Thick And Tired Of It
In the two years I've been with my boyfriend, I've gained 40 pounds. I was unemployed, got lazy, blah, blah, blah. I've been trying to slim down without success, probably because I feel so bad about myself now. But, is it normal for a man to withdraw all affection when his partner gains weight? My boyfriend hasn't kissed me or had sex with me in over a year. He won't even put his arm around me. He'll hug me if I ask him, but that's all. Aren't you supposed to love your partner for who they are, even if they gain weight or get cancer and have chemo and lose their hair? I'm certain he isn't cheating, and he says he doesn't want to break up. But, say I lose weight, and he regains interest. Can I ever forgive him for what he's put me through?
--Fatty With A Dream
In two years, you've put on the equivalent of a 5-year-old child about to outgrow his car seat. That isn't going up a dress size; it's going up a tent size.
Love might be blind, but male lust usually has a weight limit. There are those guys who are fatty fanciers, but a guy who got together with you 40 pounds ago probably isn't one of them. Male sexuality is highly visual. Women tend to feel superior for not caring as much about looks, but we're all just acting on marching orders from our genes. While most women are picky about men's height, women across cultures prioritize finding a partner with money and mojo. In other words, a big compromise for you probably isn't having sex with a fat guy, but sticking with a guy who quits his high-powered job to become a Hare Krishna and sell flowers at the airport.
Yeah, sure, "real women have curves," but these days, far too many real women's curves also have folds. The sad thing is, if you're like so many Fatty Pattys desperately trying to lose weight, you've probably been approaching it all wrong -- thanks to the advice of your doctor, Dr. Oz, much of the medical establishment, and numerous supposed scientists at prestigious universities. It's actually obscene how many "authorities" lazily and intransigently promote hearsay-based dietary medicine; for example, claiming saturated fat consumption causes heart disease when the evidence for that simply doesn't exist.
For actual evidence-based science on losing weight, sans hunger and suffering, turn to Dr. Michael Eades' blog at proteinpower.com and to investigative science journalist Gary Taubes' exhaustively researched book Good Calories, Bad Calories. Taubes shows that it's carbohydrates -- sugar, flour, and easily digested starches like potatoes -- that drive the excess insulin secretion that puts on fat. Per Taubes' title, it seems a calorie is not a calorie, and the fewer carbs you eat, the slinkier you will be. If this sounds like the Atkins Diet, that's because it basically is. As Taubes told me, "Doctors have been saying Atkins is a quack for so long, they never bothered to check whether he actually got the science right. Unfortunately, he did and they didn't."
I'll let your friends go on about how your boyfriend's a horrible person, and how love should transcend all. The reality is, it often doesn't. Besides, you didn't get cancer; you got a trough of Haagen-Dazs, stuck your snout in, and didn't look up for two years straight. Now, maybe your boyfriend's affection strike is utterly unconnected to your weight, but chances are, he's angry and resentful that he's got a girlfriend whose panties are beginning to resemble a parasail. So, why isn't he putting his arms through the leg slots and sailing off a tall building to safety? Maybe he still loves you; maybe he's too lazy to leave. Or, maybe he's trying to drive you away because he feels bad about breaking up over your looks -- or even suggesting you step down as International Hausfrau of Pancakes: "Hey, Buffet Queen, either lose your 40 pounds or wave goodbye to my 175."
Since gaining 40 pounds isn't "Got a little absent-minded while holding a bag of Doritos," it seems it wasn't an empty stomach you were trying to fill. Clearly, you not only need to lose weight but to deal with why you packed it on. Whether your boyfriend will come around and whether you'll forgive him is anyone's guess. Whether you're willing to put up with a boyfriend who won't put out -- not even a hug, without being asked -- is the looming question at present. Whatever you decide, it helps to accept that, as a woman, you need to do the very best you can with what you have. Sure, inner beauty counts for a lot, but it isn't slimming. And while the average guy doesn't want Kate Moss, he isn't into Kate Moose, either.
This column generated a snowstorm of letters and e-mail -- mostly angry ones from women, and a few complementary ones (thanking me for telling the truth).
I don't recall getting even one angry letter from a man. In fact, most were along the lines of this e-mail that came a couple days ago:
Amy,I am so SOO glad you are, at least the one single woman, who can see something (FAT) for what it is. I am soooo tired of hearing, reading and seeing women "circle the wagons" around a female friend of theirs that gets fat and then tell them it's a man's fault for it or it's all men who are pigs for finding themselves attracted to someone who has the pride to keep themselves in shape.
I can only speak to what I see around me, and I've traveled my entire life outside of the U.S.A. and let me tell you that American women, by and large (you'll pardon the pun) are the largest women out there.
While women in America are young (late teens through very early 30s) they tend to rely on their biology to keep them in shape ....never once maintaining any sort of fitness regime nor eating healthy after their "sporting days" in high school.
During this time, just like men, they are sewing their "wild oats", enjoying all the attention and finding much sport with their picking and choosing of amorous suitors with hardly a never-mind to whose feelings might be hurt along the way as they let who they want to into bed and who they don't.
Then suddenly one day they wake up and realize that that they've gained a substantial amount of weight and aren't the "youngest pretty thing" in the room at the party any more.
SUDDENLY ...all men are pigs! ...for not seeing them for who they are and appreciating them below the surface of the ample flesh they now present to the community and I feel no compassion for any of them for the simple fact that there was none on display by them before.
No I'm not a jaded male, I simply have clear eyes and can see all around me and the scenario plays out time and time again. All they need to do is exercise and eat healthy.
....But much like the word "Fat", to them the word "exercise" carries the same horrors. As the old saying goes, "You can't have your cake and eat it too".
Thank you ever soo much for telling women what we've been saying forever. Loose the weight (Nobody was born FAT) and we'll be all over you. Don't and you can hang out with your girlfriends and enjoy the heck out of the pity-party ya'll are throwing but I'll be staying in shape and talking to the "new girl" that just walked in with the nice personality.
God Bless you!
Kyle HarmonP.S. If you do me the honor of including any of this (paraphrase to your hearts' content) in your column now or in the future, at least women will see that we are not pigs, can be monogamous but did not sign up to be living with "your mother" in bed next to us.
Sorry LW, there's no answer to this that'll make you happy. Guys tend to be very visual - they see what they like and then (sometimes) get to know the inner you. And I know guys that are attracted to heavier women, and fat women, and seek them out.
But your boyfriend apparently isn't one of those. He liked you the way you were. You can't change how he feels and neither can he. Its also true that for evolutionary reasons women don't place as much importance on looks. Some women are apparently not bothered if their guy doubles in size. Speaking only for myself - I may still love my suddenly super sized guy - but I can't say I'd be as attracted to him. That's how life is.
So, figure out why you've gained weight then do something about it - not for him, but for you. It may be as simple as the usual little older/less active/crappy diet thing. And there is a bright side to this ... at least you weren't married to him when you found out that "for better or for worse" didn't include a weight clause.
catspajamas at March 23, 2010 6:16 PM
Man, Ms. Alkon was waaaaaay too nice. Let me do the dirty work.
"Aren't you supposed to love your partner for who they are, even if they gain weight or get cancer and have chemo and lose their hair?
You have cancer? No? Then STFU about cancer. You got fat. You can get unfat.
"I'm certain he isn't cheating,"
Sure he is. Or will soon. Men don't go without sex if it is available unless they have a really, really good reason to not do it. Fat is one reason to not do it, because it grosses men out. When he finds a non-fat chick willing, he will get sex.
"Can I ever forgive him for what he's put me through?"
That statement alone pretty much seals it: he should dump your narcissistic ass.
Spartee at March 23, 2010 6:22 PM
The basic equation for weight loss is: calories in must be less than calories out. Dieting alone does not work. Exercise, even something as simple as walking, is the answer. Being 40 pounds o/w is not something that will stop you from donning a pair of runners and hitting the bricks to do an hour-long daily speed walk. Don't dawdle when you walk; pump those arms and legs and work up a sweat. You'll be very pleasantly surprised at the results.
The nice thing about being physically active is that it's a natural appetite supressant. The more aerobic activity you do, the greater the benefit to your metabolism.
The other secret to losing weight is to stop eating between meals. If you must eat between meals, have something that is very low in fat and calories. Don't get fooled by granola bars; they are high in fat. Eat proper meals. Do not eat anything after dinner; if you must put something in your stomach after dinner, drink hot decaf tea.
Shed those extra pounds, and then shed the b/f who hasn't given you any kind of affirmation, affection, or love over the past year. Don't waste your time or effort on someone who is secretly pushing you away. But do take responsibility for your own body. You get only one time around, with only one body. Treat your body like a temple. You'll be a happier person, all around.
Bluejean Baby at March 23, 2010 7:27 PM
Yeah, sure, "real women have curves," but these days, far too many real women's curves also have folds.
Zing! I'm so going to steal that line...
This can work the other way round too - I put on a lot of weight after leaving school (no more sport, too much beer) and my long term high school girlfriend finally confessed she wasn't finding me attractive anymore. No argument from me about "you should love me for who I am", I never blamed her for feeling that way - I wasn't the person she had signed up for. It took a while but I bought a bike, made some sensible, long term changes in my diet, and dropped (coincidentally for the LW) 40 pounds.
Can I ever forgive him for what he's put me through?
I agree Spartee, that has got to be the most selfish statement I've ever seen. LW, what about what you've put him through? Assuming for the sake of argument you are correct that he's not cheating and still wants to be with you, here we have someone who is willing to stick with you through thick and thin for years while you work through your problems. He probably doesn't even want you to lose all that much, I doubt he's asking you to launch a new career as a supermodel. Men like that aren't going to be concerned about a bit of cellulite here and there, a slightly thick ankle, and all the rest of it - he just wants someone who looks good enough in a dress to make him want to tear it off. You should be thanking him for being willing to wait for the woman he met to come back. Lose the weight and beg forgiveness or do him a favour and cut him loose.
Ltw at March 23, 2010 7:30 PM
I don't think it's only men who find fat unsexy. I definitely find a partner less attractive when he starts to pork up. And it is hard to bring up, because of all that "You should love me no matter what." As my brother-in-law famously (in our family) said when my sister asked if he'd still love her if she weighed 400 pounds, "Yeah . . . from a distance." She's a scrawny marathon-running vegan, so she thought it was funny.
P.S. I was always skinny all my life, put on weight a few years ago as a result of a major medical situation. The "no refined carbs" diet worked wonders for me. That plus running at least 5k a day most days of the week.
anathema at March 23, 2010 8:25 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1703891">comment from anathemaAs my brother-in-law famously (in our family) said when my sister asked if he'd still love her if she weighed 400 pounds, "Yeah . . . from a distance."
I quoted your comment, which you left previously on my blog, in the response column I wrote to this one (not to worry - no names or anything, but I thought that was a fantastic remark).
Amy Alkon at March 23, 2010 8:40 PM
You know what? I've been fat, and I've been skinny, and I will honestly tell you that yes, men DO look at you more, FAR, FAR more, if you're skinny.
Do I blame them? NO. I don't particularly care for fat men, either. However, I don't see fat men whining to everyone that will listen that chicks won't date them, because, men being men, before too long, one of his buddies will look at him and say, "Well, you're fat. What do you expect?"
It's life. Suck it up, grow up, and get over it.
Ann at March 23, 2010 8:48 PM
"Can I ever forgive him for what he's put me through?"
I think far too many women have *no clue* about male sexuality. They don't care, and when they're young they don't have to.
ErikZ at March 23, 2010 8:53 PM
Even leaving aside the fat thing, it's a lot to ask of a partner to feel the exact way about you as he did two years ago when you've changed something about yourself in those two years. If your boyfriend suddenly took to wearing a pompom hat every day, all the time, no matter what, you'd wonder what was up with him, right? It would be an unexpected, voluntary physical change. There would have to be some sort of underlying reason for it. And if he refused to take off the hat and demanded that you love him exactly as he is now, even though it's not what he was two years ago, you would see that as a problem, right? I mean, you didn't fall for the guy who wears the stupid hat all the time, even in the shower and during sex. It would be worth reevaluating your relationship if this scenario came to pass. Please extrapolate the principles of this for your own situation.
NumberSix at March 23, 2010 8:55 PM
I knew a woman once who argued that men should be educated to love & lust after someone for reasons other than looks.
I laughed pretty hard about that one.
I've also heard women go on about culture being responsible, a few brief questions usually reveal that they've never actually BEEN outside of their own culture, and they can't answer rationally why they think it MUST be a cultural thing.
I like athletic women, I live an active life, I want someone who can keep up with me.
Family size bag of dorritos all to yourself, and you're probably not the one for me.
Robert at March 24, 2010 12:00 AM
By the way, I have to agree with some of the other commentators, that is one narcissistic bitch.
Robert at March 24, 2010 12:02 AM
Via a tweet I just read, here's a woman who lost weight following Dr. Eades' advice -- complete with photos:
http://nopainnograin.blogspot.com/2010/02/me-before-and-after-low-carb.html
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 12:03 AM
I lost a decent amount of weight on the Eades Protein Power plan and then I plateaued.
Then I started doing a "slow burn" workout once a week based on the book by Eades and Fred Hahn. Strangely my appetite seemed to decline and I have been losing again.
Engineer at March 24, 2010 12:19 AM
40 lbs puts you into the plus size catagory, lard butt. You're fat, whining, miserable and you wonder why your boyfriend doesn't want to fall all over you? Hell, he's probably terrified that he won't be able to find his way back out.
Here's a hint, honey... it's not that he doesn't want to put his arm around you or hug you, it's that he can't physically fit his arms around you anymore.
You've been wallowing in twinkies for the last two years and he's the one with the attitude problem? You should fall to your knees and thank God he didn't dump you for being a self absorbed, loser.
Sarah at March 24, 2010 1:23 AM
Kyle writes: I can only speak to what I see around me, and I've traveled my entire life outside of the U.S.A. and let me tell you that American women, by and large (you'll pardon the pun) are the largest women out there.
It would be beyond hypocritical of Amy not to pardon puns.
By the way, Amy, you handled the dietary advice much better than you normally do. You kept the statements general, you paraphrased the sources accurately and you referred them to the experts. Even I couldn't dispense dietary advice as a personal trainer. Since I'm accepting money from people to teach them to exercise, any dietary mention blurs the lines between personal training and casting myself in the role of dietician, and I'm in heap big trouble if the holders of my certification find out. Moreover, if anything goes wrong, I become liable and my insurance will not bail me out for dietary advice.
It's much more prudent for you to handle the dietary advice like this. You really don't need some stupid lawsuit for casting yourself in the role of dietician. For your own sake, I would encourage you to keep it this way.
But regarding the liability issues surrounding dispensing dietary advice, I would actually encourage you to either talk to a lawyer or some expert, like Dr. Eades, and find out what your limits actually are.
It's natural to be excited about finding something good. Just don't become overzealous when sharing it. Let's not shoot down your rising star over something irrelevant to your cause, like dieting.
Patrick at March 24, 2010 3:16 AM
Well, I agree with Spartee and the contingent of those shaking their heads in disbelief over the "Can I ever forgive him for what he's put me through?" contingent.
He didn't just arbitrarily turn into the Ice King, you know. Your fat, to say nothing of your attitude, turned him off.
The Goddess quotes someone: As my brother-in-law famously (in our family) said when my sister asked if he'd still love her if she weighed 400 pounds, "Yeah . . . from a distance."
"From a distance"? At 400 pounds it would have to be... (getting out bullhorn) Darling, I love you, but something's come between us!...and I think it's this half-acre amorphous section of flesh.
I'm reminded of the classic description of Horace Walpole, reminiscing about meeting the fat mistress of George I, the Countess of Darlington (as compared to his other mistress, the Duchess of Kendal, who was actually a beanpole of a woman):
"Lady Darlington, whom I saw at my mother’s in my infancy, and whom I remember by being terrified at her enormous figure, was as corpulent and ample as the Duchess (Kendal) was long and emaciated. Two fierce, black eyes, large and rolling beneath two lofty, arched eyebrows, two acres of cheeks spread with crimson, an ocean of neck that overflowed and was not distinguished from the lower parks of her body, and no part retrained by stays – no wonder that a child dreaded such an ogress, and that the mob of London were highly diverted at the importation of so uncommon a seraglio!"
And people tell me that I'm harsh.
Patrick at March 24, 2010 3:37 AM
Lose the weight or find a chubby chaser.
NicoleK at March 24, 2010 3:52 AM
Amy, are you going to post the back up column, or wasn't there one this week?
Patrick at March 24, 2010 4:58 AM
"Via a tweet I just read, here's a woman who lost weight following Dr. Eades' advice -- complete with photos:
http://nopainnograin.blogspot.com/2010/02/me-before-and-after-low-carb.html "
Ooh, that's me! Thanks for linking. I have been fat and thin a few times over the course of my lifetime, and definitely noticed a difference in the reaction from men. It's a no-brainer as to why I didn't get the looks and the flirting from men when I was fat.
I had lost weight previous to this time by way of starving myself on low fat, low calorie diets. The weight came off painfully (it's no fun being hungry) and eventually went right back on because it's not a sustainable lifestyle. Hell, it's not even a lifestyle, it's just starvation. When I got fat again I couldn't bear to even think of starving myself again, so I had pretty much resigned myself to the fact that I was going to be fat forever.
Thank goodness I gave low carb eating a shot. It has been painless, and I am so satisfied. The weight isn't coming back on, it's gone - - but I haven't gone back to the SAD diet, I really have made a lifestyle change. It's a change I can live with, happily and for the rest of my life.
LisaC at March 24, 2010 5:07 AM
Also, if you are unable or unwilling to lose the weight, make sure you aren't letting yourself go in other ways. Fat women often give up on themselves, and don't make themselves look nice.
One trap they fall into is not buying clothes that fit well, because they plan to lose weight, so why bother spending the money? Spend the money. Buy some cute outfits in your current size that look good on you as you are now.
Do your make-up and your hair. It is more important now than when you were thin. Thin women can get away with looking schlumpy... fat women can't.
Also, make sure your attitude is good. People like their fat people to be jolly bonvivants. Let's face it... you wouldn't BE fat if you didn't have a bit of a hedonistic indulgant streak. So be fun. Nothing uglier than a depressed fat person.
Did your boobs get big? A bit (a BIT) of cleavage can be nice.
NicoleK at March 24, 2010 5:09 AM
Thank You Amy!!!! You nailed it (as usual)
Chris at March 24, 2010 5:19 AM
Also, be sure to check out the latest study from Princeton University on how high fructose corn syrup contributes to obesity to a far greater extent than sugar, especially in conjunction with a high-fat diet. (Big mac and a supersize coke, anyone?)
http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S26/91/22K07/
I wonder if high fructose corn syrup is going to be the next tobacco? Industry has been resisting any suggestion hfcs is a major contributor to the obesity epidemic for years. The results of this study look pretty damning.
Melissa G at March 24, 2010 5:21 AM
I disagree with most of the earlier comments; I don't think it's all, or even mostly, about the weight.
Full disclosure - my wife wasn't thin when I met her in college, and 20 years and 2 kids later, has put on about another 30 pounds. Unlike a lot of people here I think there is a genetic component to weight; my wife is still the thinnest woman in her family. She eats reasonably well and gets to the gym when she can. We went hiking in Europe last year, she could go for hours, no problem. Our sex life is better than ever.
All of which is a roundabout way of saying, for me at least, attitude and effort are everything. As noted by others, LW's sense of entitlement is striking. By the way she writes, I'd guess she's in her mid-20's. So we have a young woman who by her own account "gained 40 pounds...was unemployed, got lazy, blah, blah, blah", which sounds a lot like once she roped in a man, completely stopped or giving a shit. (It's a safe bet that the "blah blah blah" isn't anything too good) As distressing as the 40 pounds itself is, this guy is probably looking 10 years and 200 pounds into the future. I just don't see what she's bringing to the tqable here, on any level.
will at March 24, 2010 5:22 AM
Will is right. Its more than just the weight. She got lazy, is unemployed, and gained 40 pounds. I can picture her sitting on her couch with a bag of chips in her hand wearing yesterday's dirty, baggy sweats and her dirty hair clipped up looking over at her boyfriend asking why he won't cuddle with her. As someone who struggled with weight most of my life and now again due to some medical issues, I know that its not as easy as it seems, but the part where you lose me is when you stop taking care of yourself. I was in a long term relationship and my boyfriend was still loving and we still had great sex. This was probably because I didn't sit around on my fat ass feeling sorry for myself giving up on the world. Her bf may not be cheating yet, but give it time. She needs to pull her head out of her ass and get her shit together.
Kristen at March 24, 2010 5:32 AM
Patrick
Didn't know you are a personal trainer! I am one in Indiana (land of the Mastadon sitting at Old Country Buffett).
Richard Cook at March 24, 2010 5:33 AM
PLEASE LISTEN TO AMY ABOUT THE LOW CARB ADVICE!
I was diagnosed with Type II diabetes a year ago. My doctor wanted to put me on medication. I said I would research it and get back to him. He gave me 2 months to see what I could do. I came upon Dr. Eades blog and followed the advice. In two months my tests were normal and I have now lost 35 lbs and kept it off easily with no hunger. Gary Taubes is right - a calorie is not just a calorie.
My husband did this with me and lost 40 lbs and is at his high school weight. He is never hungry and in fact I have to prod him to eat enough! Try it.
kathy hall at March 24, 2010 5:55 AM
I actually think this advice is spot on. Harsh, but I think she needed to hear it.
Big does not necassarily equal unattractive, but attitude and effort have a lot to do with it. It's one thing to gain a dress size or two after pregnancy, illness, or because of aging. It is quite another to gain a "tent size" because you got lazy and stopped caring. I have an image in my head of her laying around in her sweats with her unwashed hair in a clip all day for days at a time and eating junk food. That, to me, shows that she just doesn't give a damn enough about herself to even try to take care of herself. If she doesn't care about herself, why should he be expected too? That is a little unrealistic and very entitled.
I don't think it is too much to ask a woman to at least TRY to look attractive for her man (within reason). Women go to great lengths to be attractive while dating, but so many stop once they snag thier man. Why? Men don't suddenly go blind once wedding vows are taken ya know. Do we women tend to get more comfortable after committing? Sure. Are their days where I will sit and relax in my sweats with no makeup? Sure. But on those days, I don't expect my hubby to be fawning all over me either. No matter how comfortable I am with him, I still want my husband to stay hot for me, not just lukewarm. I still work out regularly, eat healthy, and try to dress in clothing that flatters me. I take care of myself and take pride in my appearance. The being attractive to my husband takes care of itself that way.
Sabrina at March 24, 2010 6:34 AM
One other thing. There is often a contingent of people who will cheer on the gal in this situation, and say, "There are plenty of men into heavier women. Go find yourself one. You go, big beautiful girl, you go!"
Gawd, what terrible advice that is. Essentially, it is saying to try and find one of those statisticallly small group of guys who are turned on by heavy women rather than thinner, healthier ones. Yeah, such men exist, but not in the numbers heavier women would like to believe.
There is a reason Playboy and Hustler had large distributions, while the mags with heavier gals were tiny publications, purchased by few men, most of whom were doing it for humor value.
This is on par with a mom telling her unemployed, heavy, shy, agoraphobic adult son that someday he will find someone to love, because he is so special.
Yeah, maybe. But what are the odds? Don't play the lottery as a life plan. That goes for dating too. Instead, try and bend the odds to your favor by playing the game according to its real rules, not the rules you wished existed.
Spartee at March 24, 2010 6:37 AM
In my experience, women don't care about money...as long as they have it. As a financially-secure woman, I didn't look for a high-powered successful man this time around. Been there, done that, and know the pitfalls.
But men will always desire sex with an attractive woman. Perhaps, if he could get that, and still love you, it would work - men can separate love and sex, and it sounds like he does love you or he wouldn't still be there - but if you want the sex to be WITH you, you're going to have to lose the weight.
lovelysoul at March 24, 2010 6:40 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1703973">comment from PatrickAmy, are you going to post the back up column, or wasn't there one this week?
I did only one question. And LisaC, how cool -- and thanks for dropping by.
And seriously, if you want to lose weight, low carb it. It's absolutely incredible. A friend of mine who's from a family prone to diabetes, and who's prone to weight gain (if he looks at a cracker) lost 17 pounds in a month and continues to keep losing (the first month, I let him eat only eggs, bacon, hamburger, and steak, no alcohol, no dairy, no vegetables. Second month, he incorporated green veggies with butter).
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 6:41 AM
to the letter writer: your boyfriend should still love you (and probably does, affection and love are two different things) but you don't show love for yourself - abusing yourself with food sure wasn't love, and shouldn't you have loved him enough to stay in shape?
What would my girlfriend think if I spent the next two years abusing my body, would she be fine with that? Shoving bad food into my mouth, bringing me closer to fatty liver disease and diabetes as well as being unnatractive? Or would she say "I want you to love me enough that you show love for yourself by staying healthy and good looking."
Anyone who "lets themselves go" shows utter lack of respect and love for their partner. Time to look in the mirror and realize it goes both ways.
Getting sick or cancer has nothing to do with gaining weight which was under your control. It's "in sickness and in health" not "in laziness and self inflicted disease."
plutosdad at March 24, 2010 6:45 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1703976">comment from lovelysoulIn my experience, women don't care about money...as long as they have it.
Actually, you may be an anomaly. Research suggests rich, powerful women seek richer, more powerful men.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 6:47 AM
"Actually, you may be an anomaly. Research suggests rich, powerful women seek richer, more powerful men."
That may because they haven't yet been with one. I'll bet if Elin ever leaves Tiger, she'll find some nice Swedish insurance salesman to settle down with. High success and wealth comes at a price, and it's usually paid with character flaws.
lovelysoul at March 24, 2010 6:54 AM
Amy Bravo! Again you are correct.
My 2-cents:
Guys are hard-wired to prefer certain female forms. These are typically the healthiest to produce offspring. Big breasts for breast feeding, shapely hips for child-bearing, and a slender waist which typically indicates a certain level of health and or fitness. Blame evolution hard-wired into men, not men.
Women typically prefer guys with resources, aka money. However, If you ask women if they would sleep with someone because they have money, they always deny it.
Anyone know Mick Jagger? If he is a homeless guy, is he sleeping with Super-Models?
Women do admit to liking taller guys but will never admit they would sleep with a shorter guy if he had resources, "aka Money."
For example: I have talked to some women who won't date a guy under 5'10". I will say what about Tom Cruise? Well yeah I would date Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise has? Resources, aka money.
I would imagine this letter writer has been groomed through the last 50 years of feminism, to cast a very scrutinizing eye on men, without ever casting this same scrutinizing eye on herself?
After all in the last 50 years we have only put men's behavior under the microscope and not women's. A little self examination goes a long way.
I'm 5'7" and have a middle class income and I don't have to forgive every women who won't date me because I'm short or am not a millionaire.
That's the way life is. I could curl up in a ball and cry myself to sleep or go out and enjoy my life. I choose to enjoy my life.
David M. at March 24, 2010 7:07 AM
I get that the LW has gained a ton of weight and is probably not sexually attractive to her boyfriend, but, if she is telling the truth here, he has gone above and beyond in withdrawing affection. He won't kiss her or put his arm around her, and she has to ask for hugs. That seems extreme, no matter how fat she got. Makes me wonder why he's still with her at all.
Gaining 40 pounds is depressing. It's even more so when your own boyfriend starts treating you like a leper. She certainly has a responsibility to take care of herself, but it wouldn't kill him to be a little supportive in that area. Unless he wants no part of this version of her, in which case he should break up with her, not treat her like something gross he found in the back of the fridge.
MonicaP at March 24, 2010 7:09 AM
"Can I ever forgive him for what he's put me through?"
No, you can't. So give up now and start looking for someone just like yourself—overweight, lazy and unemployed. You two should have a lot to talk about and should get along just fine.
Razor at March 24, 2010 7:14 AM
Can I ever forgive him for what he's put me through?
Let me ask you this, LW: Can your boyfriend ever forgive you for what you're put him through this last year?
He committed to a woman in an exclusive relationship and found himself resorting to beating off rather than laying on top of her 40-pound overweight body.
He committed to a woman for whom he felt some initial degree of attraction only to have her super-size her waistline a year later.
Personally, I think it's not just your body he finds disgusting, but your attitude, as well.
He committed to a woman who wallowed in laziness and depression to excuse her lack of dietary/physical discipline.
It's probably not just your body he finds disgusting, but your attitude, as well.
What's so interesting about your letter to Amy is that you don't ask for solutions about what you can do to help get your sexual life with your boyfriend in line. What you're asking for is validation of your entitled attitude towards about your boyfriend.
You're not gonna get it, sister. Just because you got your guy to commit to you in a long-term relationship doesn't mean you get a life-long free pass to stop taking care of yourself. Anything you read or anything your friends tell you contrary to that is a hot and steaming pile of bullshit.
You want sex? Make yourself desirable to him. Lose the weight. Put on some makeup. Be sweet to him. Be happy, even, if you can manage it. Take responsibility for the part that you've played with the current state of your sexual relationship. Don't make him out to be some sort of villain simply because he's a man and prefers not to fuck your fatness. You've admitted you're overweight. Be honest with yourself: if you were a man, would YOU want to fuck you?? Probably not.
Stop trying to place the blame on him by turning around the situation to avoid your role in the decline of your sex life. Take charge of the sorry state of your sex life and take responsibility for what you've created. Do your best to fix the damage you've done...if you're able to, that is.
Jen Wading at March 24, 2010 7:16 AM
@Robert . . . Having lived all over the world, I do have to say that I think there are cultural differences in what men find attractive. This doesn't change the fact that *whatever* that cultural norm is, the situation would be the same. Many African men prefer a somewhat rounder figure (not fat, just more solid than the American ideal). My Mexican boyfriend loves a round ass on a woman, isn't turned on by skinny girls. A lot of Asian men are sort of baffled by the obsession with giant boobs (I had to buy a bra in Thailand once. That's where I learned that a C-cup is sort of a monstrosity there). None of these are absolutes, they're cultural trends . . . I'm sure some Ghanaians love Kate Moss and some Laotians think Pamela Anderson is the feminine ideal, but still. It's kind of silly to say there are no cultural differences. Humans do vary from culture to culture, and whatever's normal there will be more desirable.
anathema at March 24, 2010 7:42 AM
P.S. I only read you online (since my local papers maliciously don't carry you), so hadn't seen my anecdote posted. Makes me smile. I come from a very blunt family where we will all tell you that it's not the skirt that makes you look fat, it's the 5 extra pounds on your ass. Luckily, we all married men who share this trait, and don't pout (too much) if you poke their middle and say, "Geez. Lay off the Fritos, why dontcha!?!"
anathema at March 24, 2010 7:45 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1703999">comment from anathemaYou might request me in your local paper -- it often works.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 7:50 AM
Is this a different LW who gained 40 pds or are we just beating her up again?
lovelysoul at March 24, 2010 7:58 AM
people who don't really agree with amy
http://community.livejournal.com/cf_abby_tribute/236103.html
j at March 24, 2010 9:04 AM
people who don't really agree with amy
http://community.livejournal.com/cf_abby_tribute/236103.html
Those were some hilarious comments. But I particularly enjoyed this one: "And over the course of two years, gaining 40 pounds, while not great, isn't shocking and obscene; it's under 2 lbs/month." I think this explains why so many people get so fat in this country.
Fink-Nottle at March 24, 2010 9:24 AM
I did a lot of legal research in the 80's and 90's while counseling divorced fathers. One thing I learned on the side was legal restrictions are related to whether a person holds themselves out as a pro. Patrick, you are, I understand, a professional trainer, and apparently you are not allowed to discuss diet, based on the rules of your profession.
In most states, neither are chiropractors.
That is because they are holding themselves out as health pros, sort of. But, are not certified dietitians.
I can talk about diet and nutrition, as long as I don't hold myself out as a pro, or as an expert. Or, better said, as long as a reasonable person would not believe I was holding myself out as a pro on diet.
I can also discuss laws, though I am not an attorney. I can even tell someone, sarcasm intended, if you keep driving faster than the speed limit, you are going to get summoned into court, and pay a big fine, and perhaps lose your d/l. And, I can do that without being an attorney. Some of these conceited attorneys honestly believe we cannot say a word on any aspect of the law, which is insane.
When I did counseling, I was well aware of my legal limits. I told men what choices they would have to make, and what was involved in making that choice. I could not tell them which choice to make on a given issue. An attorney could, though the attorney should not, but they do.
Once, some dirtbag called up, clearly a detective or lawyer trying to shut us down. He said, Oh me Of My, I am penniless and not a cent to my name, but need to answer a court paper (which was an instant clue, because penniless men seldom know what they need to do.) I told him he'd have to write it himself, I could not do so. It would be practicing law to write those papers, but he could write them himself.
This poor, poor man who had not a cent to his name finally offered me $100 to write his paper. I wanted my toe in his middle, really bad.
We had a member who worked nights, and the local judges did allow him to sit in court with men who had no money for an attorney, and whisper to them, but he could not say a word. He kept a number of penniless men from losing custody rights simply for being unemployed. When I called him, he'd get off work at 1 am, set his alarm and be at the courthouse at 9 am.
There are people who would like to stop ordinary folks with no medical training from teaching each other how to be healthy, since most doctors know less about dieting and nutrition than the average patient does, but as long as it is opinion of an ordinary person who is not confused with a professional, it is pure bluff.
I am sure you can come up with a case where someone is nailed, but if you check they were in most cases charging money, not just telling each other good health tips.
irlandes at March 24, 2010 9:26 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704019">comment from jpeople who don't really agree with amy http://community.livejournal.com/cf_abby_tribute/236103.html
They can disagree with me all they want, but they cannot post my copyrighted work in its entirety as they have. They are free to link/excerpt, but not do what they're doing.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 9:27 AM
I agree with MonicaP, that something besides her weight may be at issue. It's strange that he won't even cuddle, yet says he doesn't want to break up. Sexual activity ebbs and flows in the best of relationships, but affection shouldn't stop altogether.
If he really loves her, he wouldn't stop hugging her. He'd say, "Honey, I'm worried about your health. Let's go for a walk." And he'd do things with her, like exercising and cooking healthier meals, to help her lose the weight.
When did this occur? Did he pull away after she gained only 10 pds...or 20? If it's directly related to her weight, she'll see a correlation, but if not, there might be something else.
I mean, her point isn't entirely off base. He *should* love her despite the weight. I have a guest here who adores his wife, and she's no beauty - quite overweight. He's not exactly skinny either - kind of burly. Yet, they have the best time together, and the other day, when it was uncharacteristically cold here in FL, he warmed their bed with a blow dryer before she crawled in to take a nap! The women here just can't get over that one. It's nice to see a man treat his plain, chubby wife so lovingly.
But they've been married probably 25-30 years, have several kids, and a long history together. You can't expect that sort of love and unconditional acceptance after only 2 years.
lovelysoul at March 24, 2010 9:31 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704024">comment from Amy AlkonI've filed a copyright violation complaint with Live Journal:
http://www.livejournal.com/support/see_request.bml?id=1071565&auth=xns9
Again, disagree with me all you want, and feel free to post a small excerpt of my work and a link to the original. You don't get to take my copyrighted work and post it in its entirety.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 9:33 AM
>> http://community.livejournal.com/cf_abby_tribute/236103.html
I read that mess. They did not seem to have read OP. She said she was lazy, blah; blah. Amy didn't make that up. When someone contacts an advice columnist and says, "I am a fat, ugly, lazy slob" a good advice columnist tells her to change her s**t. You are not doing favors by telling a fat, ugly, lazy slob she is doing fine, and to keep up the good work.
Amy 1 Fat dumb f***s 0
By the way, I think if you investigate, you will find the women in the UK outdo the AW fatties by a large margin.
irlandes at March 24, 2010 9:39 AM
Those were some hilarious comments. But I particularly enjoyed this one: "And over the course of two years, gaining 40 pounds, while not great, isn't shocking and obscene; it's under 2 lbs/month." I think this explains why so many people get so fat in this country.
I don't know, you really think that was better than the one who accused Amy of "fat hate", and then two sentences later wished that Amy would blow up like an effing blimp and be able to wear nothing but tents from Lane Bryant?
I agre with those who think the livejournal
commenters are doing LW no favors. "There's nothing wrong with you, just dump the guy and get another!" She *should* dump the guy, but her life is clearly not together at all. Maybe take a break from guys for a while.
will at March 24, 2010 10:08 AM
I am going to violate the rules against kissing and telling. My wife and I have been married 35 years. She is 68 and I will be in a couple weeks.
I am hypoglycemic. I got up to 220 pounds, was hungry all the time, and looked terrible. I needed naps all day long. Once my daughter loaned me Atkins, I realized instantly that was me.
I am stuck on phase one, not very many carbs, no carbs as such, though I do eat some peanuts which I understand have some carbs. I lost a lot of weight, and feel so much better. bp typically 106/64, and I don't need no stinkin' Viagra. I go for five hour walks across the mountains. What a great life!
My wife, who was actually the same % overweight as I was, but it was distributed better, then also lost weight and got back down to 110 or so.
She is a big saggy, at age 68. Now comes the tell part. She looks saggy standing up, but when she lies down flat on her back, heh, heh, all the sags go away, and she looks absolutely GREAT!!!!! I bet there isn't another 68 year old woman in this town who can totally turn on her husband. Which may be why so many of them have mistresses?
If she were fat, that would not be the case.
Let me pass on what at our age must be a geriatric tip.
First, when you get to the age where desire usually sags, seek your daily hormonal peak. For us, it's around 2 in the afternoon. At ten pm, there is nothing there. She balked at first; this stuff is supposed to be in the night. But, after while she got used to it, and I am confident enjoys a good after-nooner as much as I do. So far we haven't been interrupted, and I wonder if her best friend who comes at all other hours for something, doesn't know or suspect and simply stays away during that time period. This is simple biology, if hormones are down when you are older, find their daily peak and go for it.
And, of course, I can see how sexy she is in the daylight, which does not hurt. Visual is important, as Amy has said many times.
Second, keep it up or lose it. Last fall, she was just too, too busy, and once it went a month. I was almost gone, and was seriously considering some outside activity. Somehow, once when she came back from the North, we got started again, and as long as it's twice a week, it is much better for her and for me. Use it or lose it.
I think this is partly physical, after a good roll in the hay, it seems hormones are up for a day or two.
And, partly psychological. If a husband gets turned down enough, he loses interest and stops asking. Simple operant conditioning.
irlandes at March 24, 2010 10:10 AM
"I just don't see what she's bringing to the table here"
A fork?
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 24, 2010 10:24 AM
A fork?A fork?
Ooooh, burn.
MonicaP at March 24, 2010 10:42 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704044">comment from Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers"I just don't see what she's bringing to the table here" A fork?
Hah - love it.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 10:46 AM
It appears that the LW's boyfriend does love her, or at least cares for her. But he doesn't find her physically attractive. There's really not much that he can do about that. You can't force yourself to be sexually attracted to someone.
This situation seems to be pretty common. Among the married couples I know, who are mostly in their 30's and early 40's, all but a handful of the women have put on a significant amount of weight. Not slower-metabolism weigh, fatty weight.
This is why I'm tired of hearing what POS's men are in marriage. The reality of the situation is that most men commit to, and support, women that they aren't physically attracted to. If we were really such dogs, few women over 40 would be married.
Leon at March 24, 2010 10:55 AM
It appears that the LW's boyfriend does love her, or at least cares for her.
The dude nearly refuses to touch her. That's not someone who cares. You don't have to be physically attracted to someone to show them physical affection. Him not wanting to have sex with her is understandable. Him not wanting to hug or kiss her or put his arm around her is over the top. And maybe it IS because she gained so much weight, but it doesn't sound like he's being terribly supportive.
Again, not saying she shouldn't lose the weight and do what she can to be more attractive, but it's really not normal to withdraw all physical affection from someone you claim to love.
MonicaP at March 24, 2010 11:05 AM
All the same, chubby chicks are sometimes hot, and BF is supposed to have a sex drive. Besides, a BJ feels the same from a fattie or skinny.
If BF has not had sex in a year, he needs a test to ascertain whether his male hormones are all in place.
And maybe he should hump LW really good, with all the extra stuff, every time she loses a pound. Or half-pound. Losing wieght is hard.
BOTU at March 24, 2010 11:09 AM
Monica I have the suspicion that the LW is exaggerating.
Leon at March 24, 2010 11:20 AM
"BF is supposed to have a sex drive. Besides, a BJ feels the same from a fattie or skinny."
LOL. Yeah, something just isn't right. 40 pds may make her less desirable, but you'd think he'd still want some sort of sex. Most men will take bad sex over no sex.
He may be a guy who checks out of a relationship once he settles in anyway. Just as she may be a woman who lets herself go once she gets settled.
However, one behavior can effect the other, so it would be interesting to know which occurred first.
At any rate, being treated like you're too ugly to hug or touch isn't helpful. She should lose the weight, but lose the boyfriend too.
lovelysoul at March 24, 2010 12:04 PM
You don't have to be physically attracted to someone to show them physical affection.
You don't understand how utterly essential the visuals are to men. Now, maybe there's something else going on here, but I would bet, from what I know of men, that the guy resents the hell out of her for porking up. He might still love her, he might be there because he just hasn't extricated himself, but I do bet he resents her and is quite angry with her.
She doesn't have some condition -- she hoisted food to mouth, and hoisted, and hoisted and hoisted. Without concern for how he'd feel being with a woman who was 40 pounds heavier -- until his feelings started to tangibly affect her.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 12:05 PM
But why does he get a pass to act this way? The heart of her question was this: "is it normal for a man to withdraw all affection when his partner gains weight?"
The answer to that is no, it's not normal to withdraw ALL affection. She shouldn't have let herself go, but if he's punishing her out of anger and resentment over this, then that doesn't show him to be a very promising partner. What else will he passively-agressively pull back affection over?
lovelysoul at March 24, 2010 12:13 PM
lovelysoul-
Something is not right with BF.
Look, chubby girls get lots of guys, especially when they are young. I have banged lots of chubby girls and liked it.
Additionally, BF is not on his 20th year of marriage here, when, admittedly, lust may go to dust. After two years, there should be a lot of zizzle.
Dear Abby would have called for the testosterone test.
We don't know the ages here. If BF is under 60, he is either ill or gay or humping someone else. we also don't know if she was 40 lbs over, and added on another 40, meaning she is flat out obese.
But if as stated....dump to weight and the guy, do a makeover, and start life anew.
BOTU at March 24, 2010 1:05 PM
"we also don't know if she was 40 lbs over, and added on another 40, meaning she is flat out obese."
True. But not only that, she says: "My boyfriend hasn't kissed me or had sex with me in over a year."
Now either she gained the whole forty pounds in that time, (in which case she need to see a doctor!)
or his cutoff point came somewhat earlier. Thirty pounds ago? Twenty? We don't know.
And depending on her beginning weight, height, bone structure, etc., the first ten pounds or so might have looked good on her, and he didn't know how to tell her when she went over the line.
And another thing we don't know--she says they're together and she's unemployed. So does that mean he's paying all the bills, as well as having an expanding girlfriend? Too many unknowns.
My guess is he will dump her if she doesn't get her shit together, and if she does, then she will dump him.
Pricklypear at March 24, 2010 2:04 PM
I'm on the same page with Amy so far as men are visual and this guy is dually frustrated that 1) she got lazy and depressing 2) she doesn't seem to care about how that affects things.
I don't think this guy should still be all sexed up in spite of himself...
However, wouldn't a really loving/caring partner say something? And I don't mean he'd sit her down one night and say "Babe. You're a real fattie and it makes me sick to look at that lumpy mess sloshing around while you're on top."
He could say "Babe. I've noticed some changes with your behavior lately and I'm trying to understand what is happening - you lost your job and seem to have medicated your feelings with food. It's not healthy physically or mentally. I think we could both do some stuff together to change this b/c this is an issue for me and we need to address it." Then he tells her to step away from the ice cream carton and asks her to go for a long walk.
My guy can sit me down and say that. I can, too. We've had those really uncomfortable conversations about the shit we all want to avoid. A little wine helps. But either way this needs to happen for people. Everyone avoids and denies really big things and they don't communicate properly.
This boyfriend gets a FAIL for being a little bit spineless. Sure, she should probably "get" that she is depressing and overweight and her apathy towards EVERYTHING is a big red flag. Maybe he's justified in why he doesn't want to get cuddly but if he intends to continue being her bf he needs to man up and quit being a pussy. TELL HER what is on your mind in a careful, caring way. Work through it. Both partners don't need to be on their A-Game 100% of the time - you can shift the responsibility of "Reality Checker" between each other depending on who is in a better mental place at the time.
They are both miserable. Ugh.
Gretchen at March 24, 2010 2:13 PM
My guess is he will dump her if she doesn't get her shit together, and if she does, then she will dump him." - Prickly
And isn't that a bit sad, and perhaps unnecessary?
This problem has been a YEAR in the making - and neither one of them could muster up the guts and words to have a serious discussion or contemplate on their own part of the mess?
They're failing each other miserably when they could be really doing something with their relationship...they could use each other for support to get through it instead of stewing in resentment
Gretchen at March 24, 2010 2:17 PM
Thank you for your honesty. I just started following you on Twitter today after picking up your book this week; it already has me howling with laughter, as did this blog. There is this culture in America of sizeism being a bad thing, but there are many instances where it's entirely appropriate. Howard Stern came under scrutiny last week for saying what most other people would only permit themselves to think about Gabourey Sidibe. She is beyond unhealthy, yet it's not ok to scrutinize her weight? We have created this culture of political correctness because we are too lazy to change ourselves.
janessadawn at March 24, 2010 2:24 PM
I agree, Gretchen and BUTO. He could've done something or said something about this in a loving, affectionate manner. Yet, apparently, he's content to punish her (and himself - what a genius!) by not kissing, touching, or having sex for a year.
That's not normal. Healthy men don't go for a year without sex if they're under 60, and, as Irlandes proves, there's little reason to, even then.
He either has hormonal issues, is secretly gay, or sleeping around.
But this isn't all about her weight. If it is, and he's simply being punitive, freezing her out while saying, "No, I don't want to break up!", then he's got some real passive-aggressive/control issues going on.
lovelysoul at March 24, 2010 2:31 PM
What else will he passively-agressively pull back affection over?
Yes. His reaction is just childish. "Since I have to look at your jiggly ass, I'm going to withhold affection until you put down the Doritos. So there1"
MonicaP at March 24, 2010 2:39 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704142">comment from janessadawnThank you for your honesty. I just started following you on Twitter today after picking up your book this week; it already has me howling with laughter, as did this blog.
Thank you so much, janessadawn! Where did you hear about my book? Or did you just see it in a bookstore?
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 2:50 PM
True Gretchen, it is sad. Communicating about their relationship (and I can feel guys shuddering at the thought from here) is absolutely necessary, or this couple is doomed.
Or maybe guys don't shy away from relationship talks these days. I'm out of the loop--have things changed? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
Pricklypear at March 24, 2010 2:51 PM
I think “is it normal for a man to withdraw all affection when his partner gains weight?" is a red herring. “Blah blah blah”, can cover a LOT of ground. Her comments about loving no matter what and forgiveness seem to point to other issues. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the BF doesn’t really care about the weight gain.
The relationship may have simply run its course but the LW would rather focus on her weight, rather than the other things that could be wrong that they should deal with, as that makes him the bad (shallow) guy.
I’d suggest the LW sit down with the BF and hash it out. Maybe she’ll discover his lack of desire is not because she’s packed on the pounds, but that she’s become an unmotivated, lazy bore and he hates it.
Miss Anthropic at March 24, 2010 3:16 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704147">comment from Miss AnthropicThe weight, and the notion that men "should" like you for what's inside, and never mind that it's a little hard to find in all that fat, is the big issue. Whether she remains with this boyfriend or not.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 3:29 PM
One thing I'll point out here....I certainly have known women who have let themselves go out of complacency. But...I've also known married women who have gained weight in a manner that made them look as though they were blown up with a bicycle pump...who were then getting divorces a few years later after their husbands came out of the closet, or turned out to have long-term faithfulness issues that pre-dated the wife's weight gain. Sometimes people gain weight as a response to underlying tension in a relationship. Of course, that creates a vicious cycle, in that it tends to cause more tension, but the weight gain/relationship problems equation doesn't always start with the weight gain part.
Do I think this is the issue with the LW? Probably not...but it happens. Weight gain -- especially relatively sudden, dramatic weight gain -- can really, really be a case of people wearing their emotional baggage on the outside. Helpful to keep in mind.
However, I don't see fat men whining to everyone that will listen that chicks won't date them
Then you must know different guys from the ones I do -- I've heard more than a few men who desperately need to hit the gym/eat better/take care of themselves/dress appropriately wonder why hot chicks won't date them, concluding that it's because said hot chicks don't like "nice guys." Women aren't the only ones who fool themselves.
marion at March 24, 2010 6:57 PM
"The weight, and the notion that men "should" like you for what's inside, and never mind that it's a little hard to find in all that fat, is the big issue. Whether she remains with this boyfriend or not."
I'm sorry, Amy, but that sounds like an excuse for not giving good advice. I didn't quite see it until I re-read it, but not kissing, not touching, and not hugging the woman you supposedly love for a whole year is abnormal, and this woman was asking you whether it was normal. You gave her an incorrect answer. It IS abnormal.
His behavior is immature and weird. I don't know exactly what his problem is, but it's not her weight. Giving him a pass in this situation is wrong.
lovelysoul at March 24, 2010 8:02 PM
"Women aren't the only ones who fool themselves."
You got that right. I knew a guy who was always whining about not having a girlfriend. He wasn't inclined to change anything about himself. He wanted a girl who would take him as he was.
Unfortunately, "as he was" included a big gut that was always showing below the hem of his ill-fitting shirts, greasy hair, bad skin and feet that were so rank no one would let him take his shoes off around them. No one. And in case your wondering, yes, we had tried to tell him. He refused to change, so he stayed lonely.
Maybe he could have found a woman if he had been rich enough, but he had no money either. It's too bad because he was actually very intelligent and clever in a snarky sort of way. Sort of like a nicer, fat, unwashed Sheldon (Big Bang Theory).
Pricklypear at March 24, 2010 8:13 PM
lovelysoul, I wonder if we're really getting the whole story from this one point of view. I also was wondering about the boyfriend's behavior, but then I thought, as others did, that it's really, really strange for a man to go a year without sex and still tell his girlfriend he doesn't want to break up. It seems to me like she is exaggerating for effect. It also seems like she may have been ignoring his attempts at conversations on the subject. She is really playing the sympathy card with Amy, asking if it's normal for a man to withdraw his affection if his partner gains weight. Ta-da! It's not her problem anymore, it's his! He's the one not being affectionate! Even in seeking advice, the LW is so self-centered that even though she admits she has a hand in the problem, it's really his fault, because you should love someone as she is.
This is all just my take on the information we have. I know LW and Amy have had more conversations, and LW wrote back saying that she got the kick in the pants she needed. I don't think the boyfriend deserves a pass, and I seriously doubt Amy does, but she can't do anything about the boyfriend's behavior. Amy can only advise those who write to her. Had boyfriend written, she would have given him different advice based on his experience in this relationship. I think it's kind of funny that you are chiding Amy for giving a supposedly "incorrect" answer to a question. I know you've been on this board for a while, long enough to know that Amy doesn't always address the question asked, as that is sometimes not the real issue.
NumberSix at March 24, 2010 8:19 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704189">comment from lovelysoulAmy, but that sounds like an excuse for not giving good advice. I didn't quite see it until I re-read it, but not kissing, not touching, and not hugging the woman you supposedly love for a whole year is abnormal, and this woman was asking you whether it was normal.
Wrong question.
Also you can only change your behavior.
Amy Alkon at March 24, 2010 8:25 PM
Booyah! Thank you Amy for having the courage to tell the truth. I'm tired of hearing women complaining about how their boyfriends or husbands dislike the fact they they got fat and lazy once they were roped into a relationship. Especially when they refuse to date a man who only makes slightly less money, never mind a man who is substantially poorer then them.
Mike Hunter at March 24, 2010 9:31 PM
There are probably a lot of comments worth discussing here, but Marion's caught the eye first...
> I've heard more than a few men who desperately
> need to hit the gym/eat better/take care of
> themselves/dress appropriately wonder why hot
> chicks won't date them
Maybe it's the luck of the draw, but I've never heard any fat guys complain like that, at least not while simultaneously...
> ...concluding that it's because said
> hot chicks don't like "nice guys."
But I've heard plenty of SKINNY guys, reasonably normal ones, complain like that.... And it's a stupid complaint. The guys who conclude that they're too nice are giving themselves too much credit. They're not "nice", they're just manipulative and wimpy. I think women hate that, even if they're young and haven't done any dating themselves... They get enough of that shit from their girlfriends. It's not that they're enchanted by confidence or made drunk by rude masculinity, it's that they know the stink of insincerity.
I've seen plenty of women put up with some extra pounds on a guy, and a lot of other faults, so long as he relate to them –and maybe excite them– in an emotionally straightforward way. But "nice guy" pretense is a deal-breaker at any weight.
And (in my social circles, anyway) fat guys seem to know it's not just weight... It's a whole pattern of behaviors that women aren't going to want to put up with. Not just weight, but lethargy and video games and all the rest.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at March 25, 2010 1:00 AM
I don't think "punishing" is the right word. I think he actively resents the weight gain, and more importantly, the mindset that made her think it was okay to gain the weight.
He likely feels he's been suckered...and he probably has. The LW seems to think that she has to maintain a decent figure when she's on the prowl. But now that the guy's moved in, she can fill her face however she wants.
It doesn't work that way, folks.
A co-worker of mine was pissed at her husband, because once they tied the knot he stopped showing the outward signs of affection and stopped saying "I love you."
So, I asked her, "You want your husband to be more sensitive and caring. Is that it?"
She nodded as if to say, "Of course."
"The reason you don't meet guys like that is because guys like that already have boyfriends."
I tried to look at this link, http://community.livejournal.com/cf_abby_tribute/236103.html , but it's gone. Apparently Amy made her displeasure felt and they removed the entry. Sorry I missed it.
As I known for years, Amy does not take kindly to people posting her entire column, rather than excerpting it and posting a link to the article on her webpage.
I remember once I was doing a Google search about Amy to pad her Wikipedia entry and I happened to find a blog entry called "Five Rounds With The Advice Goddess," about a column that...wouldn't you know it?...is about this very topic. A woman gained weight after having two kids, and her husband kept buying her dresses in her former dress size. She however, "accepted" her new look and wanted to know how to make her husband (how to make anyone do anything is a pointless question) see that this was the way it was going to be from now on.
Amy, predictably, said that the weight needs to come off, since that's the only flexible variable in the equation.
This woman took issue with Amy's suggestion and had about five contentious email exchanges with Amy, and posted them, column and all, in her blog.
I sent it to Amy, and she took it from there. I wasn't expecting that reaction. I just thought the exchange was funny. But knowing how Amy feels about this issue, I will make sure that she knows if someone posts her entire column. (By the way, Amy, how long can the excerpts be? Is there a word or sentence count limit?)
Her response to Amy was funny. "I don't know what one of your blog commenters was doing rooting around in my three year old archives!" or something like that. Goodness, I cyber-violated the poor woman. I'm a cyber-rapist!
Blame Google. I wasn't rooting around in her archives. I was doing a Google search and it showed up.
Patrick at March 25, 2010 2:43 AM
I wrote: flexible variable
It's redundant! Shame on me!
Patrick at March 25, 2010 4:29 AM
The Goddess Writes:
Also you can only change your behavior.
I've said this before but if more people realized this, advice columnists would be out of work. "How do I get him to..."
You can hold a gun to his head, I suppose. But if you want to restrict this options you can legally exercise, I can't think of one.
Patrick at March 25, 2010 4:35 AM
Interesting how lovelysoul puts this back on the guy, and wants to explore his blameworthiness.
The guy's flaw appears to be timidity: he should have told her she is no longer attractive to him. She already knows that, however, so that is not news.
His second mistake was not dumping her once it was clear she is not interested in losing weight to keep him.
The letter writer could have raised the "I'm fat now, and you don't want me" issue or walked out too, so timidity seems a common flaw here.
And since it is her weight, not his timidity, that is the problem, how is he to blame for again?
Spartee at March 25, 2010 5:31 AM
It all comes back to "only YOU can change your behavior". You can't change other people, you can only change how you yourself behave (and react to others). My weight has been fluctuating somewhat since hitting menopause, and even though I'm a little heavier (about 15 lbs) than I want to be right now, my BF still hugs and kisses me. All the time. Of course, it helps that I'm going to the gym regularly! But I still think if the LW's boyfriend is witholding physical affection "just because" of her weight, there's some other factor(s) involved. I think he's gettin' some elsewhere.
Flynne at March 25, 2010 5:34 AM
I just hadn't read it that way before. The first time, I thought the advice was right on. But I hadn't notice the year part. That's a long time for anyone to withdraw affection.
And, rather than look at that, we all gave her the advice that she just needs to be sexier for her man, which seems kind of like 50's style advice, now I that I think about it. "It's your fault. Just be sexier and cuter, and he'll love you again." Not what's wrong with a guy that won't even hug you for a year?
Maybe she is exaggerating. I hope so because any guy that would withold affection for that long and to that degree over weight will likely do it over other things too, whether she loses the weight or not.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 5:51 AM
The guys who conclude that they're too nice are giving themselves too much credit. They're not "nice", they're just manipulative and wimpy.
Oh, I agree. I am, in fact, married to a recovered "nice guy." :) (At least, he tells me he was once a "nice guy" -- by the time we met, he had gotten himself past that stage.) I'll refine what I said before: Maybe it's just the circles I run in, but I have never known a straight guy to comment spontaneously on the fine details of the appearance of another guy before. (I say "fine details" to exclude situations in which the "another guy" is heavily tattooed, wearing a clown costume, etc. etc.) Female friends might tell you it's time for a makeover. Guy friends won't (except perhaps gay guy friends.) Women aren't the only ones who want to be accepted as they are.
I know plenty of people who aren't skinny who are happily paired up with partners who adore them; I also know plenty of slim people who are single. Unless you're 300 pounds, it's typically not just the weight that's keeping you from getting a significant other...but the weight is often tied up with other issues that turn others off for reasons that having nothing to do with pounds.
A co-worker of mine was pissed at her husband, because once they tied the knot he stopped showing the outward signs of affection and stopped saying "I love you."
So, I asked her, "You want your husband to be more sensitive and caring. Is that it?"
She nodded as if to say, "Of course."
"The reason you don't meet guys like that is because guys like that already have boyfriends."
Gee, Patrick, that's good to know. I'll be sure to tell my husband, father and happily married male friends that they may think they're straight, but they're really gay, because they regularly show their spouses signs of affection and say "I love you." Seriously, in your opinion, only gay guys continue to say "I love you" after they get married? A guy who's affectionate before marriage and turns it off after marriage isn't pulling a bait and switch? Uh huh. Got it.
marion at March 25, 2010 6:02 AM
"A co-worker of mine was pissed at her husband, because once they tied the knot he stopped showing the outward signs of affection and stopped saying "I love you."
This is the male equivalent of putting on 40 pds. If we're not going to allow excuses for women to let themselves go, then guys shouldn't get any either.
No one should become lazy in a relationship. They're hard enough to keep going well even when both people are trying.
Guys, you can't stop being affectionate and romantic. I mean, you CAN, if you want to get divorced, but otherwise, you need to still kiss, hug, say, "I love you", and occassionally bring flowers for no reason. That's a lot easier than losing 40 pds, so you can do it.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 6:04 AM
lovelysoul: What is wrong with 50's style advice? Maybe it makes alot more sense than you trying to blame the guy (patriarchy) on the LW's problem.
If that were my girlfriend, two things would have happened: one, I would have let her know a long time before 40 pounds that she was about to be kicked to the curb, and two, I would have kicked her to the curb.
I'm sorry to tell all of you feminists out there that most men do not like fat women!!! Do you get it? We have the right to like what we want, and most of us don't want fat women. If you don't like it, that is your opinion, but you won't change biology because you think its mean. Wailing and gnashing your teeth about it won't change anything either...Remember, in this age of absolutely no accountability for actions we can do whatever the hell we want.
And, as I've said before, most guys don't like the rail-thin model types. They like women with curves, but not fat.
So quit blaming the guy. She is lucky he didn't dump her already. Lose some weight and then see if that works...if not, well, at least you are skinny again and can easily find another guy.
Geez...no wonder American women are the least sought after in the whole world!
mike at March 25, 2010 6:09 AM
I bet you wouldn't defend this in reverse, Mike. If we said, "Women want rich, successful men. He lost his job. Don't kiss him, hug him, or have sex with him until he brings home some money, and, if he doesn't, go out and find yourself a richer guy!"
Is any of this what love is supposed to be about? Our genes and biology control only so much. It may explain why we are attracted or not, but it doesn't excuse either gender for being cold and heartless.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 6:23 AM
"If we said, 'Women want rich, successful men. He lost his job. Don't kiss him, hug him, or have sex with him until he brings home some money, and, if he doesn't, go out and find yourself a richer guy!'"
I often joke that unemployed *women* will still get dates at about the same rate they did while employed. Men? Not so much. Take from that what you will.
I was just yesterday dining with a business associate. His wife left him when he went from a millionaire to broke in three years' time. She withdrew affection for nine months (and likely started up with someone else) prior to the break up.
Our mutual--quite male, I think--reaction to the situation? We shook our heads, shrugged, and simply accepted that is what the gal was all about, and we moved on to discussing business matters. No long drawn out, "Why can't she love you broke like she loved you rich?" We knew why.
So yeah, I may not defend her, but neither do I spend time hollering about that woman's perfidious, fickle heart. It just is how it was made.
Spartee at March 25, 2010 6:39 AM
Yes, Spartee, but the whole point of finding a good partner is to find one without a "perfidious, fickle heart".
Many relationships are based solely on looks or money, but they almost always fail. That may be why your friend wasn't surprised. It was a business deal, not true love.
My fiance makes considerably less money than I do. He's tall and good-looking though. No question that attracted me, so evolution was at work. But now, after over two years together, I deeply love him because of who he is. If he became ill or put on weight or lost his hair or shrank a few inches, I'd still be there.
I mean, most of those things will happen anyway if you stay together long enough. They shouldn't be the whole basis of a relationship.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 6:59 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704275">comment from lovelysoulOur genes and biology control only so much. It may explain why we are attracted or not,
So, you think that the guy, likely repulsed by her weight gain, should have acted otherwise? (Which would likely have kept her of the mind that it's okay to blow up on a guy -- that a guy should just deal?)
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 7:01 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704276">comment from lovelysoulMany relationships are based solely on looks or money, but they almost always fail.
Ah, but we're not talking about relationships solely based on anything. That's the way people writing me hate mail try to come at it: "But, looks aren't all that matter!" No, of course not, but they matter a hell of a lot to men. And if you're a really rich guy who loses his job and has to work as a barrista, don't be surprised if the woman you're with bolts.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 7:03 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704277">comment from lovelysoulA co-worker of mine was pissed at her husband, because once they tied the knot he stopped showing the outward signs of affection and stopped saying "I love you." This is the male equivalent of putting on 40 pds.
It's actually not. That would be the guy quitting his job and lazing around all day. (Men and women are different, and are driven to prioritize different things.)
Changing substantially from the person the other person got together with is, however, a sort of romantic breach of contract.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 7:04 AM
Spartee: Vile as the ex-wife was, at least she left him. This guy doesn't even have the nerve to do that much. He has made them "just friends" without the benefit of letting her find someone else.
I'm sure we're not getting the whole story here. And none of this excuses her gaining 40 pounds. But women are told that to maintain a happy relationship, we have to maintain a physical relationship (put out), and I agree with this. Physicality is important. Women who recognize that men need sex for both physical and emotional reasons have sex when they have a headache, when they're tired, when they just don't feel like it, etc. Not doing so puts a tremendous strain on relationships. Why does this guy get a pass from expressing even non-sexual affection just because he doesn't feel like it? She needs to be hugged and kissed and touched. He doesn't need to be sexually attracted to her to do those things.
Again, if he can't bring himself to do even the small things, he doesn't love her anymore and needs to break up.
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 7:05 AM
Yeah, interesting how this has morphed into a blame-the-guy fest. Why has he not had an honest talk with her? Judging from her letter, probably because she foreclosed that conversation with her "you should love me for what's inside" speech. Why is he no longer affectionate with her? Could be because, if she's thrown in the towel on everything else, she maybe had thrown in the towel on personal hygiene too. Do you want to get all huggy-kissy with someone who smells and has greasy hair? Not me.
As for the "is he getting it somewhere else" question: Could be. However, it could also be that he's lost his desire on account of everything. I can tell you from personal experience that having a SO go wonky on you as soon as you're committed to the relationship can be a real kick in the balls. It makes you doubt your own judgment, and you start to see all members of the opposite sex as the enemy. Under those conditions, gettin' some goes way down the list.
Cousin Dave at March 25, 2010 7:05 AM
So, you think that the guy, likely repulsed by her weight gain, should have acted otherwise? (Which would likely have kept her of the mind that it's okay to blow up on a guy -- that a guy should just deal?)
No Amy, not saying that at all, but couldn't the LW's boyfriend have started saying he was concerned about her weight gain and offered to help her lose it before he started witholding his affection? I mean, my BF pinches my butt and says "hey babe, hit the gym with me tonight, 'k?" and I go. I mean, he tells me he loves me, and cares about me and wants to help me, so he does.
Flynne at March 25, 2010 7:06 AM
No, Amy. I think if he loved her, he would tell her that he was worried about her health, and he would go for walks with her...shop for some healthier food...SUPPORT her in losing the weight.
It's not a good sign for him to withdraw all affection...no kisses, no hugs even. How does that help? Would you expect Greg to act that way?
If my guy acted that way, I would see it as a clear sign that he doesn't truly love me...that it's all about my looks.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 7:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704283">comment from FlynneFlynne, this isn't a letter from the guy, but from the girl. There's no such thing as "should," only what is and what isn't.
She can't change his behavior, only her own. And if she wishes to be attractive to men, and have the optimal choice of men (not only choose from guys who can't get thinner women or men who fetishize fat) she'll take off the weight.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 7:09 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704286">comment from lovelysoulthink if he loved her, he would tell her that he was worried about her health, and he would go for walks with her...shop for some healthier food...SUPPORT her in losing the weight.
Well, he hasn't.
And this has bearing on how she needs to take off 40 pounds and not buy into the claptrap that somebody "should" lust after her how?
Me? I don't need a man to tell me that I need to take a shower and look cute before he comes over, and dress sexy and not gain lots of weight. Of course, I'm not a feminist -- I'm a realist.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 7:10 AM
Yeah, I got that, Amy. What I'm saying is, if the guy loved her before she started gaining weight, why couldn't he have told her that when he first noticed it, instead withdrawing his affection? Or were they not all that affectionate to begin with?
Flynne at March 25, 2010 7:12 AM
Flynne, this isn't a letter from the guy, but from the girl.
I grew up in an Italian Catholic family. There's enough criticism for everyone in my heart.
Part of her question was, is it is normal for a man to withdraw all affection when his partner gains weight? It is normal -- if he doesn't love her. If she loses the weight, he may become more physically affectionate, but he still doesn't love her.
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 7:13 AM
What MonicaP said, Amy. That's what I'm getting at. If he loved her, he'd tell her. And probably mention that she should hit the gym with him. If she doesn't or won't, yeah, that's her fault, but if her BF really cared about her, and expressed that, wouldn't that sorta push her into losing that weight?
Flynne at March 25, 2010 7:17 AM
She doesn't have to buy into anything. She should lose the weight.
But I would also advise her to lose this self-absorbed jerk who can't even hug her without being asked. I wouldn't tell her to sex herself all up for him because he doesn't sound worth it. That's not why she should lose the weight...to please some guy who's not even being affectionate towards her.
She should lose the weight and the guy, then find somebody who is more emotionally mature and supportive.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 7:17 AM
I love how she's suddenly gone from just being overweight to smelly and greasy too. Nothing has been alleged about this. All in an effort to excuse his lack of affection.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 7:21 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704295">comment from FlynneYour partner isn't always going to tell you, "Hey, fatty, or hey whatever the problem is, fix this." He apparently didn't.
"Is this normal" is a way of excusing herself for packing on the pounds.
And whether something is "normal" isn't a good barometer of anything. My relationship with my boyfriend isn't "normal" -- we've been together seven-plus years, have no intention of getting married, and do not live together. This isn't "normal," but it works for us. If your relationship doesn't work for you, you leave. If your relationship (and any future relationships) will likely be negatively affected by your packing on 40 pounds, you take them off or accept the consequences.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 7:23 AM
I love how she's suddenly gone from just being overweight to smelly and greasy too. Nothing has been alleged about this. All in an effort to excuse his lack of affection.
I hear she gets it on with farm animals, too. And kicks puppies. And steals from homeless people.
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 7:26 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704299">comment from MonicaPAgain, this isn't about him.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 7:29 AM
Amy, if something occurred that changed your appearance, made you less sexy to Greg, you still wouldn't expect him to completely pull away...not kiss you or hug you. You would never stand for that...and you would immediately recognize that he doesn't actually love you.
Ultimately, our appearance will change. You try to keep yourself as youthful and sexy-looking as you can for each other, for as long as you can, but the ravages of time will eventually steal that away from you both. Hopefully, there's more to the relationship than just that.
This guy is clearly telling the LW that sex is all that's there for him. He doesn't love her.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 7:36 AM
Again, this isn't about him.
Totally. I have no problem with your advice that she needs to work on herself. If I were here friend, though, I would also encourage her to look at her relationship and decide whether she wants to be with someone who doesn't seem to love her. But you're not her friend, and I think your advice is sound.
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 7:38 AM
Look, the total withdrawal of affection bit sounded strange to me too. But we don't know what else is going on. Maybe he tentatively broached the subject of "you're starting to put on a little weight honey" and got smacked down. Maybe he's just a bit too comfortable with a live-in housekeeper and can do without sex. Maybe he's just a complete prick. Maybe he has a bit on the side. Who knows? All I know is most guys will still go for the occasional leg-over when it's available even if it's a bit on the chubby side - but that isn't a guarantee, emotional factors can complicate that too. I think she's either exaggerating his lack of affection or he's tried to talk to her about it, been clobbered with the "love me for who I am, not who I was" stick, and given up. For some reason (see above for options) he's sticking around. Maybe he hasn't been an angel here, but her options boil down to two choices
1. He's lost interest and is too gutless to leave. Ok, time to lose weight given you'll be on the market soon. Learn to communicate with a partner so you don't spend a year in this situation.
2. He cares enough to wait even though he is no longer physically attracted to you. So lose the weight to keep him, talk to him about what's going on, try to find out why the intimacy has gone.
See how no matter what his opinion is her response is te same?
Ltw at March 25, 2010 7:50 AM
Amy, if something occurred that changed your appearance, made you less sexy to Greg, you still wouldn't expect him to completely pull away...not kiss you or hug you. You would never stand for that...and you would immediately recognize that he doesn't actually love you.
Lovelysoul, that's an interesting point. I'm in a position where I want something very similar to Amy and Gregg's relationship - I don't want to live with someone again, don't want marriage or kids, but still want the intimacy of a regular partner. It sounds perfect. But the problem is I'm 36, most women my age are tick tick ticking and I don't want to waste their time when I know I can't deliver what they want. So I have to go younger or older it seems. I have no problem with either and have crushes in both directions.
But I accept upfront that there is probably a time limit on a relationship like that. It is a significant change from the traditional concept of "till death do us part".
So what are the limits? What happens when I get old (in the case of the 21 year old I was dating) or when she gets old (the 50 year old I wanted to date)? Do the same rules apply? Or is "five years then we'll see" acceptable in this situation? Is that still love? Is it ok to modify your vows to "as long as we still find each other attractive" and still say you love someone? After all, you can break up with someone and still care about them.
Amy, I would be most interested in your opinion, but I understand it might be a little too personal - don't want to pry!
Ltw at March 25, 2010 8:12 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704319">comment from lovelysoulAmy, if something occurred that changed your appearance, made you less sexy to Greg, you still wouldn't expect him to completely pull away...not kiss you or hug you.
I think Gregg would still love me if I chunked up, but he probably wouldn't be very attracted to me. Whatever his response would be, there isn't a normal or not normal -- there's only how I choose to respond to his response. I find it disrespectful and unloving to let yourself go.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 8:13 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704321">comment from LtwBut I accept upfront that there is probably a time limit on a relationship like that. It is a significant change from the traditional concept of "till death do us part". So what are the limits? What happens when I get old (in the case of the 21 year old I was dating) or when she gets old (the 50 year old I wanted to date)? Do the same rules apply? Or is "five years then we'll see" acceptable in this situation? Is that still love? Is it ok to modify your vows to "as long as we still find each other attractive" and still say you love someone? After all, you can break up with someone and still care about them. Amy, I would be most interested in your opinion, but I understand it might be a little too personal - don't want to pry!
Some people will stay in a relationship because they're lazy or because they know they won't do well on the open market. The economist Robert H. Frank talks in Passions Within Reason about love as a commitment device - that love can cause you to stay even if there's a better offer, appearance-wise or otherwise, right next door.
What I realize is that there are no guarantees. I never planned to be with anyone this long, nor did I think I would be. The reality is, things get boring -- with most people. I got lucky. Because I wasn't willing to settle, I was single for about eight years, for the most part, and available when I met Gregg. I find him endlessly entertaining and interesting, and very wise, and a great person, and I respect and admire him (I think this is especially important). I can't see being without him. But, I think my acceptance that things end, or are likely to end, makes me a better partner, and also, less likely to stay in a thing that's dead.
Things are really tough now financially because so many newspapers have gone out of business, but I've never expected anybody but me to support me, and this gives me a lot of freedom. There's no temptation to stay with somebody because I'd have to move out of their big house and find some tiny apartment somewhere.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 8:21 AM
Amy, you are lucky - and realistic. Here's hoping the end never comes, but if it turns out to be better for both of you that you do what needs to be done.
I respect and admire him
The most important thing for a relationship between equals, I agree.
Ltw at March 25, 2010 8:38 AM
"I find it disrespectful and unloving to let yourself go."
I do too. I would never purposely let my appearance change for the worst, and my fiance wouldn't either. He works out for himself - whether he's in a relationship or not. I also work to stay in shape, whether I'm with a guy or not. I just feel healthier that way.
So, it seems to me that losing weight just to keep or attract a man won't last. The real question is why the LW feels that 40 pds is acceptable, or why she let herself get that way in the first place. It's cliche, but she should really want to change it for herself more than anyone else.
This is a touchy issue for relationships because I think we all want it to be the way it is with you and Gregg. He would still love you, even if he wouldn't be as attracted to you. I feel that way about my guy too. He wouldn't leave me, or pull away emotionally, if I gained 40 pds. I honestly think he'd try to help me work through it.
Ltw, you want to find (and be) someone that has the emotional maturity to realize that nobody gets everything they want out of a relationship all the time. Ultimately, we all get old and unattractive, but that doesn't mean we bail out.
That said, I personally would not recommend trying to have a relationship with a very broad age difference. The odds are against them. It's better if you're reaching the same stages of life around the same time. Someone younger, particularly, will not be as empathetic with the physical changes that aging brings and probably won't stick with you for the long haul.
I was 15 years younger than my ex, and I didn't mind at first when he was 30ish and I was 20ish, but when he was in his 50s, and I was still in my 30s, it seemed like a much bigger gap. There were moments when I felt like I was around "old people" all the time, and I lusted for men my own age.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 8:48 AM
Ltw, you want to find (and be) someone that has the emotional maturity to realize that nobody gets everything they want out of a relationship all the time.
That's why it's important to have a strong circle of friends. When your gf/bf just doesn't understand what you're talking about in some area you think is important, you can find support without detonating your relationship.
That said, I personally would not recommend trying to have a relationship with a very broad age difference.
I think this is true if you're looking for a relationship based on friendship. My grandparents were 33 years apart, which sounds creepy now (and was creepy enough then to get my grandmother a beating from her own mother), and I doubt they spent time talking about shared experiences, but they weren't looking for that.
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 8:58 AM
"Spartee: Vile as the ex-wife was, at least she left him."
Actually, no. She turned into a screaming shrew who refused to touch him. She berated him publicly, privately and otherwise turned into something awful.
Eventually, he got the hint, packed his bags, kissed his kids goodbye, and moved into an apartment. She then sued for divorce--after telling everyone he left her--demanding he pay monthly support at millionaire levels, knowing he was broke and could not pay it.
"Go find more money," was pretty much her attitude, even though she no longer was his wife.
It is a very strange culture we have, at present.
Spartee at March 25, 2010 9:07 AM
"Amy, if something occurred that changed your appearance,..."
Quit the passive voice bullshit. "something occurred" is a dodge, like the letter writers' cancer trope This woman kept eating, knows that it likely turned her SO off, and yet wants *him* to get over it. Fuck that. She needs to address the primary problem: too much food in her mouth and too much ass on the couch too often.
This is not a "something occurred", where some force imposed some condition on her. This is "I don't give a shit enough to change--love me anyway" choice she is making and imposing on him. He gets no say in her weight, it seems.
Okay, she is making her choice daily about her weight. He gets to react. Her "I don't give a shit" rarely flies in long term relationships. You can get away with it for a while, depending on the patience and level of attachment. But eventually....
That is true if you are talking about fat or unemployed or drunk or inconsiderate. Him pulling away physically is likely a reflection of him pulling away emotionally. That is how romantic attachement ("love") typically dies in a situation like this.
That makes him...human.
Spartee at March 25, 2010 9:18 AM
It is a very strange culture we have, at present.
She sounds like a winner -- in the sense that she sucks as a human being.
My fiance's wife cheated on him and left him when he was unemployed for a few months. Not sure it was the money -- just that he was using the energy he normally poured into keeping her happy into looking for a job. Her loss, my gain.
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 9:20 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704338">comment from SparteeRight on, Spartee. She didn't get cancer. She got Twinkies.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 9:21 AM
Totally off topic (well, maybe not):
A farmer walks into the bedroom carrying a sheep in his arms and says,"Honey, this is the cow I make love to when you have a headache."
The wife, lying in bed reading a book, looks up and replies,"If you weren't such an idiot, you'd know that's a sheep, not a cow."
The guy replies back, "If you weren't such a presumptuous bitch, you'd realize I was talking to the sheep."
o.O
Flynne at March 25, 2010 9:28 AM
There's no question she did this to herself, stupidly on all levels. But I still think his reaction now is indicative of what his reaction would be if it were cancer, not just Twinkies. If someone shows you that they're that emotionally tuned out when they're not getting exactly what they want from you, then there's something very wrong.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 9:29 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704347">comment from lovelysoulThere's no question she did this to herself, stupidly on all levels. But I still think his reaction now is indicative of what his reaction would be if it were cancer, not just Twinkies.
You can think that, and maybe he would react that way if she had cancer. But, it's not the point. This girl let herself pack on pounds, and has wrongheaded notions about male sexuality.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 9:47 AM
"But I still think his reaction now is indicative of what his reaction would be if it were cancer, not just Twinkies."
I think most people make a distinction between those two instances, and will as a result treat sick S.O.s differently.
You want to say this guy is a tool? Okay, you can have your opinion. My view is her tooldom is the problem here; his behavior is poor mainly in that he seems indecisive about finishing off what she messed up.
And again, is her mouth broken so she cannot say, "I noticed you don't hug me anymore. Let's discuss this frankly. I gained weight. I think this bothers you, and I will try to lose it. Help me?"
Nah. She knows what the issue is. She knows what the fix is. She just wants him to let her off the hook.
People will love their family members and close friends, fat or thin. If she wants to be his friend, then don't worry about the weight, and break off the romantic attachment. If she wants to be his lover, however, then break out the running shoes. That is the price of having his lust. If she is unwilling to pay it, game over. They can still be close friends, though, if that is what she wants. I doubt that her love for him allows that, though. Does that mean her attachment is shallow and superficial? I don't think so.
Generally, when you are the one screwing up the love affair, you are best advised to be the one leading the charge to fix things while you can. Bitching to third parties about how your SO needs to accept things you are doing, because they should loooooooooooove you anyway, is a really poor way to keep S.O.s around.
But she knows that, I think. She just wants to blame him when this finally ends.
Spartee at March 25, 2010 10:03 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704352">comment from SparteeThat is the price of having his lust.
There's a common flaw in women's thinking that I try to correct: "If you loved me you'd lust after me," is essentially what they believe. Nuh-uh. Doesn't work that way. I get countless letters from men who love their wives to pieces and want to want them, but just can't, many packed on pounds later.
Amy Alkon at March 25, 2010 10:14 AM
I also suspect that she is exaggerating his lack of affection. This situation would have come to a head already if he were really so distance.
As for some of the comments regarding American women, I agree that the reputation of American women is often negative, but much of this derives from American media. This is where you get the image of a super self absorbed neurotic American girl.
I like American women. They can be kind of neurotic, but they are not nearly as bad as they are portrayed to be.
Martin at March 25, 2010 10:28 AM
This has gotten crazy. He should have kicked her out and left her in the street, depressed and penniless. Instead he physically withdraws while still financially supporting her. "If he loved her he would have blah blah blah". What about her? Why does she get a pass on what SHE should have been doing for the past 2 years if she loved HIM?
Cam at March 25, 2010 10:56 AM
" Instead he physically withdraws while still financially supporting her."
I assumed he needed her $ in some way to pay rent or otherwise keep things calm in his life, and that is why he is still there. Or he really likes her as a person, and enjoys her company, but just doesn't like the feeling of her new body, hence his physical avoidance.
Maybe a mixture of the two. But then, she is unemployed, so unless she is doing a lot of housework, her $ contribution is likely minimal. So we are back to the "really good friends, just no benefits" theory I suppose.
Spartee at March 25, 2010 11:00 AM
> Look, the total withdrawal of affection
> bit sounded strange to me too. But we
> don't know what else is going on.
This isn't withdrawal of affection, this is collapse. To call it a "withdrawal" is to fall into her side of a lover's quarrel. That's almost always a bad thing to do.
The thing about narcissists isn't just that they won't accept bad news about themselves. After all, a lot of us don't like receiving bad news on a personal level.
The problem with narcissists is that they won't accept unpleasant about anything. Because it makes them feel bad. And it's all about them.
My all-time favorite advice:
Be as decent as you can. Don’t believe without evidence. Treat things divine with marked respect, and don’t have anything to do with them. Do not trust humanity without collateral security, it will play you some scurvy trick. Remember that it hurts no one to be treated as an enemy entitled to respect until he prove himself a friend worthy of affection. Cultivate a taste for distasteful truths. And, finally, most important of all, endeavor to see things as they are, not as they ought to be. --Ambrose Bierce
Here's an unpleasant truth: Maybe her boyfriend doesn't like fucking fat chicks. Imagine a world where a woman who loves tall men suddenly found herself looking down on her husband's bald spot: Would she be expected to get horny for the little feller anyway?
(It's a little different with men, because their attractiveness is also about other things, like achievement and success... And in a confounding piece of anti-symmetry, this woman just lost her job, too.)
Sex --and by that I mean "fucking"-- is an exchange of feelings, not a gift of them. This guy may not be a prince, but the letter writer seems to be in the habit of manipulating the demons in world that hates her, hates her very much.
Amy understood that:
> Wrong question.
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at March 25, 2010 11:03 AM
One clarification: She says she "was" unemployed. Is she still unemployed?
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 11:12 AM
Spartee said "Our mutual--quite male, I think--reaction to the situation? We shook our heads, shrugged, and simply accepted that is what the gal was all about, and we moved on to discussing business matters. No long drawn out, "Why can't she love you broke like she loved you rich?" We knew why."
This is the huge difference that you have pointed out so well. A guy will simply say "oh well" and go find someone who does not care if he has no job and no money...he will not keep it going over and over. The females, on the other hand, will complain and whine and call their friends and join a support group for fat women.
Right on...
mike at March 25, 2010 11:20 AM
I heard this once, I'm not sure where, but it totally applies to relationships:
"Men marry a woman hoping she doesn't change, while women marry a man hoping he does change"
that pretty much sums it up when it comes to guys...
mike at March 25, 2010 11:24 AM
If he feels guilty about not being attracted to her because she's fat, what about the other reasons:
1. Because she's unemployed for a long time.
2. Is admittedly lazy.
3. Depressed and cranky
4. Low self image.
5. Selfish
And if not those please tell me what are legitamite female reasons for not being attracted to someone? Because most will say I just don't feel it anymore.
Joe at March 25, 2010 11:31 AM
Joe for the win!
Spartee at March 25, 2010 11:39 AM
The females, on the other hand, will complain and whine and call their friends and join a support group for fat women.
This has its advantages. I know more about what's going on the lives my fiance's friends than he does.
When he and his friends get together, they talk about politics and work and other nonpersonal things. When their wives and girlfriends and I talk, it's about our lives. The men seem to prefer it this way, since they get to hear all the latest news without having to talk to each other about it. My fiance said he was happy when he had a girlfriend again because it meant he got back in the loop of information.
The downside is that sometimes there's self-absorbed bitching.
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 11:40 AM
I have no patience with people who infer things that aren't said. They don't deserve any. If you're going to read into someone's instead of just reading them, especially when you're going to get all indignant and outraged about it, you deserve to be ridiculed for it. And I'm only to happy to do it.
Can you show me where I said he wasn't pulling a bait and switch? I'll save you the trouble. You can't because I didn't.
Can you show me where I said what he did was right or acceptable? Well, you can't do that, either. But don't let that stop you from claiming I justified his behavior.
On the contrary, he may not be the drippy, gushy kind of guy that spews "I love you" twenty times a day. And if that's the case, he shouldn't have tried to pass himself off as that way.
On the other hand, they did tie the knot. And if this isn't a deal-breaker for her (which is up to her to decide, not you, me or anyone else), she could learn to find her "I love yous" in more subtle ways. He's still with her, he takes her places she likes to go, and does things for her.
Any idiot can say "I love you." A myna bird can be taught to say I love you. I've even heard of some cats being able to say it. But it does take a certain degree of sincerity to pull it off.
And yes, you will find more gay men than straight men who are the verbally affectionate kind.
Patrick at March 25, 2010 11:42 AM
"(It's a little different with men, because their attractiveness is also about other things, like achievement and success...)"
I'd just like to say that achievement and success don't make men more attractive in a physical sense. Women will sleep with an unattractive wealthy man and pretend to enjoy it, but our physical lust isn't vastly different from yours. We still prefer to have sex with a good-looking well-built man (in a perfect world, he'd be rich too!). Money doesn't make us less likely to notice your bald spot or portruding gut and be equally repulsed.
The main difference is that, given the choice, more women will choose the security of a less attractive, yet financially secure, man over having hot sex. God helped us along by giving us the ability to fake orgasms.
lovelysoul at March 25, 2010 11:43 AM
Upon reviewing the ugliest passage, three points came to mind:
> I was unemployed, got lazy, blah,
> blah, blah.
She's not saying she LOST her job. She may never have had one, and she wouldn't have mentioned it unless she'd have agreed that it were important. So maybe this is her whisper-y way of saying she's never found her place in the world. And maybe the boyfriend knows this, and resents having to be the linchpin of (unearned, challenging) validation that makes her life worth living.
(Or, again, maybe he just doesn't like the big 'uns. I know, I know... But strange as it may seem, some men prefer scrawny, shapeless women. Can't understand it, m'self, but there it is: Maybe he just doesn't want to fuck her.)
(And that happens, even when men are young and horny. There are always women –fertile, seemingly appropriate women– who a man just does not want to fuck.)
(And here's the third parenthetical component of this sub-point, which I'm hammering home because it further demonstrates this woman's manipulation. She's acting on a implicit contract [of which there is no such thing]:
• This guy has a frequently erectile penis
• He's not fucking anyone else
• She wouldn't turn him down
Therefore, he should want to fuck her. Not because he'll enjoy it, but because she will. She's not concerned with his feelings, she's just leveraging his [imaginary] desperation for her own fulfillment.)
And then there's the "got lazy". What could that mean for someone who doesn't have kids or work... What's laziness in a context like that? All we know is something went downhill in her life (and her attitude), something which she wants to condense into two words.
And then we have the "blah, blah, blah". I take this to mean 'If I actually shared these thoughts with you, I know you'd reject them, so I'm pretending to save you a lot of time even while I continue to hold them close to my heart.'
I just don't like this woman very much. (Even though I do like some of the big ones.)
Y'know, this advice column thing is kinda fun. How's the market?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 25, 2010 11:49 AM
what are legitamite female reasons for not being attracted to someone?
All of those are legitimate female reasons for not being attracted to men, too. I wasn't really feeling it for my ex when he told me after two years of unemployment and sitting on his ass playing video games that I might just have to accept that he would never work again. Those traits are unappealing across the board.
And, as lovelsoul said, his beer gut is not hot just because he can afford to drink the really good beer.
MonicaP at March 25, 2010 11:50 AM
> our physical lust isn't vastly different from yours.
Women have less of it– Your fake orgasms are your own business.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 25, 2010 11:50 AM
Lovelysoul, Tom Leykis called. He wants his worldview back.
(Kidding, kind of.)
Spartee at March 25, 2010 11:54 AM
"The females, on the other hand, will complain and whine and call their friends and join a support group for fat women."
Guys have their own version, usually played out in front of HDTV with cold beer. The one selected as "counselor" usually has the best selection of premium sports channels.
The dumpee gets to bitch during the commercials until he's tired of listening to himself, and then everyone gangs up on the lack of F1 coverage as an underlying social ill that desperately needs to be rectified.
Yes, ladies, we really are that staggeringly simple-minded.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 25, 2010 12:23 PM
> The one selected as "counselor" usually has
> the best selection of premium sports channels.
Dude, I heart you.
> the lack of F1 coverage as an underlying social
> ill that desperately needs to be rectified.
Yeeeeeeeeeeesssss! And we need it in HD, too!
Dude, I like totally heart you. Who do you like in Albert Park this weekend?
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 25, 2010 12:43 PM
Crid: Therefore, he should want to fuck her. Not because he'll enjoy it, but because she will. She's not concerned with his feelings, she's just leveraging his [imaginary] desperation for her own fulfillment.)
How can he if he finds her repulsive?
Like I said before, her unattractiveness isn't just about the weight gain. It's that part of her brain that made it think it was okay to put on those forty pounds. It's actually a show of contempt for him. She's got him to say the I do, so she can go to hog heaven.
Which is probably as much a part of the disgust as the actual weight gain.
Patrick at March 25, 2010 12:54 PM
And then we have the "blah, blah, blah". I take this to mean 'If I actually shared these thoughts with you, I know you'd reject them, so I'm pretending to save you a lot of time even while I continue to hold them close to my heart.'
That annoyed the hell out of me, too. She's writing to Amy for advice on fixing her life, yet she can't share some of the pertinent details? This makes me think that a lot of the reason her relationship is in its current state is because she expects her boyfriend to read her mind so she doesn't have to share things with him. I think she may have expected him to tell her that he loves her new figure so he will have validated her choices, even though she herself is disgusted with them. Nothing will sink your self-esteem like anchoring it to someone else. At the same time, I would bet that she has been ignoring boyfriend's hints. The biggest hint-- his not wanting to have sex. She's just now thinking it's a problem after an entire year? I do think she may be exaggerating that point, but for a man to go off sex for a prolonged period is cause for alarm, no matter what the cause. She's been ignoring things for a while.
The dumpee gets to bitch during the commercials until he's tired of listening to himself, and then everyone gangs up on the lack of F1 coverage as an underlying social ill that desperately needs to be rectified.
Gog, I love you today.
NumberSix at March 25, 2010 8:10 PM
I think this is the weekend that the (British) Empire strikes back.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 25, 2010 9:01 PM
Was there another comment here a bit ago, or am I seeing things again?
NumberSix at March 25, 2010 11:42 PM
Dude, I like totally heart you. Who do you like in Albert Park this weekend?
Get a room, you two. Us high-minded, holier-than-thou heterosexuals don't want to be subjected to public displays of homosexuality! Smug, smug.
Patrick at March 26, 2010 3:46 AM
This reminds me of an incident years ago. At a bar, a rather large woman approached me and made some very obvious overtures. I politely turned her down. She turned indignant.
I then asked her why she picked me to approach and why she didn't choose the rather obese man sitting 20 feet away (who happened to be a very nice guy. He was just 200 lbs overweight.) She wouldn't answer.
But I knew the answer: I was thin and fit (from bartending and moving furniture seven days a week) and the other guy was...well...fat.
Ah, that double standard of personal attitudes. I'm supposed to accept her standards, but can have none of my own.
Jack at March 26, 2010 6:26 AM
Okay, I'm the person that wrote the letter to Amy, and I can see that things are getting a little out of hand, with people making assumptions and such. I understand, because the letter is actually an edited version of three different email exchanges. Here is the first letter I sent to Amy. Maybe this will help:
Hi Amy,
Okay, I get it. I have a boyfriend, and over the time I've known him (which is around two years), I've gained about 40 pounds. I was unemployed, I got a little lazy, blah blah blah...the point is, I know that I need to shed the weight if I'm going to be acceptable to him or anyone else. But here's my question: is it normal for a man to fully withdraw from every form of affection when his partner gains weight? I know that I'm a blob, and I've been hitting the gym and trying to get rid of the weight, but he won't even put his arm around me any more. He hasn't kissed me in over a year, and he'll hug me if I ask him but that's all. We haven't had sex in over a year. I don't understand why we haven't had sex for the longest time, and yet he would rather be celibate that actually touch me. I know that it seems as though he's cheating, but I have considered this possibility thoroughly (and I have been cheated on before. A few times) and I am certain that he has not been unfaithful, which he also swears to. Is this all my fault for not being more beautiful? And why doesn't he want to break up, even when I ask him if he wants to, or even when I threaten to leave him?
LW at March 26, 2010 6:45 AM
LW: Amy clearly has her own advice, and you wrote to her, not to me, but since you're here, here goes: The fact that your boyfriend has withdrawn all affection is a red flag. This does not sound like someone who loves you. Yet, he doesn't want to break up with you, so maybe he has reasons nobody here has considered.
Have you asked him why he doesn't touch/kiss you anymore?
At any rate, losing the weight is good advice. Then you can see whether his approach to you changes, and you can decide what to do from there -- and you'll be fit and feel attractive when you do.
MonicaP at March 26, 2010 6:54 AM
Thank you, LW, for sharing the full letter. I'm glad some of us caught on to how odd it is that your boyfriend withdrew all physical affection for a year. That isn't normal, and although you should lose the weight, and I'm glad you're taking steps to do so, my guess is that your weight loss won't fix his problem.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 7:13 AM
I just want to say in response to this article:
Amy, I AM a man, and I'm sending you an angry letter right now.
Blaming the woman for her boyfriend's inability to show affection is utter bullshit.
Refusing to even kiss one's own girlfriend for a whole year is not normal.
Having your article focus on the woman's weight problem is completely the wrong approach. The complete lack of affection described in the letter is a vastly bigger issue than somebody gaining 40 pounds. If somehow the weight IS the cause of the boyfriend's coldness, it's a sign that the boyfriend is too shallow for a successful relationship to be possible.
LW, you wrote: "Is this all my fault for not being more beautiful?"
Hell no, it's not. Don't think that way.
You BOTH are probably at fault in various ways for failing to communicate, but you definitely are NOT at fault for "not being more beautiful". You should both approach communication with each other with the attitude "I'm OK, you're OK." It sounds like you're often feeling like you're not-OK when dealing with your boyfriend, which probably makes him either feel exasperated, or feel like he can walk all over you. (Undoubtedly, there's a lot more to your relationship problems than that.)
Losing weight IS good advice, for the health benefits alone. I also disagree strenuously with Amy's weight-loss advice. I consume a heck of a lot of carbohydrates, but I weigh 165 pounds. I used to weigh 220. Carbohydrates in the form of wheat bread, fruit, and raisin bran (all of which I eat often) are not "bad."
This article, which appeared in Scientific American in 2007, is a good guide to healthy eating:
http://whattoeatbook.com/2007/09/06/scientific-american-special-issue-on-feast-or-famine/
I'd also recommend Michael Pollan's book In Defense Of Food.
Lastly: I second lovelysoul's post above at 7:13 AM and MonicaP's at 6:54.
Jake at March 26, 2010 8:21 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704602">comment from JakeBoyfriend didn't write to me, Jake.
Whatever's going on with him, if you want to be attractive to men, you can't let yourself go. That's the point. It's not about "blaming" her -- it's about saying, "look, you hold some myths about male sexuality and you're hurting yourself in the love/dating sphere by being fat."
And Jake, don't give dietary advice, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Gary Taubes did seven years of exhaustive research. Dr. Michael Eades has helped about 10,000 patients lose weight, and posts extensively about the topic on his blog -- based on serious reading of studies. What did you do, go to the bookstore and Google an article?
Agriculture started about 10,000 years ago, and per ev. psych Donald Symons, adaptations take hundreds or thousands of generations (not just years) to take hold. Some people can eat almost no carbs without getting fat. Cutting carbs is a great way to lost weight fast, sans suffering, since it's carbs that cause the insulin secretion that puts on fat. Friend of mine did it. See above. Lost 17 lbs in a month and continues to lose.
Amy Alkon at March 26, 2010 8:26 AM
Heres a question. As Amy put these things up 3 weeks to a month after they appear in papers(and who knows how long after giving her advice to the LW)
Add to that we have been discussing it for three days.
Any one else find it odd that while the orgiginal LW came to the boards the only thing she's done is repost one of her emails to Amy?
No update on whether or not shes trying to lose weight. Nothing on whether she took anyones advice about talking to the boyfriend.
Anyone find that odd?
lujlp at March 26, 2010 8:50 AM
I really don't understand how this was framed as a "misunderstanding of male sexuality". She realized she was less physically attractive than she could be, but she was asking whether it was normal for him not to even kiss or hug her for a whole year.
It does seem like the blame for this was entirely laid upon her, and nothing at all was said about the boyfriend's behavior being cruel or abnormal. The impression left is that if only she was thinner, and therefore "more beautiful," he would be more affectionate.
Plus, you left out almost all the lines she wrote about knowing she needs to lose weight, so you could paint her as a purely slothful pig with a "trough of Haagen-Daz". That doesn't seem fair at all now, after reading the entirety of her comments.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 9:06 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704616">comment from lovelysoulPlacing blame on others is what children do. Adults take responsibility for what they've done. The problem SHE can correct, and very much needs to correct, is the fact that she packed on 40 pounds and thought a male partner "should" want her anyway, and not be repelled and angry. There's no such thing as "should," only what is and what isn't.
Furthermore, you don't have the entirety of her exchange here - only her first e-mail. Moreover (didn't I say this before), there's no "normal" or not normal, only what you have and what does and doesn't work for you.
As for the boyfriend, apparently you didn't read this, in the very column published above:
That's my answer to her question. Again, there's no normal or not normal only what does and doesn't work for you, what you will and won't put up with, and trying to eliminate the irrationalities in your thinking that cause you to not be able to have the life you want.
Amy Alkon at March 26, 2010 9:22 AM
> she was asking whether it was normal
> for him not to even kiss or hug her
> for a whole year.
She's a grown woman: The question is a transparent dodge, and was Amy responded accordingly.
> all the lines she wrote about knowing
> she needs to lose weight
If she knows how to proceed, why does she need advice?
Crid [cridcomment at gmail] at March 26, 2010 9:24 AM
"Normal" is a sketchy word. I'm guessing her question had more to do with, "Will the average guy not kiss or hug me for a year because I'm fat?" And the response is, yes, if he doesn't love you (or has some other issue). Withholding all affection for an entire year is not something people do when they love each other.
Her question had very little to do with the weight loss. She didn't ask, "Do I need to lose weight?" She knows the answer to that.
The question "Can I ever forgive him for what he's put me through?" is a little emo and not a question anyone but the LW can answer.
MonicaP at March 26, 2010 9:37 AM
This matters because we often talk about "choosing well" on this blog, and indict those who fail to recognize patterns of behavior which are unhealthy in a relationship. So, it seems like this would've been a good opportunity to point out that, regardless of her needing to lose some weight, his behavior is unloving and selfish.
A kind, loving man - which is the type of man women should be encouraged to look for - would not act this way. If you don't like the word "normal" than at least acknowledge that his being so cold and unloving towards her makes him a very poor candidate as a partner. I think that's what she was really asking, so you missed an opportunity to show women what NOT to look for in a partner.
Instead, the advice seemed to encourage her to lose weight to make this jerk happy enough to warm up to her again, which sends the wrong message. Losing weight is helpful advice, but even more helpful would've been to reinforce her impulse that she doesn't deserve to be treated so badly.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 9:59 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704623">comment from MonicaP"Normal" is a sketchy word. I'm guessing her question had more to do with, "Will the average guy not kiss or hug me for a year because I'm fat?" And the response is, yes, if he doesn't love you (or has some other issue). Withholding all affection for an entire year is not something people do when they love each other.
It's something they do if they're physically repelled and angry.
Again, the question isn't what's "normal," but what works for you, and I answered it here:
Amy Alkon at March 26, 2010 10:02 AM
> Boyfriend didn't write to me, Jake.
I love that.
I was discussing this with a friend on the phone the other day. Moving through life correctly is often about knowing which parts you're supposed to respond to.....
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 26, 2010 10:14 AM
...And which parts you aren't .
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 26, 2010 10:16 AM
> A kind, loving man - which is the type of man
> women should be encouraged to look for -
> would not act this way.
Not to a woman who won't work, bulks up, "gets lazy", and "blah blah bah"?
I beg to differ.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 26, 2010 10:20 AM
Wait, she never said she wouldn't work. She said she was unemployed. In a tough economy, that has has happened to a lot of people. There's plenty to pick on here. Let's not make stuff up.
MonicaP at March 26, 2010 10:24 AM
Monica, she said she had been unemployed for as long as they have been together. The implication is that she either lost or quit her job right after they got together. That is one of the stunts my ex pulled on me.
She has made it absolutely clear to him that she doesn't give a great goddam about the relationship. How is he supposed to react to that? The only thing I can criticize him for is that he should have left already.
Cousin Dave at March 26, 2010 11:01 AM
She said she had been unemployed for as long as they have been together.
She didn't even say that.
Okay, I get it. I have a boyfriend, and over the time I've known him (which is around two years), I've gained about 40 pounds. I was unemployed, I got a little lazy, blah blah blah
All we really know is that, over the last two years, she gained a lot of weight and lost (or quit) her job. Is she still unemployed? Did she lose or quit her job when they first got together? When did the weight gain start? Since the LW is here, maybe she can clarify. Not that this makes a whole lot of difference to the answer, and maybe she really is a mooch, but it's not fair to accuse her of sitting on her ass and pounding bon bons when we don't know some important details.
I find the boyfriend's response to the weight gain interesting, and I wish he HAD been the one to write in. Why stay with someone for an entire year if she physically and emotionally repulses you, especially if there are no kids and you're not married?
MonicaP at March 26, 2010 11:15 AM
Fine, I hope she's making all kinds of money today. I'm still pissed off about the "probably because I feel so bad about myself" thing. The "probably" is an invitation to chat about her feelings even more thoroughly (Probably, but maybe not! Let's discuss the matter!) even though the introspection hasn't done much for her yet.
> All we really know is that, over
> the last two years, she gained
> a lot of weight and lost (or
> quit) her job
You forgot "got lazy" and "blah blah blah". If you've ever known a guy whose girlfriend got all "blah blah blah", you know how tragic it can be.
Crid at March 26, 2010 11:26 AM
Well, I'll say what needs to be said: LW, kick him to the curb. If he's such a pussy he can't leave on his own - just wants to hang around and punish you for not being what he wants - then you make the call. Mature men don't withdraw ALL affection if they're upset over something - anything - doesn't matter what it is. Ask yourself why you would settle for someone like this for two years.
Losing weight is hard enough without having someone around who treats you like you're too grotesque to hug. Surround yourself with friends and family who not only support your weight loss efforts, but reinforce the positive qualities you possess.
Then, after you get yourself healthy, emotionally and physically, find a partner who has a lot more maturity than a sulky 3 yr old. They do exist. You should never settle for someone who tears down your self-esteem. No matter what you weigh, you deserve a partner who offers you emotional support.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 11:28 AM
Okay, LW. Since you're here and reading, I'll offer my perspective.
Obviously, the figure you had forty pounds ago was important to him. You maintained that figure just long enough to trap him into moving in. I'm not saying you did this on purpose, but that's how it looks. Let's just keep the svelte appearance up long enough to wrangle a committment out of him. Once you did, you figured it was okay to just let go, so you did.
It isn't just that you gained forty pounds. it's the fact that you obviously care so little about what was important to him.
Patrick at March 26, 2010 11:48 AM
It isn't just that you gained forty pounds. it's the fact that you obviously care so little about what was important to him.
Exactly, Patrick. Neither partner sounds terribly excited to be in this relationship. I wonder if it's really that both of them have huge self-esteem issues and either think they can't do better for themselves or don't want to have supposedly wasted the time already put into the relationship. And to those telling LW to just kick boyfriend to the curb: how will that help her? Personally, I think a first step needs to be a frank conversation about where and why things went wrong, and if they even want to fix them. I think Amy's advice about getting healthier and slimmer and then seeing how boyfriend responds was good. Then she can have a barometer of his interest and see if she still wants to be with him even if she loses the weight.
NumberSix at March 26, 2010 12:24 PM
"And to those telling LW to just kick boyfriend to the curb: how will that help her?"
How is he helping her now? What can she possibly be getting from a relationship with a man who refuses to touch her, kiss her, or hug her? That's not emotionally supportive.
You can't sit down and reason with someone who is that immature and emotionally detached. Sure, maybe he'll say that he'll start being affectionate again if she'll drop the weight. Should she really have to bargain like that for his love? Is that a love worth having?
This is why people end up staying for years in bad relationships because others make excuses for the mistreatment. Yet, there is NO legitimate excuse for being this passive-aggressive and witholding all affection. If this was only in the bedroom - if he was merely having trouble getting aroused - that would be one thing. He can't help that. But not offering any sort of affection and support for a whole year is the sign of guy who will make a terrible long-term partner. Even if she loses the weight, there'll be other things for him to sulk about and pull away over. Mature people don't behave this way in relationships.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 12:44 PM
"Well, I'll say what needs to be said: LW, kick him to the curb."
Um, I suspect he is the one paying the rent. Who, exactly, goes bouncing to the curb in that situation? /arched eyebrow
"If he's such a pussy he can't leave on his own - just wants to hang around and punish you for not being what he wants - then you make the call."
Again, who is hanging around whom here? Maybe he just doesn't want to kick her out, even though he no longer wants to bed her due to the fatness. That would indicate a decent-hearted fellow...who find fat women sexually unappealling. That does not make him bad, only uninterested. In fact, that sounds downright charitable.
"Mature men don't withdraw ALL affection if they're upset over something - anything - doesn't matter what it is."
"Pussy?" "Mature men?" Note, all, the shaming tactics, attempting to impose social control by belittling them. The writer here is belittling a man's "maturity" and masculinity because he does not conform to her desires in this instance. Remember, though, that the writer has no real authority to speak to what a "mature man" does or is. And naming him as a female sex organ, well, draw from that what you will.
(Also, "No true scotsman" fallacy. Look it up.)
"Then, after you get yourself healthy, emotionally and physically, find a partner who has a lot more maturity than a sulky 3 yr old."
Ibid.
"You should never settle for someone who tears down your self-esteem. No matter what you weigh, you deserve a partner who offers you emotional support."
Frankly, we have no idea what the LW deserves. The boyfriend may have an interesting tale of what is going on here than we know of at this point. I doubt, though, that the LW will do what she should have done 10 months ago: talk to him about her increasing weight and his decreasing interest.
Her weight. Her responsibility.
Spartee at March 26, 2010 12:51 PM
"What can she possibly be getting from a relationship with a man who refuses to touch her, kiss her, or hug her?"
Groceries. Heat. A roof. Light after dark.
"You can't sit down and reason with someone who is that immature and emotionally detached."
Wow. Just wow.
Spartee at March 26, 2010 12:54 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704698">comment from lovelysoulWhat can she possibly be getting from a relationship with a man who refuses to touch her, kiss her, or hug her? That's not emotionally supportive. You can't sit down and reason with someone who is that immature and emotionally detached. Sure, maybe he'll say that he'll start being affectionate again if she'll drop the weight. Should she really have to bargain like that for his love? Is that a love worth having?
Not questions for me to answer.
Which is why...I wrote...shall I repaste it in yet again?! I guess I must, since the text is apparently invisible to many of your posting here:
Amy Alkon at March 26, 2010 12:54 PM
Well, since you asked, I'll add a few more details.
Before I met my boyfriend, I was in a job that I HATED with the fury of a thousand suns. I saved up a ton of money and then quit the job. I met him (literally) the same week. He has never, nor would I ask him to, pay my way for me. I have always contributed my half of the bills. That is not in question.
The reason I wrote "blah blah blah" was because I didn't want my letter to become some sort of sob story about how I gained weight for all of these different factors...I was trying to say that there were reasons why it happened at the time, but I wasn't trying to excuse any of it by going into a lengthy explanation. The point wasn't how I got there, but the fact that I was there.
I am still fighting to lose all of the weight, but I have since learned that there were some medical factors at play that I had not been aware of at the time. I have been gainfully employed for over a year now (which I was at the time of the letter, actually).
My boyfriend and I are still together. We have had many MANY conversations about my weight and his lack of affection, and we've never struggled to talk to one another. It's a very strange situation, because we both seem to care about each other too much to pull the plug, but not enough to commit 100% to fixing things. Well, I shouldn't say that: I would definitely throw myself into making this work if he would get off the fence and decide what he wants, which he has not.
He still hates my weight, but he doesn't want to do anything physical with me (i.e. go rock climbing, go bike riding, etc) because it won't be any fun for him because I can't keep up. He also insists on buying rich fatty foods that I cannot metabolize as quickly as he does, and gets fussed when I try to cut back, and we share the grocery shopping. Sometimes I think that he wants to keep me fat for some reason, but that doesn't make any sense so it's probably just me.
The part that confuses me the most is that he really doesn't want to see me leave him, even though he is still unaffectionate and kisses me like I'm his Aunt Gertrude. I don't understand it, but I feel like it's all a moot point until I lose the weight because I'll never know how he would have treated me if this hadn't happened.
LW at March 26, 2010 1:06 PM
Please people - it's obvious that this is not the finest communication hour for both of them. Amy has pointed this out.
We don't know how much each is to blame for this situation - we really don't have enough details. There could be good reasons he's totally withdrawn affection yet as far as we know he could also be a total tool. Or she could be exaggerating - who can say. We cannot know how to apportion blame for his withdrawal. Can we stop please stop extrapolating up the wazoo.
Amy's advice that she need to think about how her boyfriend reacted to the situation and figure out how to address that is on target.
AntoniaB at March 26, 2010 1:06 PM
Lovelysoul said: "The impression left is that if only she was thinner, and therefore "more beautiful," he would be more affectionate."
duh.
mike at March 26, 2010 1:09 PM
The more I learn the more aghast I am.
Please, LW, do not reproduce in this union. I beg you.
Spartee at March 26, 2010 1:12 PM
> Can we stop please stop extrapolating
> up the wazoo.
Takes the fun out of visiting the "advice" part of an advice columnist's blog
Crid at March 26, 2010 1:17 PM
So, Spartee, she should stay with him purely for financial reasons? Isn't that what you guys complain so bitterly over - women using men as mealtickets - yet, now you're advocating that as a legitimate reason for her to stay?
If he doesn't really love her, which it seems he doesn't, as evidenced by the fact he can't even offer a hug without being begged, and maybe she doesn't love him much either - at least enough to keep her appearance up - then what are these two people doing together?
If she needs to get a job and support herself, then get one. It's much better to stand on your own two feet than be miserable in a loveless relationship.
He's not just going "come around". Is he comatose? Does he need smelling salts? Is he just going to wake up one day and tune into her emotionally. Not likely after a year.
I don't think this has anything to do with her weight. She can lose the weight, but my guess is that it won't matter. There's some reason he's shut down emotionally, but that's not it.
Why would a guy without kids or a marriage license stay with someone who clearly doesn't do it for him, either emotionally or physically. If they had affection and an emotional connection, there'd be something to build on, but there's...just nothing.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 1:24 PM
Sorry, I didn't see your answer, LW. I'm glad you don't need to stay with him for financial reasons. I don't know why he won't pull the plug, but clearly, something is wrong if he's not even willing to do things with you to support your weight loss and can only kiss you like an aunt, not like a woman he loves. This is just wrong on so many levels. You'd be better off alone than like this.
As I said, I don't think it's the weight, and if it is - if that's all that matters to him - then you don't have much. There's not a solid foundation to build on here.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 1:32 PM
I just want to say, LW, you're really brave to come on here. I love reading this site because the comments often give the LWs a chance to clarify what Amy doesn't have room for.
I was in a looonnnggg relationship that seems rather similar. Weight was not an issue, but diminishing affection and desire were. We both loved each other but were no longer attracted to each other. I tried to break up several times, and, each time, he looked at me like I'd just clubbed a baby seal. Anyway, eventually we ended things for good and are both much much happier (still friends, in fact).
My advice? What lovelysoul has said several times already. :)
sofar at March 26, 2010 1:50 PM
I, too think Amy is correct on the carb issue.
I have always gone up and down and always go back to Weight Watchers and it just stopped working.
The women in my family tend to be heavy. I eat a very healthy balanced diet, but I am lazy about exercise.
I stared the Ideal Protein Diet about 4 weeks ago and have lost 14 lbs. already which is way better than I was doing on WW. I am getting married in May and needed to do something serious about my ever blossoming body.
My fiance is fit and plays sports and I was voluptuous when we met and then the weight started creeping back up when we moved in together b/c I have no willpower and he brings bad foods in the house all the time. he didn't really sign on to marry the fat chick and our sex life has suffered as well. I am hoping as I get smaller he finds me more attractive.
I used to date a guy who liked me chunkier so this is new to me to have the man I love be less attracted to me. I had the pity party and kept gaining b/c food was comforting me for how bad I was feeling about being overweight! ack-viscious cycle!
if anyone is interested, I am writing ablog about the journey to health on this diet plan-I thought it would help me stay on track if I write about it.Linny Getting Skinny blogspot
linny at March 26, 2010 1:53 PM
This is why people end up staying for years in bad relationships because others make excuses for the mistreatment.
Telling LW she has a hand in her own problems is not making excuses for the boyfriend's "mistreatment." She's as much to blame as he is, especially since she has told us that they have had so many conversations about the weight and affection and still are stagnating. And it's not making excuses to tell LW to do something about the things she can control. She can't force her boyfriend to give her affection, she can't force him to go with her bike riding (though I don't know why that means she can't go on her own), and she can't force him to decide one way or the other about their relationship. What she can do is build up some self-esteem, and that can start quite easily with making herself feel better about her appearance, i.e. losing weight and fixing herself up a bit. Then she can see what boyfriend thinks and if she even still wants him around. But she can only control what she does.
NumberSix at March 26, 2010 2:14 PM
There's not a solid foundation to build on here.
I do think you're almost definitely right about that, in light of what she has posted in response. But taking control of herself will help her figure that out for herself and will hopefully leave her in a better place if they do break up.
NumberSix at March 26, 2010 2:17 PM
I suppose waiting until you had another job lined up before you walked out the door was out of the question? Sorry, I do not condone this course of action. By walking out of a job, you just made yourself a lot less desirable of an employee. The prospective employer is going to think, "So, she just up and quits when she's not happy."
And even if he doesn't know the circumstances, the fact that you're unemployed just made it a lot worse. It's easier to find a job as an employed person than an unemployed person.
I understand that you hated the job, but I don't think quitting without another job lined up is the right thing to do, unless your job has you doing something that will result in prison time for you.
LW, take lovelysoul's advice with a grain of salt. She's normally a very nice person, but when it comes to dysfunctional relationships, an anti-male streak rears its ugly head. As Spartee points out, you can see it in her choice of words.
I urge you to take a good long look at yourself and ask yourself just how desirable you are right now.
What are you doing with your time? By now, if you're really conscientiously looking for work, you should have an application with every employer in the country? Are you making the calls, doing the follow-ups, etc.?
If you've done all that...and to be blunt, I suspect you haven't, what are you doing now? Sitting around the couch all day, moping, feeling sorry for yourself? When the boyfriend comes home from work, where are you? On the couch with a pint of Ben & Jerry's watching the soaps? If that's the case, I wouldn't touch you either. Not out of spite, but simply because I would feel no affection for you. In fact, I would probably regard you as a girl who used to be so nice and special, but now for whom I feel mild distaste. What's your boyfriend doing, by the way? Is he hoping and praying you'll come out of this rut you're in?
How about training for a new career? At this time, due to the lax economy, there's tons of financial aid available, especially if you don't already have a degree.
Simply put, there is no reason to be inactive.
I think you need to take a long, brutally honest look at just how desirable you are right now?
Patrick at March 26, 2010 2:26 PM
Regarding the exercise issue, so what if he doesn't want to go with you? Go alone, when he's at work.
Patrick at March 26, 2010 2:32 PM
LW, I've said a lot about this already, but just one more thought. Sometimes, when things aren't working, we construct "reasons" for them not to work and avoid the hard truth of why.
My take is that this guy is just not that into you, and maybe vice-versa. Yet your weight provides a very convenient excuse for both of you to temporarily avoid confronting that truth.
The tell-tale sign to me is that he is not being helpful, and may, in fact, be sabotaging your weight loss. If it was really about the weight, he'd be encouraging you like mad and helping any way he could. But I think he relies on your weight as the excuse for not being more affectionate and loving. If your weight disappears, he'll be out of an excuse.
Likewise, if you've never struggled with weight before this relationship, you may have subconciously gained for the same reason.
You can wait until after you lose the weight to determine the answer is you'd like, although it's going to be even harder without his support, but I suspect, ultimately, you will find this relationship just isn't workable whether you're fat or thin.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 2:41 PM
I suppose waiting until you had another job lined up before you walked out the door was out of the question? Sorry, I do not condone this course of action. By walking out of a job, you just made yourself a lot less desirable of an employee.
This would NOT appear to be the case. I believe she said that she IS gainfully employed now.
But Patrick, I do agree that there is "no reason to be inactive." But that applies to both of them. If he's done (which it seems he is, judging from his actions), he needs to grow up, overcome the inertia and end things.
sofar at March 26, 2010 2:55 PM
I don't see why my take is "anti-male", Patrick. He may be a great guy, but she just isn't "the one" for him. Or he may not be an affectionate person in general (how was he in other relationships, LW? Do you know?)
I mean, physically affectionate people are usually affectionate regardless. I'm affectionate, and even if there were problems in my relationship, it would be very hard for me to go a whole year without hugging or kissing my boyfriend. I just couldn't do that. It would be like not breathing. The hugging, kissing, and cuddling is just as much for the giver as the receiver. The contact doesn't have to be sexual, but it's odd that he can go a year without any physical affection himself. That says to me that he probably doesn't like physical expressions of affection, and her weight provides the perfect excuse.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 3:02 PM
sofar: But Patrick, I do agree that there is "no reason to be inactive." But that applies to both of them. If he's done (which it seems he is, judging from his actions), he needs to grow up, overcome the inertia and end things.
I can't fathom his reasons for sticking around either. Quite possibly, he still cares for her and maybe he's waiting for her to come out of her malaise.
That's why I'm telling her to ask herself, honestly, how desirable does she feel she is right now?
If her job market is really, really that bad right now and she really, really has tried everything, then I would advise her that the next step is a new career path.
The problem I have is with her decision to quit the job before she had a new one. That's a red flag right there.
It suggests a certain lack of responsibility and really bad decision making skills.
Now, I'm finding that she's created a false dilemma. She can't work out because her boyfriend won't go with her, because it's no fun for him because he can't keep up.
To me, that's no dilemma at all. Start going on bikerides without him while he's at work, then maybe she'll be able to keep up, eventually.
The whole thing, to me, suggests that she's in a rut. And I'm not saying she's a bad person for this.
The job market isn't hiring. To me, that's also an weak excuse for not doing anything. So, start training on a new career path. And maybe get a job on campus, through work study.
You see, I'm seeing this woman with an awful lot of excuses for not doing anything.
While I applaud her for coming on the board, she's leaving me with the distinct impression that she's playing the self-pitying loafer right now.
Lovelysoul, I will say that most of the time, you live up to your name. However, when bad relationships come up, I almost see a Jeckyll-Hyde transformation in your online persona.
You've vilified her boyfriend with some pretty ugly terms. And it's not the first time a fusillade of really mean-spirited epithets has come from your fingers from men who don't live up to your preconceived ideas, or don't share your opinions.
Patrick at March 26, 2010 4:00 PM
But...she DOES have a job. She's had her new job for more than a year, she says.
This contradicts the idea that her unemployment is part of her "rut." She has a job, she's working out, she's trying to engage this guy in the relationship, and he's checked out completely. Of course he has the right to do that. Everyone does. But only if it coincides with being an adult and breaking up--not stringing her along in a really cruel way.
I'm guessing the LW will have to be the one to end this thing--clearly this guy is fine with being miserable.
sofar at March 26, 2010 4:44 PM
Patrick, you said it best once that I don't like extremes. The thing about this blog is that there is always a lot of support for the male side of things. If you'll notice in this thread, for instance, there was an immediate rush to judgment about the LW. Not only was she fat, lazy, uncaring, but she even became greasy and smelly too.
I'll rush to the underdog's defense when it seems the attacks and assumptions are way off base and unwarranted.
Actually, the first time this ran, I was critical of LW too, but this time, it was MonicaP that first noticed there was something off about the guy being so unaffectionate, and maybe it wasn't all about her weight. That made me rethink my opinion. To me, it's not about gender but what makes the most sense regarding what's going on.
And, sometimes, it takes harsh language to wake someone up if they're deluding themselves...especially women, for some reason. We'll stick with a sinking relationship far too long unless somebody shakes us and says, "Hey, look, he's mistreating you!" I think, in this case, LW is trying to avoid coming to grips with that truth.
Maybe I was too harsh towards him, as of course I don't know him, but she needs to see that he's not being loving or supportive. She can wait and see if this improves as her waistline slims down, but meanwhile, her self-esteem is taking a beating from his lack of affection, which is going to make it pretty hard to get out of this rut. It's hard enough to climb out of a rut when you have support.
lovelysoul at March 26, 2010 4:49 PM
Interesting that it's okay for her to secretly hate herself for getting/staying fat, but not okay for her boyfriend to openly agree.
Ruth666 at March 26, 2010 5:05 PM
LS, you could be right that this is a doomed relationship... however, my response to this is that all this speculating on why the BF does or doesn't do things is, from the LW's perspective, a red herring. As long as she's speculating about why the BF isn't more affectionate, she's diverting attention away from where it needs to be, which is on her own issues. Clearly, deep down she is unhappy with herself and the state that she's in now. The BF cannot fix it for her. Even if he was fully supportive, she still has to dedicate herself to making a change. Until she does, the BF's actions won't make a bit of difference.
Now, it's also true that once she does make a change and start getting herself into shape (both body-wise and mentally), then it will be time for her to re-evaluate the relationship. At that point she may find that yes, it's time to break it off. But until then, anything she does in regard to the BF will only be yet another mechanism for blame transference and avoiding the real problem.
Cousin Dave at March 26, 2010 5:29 PM
Your answer to this person was brutality honest and right on. At first it stuck me as so honest i couldn't believe it came from a women to another woman. All people, both men and women know this knife or should I say fat cuts both ways. When are women pining for for a John Candy look alike? Get real. They are looking for a Brad Pitt to fill their life. Dieting is hard work. Pushing away that cup cake is tough but people who see the value in it do it!
jack zielinski at March 26, 2010 5:46 PM
But until then, anything she does in regard to the BF will only be yet another mechanism for blame transference and avoiding the real problem.
Exactly, Dave (or do you prefer I call you Cousin?). I think you are spot-on about the red herring (totally off-topic, but I loved the Red Herring character on "A Pup Named Scooby Doo"- poor guy got blamed for everything.). Maybe with another addition to our numbers we can convince some people here that LW CANNOT CONTROL HER BOYFRIEND'S ACTIONS, so they are nearly irrelevant to Amy's advice. Amy addressed him a bit, but his lack of affection is not the core problem because she can't do anything about it. She can only do whatever she can with whatever she has. For the life of me, I can't figure out why these two people are still together, but that's not really the issue here. She has to take responsibility for herself. Trying to assume responsibility for someone else's actions and internalizing in that way often has the opposite effect: you realize there is no chance in hell that you can do anything about it, so you just give up altogether and start shifting blame to external factors. You'll end up in LW's rut: feeling so down on yourself for gaining weight, but you won't take steps to do anything about it on your own because BF won't exercise with you, so you just give up on it and wallow. Hard to dig yourself out of that one.
NumberSix at March 26, 2010 8:57 PM
"And Jake, don't give dietary advice, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about. ...What did you do, go to the bookstore and Google an article? "
Yeah, sure. I clearly don't know what I'm talking about.
What did I do? As I mentioned, I found a way to lose more than fifty pounds and keep it off.
Your response is unnecessarily rude.
Jake at March 27, 2010 12:16 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704792">comment from Jake"And Jake, don't give dietary advice, since you clearly don't know what you're talking about. ...What did you do, go to the bookstore and Google an article? " Yeah, sure. I clearly don't know what I'm talking about. What did I do? As I mentioned, I found a way to lose more than fifty pounds and keep it off. Your response is unnecessarily rude.
Actually, it's necessarily truthful.
As for your personal experience, as they say in science: "The plural of anecdote is not data."
Gary Taubes did seven years exhaustive research of the body of data on what to eat, and what of that is and isn't evidence-based. The evidence-based stuff is what I put in my column. Your advice is based in what I call hearsay-based medicine as opposed to evidence-based. Sadly, it is what much of the medical establishment practices, based on the work of Ancel ("Selection Bias") Keys.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 12:21 AM
Look at that. I read her next post and you're right. She does say that she's working, which is not implied by the letter that headed her column.
That would be the same Gary Taubes who told you, concerning me, and I quote, "You know
he's right that he doesn't need any diet studies to tell him what works for him. That is the beauty of dieting for weight loss. One thing I agree with him on 100 percent."
Please note his words carefully.
To say that Jake doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to dieting, when he found a way to lose fifty pounds and keep it off is arrogant and just plain asinine.
How can you, seriously, tell anyone that he doesn't know how to lose weight when he lost fifty pounds and kept it off?
And anyway, Amy, I'll remind you of something else: You have also been guilty of giving out misinformation on dieting. Remember when I described the symptoms of Atkins flu and you maintained that I wasn't eating enough fat? I was pan frying bacon and cooking eggs in the grease, and lunch was bacon wrapped sirloin and I wasn't eating enough fat. Yeah, right.
Taubes was the one who nailed the problem and pointed out it was sodium depletion.
Jake has as much right to give dietary advice (especially over something that he's found successful) as anyone else on this blog does. I don't the licensed dietician alphabet soup after anyone's name on this blog.
It just bugs the hell out of me that someone read Taubes' book and is all of sudden is the expert and has the right to look down their nose at someone else's experience.
Obviously, he does know what works. He found a diet that he can stick with, which is the important element in any diet. Atkins might be wonderful, but if the thought of eating that much fat is an exercise in suppressing the gag reflex, Atkins isn't going to do you much good.
Patrick at March 27, 2010 7:11 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704850">comment from PatrickTo say that Jake doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to dieting, when he found a way to lose fifty pounds and keep it off is arrogant and just plain asinine. How can you, seriously, tell anyone that he doesn't know how to lose weight when he lost fifty pounds and kept it off?
Jake doesn't know what causes people to put on fat. He may have worked off the weight but the evidence shows carbs put on fat. And it's possible when people are tired that they aren't eating enough fat, but Taubes and Eades intervened because I told them about the blog post so they could bring in the science I perhaps could not.
Taubes has done a vast amount of research on what the actual evidence says, and I can see that it's solid so I refer to him, and I have an epidemiologist (a mutual friend of mine and Taubes) who coaches me in how to read studies. One thing I know is that you don't go by just one study, but a body of research. So somebody quoting one study and anecdotal evidence is not somebody I'm going to take seriously.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 7:21 AM
Jake, welcome to the funny farm.
Most people, when they lose fifty pounds and keep it off, they're congratulated. But not here. Here you're smugged to death by self-righteous self-appointed who vilify and condemn you for not doing it "right" way.
Patrick at March 27, 2010 10:08 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704881">comment from PatrickWhat's being vilified is Jake, on the basis of a Googled article, and his personal experience (probably spending many hours a day working out - when you can cut carbs and drop pounds while reading a book), recommending that people eat carbs. This is not supported by Dr. Eades, who is versed in evidence-based dietary medicine, having helped over 10,000 people lose weight, or by Gary Taubes, who spent seven years researching the body of dietary studies.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 10:24 AM
I propose we all meet at the LA '84 olympic stadium on new years eve and spend an hour just bitch slapping each other in person
Whaddya Say?
lujlp at March 27, 2010 10:50 AM
C'mon, Amy, it can't possibly be that these guys have books to sell and money to be made from devoted followers like yourself. There's a lot of disagreement with their findings. For one thing, they gloss over any study linking high meat consumption to cancer, but most experts don't view it that way. What's the point of being thin if you're going to get cancer?
You're a low-carb convert and we get that, but I agree with Patrick that you come off rather smug on this topic when there's still a lot of unknowns. Jake has the right to share his diet tips with the LW. 50 pds is an impressive weight loss. Good for him.
lovelysoul at March 27, 2010 10:51 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704890">comment from lovelysoulGary Taubes is an incredibly generous human being, as is Eades. I have seen both of them volunteer huge swaths of their time to personally answer people's questions about diet, gratis.
They don't "gloss over" aspects of eating meat -- you just say they do. I've read quite a bit on the meat-cancer stuff - and I can't post on it (on deadline), nor do I have the time to do it comprehensively. Read Eades and Taubes on it.
To say there's "a lot of disagreement" is meaningless. What Taubes and Eades both do is lay out the evidence.
I know somebody who lost lots of weight by exercising four hours a day -- the friend I put on the no-carb diet for a month who took off 17 lbs sans exercise. You have four hours a day to go to the gym? He doesn't either.
Also, eating this way means you aren't hungry -- you eat satisfying food that fills you up. Bacon, yum!
Oh, and I'm busy, but I Googled quickly and here's one of Eades' posts on meat and cancer:
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/cancer/colon-cancer-and-red-meat/
Oh, and do you think all the people whose studies are based on flawed analysis and shit data are not making money for them?
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 10:59 AM
It's not the only way. Plenty of people have lost weight following Dr Fuhrman's diet also. They don't have to spend hours at the gym. Not everyone feels comfortable eating bacon, hot dogs and burgers, laden with chemicals, hormones, and saturated fats, all day. Some people do. It's a very personal choice, and whereas I agree that limiting carbs helps with weight loss, eliminating them entirely isn't good advice, and it's not a long-term sustainable diet for most people.
lovelysoul at March 27, 2010 11:06 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704896">comment from lovelysouleliminating them entirely isn't good advice,
Eliminating sugar, flour, apple juice, other juices, and starchy carbohydrates is fantastic advice. I eat green beans, salad, and other green vegetables in butter. Haven't had a piece of potato for a year. I weigh what I did in high school, have tons of energy, need much less sleep, and don't get moody eating this way (meat/low carb).
Need to go write now. Somebody else please pick up the slack in favor of the science over the hearsay. Thanks.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 11:24 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704898">comment from lovelysoulPlenty of people have lost weight following Dr Fuhrman's diet also.
One more thing: Wasn't Dr. Fuhrman that nitwit you referenced who says broccoli has more protein than meat?
Whoops, only you have to eat an entire field of the stuff (or at least maybe three cups) to equal the protein in a morsel of steak.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 11:28 AM
Per calorie gram, (I believe), broccoli actually has more protein than steak. You don't have to eat a "field of it." Besides, some people prefer eating broccoli to bacon, and many aren't aware that broccoli contains protein at all. See, this is what we mean. You don't have to be so derisive to people who make different dietary choices than you. There are different paths to weight loss and good health. It isn't all low-carb. I don't understand why you completely lose your normal objectivity when it comes to this.
Taubes is a "generous guy". How can you use anecdotal evidence like that as proof that someone isn't biased towards his own self-interest?
lovelysoul at March 27, 2010 11:42 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704902">comment from lovelysoulWe're all biased toward our own self-interest. Gary is tortured about making sure he digs up the truth. Just tortured. It's what drives him.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 12:16 PM
I'm afraid your statement about you asking them to comment - AHEM! - does not jibe with their accounts. Here's Dr. Eades own account: "My friend Amy Alkon, the Advice Goddess, whose blog I read religiously, wrote a funny post on bacon featuring the kind of ill-disciplined child who gives the South a bad name. Amy, who is an inveterate low-carber, wrote the post from the perspective of how much she likes bacon. Of course some commenter couldn’t resist slamming low-carb diets in general and Gary Taubes in particular, so I couldn’t resist resorting to form (the bad Mike sort of won out on this one). If you’re interested, you can read that exchange here (two comments)."
And as for Gary Taubes, according to his email to you, "I was reading Mike Eades's blog which got me to your blog and the interaction with this guy Patrick who thinks I'm a buffoon."
So, to hear them tell it, their intervention was not due to any action of yours, contrary to your statement above. They came on their own, for their own reasons. And they corrected your mistake for you.
Amy, I love you to death, but on this topic, you're rapidly becoming insufferable. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be happy with the knowledge you gained and be willing to share it, but your attitude is extremely self-righteous, smug and patronizing.
Considering your own beliefs weren't so different from Jake's once upon a time...remember the story about the counter idiot at the coffee shop who gave you a fat-free muffin instead of the regular?...you might be a little less smug. Jake isn't doing or recommending anything that people (including yourself) haven't subscribed to at some point in their lives. And obviously, it does work for some people, or else we'd have stopped doing it.
Patrick at March 27, 2010 12:43 PM
"Who do you like in Albert Park this weekend?"
Whether it's food, lust, racing or revenge, Italians rule. Twas ever thus.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 27, 2010 1:03 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704914">comment from PatrickPatrick, I e-mailed Taubes your comment and he responded. I believe I even forwarded it to y you - his response.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 1:55 PM
Yes, Amy, you did forward it to me. I quoted that email in my previous post. Where he says that he was reading Eades' blog, which mentioned his exchange with me, and that prompted him to see for himself. He did not mention being emailed by you. But that's more a "symptom" than the ailment.
I don't mean to sound overly harsh. I'm pointing out that the whole low-carb diet discussion brings out an aspect of you that I'm not enjoying. I like reading your stuff on other topics and you will always be head and shoulders above anyone else who calls themselves an advice columnist -- I don't even mind your attacks on religion, although I am a Christian myself -- but this topic brings out a side of you that I would just as soon never see.
While you're not at all shy about slapping someone around verbally as a necessary approach to waking them up when you write your column, the whole diet topic brings out another approach. A haughtiness, a contemptuousness, whatever it is, that ill becomes you.
That said, I will always be a devoted fan of your work. I will faithfully read your column as long as you're writing them. I just don't like what this particular topic appears to do to you. Just remember, your thinking on this topic was no different from anyone else's. You might want to cut the other mere mortals some slack.
Patrick at March 27, 2010 2:09 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704919">comment from PatrickConsidering your own beliefs weren't so different from Jake's once upon a time...remember the story about the counter idiot at the coffee shop who gave you a fat-free muffin instead of the regular?.
I didn't eat this on purpose -- I'd read Taubes' "Big Fat Lie" at that point, and understood how awful lowfat food is (they replace fat with sugar). The muffin was incorrectly marked.
I post about this now not because I personally figured something out -- but because I am driven to give evidence-based advice, and because people who have spent years of misery struggling to lose weight can do it with ease by cutting out carbs.
And I think it was maybe Eades I e-mailed, not Taubes - can't recall. But, I did e-mail them and later forwarded you Taubes' response.
People do vary. Some can eat more carbs, some can eat less. It seems pretty clear to me that sugar is a poison to the human body (per Lustig, USC, and others), and carbohydrates do cause the insulin reaction that puts on fat. Gary Taubes and I have a mutual friend who is built like a papercut. If he doesn't eat carbs, I think he'll disappear. Others, however, like those who are genetically prone to be fat and maybe even diabetic, find that for the first time in their lives, they can lose weight without deprivation and without exercising their lives away.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 2:36 PM
> Whether it's food, lust, racing
> or revenge, Italians rule.
> Twas ever thus.
Verily; and the pass that is to be made of a driver ought to be of such a kind that one does not drive in fear of re-pass.
Crid at March 27, 2010 7:07 PM
Per calorie gram, (I believe), broccoli actually has more protein than steak.
lovelysoul, I responded to that comment on the "Why She's No Longer a Vegan" thread. The pertinent part of my post over there:
"So I'm going to do the figuring: I find my nutrition info at this site, which says that cooked broccoli (boiled and drained, while I usually steam mine) has 4.5g protein per 180g, which is pretty good for a vegetable. The problem is that 73% of the calories (98) in broccoli are from carbohydrates. 180g of trimmed, braised cube steak has 63g of protein, and 72% of the calories (369) are from protein, and 0% from carbs. 180g of cooked broccoli is almost 100 calories, and 100 calories of this cube steak is 48.5g. This 48.5g of cube steak would therefore have 17.1g of protein, whereas the approximately 100 calories of broccoli has 4.5g of protein. So I don't know where you got your info, lovelysoul, but cite your source, please, as it differs greatly from the information I have found."
The moral of the story: 100 calories of cube steak (trimmed of all fat and braised) has 17.1 grams of protein. 98 calories of broccoli (boiled) has 4.5. Even though you may lose a bit of protein in the water (I only ever steam or stir-fry my broccoli to avoid losing nutrients), there is still more than three times the protein in this steak than in the broccoli. So, calorie for calorie, broccoli does not have more protein than steak.
NumberSix at March 27, 2010 8:19 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1704950">comment from NumberSixhttp://www.nourishdc.com/?p=612
Four-to-five cups of broccoli? Have fun.
Amy Alkon at March 27, 2010 8:53 PM
Four-to-five cups of broccoli? Have fun.
That four-to-five cups still won't get you as much protein as the same number of calories of steak. Give up the fight and eat a more protein-dense plant food instead. The Morningstar Farms "sausage" patties I like have 10 grams of protein in 1 patty, which is 80 calories, and only 3 grams of carbohydrates. I especially like the new Hot & Spicy ones. Gardein brand also has good stuff. Eat the broccoli as it was intended, as a side vegetable, not a main course.
NumberSix at March 27, 2010 9:42 PM
Patrick: "Since I'm accepting money from people to teach them to exercise, any dietary mention blurs the lines between personal training and casting myself in the role of dietician, and I'm in heap big trouble if the holders of my certification find out. Moreover, if anything goes wrong, I become liable and my insurance will not bail me out for dietary advice. ... You really don't need some stupid lawsuit for casting yourself in the role of dietician."
Wow, I guess that "advice" doesn't apply to yourself for the amount of (often false, e.g. lying that low-carb diet = all-meat diet) claims you've blatantly made on this forum. Or do you think it's "OK" to dispense your own unscientific dietary advice to the forum because you see yourself as anonymous? You realise that if anyone figured out your identity on this forum, that you've made *heaps* of claims about diet and nutrition here with your endless anti-low-carb whining? I find it hard to believe you'd be able to hold back in person if one of your customers started telling you how great they think low-carb is.
Amy: "To say there's "a lot of disagreement" is meaningless. What Taubes and Eades both do is lay out the evidence."
Actually one of the things I found *most* surprising when I started studying the actual science behind low-carb was just how little disagreement there is. I had been expecting to see lots of 'scientific debate', and/or lots of 'knowledge gaps' around how the body works etc. ... in stark contrast to my expectations, I actually found that not only was the science well-established, well-known and broadly confirmed, but they also have been for quite a long time ... the body works in such-and-such a way w.r.t. carbohydrates and insulin and fat storage etc., 'end of story' --- the actual scientists aren't really 'debating' this at all; the science basically supports the low-carb approach. It's not even new. The only place where the "debate" seems to start is completely outside of the scientific arena, from the various groups of people who aren't looking at the science very closely.
Lobster at March 28, 2010 5:04 AM
Grams of protein per 100 calories serving: broccoli 11.2 grams, kale 11 grams, romaine7.5 grams, and the sirloin steak only 5.4 grams:
http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/healthy-food-nutrient-density-of-green-vegetables.html
I don't know how true this is, and I don't want to become the brocolli crusader here, although I actually enjoy eating brocolli and other greens. In the course of a day, I'm sure I get enough protein from greens, as well as other sources. I personally believe a mostly plant-based diet is better, not just for weight loss, which is only one consideration, but for long-term health.
Dr. Fuhrman has also done exhaustive research and his book, "Eat to Live" is heavily indexed with studies. Taubes or Eades may have some issues with them though.
Yet, Dr. Fuhrman doesn't recommend eating lots of carbs either - some whole grains, but only side dish servings. The biggest difference between the diets would be fruit, which is recommended more for the antioxidents and disease-preventing properties than weight loss, and a limit on animal products, such as meat and dairy, which he believes are linked to a variety of health problems, like cancer.
I agree with Lobster that there is fairly broad acceptance by the "experts" now that it's good to cut down on carbs. The issue is more about what carbs and how much, which varies from person to person, and also whether your goal is just weight loss or, like Fuhrman's focus, avoiding disease.
lovelysoul at March 28, 2010 6:45 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1705003">comment from lovelysoulYou can personally believe whatever you want, but somebody who eats only vegetables is going to be really hungry and it's not a healthy diet. Meat, as Taubes once told me when I interviewed him, has every vitamin the human body needs but vitamin C, and there's some indication that if you don't eat carbs, you don't end up vitamin C-deficient. You need to eat vast quantities of vegetarian food to get the nutrients you need.
Dr. Furhrman used old government nutrition tables tables -- published in 1986, I believe, for a book that came out in the 90s. I'm sure Deepak Chopra also did a lot of research for his books, but it doesn't make them evidence-based. Gary Taubes is so good at what he does that he won the top science award so many times that he's ineligible to win it again (they wanted to give others a shot). Because a book is "heavily indexed with studies" is meaningless. When I'm out with Taubes and an epidemiologist friend of ours, I get a sense of how Taubes is able to see and cut through the crap research and crap analysis in a way few people are. Eades, if you read his blog, lays out all the time how he does, in simple-to-understand language.
Anybody who says what you say Fuhrman did about broccoli versus meat, I don't want to waste my time reading.
Fruit is hybridized to be filled with sugar, and not the fruit we would have eaten in Paleo times, which would have been far more bitter.
I don't care who's considered an "expert." In fact, a pretty famous one presented data not based in evidence at a conference I attended, and then refused to look again at Ancel Keys shoddy research (which he deemed "excellent" -- and it's far from it, selection bias, etc.)...and I e-mailed him for months every few weeks begging him to look at Keys' work so he wouldn't be telling people what to eat based on conclusions not supported by evidence.
Amy Alkon at March 28, 2010 6:59 AM
Well, I'm obviously no expert and cannot refute what you're saying, except I believe you have some outdated and incorrect views regarding vegetarianism. You seem to dislike eating most vegetables, so you're inclined to believe that vegetarians will be "hungry", and/or malnourished, which is completely false.
There are vegetarians who eat poorly, just as there are with any group, but vegetarians are generally healthier than meat-eaters, and they rarely have nutritional deficiencies unless they're following some highly-restrictive, quacky form of the diet.
In recent years, more has been understood about how the body stores nutrients, so although it was once believed that vegetarians couldn't get enough nutrients, we now know that they can and do (which was always obvious from the fact that vegetarians were not dropping dead everywhere).
Dr. Furhman has had a lot of success treating people with chronic diseases. His diet is not just about weight loss but disease prevention. He advocates a sensible approach of avoiding processed food and eating whole foods, mostly fruits and vegetables.
A lot of this is intuitive, and, to me, a diet based on consuming heavy amounts of hormone filled, processed meat products seems unhealthy for the long run. Sure, you lose weight, but are you really doing what's best for your body long-term?
Rejecting fruit, which is loaded with antioxidents and nutrients, just like vegetables, seems particularly absurd. You speak of fruits and vegetables like they're almost toxic, which I doubt many reputable nutritionists believe. Surely, Taubes doesn't believe that.
I think this is more a personal bias for you than really backed up by science. You embrace the science that lets you consume meat with abandon, because you prefer that diet yourself, which is fine, but don't be so critical of a more balanced approach, or of those who are vegetarian.
Your views on vegetarianism actually sound pretty much like those who first criticized low-carb as being unhealthy. It's an irrational fear of what you don't understand.
lovelysoul at March 28, 2010 8:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1705013">comment from lovelysoulyou seem to dislike eating most vegetables,
Um, thanks for telling me, but let me ask me: "Hey, self...how do you feel about vegetables."
"Well, that's a dumb question, self. You know you love vegetables...so why are you asking? Shouldn't you be writing?"
...As for vegetarians being healthier than meat eaters and "rarely" having nutritional deficiencies, read Lierre Keith's new book, or read about it. She's just one of many.
http://www.tomnaughton.com/?p=558
I don't prefer this diet because I don't like muffins or because I'm some dietary fundamentalist. The science says it's the healthiest way to eat.
Amy Alkon at March 28, 2010 8:21 AM
I can empathize with the LW as I too have gained 40 lbs since re-allowing the ex/love of my life back in my life. I have also changed jobs - from the exertion of manual labor to a career I love, but don't expend a bunch of calories at. Logistically I have a hard time scheduling in spinning classes and so forth plus gym time is so expensive!
While single and working like a plow horse, I was able to maintain my figure simply because I did NOT keep junk food in the house and my job burned them off anyway.
I also understand that I am a carb junkie, so keeping away from that stuff meant not having it in the house to grab and maw on in the evening. I am an evening snacker and that is my total downfall every single time. I've put 40 lbs on since he came back into my life. HE goes out and buys the ice cream, cake, cookies, beer, et al that I wouldn't keep in the house. Oh, he is a logger and skinny as a stick despite the ton of junk he devours daily.
Am I blaming him? No, I stuff the food in my own mouth due to proximity. I have asked him to NOT buy this stuff and he still does. If he wanted to help me lose weight I've given him the golden opportunity to do so but he chooses the junk food.
We also have not had sex in a year, but he still loads me up a bowl of ice cream when he gets one himself. He hugs me without prompting, and I know he loves me because he says so all the time.
I'm the one who dislikes the weight gain and I can go all day on a bowl of cheerios and a salad for lunch. It's when I come home at night that I stuff myself silly. I get the part where I'm supposed to tell myself NO but for some reason I still find myself with 4 pieces of jellied toast and a glass of milk.
I've lost weight on Atkins but fell off the diet wagon and got back on the cookie cart. It's all in my head, I have to figure out how to say NO around these temptations and even though he does the shopping and brings home all this garbage food, I don't really blame him for my weight gain. He doesn't shove it in my mouth, just my fridge! I know I'm not hauling my big fat ass out the door and power-walking... I could.. but I don't. Whose fault? Mine!
LW, meybe he has ED? My guy does, and without health insurance he isn't able to afford the doctor bills and meds just like I'm not able to afford a gym membership and spinning classes. I think if HE stopped drinking his ED would go away but I'm not holding out for that to happen.
So if we lose 40 lbs and our guys still don't want sex LW, then what's the problem? How about we forgive ourselves for our failings and try lose a few pounds just to be healthier for us, eh? I wish you luck!
Tori at March 28, 2010 8:50 AM
No, the science says eating LOW CARB is good for weight loss, and seems to offer some benefits, especially for coronary health, but the verdict is still out on whether a diet heavy in meat consumption is healthy overall, especially if it involves highly-processed meat and limits fruits and vegetables.
There are low-carb vegetarians (Eades, at least, seems to support them), and there are others who take a more moderate approach to meat consumption than what you are advocating. Touting meat as the "perfect food" is not what the science suggests because there are still a lot of studies linking heavy meat consumption to cancer and other diseases.
And plenty of books are written by healthy vegetarians too. Countless, really. Again, you embrace a book written by some clinically depressed vegan, who probably wasn't eating well, because you personally favor a high meat diet. That's your choice, but low carb does not have to mean heavy meat consumption.
lovelysoul at March 28, 2010 8:50 AM
"I propose we all meet at the LA '84 olympic stadium on new years eve and spend an hour just bitch slapping each other in person. Whaddya Say?"
Will there be enough parking space?
@Crid -- At least the red horses went 3-4 yesterday. Hats off to the Englishman though.
The refueling rule change is going to make for an interesting season!
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at March 28, 2010 10:33 AM
> I propose we all meet at the LA
> '84 olympic stadium
Co-ordinate the scheduling carefully: I'm calling in an air strike. Predator drone from the Westside.
> Hats off to the Englishman
Who was it that predicted success from the Empire? Why, it was me! (Thought it would be Lewis, but still...) (And that guy is turning out to be something of a little snot.) I'm OK with the refueling ban if it makes it safer, and no one's said otherwise yet.
But the best way to make the sport more interesting, especially with the slow, newly-expanded field, is to do away with the blue flags. The current rules are much like a tennis tournament where the net is removed from the court for the final match because the best players find it annoying.
Crid at March 28, 2010 11:03 AM
I don't know how true this is
Then why do you keep harping on it? Did you follow the link in my post? On that site you can see the nutritional breakdown of about any food you can think of, including different cuts and preparations of meat. I chose the braised cube steak as representative, but there are many more on there. 5.4 grams of protein per 100 calories of sirloin? Here you can see the nutrition facts of broiled top sirloin. This clearly shows almost 14 grams of protein per 100 calories. This is a fattier cut of beef than the one I posted earlier, but it still has the majority of its calories from protein. Please go to this website and actually do the calculations before you claim that broccoli is more protein-dense than beef. It's just not true.
NumberSix at March 28, 2010 12:19 PM
So, my SO seemed to be an employed, clean, decent person, but after we got married, he became an unemployed sloppy drunk who was either slouched on the couch watching tv or surfing the net looking for pRon every damn day.
I got totally turned off, and his constant begging for blow jobs with no reciprocity annoyed and angered me. (He stopped bothering to shower/wash his hair/at least brush his teeth.)
So, you know, the hell with him.
tammy at March 28, 2010 12:20 PM
Also, lovelysoul, I would like to say that there are definitely healthy vegetarians. I am one of them. But it takes a lot of work to make sure I get enough of what I'm supposed to have. Leafy greens are great for you (not to mention really tasty; I just made some roasted broccoli with red pepper and some lemon zest), but you cannot just assume you're getting enough protein from them alone. I take a lot of care to integrate protein-rich foods in my diet, and I still worry about it. That's the downside for me to being a vegetarian. I have to pay a lot more attention to the protein I'm getting than I would if I ate meat. And I'm always honest about that with people that ask. It's not always an easy way to eat, and I don't want people to delude themselves into thinking that it is.
NumberSix at March 28, 2010 12:25 PM
Ooh, slap fight about losing weight! I lost 20 pounds--slowly, the right way--by cutting back on food in general and eating no snacks. If I eat a lot of carbs one day, I eat nothing but proteins the next. You might recognize this as...moderation in all things...
tammy at March 28, 2010 1:01 PM
@ NumberSix - I have heather diet as a veggie than I did before *precisely* for the reasons you state. I pay attention - before I didn't. Yum beans!
Yup lovelysoul I believe the jury is still out over the long-run implications of how healthy very strict low-carb/only eat meat diet. Tune in again in twenty or so years when we have better data ... .
AntoniaB at March 28, 2010 2:20 PM
Numbersix, I don't know how long you've been vegetarian, but you needn't stress so much about protein. I have friends who've been vegetarian for 30 or 40 years, and they're very healthy without monitoring every bite they eat. You can get plenty of protein and nutrients from vegetable sources. As AntoniaB says, eat your beans...and brocolli.
lovelysoul at March 28, 2010 4:07 PM
Numbersix, I don't know how long you've been vegetarian, but you needn't stress so much about protein.
Wow, I'm basking in the warmth of your condescension. I don't stress about it. I do get protein from vegetable sources-- hence the name vegetarian. I don't know why you think I don't and that I don't eat my beans or broccoli, because I just posted above about my diet. I just pay attention. You do have to pay more attention to protein when you don't eat animals. I also don't know why you assume I monitor every bite I eat. Are you trying to make me out to be super controlling or something? When I said that I still sometimes worry, I meant that, even after ten years, I have to sometimes stop and think about how much protein I've had that day, and then I can adjust my eating accordingly. Soy sausage patties for breakfast? Don't need to have tons of protein at dinner. No leafy greens early in the day? Better have some sauteed kale tonight.
And telling someone who is a vegetarian or contemplating becoming one that they needn't stress about protein is bad advice. You don't need to stress, exactly, but you do have to-- here's that phrase again-- pay attention. It's not as easy to get enough protein as a vegetarian as it would be if you ate animals. Fact. No plant source has as much protein density as meat. It's not especially easy, even though I never really ate meat to begin with, it just gets to where you can do it by habit and knowing about the foods you eat. You can't just eat broccoli and hope for the best.
Antonia: I'm the same way. I never really ate much meat before, but now that I pay attention to alternative protein sources, I'm getting more than I was before I gave up meat. It's all about just knowing what you're eating.
NumberSix at March 28, 2010 6:53 PM
I am now convinced you're the second biggest idiot on this forum. Did you see part about "accepting money"? Do you think I'm being paid to post here.
And as for the all-meat diet...
I have pointed this out to you in the past, but I never said Atkins was all-meat. But Amy has advocated an all-meat approach, at least initially in the diet.
If you just bother to READ the thread, you'd have seen it. She has said this many, many times. How dense are you?
See it now, Lobster, you fucking moron? Amy's only mentioned this in the past about half a dozen times.
Look again. Pay attention to the bolded parts.
And again...
Yep, that's an all-meat diet right there.
Patrick at March 28, 2010 11:59 PM
By the way, if I had to eat like that for a month, I'd lose weight, too. I'd be sick of those four foods (which I was never wild about to begin with), I'd stop eating. BLEACH!
Patrick at March 29, 2010 4:13 AM
I read this column and the responses and must throw in my two-cents.
A while back, I noticed my husband of 19 years was "just looking around" a lot. So I took a good look at myself and then took the Advice Goddess's advice concerning men and their visual sexuality. I dropped 15 lbs.
At a birthday/pool party for a classmate of my youngest child I was complimented on my improved shape by the other moms in attendance. When asked what motivated me, I responded "I want to be the only one my husband leers at!" This set off a firestorm of caustic comments. It seems my husband was a complete pig for wanting to ogle any woman including his wife and I was little more than a brainwashed enabler for working myself back into shape. According to my fellow mid-life moms we are all at an age where we can be real women and relaxed (20-30 lbs. overweight) with who are. We should all be loved and cherished for what we are on the inside. The men in our lives should just deal with this without complaint.
When I told them I not only wanted to be loved and cherished by my husband, but lusted after as well I was booed. Seems if I were a "real mom" I would be too busy with my kids to be interested in sex with my husband. I spent the rest of the party running around with the kids while the moms sat, talked and ate.
I don't socialize with this crowd anymore. It seems I received a few to many mentions by their husbands concerning how well I "keep myself up", and am no longer welcome.
Jan at March 29, 2010 9:37 AM
Good on you, Jan. Sounds like you need a better class of people in your life, anyway.
Patrick at March 29, 2010 10:10 AM
Jan, that was a GREAT story! I have seen that several times myself when I have taken my girlfriend to married people functions. None of the women will have anything to do with her, and she is 5 years OLDER than most of them! But, all of the guys come up secretly to nudge me and ask where I found her!
mike at March 29, 2010 11:26 AM
Everyone in a relationship wants to be loved for more than the physical package, and it's not unreasonable to want that. But taking care of yourself and looking attractive is a way you show love for your partner.
MonicaP at March 29, 2010 11:28 AM
Perhaps LW should just keep chowing down, and have Tony Robbins pull a "Shallow Hal" on her BF, so he can see her for who she really is iside the fat suit. True love conquers morbid obesity, happy ending!
I may have mentioned this in another post - and hate to sound like a spammer- but Medifast did amazing things for me (and numerous friends). Lost 35 lbs since XMAS. Wife never complained much about my chubbiness; but always encouraged me to get healthy - with several good reasons. Not only do I look better [She sez "I have the old you back!"], I'm dropping BP & cholesterol meds, and I feel great! Atkins was great a couple years ago for a smaller quick weight loss, but docs say I cannot do hi-protein long-term due to a kidney condition. I have definitely cut back on the carbs, though; not to mention portions & calories.
Mr. Teflon at March 29, 2010 2:02 PM
"I propose we all meet at the LA '84 olympic stadium on new years eve and spend an hour just bitch slapping each other in person. Whaddya Say?"
Love this idea. I'll have to save up for the flight though. But I suspect it would be very interesting.
Has anyone else noticed that in this admittedly fascinating dietary deathmatch that we've scared off the very brave LW who was willing to venture into this forum? Despite some extremely harsh commentary (from me as well I agree).
It's a very strange situation, because we both seem to care about each other too much to pull the plug, but not enough to commit 100% to fixing things.
I'm no stranger to unusual situations LW, so I understand that. All I can say is that if you're communicating and trying to work it out at least you have a chance. One of your phrases in the printed letter set me off because it sounded unfair - but there are obviously two sides to this. Good luck!
Ltw at March 29, 2010 6:46 PM
And Patrick, don't hold back so much - tell us what you really think :)
Ltw at March 29, 2010 6:48 PM
All right. I will tell you what I think. I think the idea that there's no "science" behind Jake's method of losing weight and keeping it off is idiotic. Of course, there's science behind it. You think Jake is some bizarre anomaly that can't exist in the real world? Obviously, he does. And yes, his approach is scientific. Calories out > calories in = weight loss. It might not be the approach that Amy espouses, and it might not even be the "best" approach, but it is an approach that works, obviously. And it's the approach Jake prefers. And it's simple arrogance and self-righteousness to insist that your approach is the only "right" one.
I couldn't follow an all-meat diet for an entire month, especially eating nothing but hamburger (as in no catsup, no cheese and no bun) for an entire month, steak, bacon and eggs. I'd give up after a few days, I'd be so sick of eating that bland, tasteless garbage.
So because I choose to follow the calories out > calories in...which absolutely does work, that means I'm "wrong," even though I could adhere to such a regimen for a month, while all-red meat and eggs makes me want to give up eating.
If you're referring to Lobster, the little pea-brain has been badgering me for months..."Waaaah! Why are you lying about low carb being all-meat? Waaaah! Stop telling lies! Waaaah!"
I never said that low-carb was all meat. I was referring to Amy's recommendations for her friend, which she has shared many times, which is all-meat for the first month. IT'S RIGHT THERE!
Little pea-brain needs to read before shooting his stupid mouth off.
He also claimed that it was a straw man when I said that I do not subscribe to the idea that fruit is bad for you. Uh, that's also in evidence if the little moron would read. Amy says it above, several times, that fruit is bad for you.
Dumbass.
Patrick at March 30, 2010 2:27 AM
Scroll up a bit Patrick (well actually a lot given how this discussion has blown out) to see how I lost weight the one time I let myself blow out. Calories in
Sense of humour transplant required perhaps. For the record, although I love meat and eggs - I'm a 'cook two steaks for myself and one for everyone else, who makes an omelette with less than 5 eggs anyway' kind of guy - I tend to agree with you that I don't think it's a healthy diet. Maybe it works for weight loss in the short term - I'm still glad I didn't suscribe to the common wisdom when I was losing weight that you had to cut out all fat and sugar, a decent meal with gravy and butter makes a big difference when you're hungry - but the envangelising of the "One True Way" gets to me too sometimes. Blanket bans on fruit and carbs are silly.
Ltw at March 30, 2010 2:51 AM
Damn HTML filter ate half my comment. Reminder to self, use the preview function!
'Calories in less than calories out plus lots of exercise - I never worried about carbs/protein/whatever, just made sure I was getting a fairly varied diet but not too much of anything'.
Ltw at March 30, 2010 2:57 AM
Hey, I'm ok with my husband loving me for my looks. I'm a fatty. Haven't always been a fatty, but really need to take the weight off. When I got married, I anticipated living a very active lifestyle, both my husband and I were very active. Now, neither of us are. Of course, the only one of the two of us gaining weight is me.
In short, losing weight and keeping in shape is just more attractive than being fat. (And honestly, I miss the oogling.)
Nicole G at March 30, 2010 4:30 PM
Thought this was interesting...
From "The Comparative Anatomy of Eating", by Milton R. Mills, MD
Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed
Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle
Jaw Joint Location
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars
Jaw Motion
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Major Jaw Muscles
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids
Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
CARNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
OMNIVORE: Large
HUMAN: Small
Teeth: Incisors
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Teeth: Canines
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted
Teeth: Molars
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps
Chewing
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary
Saliva
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Stomach Type
CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple
Stomach Acidity
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Stomach Capacity
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract
Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length
Colon
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated
Liver
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Kidney
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine
Nails
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails
Kim at March 30, 2010 8:21 PM
Oh, holy hell, not this again. I spotted several inaccuracies and skewed conclusions up there, but I honestly can't get into it again. Anyone else feel like giving it a go?
NumberSix at March 30, 2010 11:00 PM
Were it not for our forbearers eating meat we would not even be having this discussion.
Humanities eveolutionary gamble was increased brain power at the expense of infant survivability.
Ever seen herbovore infants? Up and walking around almost instantly, able to move with the herd right away.
You dont want to eat meat? Fine, you want to be preachy about it have the fucking decency and consistancy to give up EVERYTHING that eating meat has provided - namley civilization, technology, and the brain power that elevates you above the comomn animals
lujlp at March 31, 2010 1:48 AM
Is spelling one of the things that elevates us above the common animals luj? I don't like preachy vegetarians either, but I think you're over-reaching with that argument.
Ltw at March 31, 2010 2:22 AM
> Were it not for our forbearers eating meat
> we would not even be having this discussion.
Yeah, but you can say things like that about any pre-human ancestor, including shit-eating animals that you don't want to think about too much. Sagan wrote a book about this kind of thing.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 31, 2010 2:33 AM
Meanwhile, I maintain that fat women are only good for two things: Sex and conversation.
C'mon, no one is going to defend morbid –or even distracting– obesity.
Being an asshole about it is mostly just a generational affectation. A couple of centuries from now the fashions will no doubt swing again.
Crid [CridComment at gmail] at March 31, 2010 2:35 AM
Reverse the sexes of this story... would half of you be saying what you say?
I think not. Especially the "it's all his fault"ers...
TMOTS
The Man On The Street at March 31, 2010 5:30 AM
Actually, I just started a low-carb / high protein regime about two days ago, and so far so good. The only issue that is eating at me (if you'll pardon the pun) is that one of either Eades or Taubes, I can't remember which, stated outright that humans have the same digestive system as a big cat and were therefore designed to be carnivores. I cannot find any evidence of this; as a matter of fact, common sense and evolutionary biology seem to negate this opinion entirely. If there are sound scientific reasons for eating more protein and fat and less refined carbohydrate--and certainly there are, particularly considering the damaging effects of sugar--I am comfortable that I am not damaging my health. It is that one carnivore comment that has me wondering...
Kim at March 31, 2010 6:10 AM
Physiologically, we are clearly better suited to be herbivores. Thanks for your post, Kim. Our closest evolutionary cousins are apes and monkeys, which can be either omnivore or herbivore, but they mostly eat a plant-based diet. They aren't adverse to eating meat but rarely go out and hunt for it. So, meat is clearly not "necessary" to their diet, nor ours.
And N6, I didn't mean to sound condescending earlier. I only meant that new vegetarians often worry too much about protein, and that's because the protein recommendations are inflated. We only need about 15-30 grams of protein a day, which is very easy to get from plant sources.
Here's a brief summary of how protein recommendations became so inflated:
http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/proteins/how-much-protein-do-we-need.html
lovelysoul at March 31, 2010 6:57 AM
lovelysoul, kim, have you ever watched a nature documentary? our primate cousins spend their entire lives eating, almost non stop, and still flirt with starvation
lujlp at March 31, 2010 12:08 PM
Luj, they also don't get cancer, diabetes, arthritis, or most of the other ailments we face. We're not as big as apes anyway, so we don't need as much food.
The point is that we are certainly omnivores, not carnivores, and most likely, better suited to be herbivores. Plenty of people eat a plant-based diet and are not starving. Vegetarianism doesn't lead to starvation.
Besides, nobody has to stop eating meat entirely, but a more moderate approach, such as the one Dr. Fuhrman recommends, of limiting meat and concentrating instead on mainly consuming fruits and vegetables seems wise, and in keeping with how our bodies are best designed to eat.
You can still do this and be low carb. These diets are not inherently in conflict. The low-carbers have simpy made a leap of faith: "if low carb is good, and meat is low carb (or no carb), then consuming voluminous amounts of meat must be good for you."
That isn't what has been proven at all, and, in fact, it conflicts with numerous studies suggesting heavy meat consumption is unhealthy long-term.
lovelysoul at March 31, 2010 1:11 PM
lovelysoul, I hadn't read that particular article, but I did read a study a while back (I really need to start writing this stuff down so I can remember) that said the same thing. We absolutely need protein to survive and be healthy, but the minimum is not as much as we think it is. When I look at the protein content on nutrition facts on labels, I usually up the percentage it says, because that tends to be based on a 65 grams per day average. Of course, I also don't get 2000 calories a day, because I am significantly smaller than the average the 2000 calorie diet is based on.
My entire argument on this is that, as you say, we are omnivores, so we need protein, and there are more concentrated sources of protein that vegetarians don't eat, so it is harder, even though I'm not getting that 65 grams that is supposedly recommended for me.
NumberSix at March 31, 2010 1:39 PM
lovelysoul, we are no bgger than chimps, baboons, and other monkeys.
The reason they dont get diebeties is they dont sit around inhaling twinkies. The reason you dont see arthritis is beacuse its a death sentance.
Physical ailments = death for animals
http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm
Also if were 'natural' herbavores explain away the fact that chimps, our closest genetic cousins, also eat meat
lujlp at March 31, 2010 9:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDFh5JdYh7I
lujlp at March 31, 2010 9:55 PM
I also think the problem withmany "fatties" is that they dress the wrong way. You can be 10 pounds overweight and still look smoking hot, if you would just respect your bodyshape and not try to squeeze into that tight tanktop or those lowrider skinny jeans. And once you reel a man in, keep putting effort into your appearance. Get your hair done, use some make-up, put on a nice skirt every once in a while, and ditch the granny pants!
Mis Q at April 23, 2010 8:56 AM
I disagree in recommending lowcarb diets. I don't think they are healthy.
Losing weight is simply a matter of burning more calories (energy) than you take in.
Anyone who tells you different is either selling you something or looking for a fellow acolyte to bolster their belief in something they bought.
Calorie counting in not as obnoxious or hard as people think, as long as you take it at a moderate rate like 1 pound a week. It can even be fun.
I used this approach called "The Hackers Diet" a few years ago to take off 48 lbs and years later all but about 5 of them are still off:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/
Steve at June 13, 2010 8:48 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/03/gained-40-lbs-q.html#comment-1723397">comment from SteveYou disagree, Steve, based on your extensive background in dietary science? Because while Gary Taubes spent seven years straight reading through all the research on diet, you really did your homework?
A calorie is not a calorie is not a calorie. More calories are "wasted," per Dr. Michael Eades, when the calories are non-carb than when they are carb, and they are used more efficiently.
You "don't think they are healthy" based on what? Your opinion?
If your opinion is not based on data, and an ability to read the data (if, for example, you don't know what "valid" and "reliable" mean, or why a cohort study isn't the best), keep your opinions to yourself.
Amy Alkon at June 13, 2010 9:06 AM
So, I first read this column almost 6 months ago. Ms Alkon strikes me as being level headed, down to earth and capable of some serious critical thinking. So I followed her recommendation and read "Good Calories, Bad Calories" and "Protein Power".
Thank you, Ms Alkon!
Acting on what I learned from those two books, I've lost 30 pounds in the last five months. I still have 15 to go, and I haven't "plateaued" or leveled off - so I'm sure I'll get there.
I eat all I want whenever I'm hungry, I don't worry about calories, I don't worry about fat. I do have to worry a little about making sure I eat enough because I don't crave food the way I used to, and when I get busy I sometimes forget to eat.
Also in the past 5 months:
Blood pressure is normal and I've discontinued all three blood pressure meds I was taking for the past 10 years. Lipid profile (cholesterol, HDL, LDL, VLDL, triglycerides) is now within the normal range. Blood sugar and A1c have come down to the normal range. And I feel a hell of a lot better.
After reading Taubes' and Eades' books I went out in the garage and dug out my old Human Physiology textbook from college (I'm a Registered Nurse), and read the sections on organic metabolism and the roles of insulin and glucagon. I was curious to see if what is said by Eades and Taubes (and Atkins and many others) agrees with what is in the textbook (supposedly the science). And there it all was in all its technical detail. There is nothing new about it; this has been well known for a long, long time. I got an A in that class, but I feel like kicking my own ass for not zeroing in on this and remembering it.
(Taubes' book doesn't have a diet program or advice on how to lose weight; it discusses the research done over the past 150 years on the relationship between the chronic diseases of civilization (heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity) and diet. It gives you the scientific rationale for the low carbohydrate diets. It's 600 pages of small print and often dull reading, but it's worth the time).
I'm sorry if this sounds like some kind of corny testimonial. I'm a middle-aged man who has been trying unsuccessfully to lose 40 pounds of excess fat for the past 15 years, following all the best expert wisdom and advice, and suffering miserably from the effort. And now to find out that I can actually lose the fat so easily... I'm kind of excited about it, and I'm grateful.
Ken Richards.
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Jackson at April 14, 2014 1:19 AM
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