Less Is Amour
I had a disturbing conversation with this older married woman at a party. She asked my boyfriend how long we've been together (two years). Before he went to get us drinks, he made a crack about how different our apartments are. The moment he was out of earshot, she turned and lectured me that if you don't live together, you don't experience "really hating each other," and that getting through that is "the triumph of true love." I said I didn't see it that way, and that we might never live together. She then snapped that perhaps I'll someday "grow up and have a real relationship!" Well, my boyfriend and I love each other, but don't see moving in together as an automatic next step. By living separately, are we really missing out on some higher level of relationship?
--Naive?
The course of true love doesn't always run smooth, but must it really run around the house waving a frying pan and screaming obscenities?
People romanticize living in close proximity to other human beings. The truth is, humans are smelly, annoying, and leak a lot. They're often lazy and pick fights over the littlest things. Anybody who's ever been around another human knows this, but for many, being in a grown-up relationship involves understanding human nature but living in total denial of it: expecting your partner to still look longingly at you when you pick dead skin off your toes and collect it in a little dish.
Mrs. Socrates here wears her misery like a Girl Scout badge -- whichever one they'd give you for spending decades sitting silently across from your supposedly beloved at Denny's. The reality? Maybe she's a little long in the tooth and light in the Botox to compete with the hot young things in bars. Maybe she only feels like somebody as Mrs. Somebody. And, chances are, it never occurred to her that there's an alternative to living like two hens in a pen. But, there's no going back now, only snarling at happy young women at parties that they, too, might someday experience "the triumph of true love." Which, for her, plays out as "Never go to bed angry. Stay up and try to commit murder-suicide."
Sure, many couples prefer living together, or, in this economy, prefer it to living separately in their cars. And, if you have kids, it's best if you can say "Wait till your father gets home" instead of "I'll give your father a call and see what he's doing tonight." If you do end up living together, it helps if you each have a room of your own, where house rules don't apply -- providing you don't break any marriage vows or fire laws. Of course, it helps even more if you're both exceedingly easygoing, lobotomized, or comatose.
The reality is, you greet a guy way differently when you've had a chance to miss him than when he's always there missing the toilet. Living apart also means you're more likely to act like you're still in the pursuit phase: trying to be witty and interesting and dressing suggestively when he comes over, and not in a way that suggests you're halfway through cleaning out the garage. As for Mrs. S's notion that you can hate your way to true love, researcher John Gottman found that expressions of contempt are actually the most poisonous to a relationship. In other words, the path to true love might be a bit of a drive: whatever it takes so your boyfriend isn't always in your face, doing whatever it is you'd gnaw off your right hand to have him stop doing -- like breathing, chewing, and having large pores.
Right on the money, Amy. It gets a bit disheartening to be waiting for your honey to come home from work, with everything nice and clean and pretty around the apartment, only to see the look of "Wow!" shift into "You're still here?"
Darkwinter at February 17, 2010 12:42 AM
She's entitled to her opinion on cohabiting relationships; you're entitled to yours. Hardly worth a fight. Imagine if the topic was the Redskins vs the Ravens. You wouldn't get offended and question your judgement just because someone disagreed with you.
Shannon at February 17, 2010 1:07 AM
She's entitled to her opinion on cohabiting relationships; you're entitled to yours. Hardly worth a fight. Imagine if the topic was the Redskins vs the Ravens. You wouldn't get offended and question your judgement just because someone disagreed with you.
Shannon at February 17, 2010 1:07 AM
It would have been interesting also to read what you would have said had Mrs. Smartypants herself had written you. Quite sure you would have let her have it for the self-righteous busybody that she is.
What is it to her how someone else is living their lives and enjoying their relationship? I suspect that her resentment is sharp because she's thinking she probably could have avoided all the pitfalls in her own relationship had she tried what the LW has shown to be successful.
Patrick at February 17, 2010 1:15 AM
Sounds like that older married lady is one nasty piece of work. Some people aren't satisfied until they get everybody to hate their lives as much as they do.
LW, it's up to you and your boyfriend how your relationship goes, and you certainly don't need instructions from bitter people on what path to take. Also, as Shannon points out above, if their "advice" isn't worth hearing to begin with, I wouldn't expend the effort to take it personally, either.
By the way, is anybody else tired of the phrases "taking the next step" or "taking it to the next level" as regards relationships?
One more: Shannon, while I agree with your comment, don't ever pollute a sentence with any reference to the Baltimore Ravens. To this 'Skins fan, that's almost as bad as uttering the name of that team in Texas!
old rpm daddy at February 17, 2010 5:39 AM
LW should avoid unhappy people, and certainly not take advice from them. The next one I meet that is worth my time will be the first.
MarkD at February 17, 2010 6:43 AM
My husband and I are mutants, I guess. Or separated at birth or something.
It'll be twenty years in April. We're a couple of overweight, out-of-shape codependent enablers with the same vices and perverse sense of humor, and I keep telling him it'll never work.
During the last two decades I have stopped being Suzy Homemaker and I compare our living style to a couple of fratboys. Thank gods we have no children.
No real reason for all this, I just wanted to let you guys know that there are some happy couples out there who can live together and really, really LIKE each other as well as love each other, despite our many flaws. Don't know how long it will last as we get older and crankier, but for now we still marvel at our luck.
Pricklypear at February 17, 2010 7:35 AM
As a rule of thumb, people who'll assault you with their wisdom in this way are typically a little off.
It may be that this woman was deliberately trying to upset the LW. I've noticed that older women often resent younger women, and it's expressed with this sort of behavior.
Jerry P. at February 17, 2010 7:45 AM
God, I've been hearing this crap for ten years now. My boyfriend and I have never lived together, and never will. We're both too stubborn and independent and would probably break up if we had to decide what color to paint the living room.
I hate it when people stick their nose in your business and act like there's something wrong with you because you didn't follow the Life Script. One example: my boyfriend and I go to the same dentist and have for the last several years, and one of the office workers STILL tries to wrap her little mind around why we don't move in together and don't get married. She absolutely cannot figure out why anyone (a woman, especially, I've figured out) would be happy with our arrangement. Hey lady, it's worked for TEN YEARS. It ain't broke, don't try and fix it.
My advice to the LW is to just ignore that idiot woman. Misery does love company, and apparently this woman is actively recruiting. If marriage works for you, great, but not everyone is cut from the same cloth.
Ann at February 17, 2010 8:27 AM
It may be a rumor, but I've heard couples who live together first have higher divorce rates.
NicoleK at February 17, 2010 8:32 AM
You heard right NicoleK. A co-worker of mine lived with her boyfriend for five years, no problem. I'm not sure why they decided to get married. (She did tell me he his main hope was that she wouldn't get "weird" on him, whatever that means.)
It lasted a year. I guess she got weird on him. They got divorced, and the relationship ended completely.
Pricklypear at February 17, 2010 9:04 AM
Really hating each other is the path to true love? Geez, to think that my husband and I have been doing it wrong for twenty years. We've lived together for 18 years, been married for nearly fifteen, and we've *never* hated each other. Heck, we've never yelled at each other. We still want to hang out with each other, and enjoy being alone together more than being with anyone else we can think of.
But we've never gone through hating each other, so I guess it isn't really love.
Dana at February 17, 2010 9:20 AM
The first thing I said was "Sounds like someone wants to make sure that everyone is just as miserable as she is".
brian at February 17, 2010 9:59 AM
Dana, it's nice to know my husband and I aren't the only freaks out there. The only times we've fought have been over the best way to do something, like shampooing the rug or something stupid like that. Fortunately, we're both capable of apologizing.
Really though, I have known of several happy couples that change once they go through the legalities. Maybe it's some chemical thing.
Pricklypear at February 17, 2010 10:08 AM
There are some people who just can't live with someone else without destroying the relationship. I wish I'd realized sooner that I'm one of those people.
Rex Little at February 17, 2010 11:10 AM
Ann, your story about the dental office worker reminded me of a story. I've only lived with one boyfriend, and that's been over for years now, but back when we were together and sharing a place, we still kept our finances separate. We lived at his place, so I'd just write him a small check each month to cover my share of the utilities and whatnot, and we did our grocery shopping separately. One time we were in the grocery store, each having our groceries rung up separately, and this crabby little old Asian lady started haranguing my boyfriend to pay for all the groceries. She was so serious, and also so itty-bitty, that it struck me as incredibly funny. She was, like, the soup nazi's wife or something. I don't know what it is that compels complete strangers to spout unrequested relationship advice, but what can you do.
Pirate Jo at February 17, 2010 11:28 AM
I sure hope Pirate Jo doesn't live in Syracuse...
Just kidding, Mrs D is in no way crabby.
MarkD at February 17, 2010 1:28 PM
'Man should pay!' 'Man should pay!' God, it still makes me laugh. I mean, ya know, she has a point. Maybe I'd still be with that guy if there had been free groceries involved ... hmmm ...
Pirate Jo at February 17, 2010 1:31 PM
Short answer: If something works for you (and it's reasonably close to legal), don't let someone browbeat you out of it just because it doesn't correspond to their idea of what social norms are, or ought to be.
Cousin Dave at February 17, 2010 2:52 PM
Shannon, everyone is absolutely entitled to his own opinion about relatioships, but no one has to try to convert everyone else to that opinion. Mentioning it once is disagreement; continually telling someone that he is wrong and that he must be as miserable as her to have a "real" relationship? Well, the LW was a hell of a lot nicer than I would have been.
NumberSix at February 17, 2010 8:47 PM
Pirate Jo, I think I might have cracked up right there in the store had that happened to me! That's hilarious!
Luckily I haven't run into that chick at the dentist's office the last couple times I was in there - the look of total disbelief on her face when I tell her no, we're STILL not getting married and no, we're STILL not living together is getting old. I've been going there for years now - get over it lady! She kind of looks at me like I've grown a second head, or something. I've been nice up to this point but I think if she brings it up again I'm going to have to ask her why it's any of her business and why she seems to be so concerned about it. Sheesh.
Ann at February 18, 2010 7:29 AM
Alot of people just like to stir up shit at parties - what´s interesting is how it bugged the LW enough to write. I hope she got some encouragement here to just live her relationship how it suits her. Dental technicians have to be among the most annoying breed of people, and they have you there captive. Has anybody ever noticed how they have such overprocessed hair usually?
zapf at February 18, 2010 10:39 AM
"when you pick dead skin off your toes"
Hiring those little fish to do that job can be a real relationship saver.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at February 18, 2010 12:54 PM
Fantastic advice, Amy. Maybe because it agrees with what I believe so well?
I have always been most comfortable with separate residences and if this couple is the same, the advice above by others is great too. Don't let people browbeat you about something that works.
John Tagliaferro at February 19, 2010 9:14 AM
It's a cultural myth that "togetherness" involves cohabitation with no boundaries or privacy.
I love having a place where no one else can barge in without notice, move my stuff around without telling me, hassle me over my housekeeping, interrupt me in the middle of a yoga session, or invite people over that I can't stand. But they still have a right to watch TV, smoke, play video games night and day, have annoying friends over, and fill their OWN house with metal car parts if that's what they really love to to.
Some people I've dated take it very personally if I leave their house because I'm not enjoying being there at that moment. It's like, "love me, love my TV habits". They want me to share some activity with them that I don't enjoy, and think that if we aren't exactly alike in every taste, that this somehow means that our relationships is doomed. That's the cultural myth at work again.
As you can tell, I hate TV. But it's not a crime to watch it. People have every right to do things that I don't enjoy doing myself… elsewhere.
vi at February 19, 2010 3:19 PM
I have more and more beautfull ladies, but will I ever one for my life to.
Or its becouse I am ablack African, coz all I've aproched don't date Africans.
What could be the reason?.
Kennedy at February 20, 2010 7:43 PM
I don't see the column that just ran in today's (Sunday) paper, but your advice on the "Fatty Patty" was rude, condescending, and a far cry from someone who calles herself an "advice goddess" should be doling out. YOUR opinion on the weight loss regime is that - your opinion. Who's to say it's more valid than someone else's? Next, you basically called the girl a fat loser with no self control. I'm not about advocating that people with 40 extra pounds go deluding themselves into thinking they're healthy, but your answers were rude, unprofessional, and smack of a self righteousness (as "haha you f'ing fat slob stop diving your pig snout into the haagen daaz and wondering why your man left you") is a mean girl trait that I've never heard come from you before (and that's saying something).
You just lost a reader and a fan, and I will happily badmouth you to anyone who brings up "advice columnists" and certainly will never buy your book. I would not be friends with, or include anyone in my social circle who found it fine, as a public "advice doler" to call someone who came to you with a genuine problem that stmes far more than her inability to keep her "snout" out of the ice-cream, Fatty Patty and so on.
With today's ease of access to unhealthy & CHEAPer foods, hectic lifestyles, and emphasis on being model-thin do women really need some self-righteous snot putting her nose in the air and looking down at all overweight people?
I lost about 50 pounds after my child was born, and it was HARD. Encourage those people rather than validating that they're nothing more than fat losers who don't deserve to have their biologically inclined male show public affection because she's "put on the size of a tent".
I see rude people indeed.
amy at February 21, 2010 11:20 AM
That's a lot of venom, and off topic too. I didn't read the column you're referring to, but I think anyone who would write to Amy - assuming they've ever read her columns - wants the hard truth served to them straight up. Often, the truth hurts, but it can also be much more helpful than being coddled and told everything's not your fault and therefore not really under your control.
And Amy isn't being rude since she was directly asked for this advice. It's not like she's running over and calling some stranger "fat". That would be rude, but when she's ASKED for advice, Amy will deliver it without mincing words or tip-toeing around the heart (or fat) of the issue.
lovelysoul at February 21, 2010 12:22 PM
That column will be posted here in a few weeks, and lovelysoul is exactly right. I say the stuff nobody else will tell you -- tell you the truth, that while people believe men "should" like a woman for her personality, no matter how fat she gets, they will not.
I also put out the evidence-based science on how easy it is to lose weight if you cut out flour, sugar, and starchy carbohydrates like potatoes.
Nobody needs to be fat, or to pretend that fat is attractive to more than a few people with odd preferences. Women are judged by their looks -- it's in our genes -- same as men are judged by whether they have status and earning potential. You could say you "should" want to be with a guy simply because he has a good heart, but if he's lazy and unambitious, you, as a woman, have a genetic propensity to look elsewhere.
Your friends will tell you "He should love you no matter what!" and they will be the ones keeping you company after your boyfriend or husband leaves you for a woman they find attractive. As I said in that column, male lust seems to have a weight limit. Sorry it does, but it does.
As for not reading my column anymore, you've read me making fun of irrational people and people who behave stupidly for quite some time. Why are fat people off-limits, and are there other off-limits people?
Somebody should tell women -- and it's me in this case -- that not doing the very best you can with what you have will likely mean that you diminish your chances with men, and with getting the best possible man.
P.S. I make fun of myself plenty, and find it hilarious when my boyfriend asks me (referring to my ADHD, for which I take medication), "Do I have your divided attention?"
My friend John Callahan, who is a quadriplegic cartoonist, frequently made fun of quadriplegics. He'd get angry letters from able-bodied people who had no idea he was a quad telling him he was horrible, and letters from quadriplegics thanking him for treating them like everybody else.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 12:51 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/02/less-is-amour.html#comment-1696860">comment from Amy AlkonOh, and I'll post a blog item with and about this exchange, probably tomorrow.
PS Amy, who posted above, lovelysoul and I disagree on many issues, but this is something my commenters on this site have in common and I love it -- they are not lockstep partisans, like so many are out there, but call it as they see it on individual issues. I really respect that, even if I disagree with them on what they say.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 12:58 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/02/less-is-amour.html#comment-1696861">comment from Amy AlkonAn e-mail from a man about this same column:
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 1:03 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/02/less-is-amour.html#comment-1696863">comment from amyYOUR opinion on the weight loss regime is that - your opinion. Who's to say it's more valid than someone else's?
Regarding this above, my "opinion" on how to lose weight isn't worth a damn. What is is my opinion based on actual evidence-based science. As I pointed out in that column, Americans have been sold a bill of goods on diet by much of the medical and "research" establishment, based on hearsay-based rather than evidence-based dietary medicine.
A friend of mine ate the way the science directs (per my recommendations in that column), and lost 17 lbs in a month, sans exercise, and had his blood pressure go from high to almost normal. He continues to lose weight eating almost no carbs.
Go here -- http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ -- as directed in the column, and you won't have to maintain completely unrealistic beliefs so many women do (like that men will lust after you no matter what you weigh, simply because they "should"). As for what you "deserve," you can be the most wonderful woman in the universe, and spend your life repairing developing-world children's cleft palates, but that won't make a guy look across the room at you and want to fuck you. Sorry that it won't, but it won't. Use that information or ignore it, but it's the truth.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 1:16 PM
Funny, I'm making spaghetti squash right now because I've realized I can't eat many carbs, which means no pasta. My fiance sometimes teases me about my no-carb diet, but I think he also appreciates that I take care of myself and, by extension, him. He does the same for me - works out and eats well. We have an amazing sex life, but I doubt we would if either of us gained 40 pds. That won't happen though because we have so much respect for each other, and ourselves.
We just got back from a cruise too, and that took some self-control. While everyone was piling their plates full of sweets and 3 or 4 entrees, I was getting my daily salad at the buffet line. And I was wondering don't these people care that they'll probably put on 10 pds this week? It's a lot easier to keep a few pds off by being sensible than lose 10 or 20 pds you gain by gorging.
And, I'm sorry, the truth is like Amy tells it. You don't just gain 40 pds accidentally. Even with pregnancy, that isn't an excuse. It usually happens because women are plain overeating. I gained 40 pds with my son because I was "celebrating" my pregnancy, and I thought I should "eat for two". I clearly remember my gyn telling me that wasn't baby weight, it was MY weight...which I had to lose afterwards. Thank God I was only 26, and it fell off pretty quickly once I started eating "for one" again, but I learned that lesson and ate healthy foods during my next pregnancy, only gaining 20 pds or so. Women use the "baby weight" excuse far too much.
lovelysoul at February 21, 2010 1:37 PM
Sometimes saying it like it is, unvarnished truth, isn't being an "advice goddess". It's being a bitch.
I'm not overweight, but I do have sympathy for anyone trying to lose weight. It's not as simple as just sheer willpower. Your answer to her, since she sounds rather weak to begin with, will probably validate that she's a loser (in life, not in weight) and drive her straight into the fridge.
I just find it amusing that you vilify all the 'so-called doctors' on Oprah or Dr. Phil or whatever but you tout your own scientific evidence. Just that I happen to agree with you on this matter (I lost the post baby weight - THAT I GAINED B-C I ATE TOO MUCH by a low carb diet, it's the only thing that works for me) doesn't validate your opinion over what diets work for others.
But women who are holding down FT jobs, kids (picky eaters), keeping hubby happy and hoping to God that the economy doesn't turn further or their house value doesn't decline further often eat out of convenience and costs - how about a better discussion that HELPS her, empathizing that eating healthy might take more planning but can be done - rather than validating that she's a fat loser with her snout in the ice cream who obviously has no willpower and why not just NOT eat that crap and her bf will love her again.
Imagine how anyone who's gained MORE than 40pounds (and just take a walk down the street and you'll see plenty of them!) feel - not like going out for a jog.
For someone who claims to work with doling out advice to people who ask for it this one was just beyond the pale IMHO.
Before anyone gets all uppity and says "well she needed to hear it, the fat pig" or "don't ask for advice if you can't handle the truth" how about a helpful conversation about how 1) bad for you food tastes good 2) food is a social event 3) our lives revolve a LOT around food 4) crap food is cheap and addicting and tastes good (did I mention it's cheap and easy?) 5) our enviornments are set up to be lazy (driving everywhere, busy lives etc) & how to cope. And fine the guy doesn't like junk in the trunk & she doesn't need someone patting her on the head saying "being thin is hard!" and thus giving her reason to say it's beyond her control, but GEEZ how about constructive instead of calling her a fat, tent-dressed, pig?
If I was the perfect person I'd speak 4 languages and craft homemade furniture out of the recycled tears of angels but I'm not - and neither was she.
Amy at February 21, 2010 1:54 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/02/less-is-amour.html#comment-1696873">comment from AmyCall it what you wish, but somebody needs to make the point, and make it in an explicit way, that male lust seems to have a weight limit -- and the best way to do that is with stark talk and visuals that get people to see it like it is.
The woman wasn't weak - she was really cool. I think that comes through in the question. She didn't have low self-esteem, far as I could tell (and I'm good at that at this point), and she didn't want the coddling that you and a number of other angry women suggest I should have provided her with. She thanked me for what I told her: the truth, the kind that will at least allow her to have the best shot at attracting as wide a number of men to choose from as she can.
I hate writing columns about this topic, truth be told, because I get these angry e-mails from women like you. I just got one with this bit of advice for the woman in it:
"A woman, no matter what size she is, is infinitely more attractive if she truly loves herself and the way that she looks."
Uh, sorry - gain 40 pounds, and you can love yourself and your looks to pieces, but don't be surprised when your boyfriend is repelled by your size.
The truth is, she pigged out for two years straight. She needs to have some self-control. I said so. In plain terms. That's how I write to irrational people and fat people alike.
You clearly didn't read my column in its entirety. Steak tastes great and if you eat it alone for a month, you'll probably drop 20 or more pounds. Weight loss is not hard if you eat according to the science. Should I say that one more time? Read Taubes, go to Eades' blog, take control instead of spewing anger at me for telling the truth as I do every week.
If I were the perfect person, I'd be able to remember whether I put deodorant on 15 seconds before, but I have a mind like steel sieve. I could pretend that I don't, but then I wouldn't run a timer on my phone whenever I put food on the stove, and then I'd be dead or homeless, because my house would have burnt down years ago.
She is fat, although I didn't call her a tent-dressed pig -- that wouldn't be funny. Why is it wrong to call a fat woman a fat woman and to say that she'd put the weight of a 5-year-old about to outgrow his car seat. She did. And, as I said in the column, that's not going up a dress-size, it's going up a tent size. This combats all the "there, there" thinking of "you're not so fat" -- which is a lie. 40 pounds extra weight on a woman, except if she's with a guy who has a fat fetish, is probably boyfriend repellant.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 2:31 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/02/less-is-amour.html#comment-1696874">comment from lovelysoulLovelysoul writes: "Funny, I'm making spaghetti squash right now because I've realized I can't eat many carbs, which means no pasta."
Here's a woman who takes a realistic approach -- not saying her fiance should love her no matter what, but making an effort to look attractive for him.
I'm guessing lovelysoul would probably trade that spaghetti squash for a plate of buttered gnocchi in a hot second, but we can't have it all, and she apparently wants to have this man in her life and have him remain hot for her.
Note the words "respect for each other." You respect your partner in a number of ways, but a very important one is caring about their needs and attending to them. You can't attend to them if you deny them, and so many women deny the reality of male sexuality, I'm compelled to write these columns telling the truth about how men feel about fat when I know I'll get a lot of women raging mad at me, because ultimately, women will be happier if they stop acting according to how men "should" be and behave according to how men actually are.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 2:36 PM
I feel that you did not add constructively to the conversation by insulting her and if saying 'her snout' isn't calling her a pig then obviously I misread.
I'm a vegetarian, by moral choice, not because I don't like meat, I love it, but eating a steak is not great, and eating low carb while not eating meat is even more difficult, but it's the tool I found that happens to work for me. For other people other approaches are successful.
I didn't say, and spelled out clearly, that the woman did NOT need to be mollified by saying she's 'not that fat'. Maybe tough love works for her, but you had to know that and it did not come across that way to readers reading the column or that you were able to discern that she's a big girl (not literally in this case) and could handle it. I'm saying that your response may have tipped an insecure person looking for some straight talk (otherwise she wouldn't have written you or called Dr. Laura, I get it, I get it) but how about telling her what you told me in these responses - so much more humane than calling her a fat pig (insinuated) and that it all can be magically solved by just resolving her will power.
Maybe you were just limited by the length of the column in the print version, but cutting out the insults you could have added 2 sentences that said it in a way that actually motivated someone rather than sending them into the "Amy's right; I'm a fat pig and don't deserve my boyfriend."
Amy at February 21, 2010 2:56 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/02/less-is-amour.html#comment-1696884">comment from AmyAmy, that's my style. Beyond the fact that every column I write is also a humor column, I feel it's most constructive (as does addiction treatment specialist Stanton Peele, who I respect greatly) that I essentially write in a modified form of "motivational interviewing" -- laying out the facts in a way that shows people how absurdly they're thinking and behavior.
YOU WRITE: "but cutting out the insults you could have added 2 sentences that said it in a way that actually motivated someone rather than sending them into the "Amy's right; I'm a fat pig and don't deserve my boyfriend.'"
But, that's not what I said. Nobody "deserves" another person.
She's very fat. Her boyfriend probably resents her for it and isn't attracted to her. She buys into the thinking that he "should" love her for who she is. He might care about her as a human being but he won't have to have sex with her and that isn't because he's a bad person. Why am I explaining this again?
I realized driving home that all the angry people are angry at me for telling the truth and stating it in visual terms. That's what I do. Whether you're irrational or whether you stuck your snout in a trough of Haagen-Dazs for two years. PS Actually I just remembered something! Guess where that snout things comes from? It's something I've been saying about myself! "It was time to shoot my book cover, but I'd just spent a month with my snout in a trough of Haagen-Dazs"... at this point, I took control, cut carbs for four days, and deporked. (This was March -- publisher gave us four days to get the cover shot done. Whoops! Out with Miss Piggy, in with Miss Twiggy, thank you bacon, bacon, bacon, eggs, hamburger and steak."
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 4:19 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/02/less-is-amour.html#comment-1696885">comment from Amy"and that it all can be magically solved by just resolving her will power."
Again, kindly read my column before posting angrily on it.
It can all be magically solved by eating bacon, eggs, hamburger, and steak, etc. Per the science.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 4:20 PM
Amy - you are the one not listening now - I said YOUR response made her FEEL as though she's unworthy and not deserving. How can you not see the difference there? Your reponse was, in my opinion, unhelpful and "mean girls". Not "telling it like it was" b-c you offered little constructive except "eat steak" and "use your willpower".
and what if she is a vegetarian? What if she can only afford bread, not bacon & steak?
Soooooo simplistic in these responses. I wasn't angry before, but now I am. Wow, enough of this asinine conversation. I'm sure you'll keep your niche in this world but don't count me a fan any longer.
amy at February 21, 2010 5:15 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/02/less-is-amour.html#comment-1696889">comment from amyHow do you know what my response made her feel? Are you a bug that's burrowed into her head? She wrote back to me at length, and seemed quite grateful at the truth/ass-kicking I sent her way. That's why people write to me. It's not like my thinking or style are a secret. It's just not PC to joke about. Well, I'm not PC and I joke about everything.
People who have food issues tend to tell me them in lengthy e-mail exchanges about diet. Vegetarianism is a bad idea, to say the least.
People have to eat huge quantities of nuts or legumes to match the nutritional value of meat "since the least abundant essential amino acids in plants are precisely the ones most needed by the human body," Gary Taubes told me when I interviewed him a while back.
Per Gary Taubes, per the exhaustive reading he's done of the body of research on diet (from the 1800s on, not just studies from last year): "Meat is the single best source of virtually every vitamin but vitamin C." (And it's possible that people who do not eat sugar and flour will have adequate vitamin C -- can't remember where I read that.)
The Inuit and Masai and others who ate all-meat diet were tons healthier than all those gray-skinned vegetarians you see in the health food store: "Another high colonic, Dear?"
PS Your colon isn't dirty and doesn't need cleaning.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 5:57 PM
Forgot about this: I wasn't angry before,
Oh, come on. You were in a white-hot rage before. I'm not PC. I don't talk PC. I don't write PC. That's why people with problems write to me. They want the hard truth, not the feel-good untruth dressed up in butterflies and flowers.
Amy Alkon at February 21, 2010 6:19 PM
Gaining weight while pregnant is normal, & every one of us is different. In my first pregnancy i gained 50 lbs, and was horrified as each pound went on, even though i was eating yogurt, dry breakfast cereal, & an otherwise healthy diet. The thing was, i was always hungry, & so i was always eating. Good thing i lead a fit & active lifestyle beforehand, & so when my baby was 3 months old, i gladly (& regularly) got on the treadmill & slowly lost all the excess weight. Same thing happened during my 2nd pregnancy, & so i didn't sweat it; i knew i would get on my treadmill & once again shed the extra weight, & i did.
The simple equation is & always will be that calories in must not exceed calories out. If they do, then you gain weight. The simple fact is that 99% of North Americans who are overweight, are overweight because they eat too much & too much of the wrong things, nothing more, nothing less.
Once a fat cell is created, it never disappears. Losing weight decreases the size of that fat cell, but it forever remains in your body & will gladly increase in size when you consistently overeat.
Many people wish to fool themselves into thinking that their fat state of being is due to this or that or the other, when, in fact, they are overweight because they contravened the chemical equation too many times. Getting off the couch & away from the tv is difficult to do, but once you adopt the habit of regularly working out, getting sweaty, & doing so several times per week, you will see the weight dropping off. It is not rocket science. You'll definitely look and feel better. Oh yes, and probably live longer too.
Bluejean Baby at February 21, 2010 7:52 PM
Wow, I forgot to read the comments section today, and look what happened while I was gone.
To Amy-the-Former-Fan:
First of all, why post your objections to a column under another column's comments? I don't know how they do things where you usually post, but here we like to refer to the text. Otherwise, you are just calling Amy out and we can't look at the column to comment. Next time, please wait to post until the column appears on this site.
Secondly, Amy Our Hostess is right, it is incredibly difficult to get the right balance of nutrients being a vegetarian. I typically hate to call myself that because I eschew meat only because it makes me gag, not for any sense of smug superiority. I have been avoiding meat for ten years now, and only in recent years have I found the right balance of protein while not eating too many carbs. You rag on Amy for her "opinions" (which are not opinions, but are more science-based than much of the "scientific" diets out there), but your statement that "steak is not great" is an opinion. To show you how far that anti-red meat thinking has penetrated, my grandmother's DOCTOR told her that red meat stays in your gut for three weeks. Red meat does take longer than other foods to digest, but it is out of your body after no longer than three days (otherwise, you have a major problem). Another problem with the thinking on red meat is that Americans tend to waaay overestimate how much protein they need. One serving of protein is about the size of a deck of cards, or two to three ounces. Even steaks you buy at the store are significantly larger than that.
Your claim that "bad" food tastes better than healthy food is also an opinion. I have found that eating real food, as opposed to processed junk, tastes better and makes me feel better. And you don't need as much of it to be satisfied. This comes from someone who has a sweet tooth the approximate size of Montana. Dessert made with real ingredients will satisfy you quicker than something overprocessed.
You just lost a reader and a fan, and I will happily badmouth you to anyone who brings up "advice columnists" and certainly will never buy your book. I would not be friends with, or include anyone in my social circle who found it fine
Wow, the fans are dropping like flies this week. I find it interesting that you would not be friends with someone who found it "fine" to give advice in a straightforward way. Only the smallest of minds and the most insecure of personalities are afraid to be around people with differing opinions. And, as Original Amy asked, why now, why this column (not THIS column, but one that none of us on the board have yet read)? You claim to have been reading Amy's columns for a long time, so why did this particular advice strike you as "self-righteous?" I read Amy's columns and blog for the same reason I watch and love "Family Guy": nothing is sacred. Funny is funny and rational is rational. Your response to the column in question speaks more about you than it does about the LW, who apparently was thrilled with her advice, because those are the people who write to Amy in serious need of advice. Hand-holders need not apply.
PS to Amy-the-Angry: Proofreading is your friend.
NumberSix at February 21, 2010 8:53 PM
Just a quick comment on the vegetarian thing, while I personally do not adhere to a vegetarian diet as I enjoy steak and chicken far too much to give them up, the truth is that those essential amino acids you are talking about can be obtained via means outside of nuts and legumes.
Many vegetarians have no issues consuming eggs which have a wide variety of essential amino acids that have very large bioavailability. In fact, gram for gram eggs provide more protein than steak or chicken (which is why body builders have so many of them to bulk up).
That being said I believe it is possible for a vegetarian to have a very healthy diet so long as they keep in mind that vegetables, fruits, nuts and legumes are often insufficient to achieve a balanced diet.
Kara at February 22, 2010 12:11 PM
Exactly, Kara, you just have to pay attention. It's not as easy to get everything you need if you don't eat meat. But, like any healthy way of eating, you have to know what you are putting into your body. While it was sort of hard for me to achieve the right balance in my diet, it was actually easier once I officially stopped eating meat, because I had to pay more attention to the nutrients I was (or was not) getting from my food. But I have found ways to make really delicious meals without relying too much on pasta and potatoes. Lunch today: Morningstar Farms Hot & Spicy "sausage" patties topped with steam-fried eggs and pea pesto. Yum!
NumberSix at February 22, 2010 12:43 PM
Thanks for posting that, Kara. I wanted to as well, but this column has gotten so off track already, I thought I'd leave it alone. I wish Amy wouldn't put down vegetarians. Most of those old nutritional myths about how much protein and amino acids we need have been debunked, and it's actually quite easy for vegetarians to get proper nutrition. Most studies show they are healthy, if not healthier. Deficiencies are extremely rare and, as you say, are mostly found in people with very restrictive versions of a vegetarian diet - those who don't eat eggs, for instance. After all, cows, chicken and pigs are vegetarians. Clearly, the proper nutrients and growth can be achieved on a plant-based diet.
lovelysoul at February 22, 2010 12:54 PM
Other Amy:
I have been fat, and as someone that has been there, let met tell you that you are wrong. The LAST thing I needed was yet another person trying to empathize and feel for me and tell me I'm ok and should love myself the way I am. No, that is the road to laying back and not doing the hard work.
What did I need, what does just about everyone need? A kick in the pants, that's what. It is hard as hell to lose weight, and mushy nice feelings will not get you through it. You should love yourself not as you are, but love yourself enough to change (that applies to more than just fat).
You say you are not fat, you seem like the caring sensitive friend that THINKS she is helping me, but really are holding me back undermining my progress. You mean well, but you need to sometimes be tough. Just like when we were kids and our parents disciplined us and it hurt, it didn't mean they didn't love us. Same for now, many of us fat folks are just too sensitive and need to buck up and get angry and fight, and need friends who are honest with us and will help hold us accountable and help us achieve our goals, not tell us "it's ok to quit, you need to feel good, you need to love yourself"
loving myself meant losing the damn weight, not feeling good. My self esteem is way higher without the weight than it was with it, not because people look at me differently (they do) but because I overcame a challenge and didn't keep on making excuses like all my "friends" told me I should keep doing.
It doesn't matter how busy you are, there are ways to do it with some research, convenience foods for different diets, 30 minute a day excercise videos. Anything and more is available.
cb at February 22, 2010 1:19 PM
I just read a few of the comments and now I'm not sure if I should comment on the comments or on the original topic! Of course a bit of digression is never a bad thing. Makes for interesting party talk.
Speaking of parties, my first impression was this woman hasn't been laid since....well since the last time a Cleveland team won a championship. (Sorry couldn't think of anything else)
Living together certainly is not a gateway to marriage. But if you do get married you'll probably end up living together. I like your idea of having your own room or space. Guys are especially good about claiming a room, but women need to be more assertive with this too!
But as far as the topic at hand. I say delay the living together AND the marriage part as long as possible.
One of The Guys at February 23, 2010 10:45 AM
My sister once asked her husband, "Would you still love me if I weighed 400 pounds?" He replied, "From a distance."
My husband and I still quote that to each other. And yes, my skinny, marathon-running (and long ago, overweight if not exactly fat) sister thought it was hilarious.
My dad, who was medically obese much of his life, lost over 90 pounds on a medically-supervised carb-free diet. This is a man who LOVED pasta and sourdough bread, but he decided that being healthy was more important than a big bowl of spaghetti.
Two more quick points:
1. I HATE it when people use the term "addictive" about food. Bad food is tasty. It's hard to give up. It is NOT addictive. I am a former drug addict, as are many of my close friends. We went through rehab, we went to meetings, we almost died fighting addiction. I saw people in rehab who couldn't walk, could barely speak, couldn't function until they went through detox. Giving up gnocchi does not cause you to puke, have seizures, etc. Okay, off that soapbox.
2. I am really sick of the "crap food is more expensive than good food" line. Yes, McDonald's is cheaper than the sashimi buffet. But you can buy brown rice in bulk at your health food store, giant packs of chicken breasts for 37 cents a pound at pound at Costco (I know because I do so every time they go on sale, and freeze them), and veggies at your local Safeway. They may not be organic, artisanally raised, and all that, but they're still better for you than a quarter pounder. The idea that you can fill up on junk food cheaper than brown rice and whatever veg is on sale that week is bullshit, and I'm sick of it.
Okay, now I'm off that soap box too . . .
anathema at February 24, 2010 9:39 AM
My sister once asked her husband, "Would you still love me if I weighed 400 pounds?" He replied, "From a distance."
Ha! That's great. I always say, don't ask the question if you don't want to know the answer. This reminds me of the recent Valentine's Day episode of "Modern Family." Jay (50/60-something grandpa) told Gloria (hot 30-something wife), when she asked if he would still love her if she got fat because she would still love him when he got old, "I have to get old. You don't have to get fat." I hate when people (okay, women) bait their boyfriends/husbands like that. I have asked people (friends and boyfriends) if something I am trying on does not look good on me, but I want an honest answer. Why would I want to buy pants that don't look good on me just because someone is afraid to tell me the truth? I make it clear to all my friends that, when I ask something like that, I really want to know.
NumberSix at February 24, 2010 7:31 PM
Add me to the list of low carbers -- almost 15 years now. I'd like to make a few important points about cost and convenience:
* If you're carbohydrate intolerant, pasta, potatoes, rice, and other carby junk wouldn't be cheap if they were giving it away. Nothing is cheap if it makes you fat, tired and sick.
* A lot of carby convenience food ain't cheap for what you get -- most frozen entrees aren't, nor is fast food. And I swear that cold cereal is a conspiracy to get people to spend $4 on 15c worth of grain.
* A low carb diet doesn't have to be expensive. I just had a chicken leg-and-thigh quarter for lunch; I bought 60 pounds worth when the went on sale for 59c/pound. I'll save the bones to make broth, and get a super-cheap pot of great soup out of it. My body doesn't care if I get my protein from rib eye or ground chuck, from lobster or canned tuna. Nor does it care if my vegetables are asparagus and raddichio, or cabbage and celery.
* Too, allocation of funds is individual. I won't pay price for department store make up or skin care, and buy a lot of my clothes at the Goodwill; I drive an eight year old car I bought used, and we sure don't own a flat-screen TV. But I'll be damned if I'll put garbage in my body.
* As for convenience, being fat, sick and tired is inconvenient. But it's no less convenient to buy a grilled chicken salad and an iced tea at the fast food place than it is to buy a burger, fries, and a Coke. An omelet can be made in 3 minutes, as I happen to know because I've done it in that time slot on television. A pork steak -- I stock up when they hit 99c/pound -- can be pan-fried in 8-10 minutes. And when people tell me they live on ramen because it's quick and easy, I ask them why it's easier and quicker to boil ramen than to boil a couple of eggs?
For that matter, my sister, a teacher and one of the busiest people I know, spends Sundays cooking a roast or double-sized meat loaf, plus a big batch of soup or chili. These form the basis of her meals for the week to come. Many rely on slow cookers.
It's a matter of what's important to you, that's all. If you really want to eat healthy, you will.
Dana at March 3, 2010 1:07 PM
lovelysoul, if you think chickens and pigs are vegetarians, you've never been around chickens or pigs. Both will eat virtually *anything*. I have chickens in my back yard, and while they'll eat bits of vegetables and grains and such, they fight over meat scraps. We even throw them the mice we catch in the house.
And if one has insulin trouble -- ie, is carb intolerant -- eating a diet based on grains and beans is suicidal.
I've never been a vegetarian, but I sure ate a low fat diet based on whole grains and beans. Got me up to 200 pounds at 5'2", with borderline high blood pressure and hideous energy swings. Grains and beans are *not* my friends.
Dana at March 3, 2010 1:11 PM
This is fascinating stuff to me. Before I had learned about Amy's own situation with separate living arrangements as a preferred way of doing things, I'd always thought that the goal was to move in together as soon as possible. But that flipped a light in my mind. Now I'm of the opinion that separate accommodation is the default position and living together has to have a HUGE justification.
Crusader at March 6, 2010 7:28 PM
Exactly, Crusader. I read several advice columns, and I'm always struck by the people writing in to say that they're not ready to move in with their partners, but they don't have concrete reasons why. Instead, they should have concrete reasons why they do want to move in together. Otherwise, you end up in situations where one or both partners has just drifted along in the relationship and starts to feel trapped.
NumberSix at March 8, 2010 10:58 PM
Leave a comment