a little surprised to hear you say you feel no satisfaction in getting yourself out of your similar situation. I guess in a way I can see that when you look back, you see yourself in a humiliating position, and aren't proud of it. But you got OUT! You LEARNED from it! And while you may get your heart broken again, for different reasons, you know it won't stay broke. You've really faced up to what your perspective was at the time, what misled you, and what you can do to avoid it again. I think that's something to be proud of. Most people would rather pretend it didn't happen, which keeps them from thinking and learning from those experiences, which in turn makes it likely to happen again or turn them bitter.
Pirate Jo at November 19, 2008 3:47 PM
This all sounds frighteningly similar to the troubles of a friend I gave advice to.
She was going out with one of the other docs for about a year. This guy was your typical self-assured, immensely confidant, narcissistic player—actually a fun person to hang out and have drinks with (most narcissists are the life of the party). But unfortunately, I was friends with him before I was friends with her. Thing is he liked to tell me about the other girls he slept with during this relationship (including a visit to a ‘professional’). Now you have to know this girl: self-assured, smart and brooks no crap. Except when she was with him. He treated her to the blue-plate special of verbal abuse, control, paranoia about what she was doing and telling her she was ‘crazy’ whenever questioning him. But hey, she loved him.
Finally, when he moved and she stayed with her job, she asked me point-blank was the truth was. I figured she was teetering like the Coke machine and if I just told her the truth that she was not crazy and this guy was an ass she would make the right choice (disclosure: I am not in any way interested being with her). So I told her all about him, his ‘conquests’, his infidelities, hell, even the pictures he showed me. She suspected as much, thanked me for my honesty but did lots of crying nonetheless, because she loved him.
As time goes on, she tells me she is still calling him and ‘working things out’, even going on a trip overseas to spend time with him and his family! The last straw was when she told me after getting back how she was ‘still thinking about it, but at least I will know what I am getting into’ continuing the relationship with him (a.k.a. I am not leaving him)—because she loves him.
So I am kind of a cynic and think this girl will not take any advice contrary to what she wants to hear, only looking for that which is self-reinforcing. It is a change she will need to make for herself and, although we hope for the contrary, no amount of advice will change that because she is only asking to be told what she wants to hear.
Doc Jensen at November 19, 2008 3:56 PM
Doc Jensen, holy shit! I think that girl must a) desperately want to be with somebody, and b) not think it could be any better. How wrong, and how sad.
Pirate Jo at November 19, 2008 5:26 PM
Pirate Jo - I'm just now getting clear of it. We broke up two weeks ago and just stopped talking a few days ago. As a matter of fact, he called today and I'm still hooked enough to care. The longer you're off the smack, the better it feels, but the first while is hell.
Same goes for Doc Jensen's friend, probably. There's a reason smart, together, attractive women get into this situation. There is something about the man that is incredibly appealing. He's the life of the party at first, makes you feel like the center of the universe and is full of compliments. If they were all bad, we wouldn't get hooked in the first place. Mine also happened to be the sexiest thing I've ever seen in my life, and given my level of experience with men, that's saying something. It's very difficult to let go of something that can make you feel amazing but sometimes makes you feel like shit. Again, addiction.
Christina at November 19, 2008 7:13 PM
Good advice from Amy... Hopefully the LW doesn't be as stupid as I was since I stayed with the same type of guy for just under 3y...but like a couple of others have said, in public everyone sees a completely different person that people don't really believe that he's as bad as you say that he is. And then you think you're crazy b/c you're self-esteem has been eaten away.
Thankfully, the guy that I dated wasn't as bad as what Doc Jensen described...and I wasn't as blinded as that girl either. Once I realized how much my ex had lied to me, I got over him quickly. Yay for some cold, hard truth!!
verax audeo at November 19, 2008 7:48 PM
oh...Christina, I feel for you. And totally understand what you're saying about being an addiction...
verax audeo at November 19, 2008 7:54 PM
I didn't get three sentences into that letter before I was thinking, "So, dump him already!" Honesty! She needs an advice columnist to tell her this? Was toilet training a remedial studies course for her, too? What an idiot!
Patrick at November 20, 2008 4:46 AM
Doc Jensen, holy shit! I think that girl must a) desperately want to be with somebody, and b) not think it could be any better. How wrong, and how sad.
Alas, no, I doubt it's either a or b. More likely, it's that this guy fulfills some deep-seated need of hers. My father has a bad habit of marrying emotionally abusive, manipulative, controlling women, who are not unlike the man described by the LW. He doesn't do this because of desperation or a feeling he can't do any better. He does it because that's secretly what he's looking for. They push his buttons. It's pretty awful to watch.
Quizzical at November 20, 2008 5:13 AM
"Was toilet training a remedial studies course for her, too? What an idiot!"
Patrick, let's take it easy on the harshness, dude, okay? One of the running themes on this thread is how hard it is to see clearly from the inside of a relationship what's readily apparent from the outside. It gets hard to think clearly. It can happen to anybody, and probably has to most of us. Maybe you're using a kind of tough love approach on the LW, but I doubt she's an idiot.
old rpm daddy at November 20, 2008 6:36 AM
I have watched a similar story to Doc Jensen's more than once. In one case I'd say it went as far as devolving into Stockholm syndrome. However he (my friend) always been drawn to crazy women. Each more bat shit than the next. I think on some level he's drawn to the crazy one. He likes the excitement and suspense and being treated like shit. After a certain point there's very little you can do but point and hope.
vlad at November 20, 2008 6:41 AM
old rpm writes: Patrick, let's take it easy on the harshness, dude, okay?
You obviously don't know me, so let this suffice: "No."
Patrick at November 20, 2008 8:43 AM
I'm with everyone else, run for your life.
But there is also a gem for any guy that wants to know 'the number'. And that is only boyfriends count. Hookups are never counted.
So don't bother asking, whatever the number is, its what made here what she is.
leverstadd at November 20, 2008 12:40 PM
Before you ask think about it this way. Is there any answer that you would actually like to hear, would you believe her if she gave you that answer.
Also if you suspect that she's been ridden like a rental car would you believe her if she said she wasn't? If your sure of it what would her admitting to the fact change?
It's the hook ups that would be the most telling though. If she's having multiple (>2) hookups at the same time and asking the number question looks like a good idea walk away. The number is high and it will bother you.
vlad at November 20, 2008 1:53 PM
Christina, holy crap! When you wrote your first couple of posts on this thread, I didn't realize you were talking about recent events. Do hang in there, and the next time, remind yourself: Have higher standards. You're worth it.
Doc J, I've had a bit of first-hand experience with women who are serial abusees. You know the type: their druggie felon boyfriend beats them up, and he keeps doing it until something breaks up the relationship. She chases him all over creation trying to put it back together. If that's impossible (say, because his ass is in prison), she goes out and finds another guy just like him.
A waitress at a restraunt I used to work at was like that. A couple of times, she came in so black and blue we had to send her home -- we couldn't send her out in front of customers looking like that. She seemed like a nice gal, and I always wondered what she saw in him. One day, a girl friend of hers clued me in: it was a mutual contest, and she was playing her own version of the game. He tried to control her through violence. She tried to control him by working a lot, making a lot of money, and then spending it all on drugs that she took home to him. She got him high and encouraged him to keep toking and shooting up. That was her way of controlling him. Leaving him would have meant that she would have had no one to try to dominate, and a normal guy wouldn't have put up with that for very long. So it was worth it to her to stay and get beat up; plus, she got all the sympathy. Everyone saw what he did to her; no one saw what she did to him.
Cousin Dave at November 21, 2008 5:38 PM
Why is it that if women ask guys the "how many" question, we can tell you no questions asked, yet if you ask a woman you get all kinds of grief. Suddenly people are coming out of the woodwork to say the guy is a nutcase. So my question is why are women so guarded about it and men don't really care? You know, at first glance it WOULD seem like if someone did not want to come clean they were hiding something. I agree, the guy sounds like a controller and she should break up with him. But, I tell you from experience that if someone "forgets" (noone forgets...thats BS) or lies about it, why would any normal person NOT be suspicious??
Oh i know, because its none of my business right?? Boo Hoo, I slept with 30 guys my freshman year and acted like a complete tramp...but when its time to get serious with someone, I don't WANT him to know I was a tramp, because I'm afraid he will TREAT me like a tramp. Come on folks, have some accountability! For both guys and gals, if you whore around be honest about it. If you can't be honest about it then you should not complain about someone wanting to know how many. If I would have questioned my last girlfriend I would have found out she slept with 54 guys before me...and I was going to MARRY her!!! YUCK!! Thank God one of her girlfriends told me everything...
mike at November 23, 2008 9:46 AM
Gee, lucky escape . . . for Mike's ex girlfriend.
Gail at November 24, 2008 7:03 AM
LOL!! My thoughts exactly, Gail! o.O
Flynne at November 24, 2008 7:46 AM
There's no guarantee that if a guy marries a nice virgin that she won't sleep around-she has motivation to sleep around because she'll be curious if she missed out on something. That's happened to 2 guys that I know, where the wifey reads all kinds of stuff in Cosmo, and listens to her friend talking, and then feels ripped off.
The only behaviour that matters is that which is within a committed relationship. If she is ethical, she will honor the agreement she has with her boyfriend to be sexually monogamous. If a woman is not in a monogamous relationship, she can do whatever she wants, and sleep with as many guys as makes her happy.
Chrissy at November 24, 2008 8:39 AM
Cousin Dave Oh Please
Women are guarded because we dont get the same response to having a sexual history. This is a prime example. He wants to grill her over 2 sexual encounters but he has had 14(is he a slut? At the time of the writing she is debating whether or not to even tell the rest. Id just tell hime to go to hell.
Lisa at November 24, 2008 11:24 AM
Gee Gail/Flynne, typical response
mike at November 24, 2008 2:06 PM
Why is it that if women ask guys the "how many" question, we can tell you no questions asked, yet if you ask a woman you get all kinds of grief.
Women shouldn't be asking men the question either.
Suddenly people are coming out of the woodwork to say the guy is a nutcase.
Yes, because in addition to interrogating her about her sexual history, he has an issue with her having guy friends and has "long talks" with her when she dares to sound upset. Plus, he's upset that she slept with two guys (supposedly), despite the fact that he admits to sleeping with *14 women.* This isn't some immature 19-year-old who's emotionally clumsy but well-meaning.
So my question is why are women so guarded about it and men don't really care?
Men don't really care? That's not the experience of this letter writer - her boyfriend, very much not a virgin, is upset that she's had *any* experience. And given your comment about your ex, it would seem that *you* care, very much, despite the fact that (I assume) you're not inexperienced yourself. Plenty of guys out there do care. If we're talking about male virgins for whom chastity until marriage is important for both sexes, that's one thing, but I think what the posters here are generally talking about is the issue of men who themselves are experienced and don't believe in waiting until marriage, but are unhappy that their girlfriends fall into exactly the same category. It's the disparity here that's the real issue, not the number. If chastity/celibacy is important to you, then behave accordingly in your own life. If it's not, deal with the fact that your partner has seen other people naked.
There are plenty of controlling women out there. For whatever reason, the whole, "How many people have you slept with? Now that I know, I'll hold it over your head FOREVER!!!" brand of controllingness seems to be more a male thing. There are brands that are primarily female; Amy's run no few letters discussing varieties of those.
For both guys and gals, if you whore around be honest about it.
Yes, if you've ever slept with someone for money, I think you might want to reveal that to your partner. Or if you've been bad about staying faithful to past partners. Somehow, though, I have a feeling that your definition of "whore" is a woman who's slept with more people than you have...
marion at November 24, 2008 8:32 PM
I doubt that most people tell the truth anyway when asked the "how many" question.It can bring out feelings of inadequacy and jealousy that may ultimately doom the relationship. It should be a personal decision whether or not to tell your partner how many,not something that is demanded. The LW needs to realise that her bf has such absurd double standards that things can only get worse.
WKI at November 24, 2008 9:36 PM
Let me rephrase for your benefit "marlon"...what I meant was "so my question is why are women so guarded, while if you ask men the same question they have no problem answering?"
But seriously Marlon, your answer, like Gail and Flynne's, is typical.
Would you buy a used car with no history? If it had 150,000 miles on it? What about the history? Would you not want to know if it had been in a flood, or been rolled, or had major body work? Of course you would want to know. That is why there is Carfax. So why would you not want to know the history of the person you are dating, or even marrying?
True, some guys probably take that a little too seriously and get all weird about it. But except for the extreme ones, those of us who want to know are going to make a CHOICE. Yes, our CHOICE of whether or not we want to date you based upon several things including your past. Why? Because it is my CHOICE to do that. It does not matter what you think or anyone else thinks because it is my choice. And if you don't want to tell the truth then you obviously have something to hide or can't be honest with yourself.
Wouldn't you want to know if I had been in prison? Wouldn't you want to know if I had been married before (or was still married)? Would you not want to know if my credit was in ruins? People don't have to tell other people anything, but do gain trust we tell the important things to a potential partner. So I guess your sexual history is just not that important to share with someone you say you love? Talk about a lack of accountability.
My definition of a whore, Marlon, is someone who sleeps with people with absolutely no regard to accountability, responsibility, or morality.
And, you hit the nail on the head. Anybody who has been through 60 people by the time they are 25, for example, surely has problems staying faithful to anyone.
mike at November 24, 2008 9:38 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/11/its-the-belittl.html#comment-1607428">comment from mikeMy definition of a whore, Marlon, is someone who sleeps with people with absolutely no regard to accountability, responsibility, or morality.
First of all, her name's Marion. Second, when you say "morality, accountability, and responsibility," do you mean connected with the Imaginary Friend-based notions? What if somebody (me, for example) has tons of sex in her 20s because she's not ready for a relationship? Is this immoral in some way? Birth control was used, and I am not dead or diseased. Nor did I get hit by a car while crossing the street. Life is risk, mikey. You can decide you won't sleep with a woman who's had loads of sex partners, but don't assume a "chaste" girl is ethical or the hussy is not. That would be dumb, especially considering all the letters I get from nice Christian girls, racked with guilt...including the one who's had two children who aren't the children of her husband. Whoopsy! But, she was a virgin until after marriage, dontcha know!
Amy Alkon at November 25, 2008 1:17 AM
I hope the nice Christian girl's husband finds out and gets a DNA test...(of course he would still be on the hook for child support)
mike at November 25, 2008 4:31 AM
"But, she was a virgin until after marriage, dontcha know! " Out of morbid curiosity were the actually virgins or Catholic (this works for every deeply religious group) virgins. By which I mean that it's been shoved in every other orifice repeatedly just not that one.
"Would you buy a used car with no history?" No but there is certain history that's basically irrelevant and shit that's relevant and not available. You know how many miles and owners but not their driving style. So you could have 10 old ladies pass on a corvette that they use to got to the grocery store in a ritzy area so it got higher millage. As opposed to one teeny booper who floored the car at every stop light and finally got rid of it after the 100th aggressive driving ticket. Also do you want a moderately used but warrantied Benz SLR 500 or a brand new never used Chevy Caviler?
"It does not matter what you think or anyone else thinks because it is my choice." Yes that's correct. If you've been a gezabell and now want to be a preachers wife your probably screwed. If he wants to know and you don't want to tell him the whole thing is unlikely to work out if he's set on perusing it. Your past can come back to haunt you but only if you let it.
"Thank God one of her girlfriends told me everything..." And this didn't make you the least bit suspect? HER girlfriend told you this and you never wondered why her friend would back stab her like that?
vlad at November 25, 2008 6:56 AM
I have a curiosity question. Is a women who was monogamous with one guy but he screwed around and caught something which she now has say herpes more desirable than someone who had a lot of sex with different partner but is medically clean.
The one with herpes has shown more "accountability, responsibility, or morality."
vlad at November 25, 2008 7:06 AM
"My definition of a whore, Marlon, is someone who sleeps with people with absolutely no regard to accountability, responsibility, or morality."
Accountable for orgasm...check. Responsible for bringing the condoms....check. Morality for myself and my sex partner to be honest (and realistic) enough to be able to say when sex is just sex and not lie or pretend sex is love (usually done because of an irrational sense of guilt...aka religion)....check.
Lil' Mike, your real problem is that you have a small dick. The reason you rant and whine about a girl's number is because you know the more sophisticated she is sexually, the less satisfied you can make her.
"(noone forgets...thats BS)" Uhm...yeah they do. Or like me, you never cared to keep a count. But even if you do, you quit tallying by thirty. It's unnecessary and stupid.
kg at November 25, 2008 9:10 AM
If you're going to throw terms around, you should define them: Please define Accountability, Responsibility & Morality.
I define accountability as respect for myself & my partner's health & safety. I'm responsible for not getting pregnant, so I use condoms, and if they fail, I get the abortion. Morality is not sleeping with married/attached men, and not being unfaithful if I'm attached.
Your turn.
Chrissy at November 25, 2008 9:27 AM
Thank you, marion. I wanted to address this bit of nonsense, too:
"But, I tell you from experience that if someone "forgets" (noone forgets...thats BS)"
I'm here to tell you - I don't know my "number." Seriously, I lost track of it some time in my late 20's and never tried to put a list back together. Most of my fooling around took place back in college, which was 20 years ago and nobody else's goddam business. I've been happily faithful to my boyfriend of the last year and a half, and I don't know how many partners he's had, or whether he knows how many there were, either. I couldn't care less.
Pirate Jo at November 25, 2008 9:35 AM
"The reason you rant and whine about a girl's number is because you know the more sophisticated she is sexually, the less satisfied you can make her." Actually would have agreed with Mike at one point. No it has nothing to do with a small dick. It's (in my case) being pissed at feeling used. I remember quite clearly the first two years of college all the jocks and cool tools etc got all the tail. The girls were all into the philosophy majors and the like. Then out of the fucking blue (sarcasm) they all start hunting those of us with lucrative future careers, Engineering and Business were the preferred targets. Between junior and senior year I got all of the top class tail thrown at me. A buddy of mine who had the same thing, and captain cool was left holding his own salami. The resentment kept me from enjoying any of it which I still regret.
As I got older the resentment has faded but some of the distrust still lingers. Hence no house wife EVER.
vlad at November 25, 2008 10:03 AM
It's sort of telling that "mike" compares sexual history to wear 'n tear on a car, bad credit, or a prison history. He must be really young. Otherwise he would see an "experienced" woman as one who has already gotten rid of her baggage and will be laid-back and low-maintenance.
Pirate Jo at November 25, 2008 10:23 AM
"Otherwise he would see an "experienced" woman as one who has already gotten rid of her baggage and will be laid-back and low-maintenance." Oh no. You would like to think this but no. Ones level of experience is no more an indicator of maturity than age.
I know plenty of level headed mature mid 20 and I know plenty of bat shit crazy 40+. The never married late 30's are from my experince the worst, though not all. The clock is ticking like a speed freaks ECG monitor.
Women can not be compared to cars or bad credit. The prison history can be analogous as in your jealous ex is an ex-con and the new guy better be ready for combat.
Women (men to depending on your tastes) are like wine, some getter better with age and some turn to vinegar. Now you have to ask yourself are you looking for fine wine or something to put on your french fries.
vlad at November 25, 2008 10:51 AM
"The never married late 30's are from my experince the worst, though not all. The clock is ticking like a speed freaks ECG monitor."
Bite your tongue, vlad, you poopiehead! (It's not the age, by the way, it's the biological clock. I'm so glad mine was born without batteries.) I just don't like the idea that a woman's past is viewed as a string of failures. I guess you are right that sometimes people don't learn from past mistakes. And boy I've dated a few doozies, but I always learned from them.
I view the guys I've gone out with in the past as generally a fun and colorful part of my history. Most of them were pretty decent guys, and even the ones who weren't, at least got me better at spotting jerks.
I guess what really irritates me about the male quest for "virginal purity" is that it sounds like they want an ignorant woman who doesn't know any better, like those creepy Mormon dudes with the 13-year-old wives. On the other hand, if your girl thought you were the best out of fifty-four men, you should be proud!
Pirate Jo at November 25, 2008 11:07 AM
"I guess what really irritates me about the male quest for "virginal purity"" I look at it this way someone has to tap the toe blower we call virgins. That's shit better left to other in my opinion, dated one virgin and it got fucking ugly really fast and no I didn't. The few virgin hunter I know scare me. Mainly in that they may some day reproduce and pass on the stupid.
"if your girl thought you were the best out of fifty-four men, you should be proud!" That depends on why your better then those 54. If it's cause we are a better providers then yeah no shit we are going to be pissed. The when your done having fun and settle down guy will usually resent the I got all the tail in college and oh ya would you like fries with that guy. They did him for him it's highly likely that they are doing me for money.
That would be why if single I'd be chasing early 40s. The clock has finally slowed and they tend to have had their own careers or are easy to spot otherwise.
vlad at November 25, 2008 11:21 AM
your comments really make some sense Vlad. Meanwhile, Pirate Jo and KG, you belong over on Feministing, where you can cuss and bitch and moan and talk about how horrible men are. Typical, most feminists resort to calling names (small dick) rather than try to engage in a logical argument. Or, they spend endless hours thinking of illogical ways to tear holes in someone's argument, or they go way overboard on critiquing punctuation. How very typical.
I wonder if Vlad has hit the right point: you gals spend your entire 20's and early 30's sleeping with everything in sight, Theeeeeen you realize you need to marry up, so you find a "normal" guy to play house with. In the end, it would seem by the time a female reaches 35 or so, it is all about money.
mike at November 25, 2008 5:04 PM
Women can play this card as well. I had been keeping an eye on it since about age 19, when past sexual experiences seemed to actually "matter" in relationships at this age for some unknown reason. I watched many of friends go through the 20 Questions grindstone with their girlfriends, while I would tell my girlfriends up front "look, this is how it is - you have your life and I have mine. What matters is only the present".
Oddly enough, it was some of my girlfriend's female friends who would say "oh, he's got something to hide", or "he's looking elsewhere", or "he's not being honest with you".
And when, at this juncture, they would begin to repeat their Spanish Inquisition with me again ... I developed a label for these women: I called them "ex-girlfriends".
Another brilliant piece of advice, Amy. I share your stories with everyone I know!
Ian
Ian at November 26, 2008 7:21 AM
Mike, you are such a prick. And you belong on AmericanWomenSuck, where you can bitch and moan about uppity American women and look for a submissive mail order bride. If you want an inexperienced woman, fine - you have your taste, and the rest of the men in the world have theirs. It's your stupid double-standard I object to, but hey it's not my problem - whoever dates you is the one stuck with it.
If women "spend their 20s and 30s sleeping with everything in sight," how does that make them any different than men? Maybe *most people* in their 20s and 30s (with a brain, and who unlike you can actually GET laid), whether they are male or female, don't want to settle down that young and just want to have fun for a while. And maybe these same people, again regardless of gender, change their tune and get interested in settling down and having a family later on. This seems to be true of the vast majority of people I know.
And for chrissake, quit bitching about women being after money. You'd just like to think you have ANYTHING a woman would be interested in. Most women in their 20s make more money than their male counterparts. If they want some financial support from their husbands when the babies come along, so what? If you are going to father children you *should* make decent money. Otherwise find a woman who doesn't want kids.
Pirate Jo at November 26, 2008 7:57 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/11/its-the-belittl.html#comment-1607736">comment from Pirate JoI spent my 20s sleeping with everything in sight because I wasn't ready for a relationship and didn't have the silly values that sex is wrong shoved on people by religion (belief that there's an Imaginary Friend in the sky who gives a shit about whether you stole Jimmy's lunch money and all the crap that ensues from that silly, irrational belief).
Having some fun in my 20s doesn't mean I lack ethics; in fact, I have a strong ethical belief system and don't lie (unless you're at a party wearing a really ugly dress and you ask me while at the party if it's ugly) or do ugly things that many people do as a matter of course.
Amy Alkon at November 26, 2008 8:17 AM
Wow Pirate Jo! You have absolutely done everything in your power to prove my point about being unable to calmly discuss an issue without getting rabidly emotional and spewing vile feminist-laced rhetoric. I never used the word "uppity". The personal attacks really are empowering now aren't they? I'm not going to stoop to your level and spout obsceneties to make a point...you already made it for me.
As far as the topic we were discussing, perhaps I have been a little intolerant. I don't think it is right there is a double standard, where guys get laid and are cheered, while women are called sluts. I'm just saying that in the end, people have to realize that just because you hate a double standard does not mean that it is not reality. The reality is just like most men have heard over and over: have fun with the easy girls, sow the oats, and then get married to a nice girl. Of course, now those lines are so blurred there is no such thing.
I really don't think mail-order brides are the solution, but obviously pirate jo, you seem to think this is an option??? I don't get it.
I would not know the first thing about Americanwomensuck, but I will check it out...as you seem to be very familiar with it.
mike at November 26, 2008 9:39 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/11/its-the-belittl.html#comment-1607772">comment from mikeI don't think it is right there is a double standard, where guys get laid and are cheered, while women are called sluts.
Talk to our genes. A guy who cared that I had a long line of sex partners in my 20s would miss out on me as a girlfriend now. Luckily, Gregg doesn't care about who I had sex with way back when, nor does he seem to anguish over what I had for lunch the other day, and whether I'll end up liking it better than the dinner he'll probably bring over tonight. (I don't cook; I heat, so Gregg usually comes over with the grub.)
Amy Alkon at November 26, 2008 10:27 AM
>>>I don't cook; I heat
You should try the raw food path, Amy. Nothing gets cooked OR heated. Well, nothing gets heated past 118 degrees.
har har har
And Santa Monica is now the self-proclaimed raw food capital of the world, it seems. You were destined!!!
;-)
Ian at November 27, 2008 7:55 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/11/its-the-belittl.html#comment-1607978">comment from IanIan. One word: Eeeeuw.
Eating raw food is very hard on my stomach.
I like cooked food, meat especially, which contains every vitamin but vitamin C, per my friend Gary Taubes who wrote a great book debunking all the silliness (and serious thinking that's actually crapthink).
Here's a link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400040787?ie=UTF8&tag=advicegoddess-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1400040787
If you ate only meat, like the Inuit used to, you'd be healthy.
Amy Alkon at November 27, 2008 8:16 AM
"Most women in their 20s make more money than their male counterparts. If they want some financial support from their husbands when the babies come along, so what?"
As to the first one. NO just plain NO on average men make more based on career choice.
As to the second point well that depends on a few factors. If she wants to have kids and then go to work fine agreed. You both want kids you should both pay for them. However if her fat ass wants to sit at home after the last kid is in school. Well of course we are going to resent her. However I'm not sure what her sexual history has to do with it? I can see the logic (though experience says otherwise) that a promiscuous women will stay so. How does this reflect on her being lazy?
"Otherwise find a woman who doesn't want kids." Got the bait and switch on that one and only when we got a house and our finances were locked. Again I have come to terms with this but the trust is utterly broken. I told her that point blank while talking to a divorce attorney. She wanted to stay so we made a deal. Once the kid goes to school you go back to work or I will stop being your friend (separate finances, separate bedrooms, probably separate houses) I will remain the child father but hate you for being a liar.
vlad at December 2, 2008 6:56 AM
Wow, vlad and mike...there's only one common denominator to all of these horrible encounters with women you've had...and it's you.
amh18057 at December 2, 2008 11:54 AM
"there's only one common denominator to all of these horrible encounters with women you've had...and it's you." Actually just one encounter for me. Not much of a statement on who I am. Putting some one in a position where they have no choice but to do what they are told isn't much of a accolade for you either. Isn't going to do much for trust either, correct me if I'm wrong.
vlad at December 2, 2008 2:33 PM
I know this is a post to a column some weeks ago, and it likely will not be read by anyone. But I have to disagree with Amy and most on a specific point. So while I agree with Amy and the posters that the LW's boyfriend's behavior is very troubling, I think Amy and the rest of you are dead wrong about past relationships as being "none of anyone's business". Amy writes often about many people just looking for someone, anyone, and I think that is correct. So how do you know if they are "settling" on you versus really being into you? The way i see it is to have some idea about what her track record is (or his). I guess I just see it different than others. I'd like to know some past history of the person I am hiring to be the shipping clerk. But for the woman I might spend many years with and vest much emotional energy in, I shouldn't have any idea about her romantic past or how much her past tendencies would point to me being more than that special anybody? Fyi, this ain't about "how many" partners she has had; This is about how many partners she's had that I have similarities to. Cause for me, personally, I think having had experience is a, ahem, big plus.
Tim at February 16, 2009 2:31 AM
How convenient, I was just reading a book on that 2 days ago @__@
remoteservicesoftware.com at August 24, 2011 3:24 AM
Leave a comment