Beating A Dad Horse
My husband and I have never had a good relationship. We got married six years ago because he needed someone to save him from drinking and destructive behavior, and I was seeking some sort of rebellion. I forced him to clean up his act by threatening to leave. He went back to school, graduated with honors, has a great job, and is respected by his peers. At work, he never misses a deadline or detail, and would never disappoint a colleague. At home, he's a completely uninvolved father, husband, and household member. The simplest chore is too much. He only does what he's absolutely nagged to death to do. Spending time with our two children is another chore. For instance, he was excited about our 5-year-old signing up for soccer, but found the kids' league dull and became uninterested in taking him to games and unwilling to even take him to practice. But for the kids, there'd be no question about getting a divorce. It was stupid to get married, but here we are.
--Married Single Mom
Sorry, but who "rebels" by becoming a suburban housewife? What are you, from a long line of pimps, prostitutes, and smack-addicted death metal artists?
At least you're clear on the fact that you married a man whose interest in children is akin to that of a guy I saw in Starbucks last month: intently reading the paper as his toddler ran around the place trying to pull a large iron sign over on himself, then seeing if he could crack his head open on any sharp objects. Yes, there's hands-on parenting, hands-off parenting, and "Hey, wait -- is that thing mine?"
Your husband may have detached his lip from the beer bong and started getting gold stars at the office, but drinking was just a symptom of the person he was -- and still is: an addict. Addicts are adult babies who refuse to endure boredom, disappointment, and life's struggles, grabbing for short-term gratification -- no matter how destructive -- and never mind how it mucks up tomorrow. As addiction treatment specialist Dr. Stanton Peele explains in 7 Tools to Beat Addiction, changing takes deciding another behavior -- like giving your best to parenting -- has more value than the momentary escape, whether it's into Wild Turkey country or just sitting there with your thumb up your nose watching TV instead of taking your kid to soccer.
By trying to turn having a family into a form of rehab, you made your bed and you could be the only one ever making it. That might not be fair, but forget fair and go with what's most important -- encouraging your husband to step up and dad. Note the word "encourage." Because men are achievement-oriented, you don't get anywhere by nagging. Instead, praise the guy for what he's accomplished so far, and explain that kids with an involved dad do better in school, social relationships, self-worth, and even in their own adult relationships (per a bunch of studies out of Oxford). In other words, by enduring a little tedium with the soccer league, he'll actually be making a substantial difference in the whippersnapper's life. Give him props for even the smallest effort he makes with the kids, and he might eventually find it within himself to take out the trash -- and before it starts looking ready for a trainer and a cage.
"Addicts are adult babies who refuse to endure boredom, disappointment, and life's struggles, grabbing for short-term gratification -- no matter how destructive -- and never mind how it mucks up tomorrow."
This looks lke a powerful argument against legalizing drugs: it would enable more of this behavior, and instantly. Yes, laws and the actions of some law enforcement agencies are unhinged, but that's a second wrong, not an excuse.
Sorry the LW has this problem, but another thought might be, "What is this guy escaping from, again?"
Radwaste at April 29, 2009 2:14 AM
Presumably she rebelled by going against advice from her family and going for the bad boy?
It's sad. She forced him to clean up and he sort of did, but you can't force someone to actually LIKE that cleaned up life, or feel responsible for doing any work in it.
Arwen at April 29, 2009 3:20 AM
We got married six years ago because he needed someone to save him from drinking and destructive behavior, and I was seeking some sort of rebellion.
Maybe it's because I'm in a particularly foul mood today, but that line really smells. She saved him! She's a rebel! What a saint she is -- surely she's entitled to be bitter that she's not worshipped as she sees fit. Surely she's entitled to nag the poor sap until he unloads the dishwasher. I wonder what bitter, resentful things the husband would say if he were writing Ms Alkon?
old rpm daddy at April 29, 2009 4:24 AM
-- encouraging your husband to step up and dad. Note the word "encourage." Because men are achievement-oriented, you don't get anywhere by nagging. Instead, praise the guy for what he's accomplished so far
________________________
Amy- Great Advice.
Dr. Laura has written a great book called The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands that echos your advice. Women write letters to her on her web-site that praise the turn around in their marraiges by practicing what you said above.
The majority of women try to nag their husbands into submission rather than praise them. And nagging is not an attractive quality to men.
David M. at April 29, 2009 6:23 AM
you don't get anywhere by nagging
Amen.....and amen. Women who feel they can both be a part of the relationship AND stand above it evaluating the other bring much trouble. You are in it TOGETHER. Gosh thats hard to get through to some
CAL at April 29, 2009 6:30 AM
This looks lke a powerful argument against legalizing drugs: it would enable more of this behavior, and instantly. Yes, laws and the actions of some law enforcement agencies are unhinged, but that's a second wrong, not an excuse.
Yes, because making drugs illegal has certainly stopped addicts from using them.
By that rationale, we should outlaw everything that an addict might use to escape from their life. This guy is now a workaholic, so we'd better outlaw work.
P at April 29, 2009 6:38 AM
Better make sex illegal too, because it could result in unwanted babies.
Chrissy at April 29, 2009 7:21 AM
-- encouraging your husband to step up and dad. Note the word "encourage." Because men are achievement-oriented, you don't get anywhere by nagging. Instead, praise the guy for what he's accomplished so far
Unfortunately, that only works with some guys. My ex wasn't one of them. I gave up and got out. We're both so much happier. Well, I am anyway. He's still a miserable leech, sucking his parents' finances dry.
Flynne at April 29, 2009 7:28 AM
The encouragement vs. nagging is a good one, but I think there is a bigger issue here. Sounds like LW can't stand the guy, and vice versa. So why stay together? For the kids? Maybe if hubby was an every-other-weekend dad then he'd grow a bit of desire to be around his kids...or maybe not, but at least it's a chance for him to stop taking the children for granted.
But I don't see why sticking together is a good thing...so maybe if she thanks him for the one chore he does a month, he'll do two chores next month - is that worth staying together and being miserable? I'd rather do the friggin' dishes myself.
I agree that LW got married for all the wrong reasons, and now she's annoyed and nagging him about it - but changing the tone of the nag doesn't change the fact that these two would probably be happier apart. The kids are NOT benefiting from a household of yelling and nagging. LW is pissed that she helped him become the success he is today, and feels that she got squat for it - well dear, you set the tone for that one; you've been on clean-up committee since before you even got married. Did you think that broom would magically fly you away to new heights? That only happens in Harry Potter. If she is willing to wise up on the next choice of man, then she should move on.
And oh, as for legalizing drugs - I think legalization actually makes drugs less desirable to potential users, like young people. Legal substances provide no sense of rebellion. Countries that have legalized heroin and provide 'treatment' centers where users can shoot up have shown that the legalization of a substance undercuts it's 'cool' factor, and drugs become something for losers, not cool kids, thus removing much of the temptation.
lori m at April 29, 2009 7:58 AM
I am "Married Single Mom". One of the commenters correctly assessed that, yes, the rebellion was the hasty marriage to someone with a drinking problem. Not proud of it, although I don't necessarily regret it. It's not ALL bad. And I can assure you the issue is not that I'm not sufficiently "worshipped" either. That's laughable. My life and this issue have been condensed to 2 paragraphs here, give me a break. I'm sure my husband would complain that I do indeed nag, and I wouldn't argue. But my husband would also say that I put up with a lot and that he does not pull his weight in our lives. We go back and forth: at one moment he wants to be a better dad and family member, and the next he doesn't really care. At one moment I can let things go and tell myself to shut up and deal, and the next I'm like, "you have GOT to be kidding me, you are a GROWN UP!!!" Anyway, advice is appreciated.
VN at April 29, 2009 8:14 AM
This looks lke a powerful argument against legalizing drugs(sic)
I agree with P. By this rationale, we should also outlaw all drugs which aren't illegal yet, as well as sex, gambling, chocolate, ice cream, fried food, the Internet, video games, and fun in general.
I posit that any activity which brings a perceived reward has the potential to result in addictive behavior. I do not see how outlawing a subset of these activities "solves" the problem.
lurker at April 29, 2009 8:42 AM
MSM says We go back and forth: at one moment he wants to be a better dad and family member, and the next he doesn't really care
My quickie advice is, the next time he's talking about how he wants to be a better dad, talk about setting goals to achieve this. A reward promised on the condition of regularly meeting these goals might associate the desired behavior with a positive outcome.
That and Amy's advice, of course ;)
lurker at April 29, 2009 8:48 AM
The surest way to turn a man into a workaholic who isn't involved with his family is to *nag* him.
Or maybe it's just who he is. Nobody's perfect. Maybe just accept that he's great at bringing home the bacon, but don't expect much more.
DavidJ at April 29, 2009 9:47 AM
"This looks lke a powerful argument against legalizing drugs: it would enable more of this behavior, and instantly."
No, it isn't, because it's none of your business if somebody else gets addicted to something. It only becomes anyone else's business when the symptoms of that addiction infringes on your rights, or the rights of e.g. children. I can be addicted as I want to whatever I want, and it's none of your business until I start demanding that somebody else pays for any damages I might cause in the process.
DavidJ at April 29, 2009 9:51 AM
"But my husband would also say" VN
yeah? No, he wouldn't. This has been the problem from the get-go. You looked at some guy, and decided that he presented a challenge to you. You decided for him that you needed to change him, and you decided that you would "HELP" him, regardless of his feelings in the matter.
You are wrong, and you have brought innocent children into the mix, just to make matters worse. The FIRST thing you need to do is to start treating this person as if they are a sovereign being and that their opinion matters. EVEN if they don't have one. His disinterest in doing anything that has to do with you [including your children] is rebellion against your demands to be the queen.
It may very well be that this relationship was beyond repair from the start, since yuou went in to it with such sanctimonious pretense. The kids may well be better if you just go your own ways. But if you want to try and keep it together, your first root change will be simple.
You will have to accept that your point-of-view isn't necessarily the correct one. That you might in fact be totally wrong about a great many things. Then you will have to decide if you have any feelings for this guy at all. Not for the situation, NOT because of the kids. For this guy and the person HE IS> Not who you think he could be. If you don't have that you are done.
Without that interest in him for his ownself, you will never have the interest in forgiving his foibles, and helping him if he asks for it. You will never be able to find out if he actually cares for you as well. These things are needed for you to make a go of this.
There is no assurance it will be pretty or if it will even last, but the basis you proceed from sets your path. It is entirely possible that Amy is right and his personality is addictive. Perhaps he will never be able to form healthy family bonds. Right now, though you are certainly co-dependant. You need to view him as a work in process. As someone who simply can't do anything without you. In this way you are as addicted as he. So. Why don't you choose yourself as a work in progress. And then you can see if he wants to come with you. if you actually care.
SwissArmyD at April 29, 2009 10:02 AM
Obviously, it is impossible for us outsiders to really know what is going on in these "he said" / "she said" cases (especially when we are only hearing the "she said" side of it.)
But if the guy is successful at work and admired by his colleagues, and only turns into a zombie at home, then I would bet 100-to-1 odds that the wife has (perhaps unwittingly!) turned his home life into such a living Hell that he automatically goes catatonic as soon as he pulls into the driveway, puts his deflector shields on full red alert, and just hunkers down to survive until he can escape back to work the next morning.
That is what guys do when they are confronted by shrewish, nagging women: they withdraw into their shells. And what else can they do? A guy can never out-talk a woman, and if they try to defend themselves in any other way, then they are automatically seen as "abusive husbands."
Giving the woman the benefit of the doubt: Maybe the guy did need a firm kick in the pants six years ago. But that was then, and this is now; and she should have had sense enough to lay off with the nagging and start using positive encouragement four years ago -- or whenever it was that he first started to show some improvement.
As far as the guy not caring about his kids: We only have her word for that, and there is an excellent chance that she has somehow managed to alienate him from the children or vice versa. For example, if she viciously criticizes every action that he takes or doesn't take with respect to the kids, and if he constantly feels "damned if he does and damned if he doesn't" then obviously he will respond by avoiding them.
If this woman cares about her children's happiness, she ought to run -- not walk -- to a professional counselor and get herself straightened out. Once she gets her problems solved, there is an excellent chance that the husband will come around automatically.
cato-999 at April 29, 2009 10:05 AM
Hey VN, good ups to you for posting a comment and clarifying a few things about your letter. But I gotta say, as long as you are there to pick up the slack at those times when he "doesn't really care," the more you are enabling him to have THE OPTION of slacking off. I'm not blaming it on you, but I do blame the lower standard that has been set for him. You helped set it, unfortunately. You are this guy's rehab, his stability, and his fallback plan: if he feels like doing right and being a good guy, he is welcome to step up at any time. But otherwise, he's still sitting down, with THE OPTION of standing. He is not (and never has had) any higher expectations set for him, and he's totally spoiled. You said it yourself: "you have GOT to be kidding me, you are a GROWN UP!!!"
I don't know, of course it's more complicated than I can say, but it sounds like you have 3 children, not two. Maybe an Ultimatum will force him to Man-Up, because so far he's just playing his options at his whimsy, and at your expense. Talk about selfish. When I say ultimatum, I mean, 'do better or get lost.' Make a decision and stick with it. If he 'doesn't care', then he should not care by himself, somewhere else. I think for you, knowing where he's going to stand (or sit) one way or another will be a positive healing force, and will enable you to proceed with more happiness in your life.
Lori M at April 29, 2009 10:09 AM
Letterwriter says:
"I forced him to [achieve something in life] by threatening to leave."
Man succeeds at something? She thinks it is because of her. But when man is no good at parenting (according to her standards), and her tirades do not solve it, that is his fault. If a teammate claims credit for the wins and blames you for the loses, how much effort would you put into playing?
LW: "But my husband would also say that I put up with a lot and that he does not pull his weight in our lives."
So wife is both better parent AND holds down a job that pays as much as his? (I am guessing no...)
LW: "I'm sure my husband would complain that I do indeed nag, and I wouldn't argue."
So quit nagging and say "thanks for working so hard at your job to feed our kids." My guess is he will smile--slightly, since he will wonder when the "but..." is coming--and be more willing to engage with you.
The way the letterwriter complains about this guy, I think of a warning someone once gave me: do not treat loved ones with less respect, courtesy and thoughtfulness than you treat absolute strangers. Is the LW nagging, say, check-out clerks and busboys who fail to meet her expectations? I bet not.
Spartee at April 29, 2009 10:10 AM
"At work, he never misses a deadline or detail, and would never disappoint a colleague. At home, he's a completely uninvolved father, husband, and household member."
Or, put another way, he works hard and wants to relax when he comes home.
How awful.
snakeman99 at April 29, 2009 10:29 AM
This is one of those times I am especially thankful for my tied little tubes.
Pirate Jo at April 29, 2009 11:06 AM
"At home........."
This guy doesn't have a home. She does, and he supports it - and she thinks it's all to her credit.
He should get the children DNA tested and if they're his he should turf her out, for their sake as much as for his. She's toxic. She can make CS payments and live in under an overpass if she has to.
Jim at April 29, 2009 11:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1645510">comment from Pirate JoThis is one of those times I am especially thankful for my tied little tubes.
You really do have a way with words! Love that.
Amy Alkon at April 29, 2009 11:08 AM
The blame game is too easy. Yeah, he makes the money and she probably doesn't bring in as much as him, but that's because she's the one taking care of their kids and household. Yeah, he needs peace and quiet when he gets home and yes, he deserves that, but when you have children, you DO have a responsibility to them, no matter what your day job is. Yeah, she wants a lot of credit for helping this guy get it together, but I'm sure he wanted that too, or else he would have married a bottle of rum instead of her. Yes, she could be an insufferable nag, but people DO have a way of bringing out the worst in each other.
What if we put the smaller details aside and assume everyone is a thinking, grown-up adult?
That means, If you don't want to have to maintenance a wife/kids/house, don't get married. If you want a guy who has his sh*t together enough to be the perfect husband/father, don't marry a guy who you KNEW didn't come equipped for the job. The real issue is that these people didn't know themselves well enough to embark on this mature journey of marriage and family, and now here they are, hating their lives, and each other.
Maybe that's the problem here - it is too unrealistic to assume that people seriously consider their choices and the consequences of those choices at the time they make them, so instead we have to nitpick the small details. It becomes so negative and unproductive.
lori m at April 29, 2009 11:53 AM
If the guy is successful and admired at work clearly hes a very capable performer. CLEARLY.
In principle he could bring the same qualities to his home "job." One possibile explanation to his failure to do so is due to lack of "project ownership."
Possibly theres nothing to be done...if the LW is like many wives she sees the home as Fidel sees Cuba and she would rather kill the kids, burn the house down and bury her husbands body in the mountains than truly share power,responsilities AND rewards.
Which is OK. Many successful marriages dont achieve domestic happiness by power sharing...many achieve it by the husband (typically) granting the wife (typically) her autocracy and then being happy with the result. And vice-versa.
I prescribe to the LW an intensive dose of expectation management.
Additionally, she should take a page from her husbands book and become a stellar performer at her domestic duties...including the leadership ones.
This would both put her back on firmer ethical ground with respect to her expectations and also encourage her husband in his subordinate role.
Subordinate performance improves remarkably when subordinate leadership goes from mediocre to outstanding.
Heres a hint: If nagging is part of your leadership reportoire then you SUCK at leadership. Just saying.
Peter at April 29, 2009 11:56 AM
-- he isn't all that interested in the kids' practice or games---
Well, maybe that just makes him a frigg'n normal adult... I have a kid too and frankly kiddie sports are boring and after watching them for nine years I have decided that they are less for the kids and more for the adults who are interested in one upping the neighbors than for the kids themselves... My husband works hard all week.... he leaves before the sun is up and comes home well after six p.m..... the LAST thing he wants to do with his Saturday is spend the day with a pack of ill behaved, spoiled kids AND their awful parents who can't say no to anything... I live in a thoroughly middle-class neighborhood where it is considered child abuse to not have your child enrolled in every sport and activity under the sun... you are then expected not only to watch every practice, but spend your whole weekend working at the various events your child is in... I finally said enough and we don't do it anymore... This does not me or my husband uninvolved parents... it makes us NORMAL!!!
Sorry, this has clearly touched a nerve...
sheepmommy at April 29, 2009 12:05 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1645523">comment from sheepmommyThroughout human history parents have largely ignored children, not spent hours playing with them, and children have turned out okay. Children are socialized by peer group interactions and should be playing with each other (Judith Rich Harris is the best person on this).
My mother NEVER played with me, nor did my father. I went out in the sandbox and made homes for worms with a stick. And when I was a little older, I dove into books and didn't come out until I was 21. (Parents could have done better in the socializing the kid thing -- never had friends as a child. In essence, I was socialized as well as I could be by imaginary friends from books, which really isn't enough, but I worked out the snags later in life -- rather painfully, but I managed.)
Amy Alkon at April 29, 2009 12:20 PM
First - ”At home, he's a completely uninvolved father, husband, and household member. The simplest chore is too much. He only does what he's absolutely nagged to death to do. Spending time with our two children is another chore.”
Then…
”But for the kids, there'd be no question about getting a divorce.”
Sorry VN, these two thoughts seem too be just a little too incongruent.
If, as you claim, he’s such a lousy father, what exactly would be the issue if you divorced him? Wouldn’t you be free of him, the children still have the same (non)involvement with him, plus, you’d still have his money through child-alimony.
That’s pretty much the modern feminists dream situation.
So, again, what’s with this ”But for the kids, there'd be no question about getting a divorce” stuff?
Okay, I’d also have to admit I have a hard time buying you’re contention that he does basically nothing. I’ve seen a number of martial situations in which the wife complains endlessly about how her good-for-nothing husband doesn’t do anything to help around the house – only to find out that what she really meant was that he didn’t do exactly what she expected of him.
Typically, the good-for-nothing lazy jerk actually did do a fair bit of the house cleaning and child rearing; and, in most cases he also did ALL of the outdoor and non-housework chores as well – mowing, car maintenance, home repairs, snow shoveling, etc. (all those things which never seem to count as housework in all those polls designed to show how much more housework women do than men); it just always seemed that his real sin was that he didn’t do it HER WAY. Perhaps, much like they have done, you too, might be embellishing your story a bit here?
So, I guess I’d have to ask, does this husband you so despise (but won’t divorce) not do any of the chores around the house – not even the mowing, etc.?
Also, while you make it clear that he works outside the home (successfully, it seems), it’s unclear whether or not you do. Now, if you also work full time, I can well agree that he should be expected to assume a significant portion of the daily household cooking/cleaning/child care chores.
However, if you are a stay at home mother, while I can certainly agree he ought to provide some level of assistance, the fact that you have chosen to be at home ostensibly to be a full-time homemaker ought to confer on you the bulk of those tasks. I’ve seen cases in which such stay-at-homes did not believe that it was their primary responsibility to do so, and had the expectation that their partner should be required to do half the housework on top of their full-time job.
Additionally, from this:
It seems to me that it can be inferred that YOU signed your son up for soccer, and he initially expressed interest (perhaps to appease you?), but wasn’t really all that interested after all. But, if that’s the case, shouldn’t the parent who DID want the kids in extra-circular activities be the one to take responsibility?
I guess I’d also have to ask, how much of this is really him not being a good father, and how much is simply him not living up to your expectations of what a father should do?
Note – I’m asking these questions as a man who does do house work, does all the lawn/car work, took care of our kids, and, in fact, was the de facto “soccer mom” for all of our kids – so I’m not looking to defend a lazy guy, I’m really just not convinced that your assertions are entirely accurate regarding your husband.
slwerner at April 29, 2009 1:07 PM
Me again (Married Single Mom). Ok first off, I've exchanged at least 6 lengthy emails with Ms. Alkon, so the above is her paraphrase of my notes. Much of that is NOT my words. Which is fine, I have no problem with how she summed it up, but you people are using her quotes to indict me, not my own words. Again, this is two paragraphs of our life together, and yes only my side of the story, so please stop filling in the gaps with your fantasies, that's not exactly helpful when you make crap up and then advise me based on your work of fiction.
And the comment about killing the kids was just hurtful. I am not a tyrant, and my kids could not be more important to me. I have no idea why anyone would assume we scream in front of them, I never said anything like that. We don't. I understand you only have one side of the story, but you can't MAKE UP the other side. All you have to go on is what I said, like it or not. I'm actually trying to be as honest and fair as possible. I'm not claiming to be a saint, I admit I nag.
A few other corrections (it's remarkable how much you people assume! You don't have the info so you make it up??):
I work, I make outstanding hourly wage plus benefits for our whole family, but work about half as much as he does.
This is not tit-for-tat. I'm ok doing more around the house and for the kids, even a lot more, but I'm not ok with straight lazy.
My husband was an alcoholic (and worse) when we met. I admit it was stupid to marry someone with those issues, but I did. I'm not defending it, it's done. (Here, I will save you the trouble: I'm an idiot). Early in our relationship he BEGGED me to help him get his life together. It was horrible.
We do not hate each other. We love each other a lot, we're just dysfunctional.
I did not TURN this man into a lazy, noncontributing person. You can DEFINITELY say I don't HELP the situation, but you are sorely mistaken to say it's my fault. He lived in a nasty apartment with a moldy bathroom before we met. I assumed he would grow out of it, or maybe he didn't know how to clean. I also didn't think about the reality of cleaning up after a grown man for the rest of eternity... I didn't even consider it a possibility.
Soccer was my husband's idea.
I forgot the rest of the crap I wanted to respond to.
VN at April 29, 2009 1:11 PM
"Throughout human history parents have largely ignored children..."
That seems overstated. Read the accounts of heartbroken parents who buried one or more of their offspring during some epidemic in the middle ages and you conclude that they loved and doted on kids much like we do. True, they lacked the material wealth to indulge kids to the same degree, but that is not the same as not wanting to. Heck, I seem to recall that humans were carefully burying their offspring's bodies before there was even writing, suggesting emotional attachment and grief when those children died.
Much like we are wired for certain types of attraction, we seem wired to care for our kids. (All bell curve distribution variability qualifiers apply to that statement--so please, no triumphal anecdotes about drunken, abusive parents who don't care a whit as though that proves something.)
While humans may mistreat that which they care about, they usually don't largely ignore it, like lint.
Spartee at April 29, 2009 1:15 PM
I'm not saying he does literally nothing, I'm saying he does pathetically little. Stop putting words in my mouth.
And no he does no yard work. We pay someone to mow and that's all that happens in the yard. Car maintenance... Yes on repairs, no on regular stuff like oil changes.
VN at April 29, 2009 1:36 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1645537">comment from Spartee"Throughout human history parents have largely ignored children..." That seems overstated. Read the accounts of heartbroken parents who buried one or more of their offspring during some epidemic in the middle ages and you conclude that they loved and doted on kids much like we do
By this I mean they weren't micromanaging their every move; more specifically, they weren't playing with them. They didn't have time.
Amy Alkon at April 29, 2009 1:36 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1645539">comment from VNOk first off, I've exchanged at least 6 lengthy emails with Ms. Alkon, so the above is her paraphrase of my notes. Much of that is NOT my words.
I do have lengthy e-mail exchanges with people who write me, and when those e-mails become a question I use for my column, it's a tremendous process to edit it down to the length that's appropriate for the column. I do my best to maintain the person's actual language and to truthfully convey what the deal is, although I will change certain details (like age, years together, or other specifics) to protect the privacy of those involved.
The letter writer isn't a bad person -- she married a guy for the wrong reasons, as many people do, and is now trying to make it work. I have very strong opinions about what people owe kids -- and this woman cares about her kids -- and they play into how I answered this.
Amy Alkon at April 29, 2009 1:40 PM
One little thing I'd like to suggest, if I may...If you can afford it, hire a maid service. It's not going to solve any of the deeper relationship problems, but it'll get rid of at least one source of argument and resentment. Husband and I have been married almost 5 years (no kids right now, but soon...), and the man DOES NOT CLEAN. He thinks he does, though. He puts his shoes away, straightens the coffee table books, and thinks the house is clean. Most men don't see the layer of dust on the shelves, the smudges on the TV, the empty roll of toilet paper, the mildew in the shower, the dirt on the floor, etc. They don't understand why it takes them 5 minutes to "clean the house," but it takes us 5 hours. You're not going to fix that, and you'll have the same problem with most of them. They also don't understand why the house smells better when you clean it than when they do.
Anyway, I work full-time, husband works more than full-time, and it's just not worth arguing about the chores. Perhaps you've tried the little experiment where you stop cleaning and see how long it takes for him to start? Never turns out well. Plus, he's not there when you're doing all of this stuff around the house, therefore he doesn't see it, and he doesn't understand that it really is work.
Do whatever is within your means to avoid sources of resentment.
Don't make yourself a martyr because you think that's what you're supposed to do. If you can get someone in once a week (or even every other week), you just have to maintain it, and do dishes daily and laundry as needed.
ahw at April 29, 2009 1:42 PM
"He lived in a nasty apartment with a moldy bathroom before we met."
What is wrong with that, from his perspective?
"I assumed he would grow out of it, or maybe he didn't know how to clean."
Why would you assume such a thing? This is the point where you tell him what's good for him, no matter what he thinks. Let him go his own way...
or are you afraid to do that? Are you afraid he might actually be happier without your "help"?
SwissArmyD at April 29, 2009 1:43 PM
VN, regarding your husband spending time with the kids. I have to say I agree with a commenter above that watching kids at a soccer practice has to be more boring than watching paint dry. He's just stuck sitting there watching while they play. How about if he plays soccer WITH them? Or some other activity where he actually interacts with them insted of being a spectator?
I know it's not fair for him to go bond with the kids by playing games while you do their laundry. But it sounds like he needs a closer bond with them, and then maybe he would pitch in and help more when they were sick or needed a body part cleaned.
Pirate Jo at April 29, 2009 1:49 PM
"...Throughout human history parents have largely ignored children..."
" ...That seems overstated. Read the accounts of heartbroken parents who buried one or more of their offspring during some epidemic in the middle ages and you conclude that they loved and doted on kids much like we do...."
I was going to quibble with Amy over that statement also: For MOST of human history, children WORKED alongside of their parents from about the age of six on up, until they got married at around 14 for girls and 20 for boys. Play would have been a luxury except perhaps for the very rich.
cato-999 at April 29, 2009 2:02 PM
Ms. Alkon, thank you. I thought you did a fine job of summing things up, I just wanted to make sure that since people are DISSECTING my words, they knew it was just paraphrasing.
I love my kids AND my husband. I'm not some crazy, controlling housewife whose kids are in Mandaton Chinese at the age of 2. I don't have psychotic standards that must be met. I am a reasonable person. Even in our worst arguments, my husband has never accused me of much of this. Just because I admit I nag doesnt make me some stereotype of a shrew. Seriously, stop assuming.
VN at April 29, 2009 2:20 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1645551">comment from VNYou're welcome. Didn't want you to be wrongly accused, and it's not helpful. You understand marrying this guy was a mistake and now you're trying to make the best of it, looking for answers. I respect that.
Amy Alkon at April 29, 2009 2:23 PM
@VN, 1:11 PM: ...I have no problem with how she summed it up, but you people are using her quotes to indict me, not my own words.
Point taken. And since I think I was the first one to start in with the snark this morning, please accept my apology. You're right -- what appeared as your letter might not have been word-for-word what you really meant. As a result, readers wind up filling in the holes with their own assumptions. And as you've noticed, there's nothing Ms Alkon's readers love more than a good verbal donnybrook!
Regarding other ideas put forth in Ms Alkon's recommendations and readers' comments: I have no doubt you work very hard. We have three kids, and I see every day how hard my wife works. I have no doubt your husband works very hard as well, at least until he gets home. So I actually agree with most of what Ms Alkon says -- encouragement would work a lot better than nagging, and I suspect his acceptance of responsibility would be much less grudging.
old rpm daddy at April 29, 2009 2:24 PM
VN: Just as a curiosity question has he been checked for ADD? The drinking could have been self medication more than alcoholism. It is a fairly well documented situation.
vlad at April 29, 2009 2:25 PM
"Just because I admit I nag doesnt make me some stereotype of a shrew."
YES IT DOES !!!!!!!!!
If you can only take away one useful piece of advice from the entire discussion, let it be this:
For 99 out of 100 guys, NAGGING IS COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE! At best he will tune you out; at worst he will come to hate you for it, and not listen to anything that you say.
jay-w at April 29, 2009 2:29 PM
His soccer was just an example. It would be great if he went outside and played soccer with him. As I said, he was really excited about soccer at first. He actually went and bought a popup soccer net for the yard to practice. Number of times it's been used in 8 months: 0
VN at April 29, 2009 2:30 PM
Mandaton = Mandarin. Was typing on a cell phone.
VN at April 29, 2009 2:34 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1645557">comment from jay-wOne of the single most important things I know about men is how ineffective and even damaging nagging is. It makes the guy see you as the enemy, somebody to escape from, and makes him instantly get his back up about whatever the task is at hand. The subject becomes that he's bad, he's somehow a failure in your eyes, and he gets defensive. No person will ever do everything you want them to. Your best bet is picking somebody who mostly fits with what your needs are. If you're really neat and a mess drives you crazy, well, I would be a poor choice of girlfriend. I'm not dirty, mind you, but my house regularly looks "recently ransacked," thanks to the piles of books, papers, and studies everywhere. Gregg thinks this is "cute." Lucky me.
Amy Alkon at April 29, 2009 2:35 PM
"Soccer was my husband's idea."
His judgment is immediately suspect. As any good American knows, soccer sucks.
snakeman99 at April 29, 2009 2:48 PM
VN, I have a lot of respect for the fact that you are posting here. I wish more of Amy's letter-writers did, but I guess I don't blame them for not doing it, if they are immediately put on the defensive! It takes guts to admit that you nag too much, and what do you get for your trouble? Flame-broiled to a toasty crisp! I don't even recognize most of the commenters who are posting nasty comments. But fuck 'em!
I guess I am sort of focusing on the relationship between your husband and the kids. How old are the kids? What does he like about them? Can you think of anything he could do with them, that's not chore-related, that he would enjoy?
My mom was kind of a single married mom, too. She didn't have a job outside the home, and not to be cruel, but it didn't seem like she did that much inside the home either. My brother and I were taught to clean house and do chores, which was good. But her time seems to have been largely spent trying to find ways to fill her time. We lived out in the boonies however, and with few job skills, I can also acknowledge that it would never have been financially worthwhile for her to drive 45 miles to a job that only paid a few dollars an hour and then try to pay for childcare on top of that.
My dad was this mostly-absent person who supplied money. He was always tired, always grouchy, and didn't seem to enjoy being a father. I didn't mind so much, as I didn't enjoy being around him either. Yet when I went off to college and got a couple of letters from him (I'm sure it was my mom's idea, in retrospect) I was absolutely delighted!
I don't know how your kids feel about their dad, VN, and I don't know how old they are. It does seem, among men I've dated in the past who are fathers (divorced, of course!), most of them tended to admit they didn't think kids were much fun until they were at least yay-high (holding hand out to about hip height). Which doesn't excuse his being a slug at home, but I'm still thinking he might be a more involved dad if he got more into the fun part of it first.
Pirate Jo at April 29, 2009 4:02 PM
Well this is much less entertaining with the LW posting to correct misapprehensions and add more nuancing detail.
Hopefully next week we will return to our regular format.
Peter at April 29, 2009 7:28 PM
"We go back and forth: at one moment he wants to be a better dad and family member, and the next he doesn't really care"
Or maybe he sometimes just feels like he's supposed to try feel like he cares, but deep down doesn't really, and that seems too horrible to admit (even perhaps to himself). But maybe it's not as abnormal as society makes it out. Accepting a certain amount of of family 'dysfunctionality' can actually be fun and even healthy for the kids, especially if it makes the parents more happy and relaxed and accepting of themselves. Doing fake bonding and pretending to be something you're not out of some sense of guilt for not being Mr Wonderful Parent may not be the best for the kids. Accepting you're a bit of a dingbat and just rolling with it and having fun might make for a happier home.
Difficult to say though with so little information actually.
DavidJ at April 29, 2009 7:47 PM
"Or maybe he sometimes just feels like he's supposed to try feel like he cares, but deep down doesn't really"
This isn't to say he doesn't love the kids, I'm sure he does (bringing home the bacon diligently is one way a man shows love) ... just that, just because you love your kids, doesn't mean you have to sit and do 'forced' 'faux' bonding activities with them the whole time. (I think.) I've known some very happy
'dysfunctional-on-the-surface' families.
DavidJ at April 29, 2009 7:51 PM
OK, sorry to post again, but to summarise another way: I almost get the impression that maybe he feels like he is being expected to be one kind of person, that in reality he might not just be. Doesn't mean he's 'just an ass' - rather, foster and promote the positive aspects of who he actually is, than criticise who he isn't (personality-wise - I don't mean justify being a slob). (He should interact with the kids within the framework of his personality.)
DavidJ at April 29, 2009 7:56 PM
The LW married for the wrong reasons. The LW likely married the wrong person (at least wrong for her). No need to act so harshly to her, people make this mistake all the time. Personally, I think TV and other forms of media inculcate people into an unworkable way of thinking about relationships (with an appalling lack of truth and exposure about what relationships are really like. Amy's columns are one of the exceptions to this rule.). And the result is thousands of marriages based on an illogical and untenable foundations. Cut her some slack for making what seems a very human mistake.
She is going to spend a lifetime being frustrated and resentful, likely, with at best marginal gains toward having him do things that will ease her frustration and resentment. She's got two realistic choices. 1)Leave him and start a new life. 2) Find a way to get a comfort zone with how this guy is. Then make the best of that comfort zone.
Amy is absolutely right. Find someone who has commonalities with you. An old episode of Cheers had John Cleese on as a marriage expert. When he pronounced Sam And Diane too different to marry, Diane says "what about that opposites attract". His line back was "the only thing opposites attract is divorce". Written as comedy but something that is true in my experience.
TW at April 29, 2009 9:40 PM
"I forced him to clean up his act by threatening..."
Uh huh.
I once worked for a woman in her 70's who had been a marriage counselor for 40 years.
"Show me a husband who's an alcoholic, I'll show you a woman who's controlling." She used to say.
We used to talk a lot and she said it's very common for men who live with controlling overbearing and abusive wives to drink and numb over the feelings of being inadequate.
No, addicts are not "babies" who refuse to tolerate life's normal ups and downs.
Addicts are people who endured tremendous and exceptional emotional pain at the hands of a parent(s), who repressed it and shoved it all down..because they weren't allowed to feel.
The drugs/alcohol numbs over that pain until hopefully at some point the addict learns the SOURCES of that pain and learns the skills to ADDRESS that pain.
The depth of emotional pain after 18 years of abuse can't possibly be assessed by anyone who's never experienced it.
Larry at April 30, 2009 12:26 AM
Staying for the kids sake is a convenient excuse or code for "I am not willing to make the sacrifice necessary to change my life for the better." LW is a model for her children. She shouldn't nag or encourage. Neither party is happy in the marriage and still won't be if he becomes SuperDad which by the way he will not because it is not what he wants right now. She is showing her children that this is what marriage is and it is a shame because she is setting a low bar of expectations for when they are in a relationship. She should be better and stronger and build her life and show her children that mistakes can be fixed and poor choices do not have to be permanent. Take the good with the bad. Neither one is bad or evil, but they are both stuck in a place they do not want to be and that is not the best thing for those kids.
Kristen at April 30, 2009 6:06 AM
Chiming in a suggestion-- perhaps the guy is just exhausted?
Giving his all at work, perhaps he comes home and just doesn't have the physical, mental or emotional ENERGY needed to interact meaningfully with small children.
Kids are exhausting. I'm tired just thinking about them. I have one child. I know I cannot tolerate any more. Even supervising multiple children for longer than fifteen minutes wears me out to my last frazzled synapse. I doff my hat to pre-K, kindergarten, and elementary school teachers, as well as day care workers, because I sure as hell DO NOT have what it takes to do that work. And... maybe the husband doesn't, either?
VN, rather than having him spend time alone with the kids, it might help if all of you engaged in a low-stress family activity, like going to the park for a picnic on the weekends. Just for an hour, nothing too ambitious or taxing! Let the kids play, let him read the paper or snooze against a tree, whatever! The benefits are that everyone gets to unwind, and yet everyone has happy memories of spending time together. Win-win. :)
Melissa G at April 30, 2009 7:23 AM
" ...it might help if all of you engaged in a low-stress family activity, like going to the park for a picnic on the weekends...."
Maybe, but I can guarantee you that if she then decides to utilize that 'family time' as an opportunity to nag him about why he didn't take out the trash and clean the garage, then it will NOT help.
cato-999 at April 30, 2009 8:08 AM
VN -- good on you for showing up on the thread. Love to hear back at some point how Amy's advice worked. You've said that you both love each other so I'm wondering if you're able to make a list of what exactly it is you love about him. If you can identify those things, you've got a starting point of the things you can verbally appreciate him for to help stop the nagging. Then when he does something you formerly thought was "nag-worthy" you can recall your list which might make it easier to let those things go.
If you can't come up with a list, then you're in more trouble than you thought.
moreta at April 30, 2009 11:08 AM
Hi-
A little while ago someone mentioned ADD. I encourage you to look into this.
I'm in a similar situation. .. and my beau has cleaned up his act. And, we have entirely different backgrounds. And, it seems he has some ADD, which will get figured out by his getting a neurospych evaluation at some point.
If you know what a problem is, you can usually find a solution, or a way of managing . . .I've been continually frustrated by some of his behaviour. . That said, I've now read Finding Love On The Other Side of The Tracks (and he's reading it) and we've some done couple's counseling, and he has worked a 12-step program for 2 years +. . . . as soon as he can, he'll go back and do some therapy.
I wish I'd read the book sooner, as it would have stopped some fights. He is learning; we're in different places in our lives, and did I mention that patience wasn't my strong suit?
So---after 3 years- I'm finally with a clear-headed man back on his career, work, life track---and it's as though he is NOT the same person I first met. . . I have to retrain myself to be with this new guy and work at letting go of my resentments.
So-- I can relate-- just check the ADD factor. It can be a huge part of what is going on.
Boy oh boy did this bring out the worst in me-- and inspire me to be a better person.
Enjoy!
pq at April 30, 2009 9:07 PM
Reason #234654 not to get married.
Moe at April 30, 2009 9:21 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1645816">comment from pqI have ADHD, for which I take Ritalin and write absolutely everything down. I don't abuse substances or shirk my responsibilities, although it's hard for me to listen to boring public speakers without Ritalin.
What do you mean by "it seems he has some ADD," and that it will get figured out by a neuropsych evaluation at some point? People with ADD or ADHD actually have behavior in common -- I find this with people I meet, and a friend of mine who has ADD talks in hyperlinks just like me. I try not to do this around normal people, but I love how she can follow what I'm saying and vice versa without me making an effort to speak in linear English.
Amy Alkon at May 1, 2009 12:14 AM
Regarding the "Nagging"...
I definitely sympathize and understand what Single Married Mom is going through.
I did not marry an alcoholic or a drug addict - I married my best friend. We have been married for 13 years and he has slowly morphed into some strange mutant walking around our house. He USED to help me around the house and was a devoted father. Now he is lazy and extremely selfish. He is hateful and finds any reason to gripe lately. Our kids' disdain for him is painfully obvious - despite my attempts to stick up for him.
I am not the nagging kind. I am giving and extrememly patient so it really annoys me when I explain how I feel about his behavior and he tells me that I am "bitching".
Perhaps he is depressed? Or maybe we have just both changed. I can tell you one thing - I will not continue to live in an unhappy home. I will ask him to seek counseling with me and pray that we can cross the bridge together...I guess that time will tell.
Anji at May 1, 2009 10:00 AM
Why should husbands help around the house?
Do women write articles and letters to newspapers saying women should step up and help out in the yard?
Name one article you've ever read that says "Men take out the garbage, fix the car, clean the gutters, mow the lawns, paint the fence, fix the roof, seal the driveway, dig the ditches, lift the heavy things, build the book shelves, protect women when there's danger, fix the door hinges, prune the trees, pay for dinner, pay for the vacations, stain the deck, lay the bricks, clean the BBQ, fix the busted pipe under the sink, rake the leaves, shovel the snow, move the furniture, fix the washer, fix the dryer, fix the dishwasher, fix the lawn sprinklers...So us women need to step up and start helping our husbands out around the yard and home".
If you find that article...please share it with me.
John at May 1, 2009 10:47 AM
There is no article that states that men should do all of the above. I do just about all of that - except for mechanical duties.
Sharing a household means just that. If a spouse is unwilling to get their lazy ass off of the couch while the other is working a full-time job and busting their behind around the house...Well, that is just inconsiderate, arrogant and selfish.
Anji at May 1, 2009 11:05 AM
I wasn't writing it as "men go take out the garbage" as in a command. I was writing it as in what men ALREADY do.
"Men *already* take out the trash..." etc.
I'd love for a woman to show me a single article anywhere that has ever listed what men do for the home.
I can pick up any woman's mag and show a list of what women do in the house, followed by advice on how to get men to help out.
Most of what women do for the home, is inside. Most of what men do for the home, is outside.
Also Anji I didn't say *YOU* are lazy or don't help hubby out, I commented in general.
If women want men to help in the house, then they have to help men in the garage/outside.
But what's the point? Neither has LESS work...they've simply traded a few things.
Feminism and it's cyclical reasoning will always be beyond me.
John at May 1, 2009 6:25 PM
Sorry to take up more space but just to clarify, if spouses live in an apartment or otherwise have no yard, and don't own a home to upkeep (gutters, roof etc)...then of course MOST of the home duties would be INSIDE and both would be obliged to do an equal share of those work duties...
John at May 1, 2009 6:29 PM
Hey Amy, just a side note here:
Since you've changed your diet to a high fat/low carb one, you may want to try and see if your ADD symptoms have begun to ease up. Perhaps you may be able to quit taking your meds too!
I've read extensively on the topics you've covered here regarding Taubes et al, and I've read numerous articles that trace ADD, depression and a whole host of other medical issues that may in fact be due to the low fat/high carb diet that has become the SAD (Standard American Diet).
As for the Letter writer: basic truths in life:
You cannot truly change anyone but yourself.
You can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.
Just think about THAT the next time you want something done and realize that you're falling into nagging.
Remember that "nag" by you and "ignore" by him is really a destructive, negative feedback loop that will end in a death spiral unless ONE of you breaks the circle.
Since you cannot truly change anyone but yourself...if YOU want to break the circle, it's up to you.
Because it looks to me, on the limited info you provided, and my own former problems in my own marriage...that he's resigned to apathetic co-existence.
He's already got his conditioned responses on auto pilot when he comes home tired from work and gets his daily dose of nagging from you.
I bet you have a look on your face and a tone in your voice that when he sees and hears, he automatically shuts down mentally.
Only YOU can change that conditioned response you provoke in him. Because he's not really even consciously thinking about it...he's just trying to get along to go along.
He can NEVER make YOU happy. Only you can learn to do that for yourself.
And before you fall into the trap that you think you'll find happiness in divorce and finding a new "love" with a new man, understand that your future happiness will be tempered by seeing the inevitable lifetime of unhappiness and heartbreak a broken home visits upon young children. Your children.
You may find it easy to rationalize it by blaming him for your children's pain...but really, face the facts. It takes two to make a marriage work. Are you really doing YOUR part? Or are you only focusing on how he's failing at his own part so that you don't have to really face the truth of how your own part is playing a prominent role in both of your problems? Yeah, you admitted you nag.
Some here give you credit for admitting it. Bullshit. You only deserve credit if you actually do something about the only thing you can really control: your own behavior.
Good luck making YOUR life better. Because it really is up to you.
Dave from Hawaii at May 1, 2009 10:22 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1645974">comment from Dave from HawaiiThanks, Dave, but I was eating rather limited carbs before, and while I have much more energy, my ADHD is still the same. Frankly, I love my brain. It's my favorite toy and Disneyland, but without all the sticky kids and dumb rides.
Amy Alkon at May 1, 2009 11:33 PM
Women seem to have very high expectations of men, so are invariably disappointed by them. I think a lot of these expectations are unrealistic, and are based on romance movies & books, or what they read in magazine.
I was married once (divorced now) and have lived with a few different guys, and I know that living with a man is not for me. If you take the time to get to know yourself and then take the time to see who your guy is, you'll have a very happy relationship.
Chrissy at May 2, 2009 6:53 AM
Easy on the "smack addicted death metal artists," Amy. Most of us don't do much drugs - if any - at all. We're actually a fairly tame and well-behaved crowd when we're not playing.
;-)
metalman at May 6, 2009 2:49 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1646847">comment from metalmanEasy on the "smack addicted death metal artists," Amy. Most of us don't do much drugs - if any - at all. We're actually a fairly tame and well-behaved crowd when we're not playing. ;-)
Sorry, but "smack-addicted Julie Andrews fans" didn't seem to cut it.
Amy Alkon at May 6, 2009 3:02 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1646848">comment from Amy AlkonP.S. Mentioned Cannibal Corpse in this week's column (for this week's deadline, rather).
Amy Alkon at May 6, 2009 3:03 PM
I find this thread fascinating, but not for any obvious reasons. It's interesting to me that the posts went along in their usual, hell-bent on tearing the LW a new one, style until the LW made her entrance. A few apologies followed, along with a slightly less snarky tone. I'm interested in what Amy has to think about this given that her new soon to be published book is regarding Rude People. Our society is invisible. We can talk to people we will never meet. We are not looking into each other's eyes when we talk. We have become rude, presumptuous.
I liked Amy's response. It pointed out the problems the LW needed to focus on in a witty fashion, then gave her some ideas about how to bring about a positive change. So often her fans follow her good advice with the usual "leave the bum!" and "it's your own fault!"
Really fascinating to see a LW jump into the mix. Worth my time.
Laurie at May 7, 2009 12:37 PM
Dr. Laura also says if you treat your husband as if you love him, you will love him.
Cato, I think it was,said a mouthful. When a high achiever at work comes in the house and goes catatonic, he is under heavy gunfire in the house.
Do not think that kids do better without their father. Studies have consistently shown that kids do better with their less than perfect father, than without him, unless their is violence or sexual abuse.
And, just because Amy can find other boy friend does not mean a woman with two brats can.
irlandes at May 10, 2009 8:48 AM
For those of you who don't think the woman should stay with her husband:
Perhaps the reason she is staying is that divorced people=trash. I myself would never befriend, or have a relationship with, someone who was divorced. If they can't keep a commitment in that area, who knows if they can keep one in others.
M at May 10, 2009 2:24 PM
Coming a little late to the party but I couldn't leave this one alone:
"Name one article you've ever read that says "Men take out the garbage, fix the car, clean the gutters, mow the lawns, paint the fence, fix the roof, seal the driveway, dig the ditches, lift the heavy things, build the book shelves, protect women when there's danger, fix the door hinges, prune the trees, pay for dinner, pay for the vacations, stain the deck, lay the bricks, clean the BBQ, fix the busted pipe under the sink, rake the leaves, shovel the snow, move the furniture, fix the washer, fix the dryer, fix the dishwasher, fix the lawn sprinklers...So us women need to step up and start helping our husbands out around the yard and home"
Really John? Because my parents BOTH do almost all of these things. They also both do indoor chores like cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. When there's a big project to be done like painting a room or mulching the garden, they work together. And they both work and pay for vacations and dinner. They're a team and they WANT to help each other out, not squabble over who does what chore.
My parents have a great and healthy relationship. Your idea of relationships, however, seems to be derived from the 1950s, and what you *think* is written in women's magazines. Good luck with that.
Shannon at May 11, 2009 7:14 AM
Coming a little late to the party but I couldn't leave this one alone:
"Name one article you've ever read that says "Men take out the garbage, fix the car, clean the gutters, mow the lawns, paint the fence, fix the roof, seal the driveway, dig the ditches, lift the heavy things, build the book shelves, protect women when there's danger, fix the door hinges, prune the trees, pay for dinner, pay for the vacations, stain the deck, lay the bricks, clean the BBQ, fix the busted pipe under the sink, rake the leaves, shovel the snow, move the furniture, fix the washer, fix the dryer, fix the dishwasher, fix the lawn sprinklers...So us women need to step up and start helping our husbands out around the yard and home"
Really John? Because my parents BOTH do almost all of these things. They also both do indoor chores like cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. When there's a big project to be done like painting a room or mulching the garden, they work together. And they both work and pay for vacations and dinner. They're a team and they WANT to help each other out, not squabble over who does what chore.
My parents have a great and healthy relationship. Your idea of relationships, however, seems to be derived from the 1950s, and what you *think* is written in women's magazines. Good luck with that.
Shannon at May 11, 2009 7:14 AM
Why on earth would the LW stay in a relationship with a man who makes her unhappy and ignores all parenting responsibilities like loving or caring for the kids he helped make? Skip the dishes- he's screwing up your kids, get out now! Kids can tell when you have no interest in them or what they say or think or feel. Yes, they can be (really) boring and gabby but they are still little people and if he was an avid participant in making them, he should be just as devoted to raising them. When they hit their teens and are finally 'interesting' enough for him to give a crap they might already loathe him and it'll be too late. I'm not saying he owes the family his undivided attention 24/7 when he gets home, everyone needs at least an hour after work to detox, but after that, read them a book before bed dude, it won't kill you. And when they grow up, it might keep them from killing you.
If you do love each other and he's just detached, couple's counseling might help. I can't see how it would hurt.
And M- are you serious? Since over half the nation is divorced, I'm thinking you have very few friends. Thinking a divorce makes a person not worth knowing makes you a moron. Commitment runs both ways. That you would think yourself too good for a divorced friend makes me think they're lucky not to know you.
Lia at May 21, 2009 4:20 PM
What is REALLY going on here is the hubby overinflated sense of entitlement in the old cave man I work (for money) so I am entitled to get a "free ride" at home bs.
Also, He falsely reasons to himself "I need to impress and produce at work, but at home I am "king of the castle" ignoring the little people, that I have no need to impress."
Or my favorite, "I make the money" so that AUTOMATICALLY makes me, the man, a good husband, a good father, and again entitled to make no "endeavors" that really qualifies that self assigned statement of worth or exemption from any effort into THOSE (less worthwhile, in his mind) endeavors. Or to put it bluntly a misguided self asorbed jerk, freeloading on the family he is purporting to work so hard to "support".
Add in a good dose of totally outdated and chavuastinic thinking and you have all the earmarks of how another self enttitled jerk made no contribution to society other than to have a job......you can bet he will grow to hold his money tight to his chest and I predict is already abusing his power....through it on his wife and kids.......So in reality just who is he working for?...HIMSELF........again a self asorbed jerk with an overinflated sense of his own self described worth and entitlement.
I am sure he thinks he has invented this "he who has the gold rules" standard.
This is emotional blackmail of the worst kind,and her "nagging" is really the inescapable death rattle of their marriage. She is being victimized for merely crossing his path.
Again, he seems incapable of showing any emotion even those which will benefit himself in the long run. Agreed, she should not have married this selfish loser.......nor given him the time of day......as he was more into self destruction than being a productive self. I think he is getting off way too lightly.
As for her nagging being what "made him this way" not buying it. I say if men finds it so annoying, get off their butt and do something other than use "I am being nagged" to excused lazy, and counter productive behavior at home.
Clearly I have never heard of a work place where there are NO expectations for performace...or deadlines, or rules of the game in order to survive it and get a paycheck. So how come his lazy is reserved for home? She clearly wasn't around nagging him into being a drinker the first time he "checked out" of reality was she, she just made the mistake of trying to help a fellow human being obviously in need of help.
This guy sounds like a habitual victim, preying on others to award him his due by default happenstance to cross his path.
My guess is he never really cleaned up his "drinking problem" but found a woman to mommy him enough to "feel entitled" to continue his self destructive path, he was on before she (his now wife) even came on the scene. He works so hard because one task in life is too much for him, as I know many men perfectly capable of doing both home and not home types work.
And to the out of touch poster who thinks bringing home the bacon is a certificate of entitlement to do nothing at home......grow up. Women work hard at home (many do both home and outside empolyment) to include all the traditional "male" housechores and then some.
I would guess this woman is doing her "girl" work and his man work too for the most part....he is a workalholic (meaning he lives only for his job) because it give him an excuse to be "off the hook" at home. He receives no gold points for being a grunt at home....(and by the way, where is her praise for all she does, and I bet she does it anyway, because she is the more responsible of the two, CLEARLY) .....because what he does contribute is the equililvent to the guy always hugging the water cooler at work.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 5:43 AM
I don't get the whole "praise" thing either. Praise him for what? Hiding out at work and making no effort at home. Who in their right mind praises that? Why give positive reinforcement for being an "escape artist".
It just gives him a bigger head that it is OK, to "ignore" his children, his wife, and throw his weight around. This is just going to add to the problem........it gives his "attitude" an ok.
You ever work at a place where they "praise" you or give you a paycheck for avoidance of responsibilities? Get real.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 6:16 AM
I wonder could he be such a "success" without her picking up his other responsibilities at home and with his offspring?
I suspect he "used her" support and coaching and praising to get that degree and so forth, and being the "giving" person that he sees himself as....entitled and "off the hook" to return the favor....now feels no sense of endebtness to her efforts (no doubt, ie returning to her his support on the homefront) now that he has "arrived" and is a big cheese (in his mind) making money instead of in a gutter somewhere.
He sounds like a world class people user. (again assumming from her complaints, she feels used and cheated).
She feels that way because that is EXACTLY what is happening. He isn't "recriprocating" her investment in him, or getting a fair return emotionally, for sure, coming back to her.
He is misguided and selfish on his end of her (or their childrens) needs being met. She made an unspoken but clearly implied pact with the wrong kinda guy, unfortunately.
We all do things and expect some kinda reward. Now he is arrogantly stating, "every man for himself", most unfairly.
He is now "cheating" the game by offering her no "emotional and other support"
I wonder if he would be such a "success" without her support.......or encouragement that she saw something "better" in him.
He has rewarded her "support" by giving her none towards "her life goal" of being a good wife and mom to him and the children they both created.
Looks like he "renigged" once he got high enough on the ladder of life to look down on her.
No wonder she feels "cheated", she was used and will continue to be so if she stays with this self centered jerk. (sorry to be so blunt).
This guy is a backstabber and I suspect he will continue to "use" up all she has to offer..while giving little in return as time goes by and he "get away" with it as she waits for him to recriprocate to her what SHE needs to become a success in HER life goal.
Sad...........so very sad.......but clearly he is more of a taker than a giver.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 7:00 AM
Three very long rants in a row, Mitzi...hmmm.
Read this:
Not exactly husband and father qualifications.
She now needs to make the best of what she has because she stupidly made babies with the guy.
Amy Alkon at August 29, 2010 7:09 AM
One more thing.......I am in a similiar boat,
where I was the "support staff" as my husband climbed the ladder of success (a good bit of the climbing was up my back) after 32 years of offering him "homefront" support.....to include ALL chores and responsibilities both traditionally male and female....and then some.
Finally upon HIS retirement he announced to me, if I didn't like his destructive and totally self centered and abusive behavior and drinking (he did return to it full force, as an excuse to check out from responsibilities, to ( me and family) I could get out.
So be warned........ We have plenty of money, but all we do is fight about WHO is entitled to any of it, and I wasted my whole life waiting for him to have "time" or enough money to recriprocate what me and his children needed.
This is how I have been rewarded, in our golden years. He too got so far up on the ladder of "success" he felt he could look down on me, cause he did it all himself don't you know.
He used up all I had to offer and in the end claim it all as "his".. home, money, exclusive rights to our children.
I was a fool to ever spend my life with such a "sweetie", till he got what he wanted. I also feel used and cheated...if he doesn't see the err of his ways now, trust me it will only get worse for you and your children.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 7:49 AM
The world is full of people that got married for the wrong reason, and many of those marriages turn into wonderful success stories......as people mature.
I know many people who married for all the right reasons with NO red flags, and run into all kinds of trouble as life and they change.
No one can really predict what will happen.....though agreed they are often "indicators". Not always.
I also know many people who "trick" and deceive their mates by hiding the faults...UNTIL they are married.
Even the poster admits "wrong reasons" right up front......the issue is they are married and have created children.......you have to work from where you are. That is what mature people do.
Plus, we don't know what she was rebelling from. It could be her own life situation at the time....we all make "mistakes" when young, or under some "duress". Not everyone has the luxury of making mature decisions, when they are young.
One bad decision, ON both their parts, does not however have to have such a devasting effect on their own children. It is time to "man up" to the reality of where they are NOW.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 7:57 AM
Unless someone was holding a gun to his head to get married and procreate....he is as responsible as she is for where there are NOW.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:00 AM
"She now needs to make the best of what she has because she stupidly made babies with the guy."
Was she artifically inseminated or was he there?
HE needs to realize what it will cost him in child support....and emotional damage to his children.
This has gone past the two of them. He needs a wakeup call.........life is not a playground, and children deserve better. He had NO problem taking from her emotionally or physically (sex) that created his "fatherhood" or success. She is not solely to blame here. Nor is she solely responsible to "fix" it.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:10 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1747699">comment from MitzyMitzi, she wrote me, he didn't, first of all, and I give advice for the real world. She/you can say he "should" and he "needs to" but that's not going to get a whole lot accomplished. Nor is huffing on (and on and on) about how he "had NO problem" blah blah blah.
Amy Alkon at August 29, 2010 8:13 AM
I did read that.....you overlooked his involvement in the "mistake". He did blank and she did blank and they (two) got married and made children. One plus one equals children. I can read.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:14 AM
Very "selfish" advice. For their childrens sake, they both need to take responsibility. He will through the courts if not to her BEFORE that happens. No wonder the world is such a mess.....She wrote to you for advice on how to AVOID such a bad outcome.......I am sure she already knew she could divorice the guy......perhaps she is looking to avoid that if at all possible, for her children sake.
Spoiled and selfish people do not suddenly improve their "act" unless there is a consequence of negativity if they continue it.
Rather than encourage her to stop nagging him to be a better man.......and he will be, is overly optimistic......he needs to know there is a very real consequence (other than silence) to his lack of "cooperation" in making life a good place for his children.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:20 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1747704">comment from MitzyMitzi, look, sorry that you married unwell. Ranting on my site about another woman isn't the solution. Nathaniel Branden, the self-esteem expert (probably the best there is) told me that people will tell you exactly what they're all about if you're willing to listen. Take responsibility for the choices you made instead of ranting about others' or my advice to them. Again, my advice is real-world advice, for a woman who was an idiot to 1. marry this man, and 2. to let herself get pregnant.
Branden's book you should read (better use of your time than posting, what, eight times here in a row now, in a long-ago entry surely nobody but me will read -- because I see your huffing and puffing in my software): The Art of Living Consciously: The Power of Awareness to Transform Everyday Life.
Bye now...do order it and get reading.
Amy Alkon at August 29, 2010 8:24 AM
I agree, no one wants nagged, but you can bet he is nagging her to put her and the children's needs on the shelf.......apparently he feels NO responsibility there.
I wonder if he has given any thought to how his life and financial success will be affected when he has to "under court order" give what he isn't giving now? It would be nice to imagine....the courts will hold them BOTH responsible for the care and upbringing of those children....which seems to be her main concern...how this is affecting the marriage being sustained, and the impact on the children..to his selfish ways.
Agreed it is she, not he, seeking advice......however it is all of them that will ultimately pay the price for his "withholding" emotional support to her and the children.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:28 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1747707">comment from MitzyEcho chamber, Mitzi. Read the book.
Amy Alkon at August 29, 2010 8:34 AM
I am sorry that you think marrying well is the answer to everything for everyone and cannot see that people and circumstances extend beyond the day the ceremony takes place.
The world is full of people that can be condemned in retrospect...for not "marrying well" it doesn't help solve the CURRENT problem......and it is in reality a society problem......I have read every marriage book, and self improvement book and sought much individual and couple counseling in an effort to understand not only my and my husbands "issues" and how those affect our children by to not in selfishness or faulty expectations, dump more children who are products of divorice on our world, nor create more welfare system dependants by reducing the impact of one persons selfishness over anothers.
DIVORICE and all its ensuing problems is NOT always the best answer to life's challenges.
I would hate to have been "counselled" by your attitude. Or to have to pay for such advice. How simplistic to say to any couple strtuggling to "make it work". Oh, you married poorly. Done. move on......what are your creditintials for such advice?
mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:36 AM
so in other words, anyone that does not suscribe to you mantra, need not post?
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:39 AM
Cato, I think it was,said a mouthful. When a high achiever at work comes in the house and goes catatonic, he is under heavy gunfire in the house.
Frankly I have NEVER seen a more "assuming" statement in my life. Many people achieve success at work....but are total washouts at home. Any one familiar with domestic abuse will say that what they the abusers "acheive" at work.... or on the outside (which is always easier)...belies how they handle the "stresses" at home. It is part of the abuse issue.......some of the posters here need to do some reading on that subject before they make statements of judgement.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:45 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1747713">comment from MitzyEcho chamber, Mitzi. Read the book.
Amy Alkon at August 29, 2010 8:53 AM
Dear Single mom, my best advice to you is to dismiss the advice you are getting here that you need to improve you. While self improvement is always in your best interest, it will NOT automatically improve your husbands outlook, that is harming the marriage. Those statements are entirely false for some personality types.
More "sucking up" to his ego needs (while dismissing your own needs") often compounds the problem........Many, many financially and emotionally abuse people will confirm that.
You do need to find a place of peace and fullfillment for the issues that are troubling you and your family. Unfortunately it seems people are more interested in selling you "enlightenment" books than truly feeling your pain or your childrens or helping you solve your current situation. People often only change when they are ready or have the proper motivation (not praise, but a negative consequence) . Like a reality check. Even then it often fails to be the "wake up" call needed.
Humming mantras isn't going to help you on your journey...........to save your marriage as it stands now..I would post somewhere where you actually will get advice that can help the situation you are dealing with.
This is a complicated issue of needs, wants, vs selfish behaviors......kissing up to them (selfish and misguided spouses)isn't always the answer. As you have found neither is nagging...it just gives him something to 'resist" this is HIS immaturity in that you even HAVE to ask or nag or point out the obvious. We both know he won't "do it" on his own and therein lies the problem, and more than likely why you resorted to repeat asking, resulting in the nagging.
This is not working and making you more irritated at both of you. But trust me backing off the asking will get you nowwhere either, irregardless of what you are being told. I think you already know that.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 8:59 AM
Let herself get pregnant.
Now maybe you need to read how babies come to be. Usually it is TWO people engaging in sex. She didn't impregnate her self....Geeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 9:04 AM
I will ask again, what are your credentials for your "qualified" advice to this poster? Can't you read ALL of the post?
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 9:07 AM
Bythe way, by all outside "judgements" of my husbands worth.......and such I married very well.
He was
Not a drinker (that I ever saw when dating)
Had one then two high level professional jobs
Had a college degree
Came from a well known and respected family
Provided good financial support
(the greed came later)
A perfect gentleman on our dates
Ten years older, and seemed very mature and stable
Promoted himself as a family man
Was a war veteran
Very intelligent and "worldly".
By all "outside" appearences...and self proclaimed "worth", he was the "ideal" mate.
Immediately after a "short" courtship.....things began to pop up or change.
It isn't like he was WAVING the red flags all over the place.
In retrospect I see that "mistakes" were made, on BOTH our parts AFTER the marriage , that would have easily escaped even the most "enlightened" female.
A tomato can be fine on the OUTSIDE, and the rotten inside remains hidden. Same of people. Life has a way changing or exposing that which is NOT always obvious.
I am still waiting for you to post your credentials. Since you got out the "big guns" and tried to hit me and the original poster over the head with a "book" that has all the answers.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 9:33 AM
"Take responsibility for the choices you made instead of ranting about others' or my advice to them."
And just what do you know about me, that indicates I haven't "taken responsibility" and what part of this poster "taking responsibility" for her choices have you missed.
Where are your creditentials.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 9:46 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1747730">comment from MitzyBy all "outside" appearences...and self proclaimed "worth", he was the "ideal" mate. Immediately after a "short" courtship.....things began to pop up or change.
Short courtship -- extremely unwise. Nothing "changed" -- people are able to hide things in a short period of time, to put on party manners. He revealed who he really was.
Also, I'm guessing you weren't looking to see the negatives -- most people don't. As I always advise, you need to look for and know exactly all the person's downsides and know if you can live with them before you commit to them. It isn't their great sense of humor or how great they are in bed that breaks people up.
Again, instead of ranting at me over and over and over again for advice which I still stand behind -- because it's what makes sense in terms of motivating a man, as oppposed to threatening him (which creates an environment and feelings of hostility), accept the blame for marrying a man on wishful thinking, and try not to do it again in the future.
I knew every thing "wrong" with my boyfriend before I got serious with him.
My credentials are that I've read the entirety of psychology (from Freud to Perls to Albert Ellis and beyond), and attend the conferences and read the journals of Ph.D.'s in the field and that I give far better advice than most therapists you'll ever see. I'm in the business of solving people's problems using reason and science -- and doing it right away -- not in earning a living by having them come back to whine and blame over and over and over again (much as you and others seem to prefer that to taking responsibility).
Don't assume a degree in psychology makes a therapist good. Albert Ellis himself told me to not bother getting one. He greatly respected my work. (He's dead now, but was, with Aaron Beck, the founder of cognitive behavioral therapy.)
As for a review of the science in my work, there's a rave coming out in a science journal in September, and here's a review, by Dr. Satoshi Kanazawa, of London School of Economics, from the journal Evolutionary Psychology that was cross-posted on PsychologyToday.com:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201001/applied-evolutionary-psychology-its-best
Luckily, I don't subscribe to the nonthink that asks for "credentials" as a way of avoiding thinking and judging whether there's value to a person's work, or I would've wasted half a decade getting a Ph.D.
Your posts here are all about your anger and grief at your fucking up and marrying a guy on a whim. Admit it, accept it, learn from it, and move on instead of attacking me.
Amy Alkon at August 29, 2010 9:47 AM
Are you a "self proclaimed" Goddess. Me thinks that says it all.
Mitzy at August 29, 2010 9:48 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1747732">comment from MitzyCan't you read ALL of the post?
I didn't read all of your posts because they were long and boring and largely irrelevant.
I just saw that in the one at the bottom. I read your comments in my software, because they're on an old post, so I see them in between a lot of other comments.
Look, I feel sorry for you, but go get the book and read it. Attacking me for what's legitimately good advice, whether you want to admit it or not, is not getting you anything but worn-out fingers.
Amy Alkon at August 29, 2010 9:49 AM
So you are a self proclaimed "expert" I should have suspected as much. And just how many marriages "saved" do you have to your credit?
I am not angry at you, the poster, nor did I strike at you FIRST. I merely stated MY opinion on what the issues may be, and objected to praising... the obvious fuck up........on his part or your blantant mistreatment of the poster to put all the blame for the "problem" on her or me for the issues we both face in our marriages by someone taking a SHARP right turn when faced with the realities of the present.
Yes, men in particuliar are ego oriented. Men often become so egotistical they make bad choices. I will not necessairly agree that a long courtship exposes all personality flaws in someone, often it takes many years of marriage at totally different enviroment than dating to do that, there is something "got ya" about marriage, (and starting a family for some) that no matter how long the courtship, that takes many people by surprise.
Many major changes in life...Marriage...birth of children.....trying to make a living and family.....retirement etc. have to be present to "see what people are made of".....it is just to simplistic to simply state or condemn people for "not marrying well".
My anger comes, if indeed it is coming across, is not at MY situation...in whole ...but at the poor and easily judgemental advice that proclaims all the obvious "pitfalls" are to be avoided by marrying well. Only with a crystal ball into the future can the "pitfalls" be avoided entirely.
This is nothing more than easily done armchair quarterbacking "from a safe distance". Anyone can do that.
If it were that simple the divorice rate would decline drastically as FEW people would even bother to marry or attempt to salvage a good marriage going or gone bad. Which unfortunately in the "selfish" and judgemental society many are choosing to do.....as NO one has a crystal ball into the future......when they Do marry.
What I felt this woman wanted, and why I chose to post, was empathy, understanding, truly helpful advice, and to NOT get the same old judgements of her only .......she was getting at home. She truly seems to want CHANGE........for the sake of the marriage and children.........her not "nagging" isn't the ONLY answer to the problem.
If the guy was complaining how he never gets promoted at work.....or they didn't give him his check........for doing nothing to EARN it...would you tell him there there..you're a wonderful guy doing all you can? Or would you "nag" him to make and effort.......for what he wants. HMMMMMMMMMMM.
Agreed neither her nagging nor shutting up and praising his lack of effort is the answer. Why jump all over her admitted mistake........and think that is giving her what she needs for change. Talk about being a hypocrite. Leave her some self respect for at least caring enough to try ANYTHING........and reaching out.
Aren't you "nagging", ragging and judging and condemning her (and me). Maybe you should follow your own advice, cause I see nothing Positive in your attitude towards her problem or anything I have posted... I have never felt such hostility from a so called "expert" on advice..
You think people come her to be condemned or reduced by your negativity? Practicing what you preach must not be important to you. Where is you praising the poster for admitting her mistakes, being a source that allowed this man to become a success......or caring about her marriage and children..all you have done is put her down and nagged her efforts to have a better marriage in spite of its rocky beginnings.
I will be happy to provide you a list of books you might consider reading but you seem so set in your being RIGHT, I doubt it would do you any good.
mitzy at August 29, 2010 10:27 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1747764">comment from mitzyAnd just how many marriages "saved" do you have to your credit?
Quite a few (and I'm also the Dr. Kevorkian of quite a few -- when they don't have children). But, that's as far as I read in your post. Perhaps you should get a blog of your own instead of posting comments here that will never be read. And read that book so you can stop ranting and blaming and start living.
Amy Alkon at August 29, 2010 10:39 AM
Perhaps you should not masquerade as an "expert" on anything except extreme narcissism. You are abusive to people that post, and extremely arrogant.
Perhaps you should invest some of your time in acquiring the proper credentials instead of practicing without a license, as it appears you have a lot to learn about giving advice, (not to mention people skillls). What you are ingaging in, in fact is nothing more using the internet, to "set" in judgement on people with "real world" issues, or sell books.
You, can not even practice what you preport to preach. And sweetie I have a life, much more fullfilling and don't need a blog to "sit in high judgement" of my fellow man, looking down my nose at them. Maybe you should go outside and smell the flowers instead of spending all your time giving poor, rude and abusive advice to those who happen across YOUR path. You need a counselor to help you see your narcissistic disorder and abusive ways are NOT helping you or anyone else. Unbelievable.
mitzy at August 30, 2010 4:45 AM
So apparently you block anyone who dares to challenge your "expert" advice?
Mitzy at August 30, 2010 4:47 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2009/04/beating-a-dad-h.html#comment-1748050">comment from MitzySo apparently you block anyone who dares to challenge your "expert" advice?
Mitzi, I realize you're really upset that you married at whim and it turned out badly for you (as it so often does for those who live by wishful thinking instead of reasoning), but does it occur to you that I haven't blocked you, despite the fact that you're using the end of this old entry as your own personal rant/therapy section, and attacking me?
Mitzi, go read that book!
PS Like the rest of your wild and silly accusations, this one's pretty hilarious. This is a free speech site, and known that way to its regular commenters. Even the biggest assholes don't get blocked. But, I do resent you turning this into your own personal therapy section.
If you don't think I give good advice, go away.
The late Albert Ellis about me: "I find her to be much saner than all the therapists I know."
Maybe you can go leave comments by his gravestone about what an idiot he was.
A better idea: read his book How to Control Your Anger Before It Controls You and/or seek out therapy at his institute: http://www.rebt.org/
They have a list of therapists around the world. Those who had advanced training have a * by their names.
Amy Alkon at August 30, 2010 5:55 AM
Great Post, thanks for the great Post. I will come back later _ Great information : achieve success
Mauricio Bobzien at October 13, 2010 4:53 PM
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