"You're a cold and heartless machine."

Funny, because that's exactly what she would like him to be. A machine that gives her sperm on demand.

for the third time, threw her engagement and wedding rings at me and said to sell them.

For the THIRD time? What was his response the first two times? I read a book recently about a woman who came back home because her baby sister was getting married. The sister would throw plates and call off the engagement whenever they had a disagreement, and finally her fiance had enough and told her she wasn't mature enough to get married. And she was surprised. The longer the LW puts up with the bullshit his wife throws at him, the more ingrained in her it becomes. The really scary part of the letter is this:

Obviously, the dynamic here isn't good, but the real problem is she can be amazingly sweet and giving. These extremes really scare me, for our future as a couple and as possible parents.

LW, if you're reading this, this comment sounds very much like the rationalizations that come from women in abusive relationships who desperately want to stay in them. You know why it sounds like that? Because you're in an abusive relationship. Why did you marry her in the first place? You've only been married eight months and admit she's always been "difficult." She screams at you to give her a baby, says you're pure evil when you hesitate on the baby, and yet you STILL want to produce said baby? I'm firmly with Amy on this one; just skip the whole counseling thing (it only works if there is a relationship to save, and you never really had one of those) and get the hell out.

She's 42. She has no business having a baby. Leave it for the under-35 women, who have a half-way decent chance of carrying a perfectly normal baby to term. She's baby-crazy---and too profoundly deluded to even be trying.

Run. Run far and fast. Run.

She's baby-crazy---and too profoundly deluded to even be trying.

Over on Creators, Amy just posted responses to letters responding to this letter. A standout point: all you need to give birth are working ovaries and such (only when you try to adopt do they do background checks and a psych evaluation). If you would fail an evaluation to adopt a baby, you have no business trying to conceive one yourself. Their shrink's advice is highly amusing to me given the limited information I have at hand. It does not seem to me that there is a "relationship" to "get healthy." I would like to know more about how and why they got together in the first place, because she sounds like she has always been a few accessories short of an ensemble.

The Goddess writes: I'm not usually one to explicitly advise people to end relationships

Uh, since when?

I'm not saying your advice is wrong when you tell someone to kick some worthless toad to the curb, but I've never noticed you're at all shy about telling someone to do that...when it's called for.

LW: My wife has gone baby crazy.

Actually, she's just crazy. And she hasn't "gone" there, she's been residing there long enough to have made her final mortgage payment.

Amy is correct. We've discussed this many times on this board and there is a contingent that tends to dismiss domestic violence when it's committed by women, but that's what this is. If you threw something at her, even if it's just a pair of rings, trust me, she'd have no problem at all with accusing you of domestic violence, and the courts would have no trouble agreeing.

Once the threshold of actually throwing things at each other has been crossed, it becomes the slippery slope. As Amy points out, it will lead to heavier and more dangerous objects being used.

Run, Forrest! Run!

Classic Borderline Personality Disorder. Or as I call it, bat shit nuts. Run for the hills, and take your seed with you. I (mistakenly) married a gal with BPD, though at one point a shrink told me there was nothing borderline about her: she's bat shit nuts (is that term in the DSM-IV?) Of course the subsequent meth addiction she developed didn't add to her stability. On the positive side she's rotting in prison these days, leaving me free to raise our son, even though I feel more strongly about not having kids than Amy.

Mood swings with BPD are so like what LW describes: sweet as sugar one minute, raging crazy succubus the next. It's depressing. Run away. Or as Patrick said, Run, Forrest! Run!

Next time she throws those rings at you put them in your pocket and run like hell.

File for divorce immediately. Else be prepared to be in a living hell for the rest of you life.

I really don't get why there's such a difference in attitudes for so many people about women behaving like this and men behaving like this.

As has been mentioned before, if bat-shit-crazy woman were actually bat-shit-crazy man, LW wouldn't even have bothered writing in. If a guy is screaming, yelling, throwing shit, calling his partner "pure evil" and "cold and heartless", it's abusive violence. If a girl is doing the same, it's an annoyance that'll soon pass when she decides to become "sweet and giving". Fuck that shit. She's abusive, she's violent and she's bat-shit-crazy.

Run.

Egads. Run man run. No child should be intentionally brought into this world with a psycho for a mom. How do you think she's going to treat the little angel when it's keeping her up all night every night and barfing on her clothes? Hint: not good, if she can't even be civil to a polite and rational adult she's married to.

This sounds like Alex from the movie "Fatal Attraction."

The husband and I have been having great fun with this column since reading it on Creators.com. The phrase "cold and heartless machine" has fallen from both of our lips multiple times. We also think it's rather macabrely hilarious that this woman is so far gone that she thinks screaming at her husband is a more effective way of getting his seed than, say, hitting up Victoria's Secret and claiming to find him absolutely irresistible.

Obviously, the dynamic here isn't good, but the real problem is she can be amazingly sweet and giving.

Sigh. Of COURSE she can. I wish people would understand that real-life abusers are not the all-psycho-all-the-time characters you see on TV. People who are jerks all the time can't keep many people around. Abusers are nice because they want to keep you around. In fact, when they're nice, they can seem BETTER than an average person, because they're being nice as part of a strategy to keep you around, so they try to tailor their behavior to what you want. Non-psychos tend to do less of that; they're more likely to tell you if you're being irritating and behaving ridiculously. Abusers are successful when they manage to convince someone that their "nice" side is their "real" self, so that the psychotic behavior seems like an aberration. LW, she's nice to you so that you don't say, "Okay, beeyotch, I'm outta here!"

I agree with everyone else here: Run, Forrest, RUN! Run far, run fast, little rabbit. There's nothing for you here. NOTHING. You deserve better. She doesn't "deserve" to have ANY child, especially yours. Go! Go NOW! Do NOT pass Go, do not collect any damn thing but your self-esteem and sense of normalcy. GO!

o.O

The letter writer is an abuse victim, and like so many doesn't even see it and is sticking around for more.

I dated an abusive woman for 2 months, getting as far away from her as possible was the best thing I did in that relationship.

LW, maybe you can handle her, but what happens if you have a kid, and she screams and throws things and calls her children evil?

Sterling beat me to it, but this is classic borderline personality behavior. I've been with one also. It's nicknamed The Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde Disorder.

Wish I could tell you to run fast and don't look back but until she really hurts you you probably won't leave her.

From what my counselor friends tell me, marriage counselors almost never tell you something is hopeless. This sounds hopeless.

You should stop having sex with this woman. You do not want to father her child, and I doubt she much cares about your preferences at this point. I doubt she is using birth control while you work out these issues. As such, the only way you can be sure to not face a "surprise! I am pregnant!" moment is to stop having sex with her. That will likely result in a move out, divorce and the rest. But that is something you should not fear.

Amy is right! Next time she throws the rings, keep them. By giving them back you are becoming an enabler...

Why, why, WHY did this guy marry her in the first place? I'm guessing she was no better when they were dating.

At any rate, he needs to get the hell out of there before she figures out a way to oops him and he winds up not only with a crazy wife, but an emotionally and verbally abused kid as well.

It's not worth it, dude. RUN!

Consider this- if you were to have a child with this woman, your child would grow up thinking this behavior is normal and acceptable, and could end up with a partner just like Mommy Dearest. Imagine setting your own child up for a lifetime of the abuse you're suffering now. Not very responsible, IMHO.

Dateline 2015 – Shell-Shocked loves little Shell-Shocked Jr., age 4. Would do anything in the world to protect him, like any doting dad. But Mrs. Shell-Shocked, having just zinged another plate towards dad’s head, finally has had enough of whatever abuse she can conjure up in her warped imagination. Full of righteous indignation she hauls off to family court, swears out an OOP and doting dad is out of the house before he knows what hit him. Divorce and financial dismemberment soon follow.

Now little Jr. can start learning to dodge those projectiles since dad isn’t around anymore to be the target and barrier when mom indulges herself in one of her psycho rages. But dad is not left empty handed. He does get years of constant worry about his child, endless conflict about visitation, likely futile attempts to get Jr. away from this toxic environment, and a huge bill for it all. Might as well throw some parental alienation in the mix too.

Don’t like this story? The dateline might be off, give or take, but the scenario is all too plausible. Practice the ounce of prevention – RUN NOW. There is no pound of cure in this case.

Obviously, the dynamic here isn't good, but the real problem is she can be amazingly sweet and giving.

Straight out of Terrorism 101. The emotional roller coaster leaves the hostage emotionally exhausted and unable to fight back.

I say have the child with her. The LW can learn to love the resulting divorce, alimony and support expenses and violently crazy ex-wife drama until he's, what will it be, age 60?

You know, even the most dim-witted hobo can start a fire in a trash can just to feel the heat. The LW should treat his life like that trash can! Flames. Pretty. Burny.

I would recommend that the LW read the book "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Paul Mason and Randi Kreger. This is an excellent guide for people in relationships with others with BPD, which it sure sounds like this woman has. It has a lot of real-life vignettes and anecdotes to show that this behavior is all too common and completely unacceptable.

Holy hell, man! Run! Run for your life. Run as far away as you can.

If you can't understand how bad your situation is, imagine that your roles were reversed for a moment. Imagine that you were angry with your wife for her miscarriage and that you threatened her, threw things at her, and screamed at her, called her a heartless bitch. Imagine that you did this to your wife. Now tell me what would happen to you if you did? You'd be an abusive monster and you'd go to jail. Women like this drive me INSANE. They give the rest of us a bad name.

OVARIES ARE NOT A FREE PASS. She does not have the right to treat you like this. RUN.

Why, why, WHY did this guy marry her in the first place?

I've heard (from a psychologist relative) that BPDers attach themselves to people with weak personalities, which might explain why LW fell in. The abusers work to make the victims feel entirely dependent on them. By the time they're done, the victims are convinced that they cannot manage without the abuser; they're afraid to leave. I have a cousin married to a woman that seems to be BPD; she makes his and his family's life hell. Oh, and BPDers usually can't be helped, b/c they almost never take their medication.

He better consider that if she supposedly loved him enough to marry him and speaks to him like that, what will she do the first time Junior spills his milk on the carpet or hits the terrible two's, an age that could make Mother Theresa lose her temper. Why anyone would look at such behavior and procreate because there is the occasional sweet moment is beyond me. She is an abusive woman who will emotionally batter him and any children they have. He needs to get out, rings or no rings.

Another thing no one has mentioned yet... Let's say the LW and the banshee decide to procreate.

What's to say the resulting offspring won't inherit the mother's temperament/chemical imbalance/disorder?

The LW would be stuck with two bat-shit nutcases who are tied to him (probably for the remainder of his miserable life).

Things like this do have a genetic factor. My spouse's side of the family has had a history of schizophrenia, borderline PD, histrionic PD, ADD and so on. My sister-in-law acts exactly like the LW's wife (official diagnosis of BPD and HPD), only she's graduated to the point where she throws mirrors and slashes tires to get revenge.

She has a 10-year old son who's been diagnosed with severe ADHD, and he's starting to show signs of his mother's borderline behavior, although we're not sure if it's genetic or just learned, at this point. He's learned that throwing stuff, hitting others, having tantrums, threatening and screaming is one way to get what you want. He's also been expelled from three schools because of this behavior. Can't wait to see what happens when he hits his teen years.

Long story short, LW, there will be NO happy endings in this situation. You need to get out. If you willingly bring a child into such a relationship, you're an idiot. Plain and simple. And, even if you do have a child that doesn't inherit his/her mother's mental makeup, you'll never be able to get away from her, because that child will tie the two of you together.

Why did he marry her? Because BPD people work very hard to hide their dark side while they're courting you. You may get hints and glimpses, but you think that's just an occasional bump in the road. And as too many of us don't listen to Amy by keeping our eyes open during that courting phase, we fall into the BPD'ers trap.

My brother's BPD ex told him after the marriage (when all hell broke loose), "If I had shown you what I was really like, you wouldn't have married me."

The LW needs to run far and fast. There is no medication to control BPD, and the therapy is so long-term that even someone committed to working on it rarely ever makes it. The wife here doesn't sound committed to fixing anything other than filling her womb.

so... LW? Let's leave the Crazy out of this. I figure if you love her, it might sting a bit to have a buncha people confirming what you already know about her mental state.

Let's just talk reality.

She is in a VERY risky pregnancy age group in ANY case. The odds are good that the kid would suffer for that. She might as well.

She is not concerned with your opinion on this, and I would guess, a number of other things. When you read enough of these, you discover that there are women who want a kid, and a house, and a living. And they don't really care who the guy is. They are not LOOKING for a mate, or an individual, they are looking for a means to an end.

HERE IS THE IMPORTANT THING. Her power over you and the marriage is at x level now. Staying married has a very high risk to you, but you may be accepting that at the moment.

Once you have a kid, her ability to control everything is exponentially increased.

A divorce now is going to be ugly, but after the kid, she gets everything.

IMPORTANTLY. After she has the kid with you, there is no reason for her to stay with you anymore. You could lay money that she wont, but she will still make you pay for everything.

Add it up. Everyone can mention the various mental issues, or how abusive or whatever. Here is a cold calculation, You WILL be victimized by this woman, and it will essentially last forever. Till the kid is through college at least. You will be in your 60's then, and you will have no retirement savings because you will be paying her for all those years.

When everyone here says get out of dodge, it isn't a joke. Many of us live or have lived this nightmare. It would be better if you didn't do the same.

If you want peace, then live alone.

Nothing to do here but add another voice to the chorus. LW, if you're reading these boards, listen to all the good advice here and get as far away from this relationship as possible. The National Domestic Violence Hotline (www.ndvh.org) is a resource that can help you figure out how to do it, since a violently abusive partner isn't likely to just let you walk away.

And I 100% agree that you have to end all sexual relations with her. She'll scheme her way into a pregancy with or without your consent otherwise.

Good luck.

LW, get off the damn Internet and go call your lawyer and start packing your bags, right now. Seriously. If you wait until tomorrow, you may come home and find out that your dearest has slapped a TRO on your ass and you have been thrown out of your own home with nothing but the clothes on your back, and your wages garnished.

Your wife is a classic case of malignent borderline / narcissistic personality disorder. There is absolutely nothing you can do to change it, and even if your wife decides on her own to seek help, the success rate for treating NPD/BPD is very low. You are in an extremely precarious physical and legal predicament. Get out. Now. And for God's sake (sorry Amy), don't have sex with her again, ever, no matter what.

An aside: Amy, have you seen this?

http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/

Just another note from the child's perspective. My Mother acted just like this woman, only she was physically abusive as well. In those days no one believed a woman could be abusive, so my Dad did the best he could and stayed with her to protect us as best he could. As the oldest of 3 kids, I would pull her attention off of my little sister and baby brother if I was home. I still have nightmares, like the one where Mum pulled a knife on my little sister. Or the time Mum broke down my bedroom door when I ran away from her.

Please LW, DO NOT have a child with this woman. you are a big boy and if you want to suffer at her hands, that is your choice, tho not one I would reccomend. But please don't put an innocent child thru the horror that is an abusive childhood.

Remember that scene from the Amityville Horror where the demon urges,"GET OUT!"
Dude, Listen, I don't care how great the sex is she's a last straw looking for a camels back! To reproduce with her is making you an accessory to a crime against humanity and a future candidate for child abuse. She has more issues than Time magazine and you want to have a baby with her? You both need to be nuetered and spaded ASAP!

Adding my own voice (run away!!) to the chorus.

Although I just have to ask: who marries someone who "has always been difficult"? Obviously there were signs of instability (to be kind) before the wedding.

If she's psycho now, just wait till she's 8 or 9 months pregnant and heavy with baby, can't get to sleep, and is peeing every 10 minutes. That'll drive her around the bend. Skip the birth, cuz that's enough to make anyone nuts-o. Then, after the baby is home, sleepless nights, illnesses, thousands of dirty diapers, barf, more sleepless nights, etc. Like i said, if she's psycho now, just wait......

Now that i'm off my soapbox, i'll also add: this is a huge mismatch. Divorce her; move on. She is neither wife material nor mother material.

Hi,

Has she never had a child? Is she worried that time is passing, and once she is 44 or 45 it will be too late?

In that case it would be healthy anxiety only. I would imagine it would be excruciating to be told wait a few years until you are no longer upset, if the reason she is upset is because those years are slipping by. Just a thought.

J Moody? Healthy anxiety? Yes, she sounds very healthy. Maybe you should go have a kid with her.

Dude. What they said. GET THE FUCK OUT AND DON'T HAVE ANY PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH HER AT ALL.

If she gets pregnant, DEMAND A DNA TEST IMMEDIATELY.

Creating a baby with this woman would be a criminal act.

Get a vasectomy and then "give in." Problem solved. Women that age are so infertile that your chances of conceiving are very slim anyway so she shouldn't be suspicious.

BTW, you don't know it yet but you are getting a divorce. The only question is if it is with a child or without one.

Spot on Amy, as usual.

I strikes me that everyone says "RUN" when the real problem may be that certain people want to, but don't know how. Find a new place, maybe scrape up a big security deposit, move all your stuff, separate the bank accounts and credit cards, get your name off the bills, etc, etc, and all this under the scrutiny of your tormentor. I can see how this can be daunting. This is where guidance would be help. Let's recognize that this guy has a big job to do.

"It strikes me ....." "....would be helpful" should wear my glasses when I type.

Having seen a few relationships like this up close, I have this to say:

LW, she is not baby crazy. She is crazy. Whether she has shown it before this or not, she has always been crazy. She is just using the whole baby thing as an excuse to justify the crazy.

And the thing is, she WANTS to be crazy. It is how she has learned to retain another's love, and it is working.

I once was in a relationship with someone who could be incredibly sweet and kind...and incredibly nasty (not as bad as your wife, but "retard" was one of his pet names for me). Someone already mentioned Jekyll and Hyde. Now, I'm with someone who is incredibly kind. All. The. Time. And I am appalled at what I used to tolerate.

Leave. And don't you dare feel guilty about it.

I would imagine it would be excruciating to be told wait a few years until you are no longer upset, if the reason she is upset is because those years are slipping by.

Did you read the letter at the top of the page, J Moody? Did you read the part where she screams at him that he's a "cold and heartless machine" and then "demands that [he] get her pregnant"? Did you read the part where she calls him "pure evil" and throws her rings at him (for the THIRD time!) when he dares suggest (at the behest of their counselor) that they wait a bit on the baby? What about that strikes you as "healthy anxiety"? I realize that there are women who desperately want a baby and fear their time is running out, but the (relatively) healthy ones find a man who also wants a baby and then slip into something not-so-comfortable in order to get it. The women who want a baby when their partners don't tend to be more slyly manipulative than this woman has been. As sofar above states, this woman is not baby-crazy, she is just crazy. The baby is simply her excuse of the moment. Dollars to doughnuts says she's flipped out like this about stuff before and hubby just doesn't know it.

I like the rest agree that he should run. But I do have some sympathy for the wife. Just a smidgen. She is 42. At that age the biological clock is ringing loud and at that age you can not really hit the snooze button for another 5 years. He is saying wait - wait. You try telling a person who is really thirsty or hungry just to wait another few more hours before drinking or a couple more days before eating. She can not really wait much longer! I agree it is go time.

I do think she is acting completely inappropriate to the problem - yelling and violence is never a good answer. She needs to figure out that talking with him will work a whole lot better then yelling and throwing a tantrum.

Also is this woman so incompetent in getting pregnant. I agree with Marion can't she seduce him!

Laser plumb bob mentioned an important factor. He may want to leave but doesn't know how. As someone who left an abusive marriage I know how that feels. Its something that many don't understand and usually say something along the line of, "why not just leave." By the point that you want to leave, you have spent a long period of time with someone who has eroded all of your self-esteem and decision making capability. Often, you accept responsibility for the abuse because, well, the abuser has assinged that responsibility to you for so long you begin to accept it as truth. LW needs to get out and I think deep down he knows that and by writing Amy he is asking for help signaling that he knows this is wrong. He needs to pick a few close trusted friends if he has any who will support him through the process. Once he tells someone what he has probably kept hidden, he will find that there are people willing to help him.

I agree that the baby thing isn't the real source of the wife's issues -- it's just exacerbating things. I do feel some sympathy for the wife, given the nature of BPD. There's an interesting article here about BPD and the one type of therapy that's been found to be helpful (an offshoot of cognitive behavior therapy):

http://consults.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15/an-expert-look-at-borderline-personality-disorder/

Basically, BPD sufferers get very, very easily overwhelmed by their emotions much in the way a two-year-old does...but two-year-olds are 1) cute; 2) short and easy to pick up and haul away; and 3) not that good at being manipulative.

That having been said, this woman is in therapy and isn't even trying to use it to get past her difficulties. I can see a "normal" woman, under the stress of infertility and fear, throwing her rings at her husband...once. But afterwards, she'd be more than apologetic -- she'd be devastated about her own behavior, as well as scared. Because a normal woman wouldn't just view her husband as a walking sperm tank. He's the guy who bought her those rings because he loves her, fer crissakes, and she'd feel genuinely horrible about having been horrible to him. I'm not seeing that here.

Kids are wonderful, but they're some of the most annoying creatures on the planet, because they're supposed to be. You may be exhausted at 2 am, but your newborn needs to eat, and her needs trump yours. Teething and vaccines often make babies cranky and feverish; you rock them and wait it out with the help of baby Tylenol. An 18-month-old who is exhausted and overwhelmed doesn't care that you need the perfect laser pointer for your career-making presentation in two hours; he can and will scream and thrash until you get him out of the store. Two-year-olds are supposed to go around saying, "No!" if you don't want them asking you to tie their shoes when they're 12. Four-year-olds are supposed to say, "No, I can do it, Mommy!" Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. Does ANY of this sound like something this woman could do with a modicum of grace? And we haven't even gotten to the teenage years yet, or considered what would happen if she had a "spirited" kid, or an autistic kid, or a kid with cancer.

I do feel sorry for her. But I feel much sorrier for the hypothetical kid she's trying to conceive. If this guy allows himself to feel too sorry for her, that hypothetical kid may become a real kid. He needs to avoid that at all costs.

Like Kat above, I was a child in a relationship like this, except that my mother wasn't physically abusive.

Children don't understand why their mother would tell them they are worthless, useless, etc. if it is not true. If she was mad at us (I have a brother), she would go destroy one of our favourite toys. In front of us. When I was five, I told my father, "I don't think Mom really loves me. I think she acts really nice to me sometimes so that it will hurt more later when she is mean again."

You really shouldn't ever have children with someone like this. To give my mother some credit, she didn't want children. It was my father who convinced her. I guess he thought it would make her more loving and stable. He was wrong.

Kristen, it would be educating to hear about the steps you actually went through in the process of leaving your abusive ex. Especially what you did to protect yourself from a legal and financial standpoint. My ex wasn't physically abusive, but she was incredibly irresponsible with money and she would have ruined me if I had not taken steps promptly once I realized what was going on.

Dear All,

I know you are all having trouble in understanding why this chap is with this woman.

Some people weave such a big web of lies around themselves and are so convincing and so intense that they get you believing that you are part of the problem.

It isn't just a couple of hours - it's all day and night. After someone asking you continually "why did you have to say/do/not do that to spoil our happiness?" you start to believe it. They also rope your friends in too, to make it more convincing.

Your life becomes like a warped version of the Truman show.

Even after you have left you still end up looking
over your shoulder, scared that they will turn up and send your life straight to hell again, somehow.

Take heart - you can get out - and you should. You never win because the rules keep changing. If you think you can be hurt now - think of your future children and what you would be condemming them to.

John Paulson said: "She is 42. [...] I agree it is go time. [...] She needs to figure out that talking with him will work a whole lot better then yelling and throwing a tantrum."

No. And no again. Even their therapist agrees that they need to wait to have a stable relationship before they have a child. And their relationship isn't stable; it's like a boat in a rainstorm. They've only been married 8 months (he doesn't say how long they dated before then). There is no good reason for her to get pregnant, biological clock or no.

If she's that worried about having a child, then they need to consider adoption instead of biological children. There is no law saying that if you can't get pregnant, you can't have children. There are plenty of children in this world that need a loving home.

Not that I think this woman is the kind to give it to them, for the record. I think this is one of those types of people who just won't make a great parent.

But just because the sound of your biological clock is like a the high school drum line, you don't get sympathy for being a psycho.

Cousin Dave, I was very lucky in that I had met an acquaintance through my son's school who saw a few things and in a non judmental way pointed them out to me privately. I have to say that it was the beginning of me talking about things and not pretending everything was perfect. It also should be noted though that I came from a family that was very dysfunctional. My dad was an alcoholic and I honestly thought what he did was normal and what every dad did because I had learned so early how to put the best face on things which made it very easy to enter into an abusive relationship.
I was also blessed in the fact that a friend from high school had become a divorce lawyer. We had lost touch over the years but when he hear what I was going through he contacted me and handled my divorce at no charge. Had I had to pay, my divorce would have easily cost over $20,000 that I did not have. Many people blame the attorneys for that, but the whole system is set up in a way that makes divorce a very long and difficult process which adds up costwise. There are people who think that is a good thing but I'm not one of them.
As far as financial, I have struggled since my divorce, but have always managed to keep my head above water. I made a promise to myself that I would never end up on welfare and so far have kept that promise to myself. The most important thing that came out of it was finding out who my friends were. They literally crawled out of the woodwork and I consider myself extremely lucky to have had the support system I had. It is why I always think that people are good. Unfortunately its the bad ones that get the attention. I think that the LW really needs to surround himself with supportive people he can trust. Its the most important step.
I'm sorry to hear that your ex was abusive Cousin Dave. I do think its harder for a man to get away from. My brother is still married to a woman who is brutal. People tell him that he should grow balls but they would have told me that what he was doing was abuse. Men have to deal with being considered less of a man and people thinking that if they just man up that the situation will correct itself. I'm glad you got out.

LW - you still have a chance at a happy life if you LEAVE... NOW... - and take your sperm with you. This is the woman who will hide a turkey baster in the bedstand, hijack your condom and knock herself up using your boys!
Sure, you can put up with her bs, but if she has a child, will you always be there to defend it? Wouldn't you rather meet a healthy nice woman and have a healthy nice relationship with a couple of healthy and yes, nice, children?
If you stay, you will never have that. Leave, now!

The "biological clock" argument is nonsense. She can freeze her eggs and have the children later if need be. No big rush.

"I like the rest agree that he should run. But I do have some sympathy for the wife. Just a smidgen. She is 42. At that age the biological clock is ringing loud and at that age you can not really hit the snooze button for another 5 years. He is saying wait - wait."

I'm pretty much with the chorus, but I'm curious whether he agreed to have a child with her before she married him, then suddenly threw on the brakes. He says she had a miscarriage last year, but he doesn't say whether this was his child. If it was, then he was already engaged in baby-making plans with her. Now, it seems he wants months or possibly years of counseling (which, of course, may be in order), but she is running out of time, and my guess is that he agreed to have a baby with her before marriage. A woman that age, who wants a child, probably wouldn't marry a guy unless he agreed to the baby plans. Remember, they've only been married 8 months and she was pregnant before, so this isn't some new longing of hers.

I can see being pretty pissed if I was upfront about my desire to have a child - even conceiving one with the guy - and after we officially marry (taking me off the market), he throws on the brakes.

It happens more than you think. The NY Post had a story like this the other day. A 40ish female writer was very blunt about wanting to have a baby before it was too late. The guy she was dating agreed and enthusiastically supported the idea - even paying for and participating in months of fertility treatments. Then, once she actually became pregnant, he changed his mind and demanded she have an abortion. She's suing him for fraud and breech of contract.

Kishke, you're wrong. Just because she banks eggs doesn't mean she'll have lots more time. My husband and I started trying to get pregnant in my early forties and couldn't. We didn't try in vitro, but we looked at the possibility, and I learned that after forty a woman's chances of actually conceiving on any given attempt at IVF are less than 10%. That's some bad darned odds, especially in the USA, where IVF runs about $20K per attempt.

Lovelysoul, I read that article too. I think though that she met him in August and was pregnant by December. Is that really a reasonable amount of time to know someone well enough to know if you want to have kids with them? And even if LW wanted kids and changed his mind, he has that right just as she would have had that right. Her behavior is abusive whether or not he made any promises to have kids. She has a right to leave if he changed the deal, not stay around to verbally abuse him.

I see. I wasn't aware that the percentage is so low. But is it much higher for in utero in over-40 women? If not, my point stands.

lovelysoul's not defending this psycho (I don't think); she's pointing out that hubby has a part in their problem. I also think the LW was complicit in the baby-planning thing. It's not like a switch flipped when she turned 42, going from "Normal Baby Desire" to "Batshit Crazy." She has been nuts all along, and he courted and married her anyway. I think he may be as desperate to have a family as she is, for whatever reason, but something tipped the scales (maybe the THIRD time she threw her rings at him? Sorry, I just can't get over that one.) and he finally realized that something was off about her. And still he wants to have a baby with her, just not right now. Because, you know, she can be "amazingly sweet and giving" when she's not a raving lunatic. Apparently it was a worthwhile trade-off until recently.

"a few accessories short of an ensemble"
LOVE that! Hope you mind if I use it, #6!

Yeah, the silly part of that NY Post story is that she's a writer that gives advice to other women about avoided jerks. Then, she totally gets conned by some guy she just met. And why? Because women do get crazy when the clock is ticking and they desperately want a child.

Even younger women do. When I was in my 20s, I had fertility problems. Each month I failed to conceive was such a huge disappointment. Your whole life becomes thinking about your ovulation, conception, and envying other people who can have a baby at the drop of a hat. Just going to the store and seeing a baby can make you cry.

I don't think men understand what an emotional roller coaster that is. And this woman just suffered a miscarriage last year, so she's haunted by the fact that she CAN still get pregnant...or at least she could a few months ago. Time is running out for her though.

Maybe she was bat-shit crazy all along, but it sounds to me that they've had some really big arguments about this. We don't really know what he's saying.

Having been through a nasty divorce, I've learned that emotional issues of such magnitude can bring out the absolute worst in people who are otherwise reasonably sane. Throwing rings really doesn't shock me. Saying "you're a machine"...well, she means he has no feelings, that he's cold and insensitive.

These are the kinds of things that happen in really ugly fights between lovers. So, I'm wondering what his part is in all of this. I think he's playing it way too innocent...like, overnight, he realized he was married to a crazy person. More likely, something specific has triggered this hostility.

"Throwing rings really doesn't shock me. Saying "you're a machine"...well, she means he has no feelings, that he's cold and insensitive. These are the kinds of things that happen in really ugly fights between lovers."

Jeeeezus christ, lovelysoul! I have NEVER, repeat NEVER, in the most dysfunctional fight in my most dysfunctional relationship, EVER had such things happen in "fights between lovers." Mature people in relationships owe each other a minimum standard of respect and decency even when angry. I have no sympathy for LW's wife whatsoever.

I didn't say it was mature. Certainly not. But, let's be real and not pretend that everyone calmly thinks through what they say and do when tensions get really high, and usually it takes TWO immature people to have these kinds of fights.

Some people won't engage in conflict, and others passively-aggressively antagonize conflict. Everyone has a certain conflict style. It can be particularly toxic when two people with incompatible styles come together. The LW is making this sound all one-sided, but I don't buy that he's not playing a role - that he's the picture of stability and maturity himself.

He either married someone he should've known had a major personality disorder, or there's something new that's creating extreme conflict. My guess is that he's backed off the baby-making plans. If so, he should just call the whole thing off, as should she. Don't hold it out like a carrot on a stick "after counseling." That sounds like a convenient delay tactic. If he doesn't want a child, he should just say so, and let her move on.

Maybe she's clinically crazy, maybe not, but they don't sound well-suited for each other at any rate. If she misses her chance to get pregnant, she'll always resent him for holding back her plans to have a baby, which is obviously very important to her.

This is one of those dealbreaking issues for a relationship. He must've known this when they married.

I'd also add that, as someone else mentioned, it's pretty rare for a therapist to weigh in heavily on one side or the other. They rarely say, "This person has all the problems. You're fine, but she/he is a lose cannon". In my experience with couples therapy, therapists try very hard to point out problems on both sides.

People also tend to hear what they want to hear in therapy (esp since most therapist speak in special "therapist-lingo"). If the therapist is really saying that she's the one with all the issues and he's just an unfortunate person entangled with a nutcase, then this is a no-brainer. Why even write to Amy?

lovelysoul: based on the info we have here, I'm voting for option #1- he married someone who has had major problems all along. Emotionally healthy people, even ones who are in the throes of need-a-baby syndrome, do not do what this woman has done. That said, I still think he is as much at fault for their situation as she is. You're right about his delaying her with the "after counseling" thing. He wants the family as much as she does for his own deep-seated reasons.

linny: I'm pretty sure I stole it from Jessica Wakefield in one of the Sweet Valley High books, so I don't know what kind of claim I have over the phrase. Hope I don't get sued for intellectual property theft.

"Last time I reminded her we agreed to wait on the baby, she called me "pure evil," and for the third time, threw her engagement and wedding rings at me and said to sell them. She says if we don't have a child right away, she'll hold me responsible."

Clearly, she did not really "agree" to wait on the baby. Maybe she meant until after dinner, but not months or years. She simply doesn't have that time. At 42, she is pushing it already. Apparently, she is still fertile enough to conceive, but women that age don't have many more opportunities to successfully get pregnant.

So, LW, unfortunately, you have put yourself in between a woman you supposedly love and the dream she wants more than anything in this world.

You may be right for doing this, but the time to assess whether she'd make a good partner, much less a good mother, was BEFORE you married her. In doing so, you committed to love her, and care about what matters most to her, and impeding her dream of motherhood, whether right or wrong, will never be perceived by her as loving. In fact, she perceives it as hateful, even "pure evil" for you to stand in the way of something you knew she desperately wanted (and was apparently trying for) before you married her.

Either get out of the relationship or get out of the way of her dream because I assure you that you will never be forgiven if she fails to get pregnant because you made her wait. If so, your relationship is over anyway.

So, you need to assess what the benefit of counseling will give you. Counseling can be helpful, but in this case, it looks like it will only deliver diminishing returns. Every day you're in counseling is one more day of resentment that you're building. No counselor is so great that he/she can compete with a biological clock.

You know her better than we do. If she was always insane (and you know this too), then get out! You married her 8 months ago, and you're not kids, so what did you think would happen? You'd assess her normalcy while deciding whether to have kids before the age of 50? C'mon!

There is, however, some chance that she might stabilize and become the sweet-natured person you've observed once she does achieve her goal of motherhood...or even if she fails after a fair try at it. Then, you could be there to comfort her as she suffers through that heartbreak.

But the place you do NOT want to be is the place you are now - in the way. The evil obstructor. If you honestly are afraid to have children with her, then you must leave. But if you have hopes of ever having a good relatiosnhip with this woman, you're going to have to love and trust her enough to give in on the baby issue.

To add another voice to this long string of comments: By no means should this couple have a child--and I hope he doesn't capitulate. I'll weigh in as yet another product of a marriage involving a similar egocentric shrew.

It'll bring near ruin to each new life they add into the mix.

Rather than considering anything on his wife's mind regarding the matter, he should mull over the morality involved in placing a child into a blast-furnace of insanity. If he agrees and they do have children, the couple will then have witnesses to the inevitable parade of new issues that will provoke the same kinds of petty tantrums and abuse. It'll always--always--be something. And it won't take long before she'll do this to her kids too. They'll spend their days listening for cracks in the ice. Then the couple can spend decades marveling at the various and surprising ways the abuse manifests itself in their offspring.

Finally, and as others have said, he can't react to that simple and obvious word of advice, "Run." He does not know how to, and it's my guess that people probably remark that he's "an incredibly nice man."

This guy thinks psycho woman is an incredible piece of a**.

That is why he puts up with her tantrums. I have seen what men will suffer for someone that fulfills their lusts.

This guy enjoys the flash in the pan Stockholm syndrome makeup sex too much. He will never move on until she destroys enough relationships around him.

It is normal for him to see interacting with a woman as an obstacle to get past. He is fueling her crazy fire.

Oh hai, I am the child from this relationship. Along with my unfortunate 3 younger siblings. Growing up, we all had our share of things flung at us, getting dragged out of bed to do random chores at midnight on a school night, and my dad pleading with me, 'Please, just do what she wants.' no matter how irrational the thing she wanted was. When I finally mustered the wherewithal to move out at 18, I felt like I was a hostage who had been rescued. LW- RUN!

From your advice, what resonates the most with me is that this guy thinks this is normal. He's been in an abusive relationship for so long that he has no idea what a positive, healthy relationship is really like.

Even if this woman is sweet and wonderful as he says, it would be a disaster to have a baby with her.

I think it's time to move on as sad as that may be.

He doesn't say how long they've been together, so we can't presume that this behavior is something he's gotten used to over time.

My guess is that he won't leave. He only married her 8 months ago. What caused him to do that? He must've felt she was "the one" at the time. It also sounds like they conceived a child before that, which she miscarried.

Now, he's essentially saying to her: Although I married you only 8 months ago, and we almost had a child together, I've decided that you're not quite stable - that you need counseling - and would probably make a bad mother. But hey, you're sweet, and I still love you."

That just can't work. No one can call their partner crazy and expect the relationship won't suffer.

Of course she's angry. I kind of know from experience that someone suggesting that you're crazy can almost drive you insane, and it's usually the crazy person who is the one making the suggestion.

There's a certain controlling personality type that depends on throwing the other person off balance and making them doubt their own sanity. The more I think about this case the more I suspect he isn't such a victim.

I mean, if their counselor has already stated that she has all the issues, and he's perfectly ok (which I doubt because counselors rarely say such things), then he should already have an answer. This just doesn't make much sense.

You know what? I knew a guy who did exactly that LS. She got knocked up, they got engaged, she miscarried, we warned him that it was a Message from God to GTFO.

But they got married anyhow, and intentionally procreated, and she went absolutely batshit fucking insane, and they separated.

She was totally fucking nuts. Pretty much ruined his life. She was so nuts that the state awarded him sole custody on the first pass.

That's awful, Brian. People often don't listen to sound advice. Your friends are usually pretty good barometers, and if there's a consensus that your partner is nuts, then you should GTFO.

But something seems off here. Like I said, therapists rarely weigh in strongly on one side unless there's a significant personality disorder (and often not even then, as I've learned).

My ex was always telling me that our therapist thought I was the one with issues, not him. What he took from therapy sessions was amazingly different from what I heard, and when I'd go to the therapist and ask her if she said certain things, implying I was crazy, she'd say, "Of course not!"

Yet, she still tried to play it more like 50/50 in our sessions. I only found out later (because my gf is her aesthetician and close friend) that she thought I should've gotten the hell out of the relationship. She never advised me that straight out though. I think they're trained these days to be wishy washy and "guide" you to your decision or some such nonsense...plus, it takes longer and they make more money than if they just say, "Your partner is nuts - get out!" That wouldn't require 50 sessions at $100+ each.

So, if a therapist is really saying to him that she's a "loose cannon", then that's very significant, and he really should have no qualms about getting out of this relationship.

But, somehow, I don't think we're getting the whole story. We don't know what the therapist is saying about him, and we don't know what he is saying to her during these arguments.

It really sounds to me that he wants some justification for backing out of the baby deal. It works if she's "crazy". That's a good excuse, true or not.

Lovelysoul, you ought to report that therapist. She knowingly discussed your private sessions with her close friend, who is also your friend. Kinda violates every professional boundary.

Yeah, I know. She shouldn't have discussed it, but she's my friend's friend, and I'd get my friend in trouble for telling me. Basically, she didn't really reveal anything too personal from our sessions, just that she was glad I got divorced. I guess that's really her opinion, which might be ok.

I just wish she'd been upfront about that - given me some solid advice rather than "shrink-speak". People go to therapy to find real answers. I appreciate Amy because she'll call it like she sees it. You may disagree with her advice, but at least you'll know where she stands, and you can weigh it and make choices accordingly.

I was married to my first wife for five years 35 years ago. She pulled the same stunt on me, including throwing the rings. She threatened to get pregnant with someone else and claim it was mine. We had two children before the divorce. I knew she wasn't normal but I didn't know about BPD. Her behavior fit what I have read here. I was in and out of court for the next ten years over false accusations, child support disputes, and her broken promises. I was constantly looking over my shoulder as far as she was concerned. She was an outstanding and believable liar.

She recently died of cancer. However, I still have nightmares about her. I wake up with a sense of relief when I remember she can no longer do any harm.

Get out now!

That sounds just like my ex-girlfriend (you don't live in TX do you? :)). And I agree with the possibility of BPD. The ex gf was never officially diagnosed (because they tend to avoid any long-term therapy) but I researched and researched and that fit to a tee.

GET OUT! Your life will never be any better, and in fact, will be progressively worse if you stay with her. That is, unless, she:

1. Admits she has a MAJOR problem
2. Commits to long-term therapy
3. Agrees to take medication
4. Sticks with all of the above

Which is 1 chance in 9,978,308,097,761,109,288.036

can't a marriage be annulled if it's less than a year old? and isn't that way easier than a divorce?

Run, don't stop to pack, just run.
Over 40 women should not be having babies. Over 40 couples should not be having babies.
So you want to be in your late 60's dealing with a brood of homonally charged teenagers, and wondeing how you will fuel your retirement fund and their college expenses at the same time.
Does you wife work, has she promised to help pay for the rug rats she wants, or is she looking to brood the ultimate in escapable meal ticket?
Divorce her now while the marriage is new and there are no kids and you will get off relatively cheaply. Have kids and you are her slave for life. By the way, did you get a good pre nup, or give in and get married without one when she threw a tantrum.
If you do have rug rats do you expect to have good quality face time with them, or are you plaaning on being a prisoner of your job, in order to support them and her.
I have a few male friends with good marriages and kids. The wives treat their hubbies like kings, and make a real contribution to keeping the household going. Your ball and chain seems to be running a teror campaign in an effort to put the screw on you even tighter.
Me I would like to get married, but I am fed up with plus 40 age appropriate women looking for a daddy for the brood they already have, or else infected with insane baby hunger. Doe shereally want a child, or does she want a tool for a big divorce settlement. Most of them are corporate whore, ooops sorry in sales and marketing, live very expensively off of current income, and have no savings to speak of. They all want babies and bring up the topic inappropriately early, yet not a one of them is real mother material. The young'uns are starting to look good, at least they have not had as long a time to screw themselves up.
Anyway, your life sucks now, and it will suck ore if you have a kid with her. Forget, the councelling, you tried it did not work she's a nasty bitch, get a good lawyer and an accountant, get a out of state safe deposit box, move your money into trusts, or run up a lot of debt to poison the community property well, and move out, and file for divorce before she gets pregnant by you or someone else (you will still be legally responsible for someone else's bastard as long as you are married to her when she got pregnant. ( I know more than a few guys paying child support on children that are not their's.) And there is always the chance she will up her game from verbal abuse to violence, do you have any sharp objects about the house?

Fred

My mom and my sister were both exactly as everyone here is describing, and I finally understand what the hell was wrong with them. BPD sounds pretty common.

The weird thing is, they were so co-dependent upon each other, that they died exactly one month apart, because my sister couldn't live without her evil partner. She just died last week.

The 2 of them left behind a wide path of destruction in the lives of everyone who had the misfortune of knowing them, and now that they're gone, we can all start the healing process.

There is no cure because they don't think there is anything wrong with them, everyone else is at fault.

I extend my deepest sympathy to all those who have posted here with their BPD stories, and hope you can move on. It feels strange to say it, but I felt absolutely nothing, no sadness on the news of their passing, just sympathy for those whose lives they destroyed, and a relief that the torture was finally over.

A baby? Seriously?
Babies are small creatures, sporting a soft spot that lets them be poked in the brain until the skull firms up. They can't do anything for themselves.
Again, they cannot do anything to care for or protect themselves.

You want to give a small, helpless human *who will be related to you* into the loving care of your verbally/physically abusive spouse? You want the pearls that fall from your wife's lips to be the words your child utters?

Do you truly believe that, at four a.m., when the little person has been screaming with stomach problems/colic/a cold, that she will be able to keep it together? Babies can't even hold up their own heads for awhile. How is this currently proto-human supposed to dodge missiles? How is a toddler supposed to know better than to believe that mommy saying she/he is the spawn of Satan isn't absolute truth?

She's pissed off at you for not doing what she wants. How is she going to deal with having her favorite shirt covered in surprise bodily fluids? How is she going to handle toilet training accidents?

Please think this out. She's not successfully maintaining a relationship with you, and you're a lot lower maintenance than a baby.

If I were you, I wouldn't have a kid with this woman if I had to choose between that and jumping off a cliff into Shark infested waters.

Hello everyone..I originally wrote to Amy seeking advice for my baby ultimatum problem. Thank you all for your comments and advice.

I would like to answer a few questions I saw repeatedly such as why I married her, what the therapist said about my contributions to the problems and why I dont just leave. Well..We dated off and on for a year before we got serious. During this time there were no big arguments or issues between us. She was very giving and thoughtful but I could also tell that she was an extremely emotional person by her extreme responses to situations. I rationalized that this was part of the territory and wasnt too concerned. We had fun and discussed marriage and a family. Given her age, we were encouraged by a doctor to start trying for a baby asap and to worry about marriage later. She got pregnant and things were mostly good. Then..three months later we had to abort the baby because of a genetic defect. I took it exceptionally hard, she less so.. at first. We decided getting married was the best thing at the time - looking back I think we just wanted comfort and this seemed the easiest way to deal with our loss. However, this is when the problems really started. Throwing things, threats, primal screams, name-calling.. then, during the same "conversation", she would ask when we would try to get pregnant again. Confused..

Counseling... the therapist said I was "reserved" and suggested I comfort my wife when she was screaming at me and not respond or be defensive when my wife was verbally abusive. My wife was a "loose cannon" that had to take responsibility for her actions, move on from her losses and stop seeing herself as a victim. We didnt follow the therapists' plan and we ended up going in circles. The primary issue for her is about lack of time in trying to have a baby. Of secondary concern is our marriage. She said "I will have a baby with or without you" and threatened to use a sperm donor if I wasnt on-board. She "tries" in our marriage by buying things for us or arranging fun things to do. She has initiated the IV process but, in her defense, is waiting another week for me.. All good, but our communication is broken, mean-spirited and not effective. Given this, my primary issue is our relationship dynamics and is the main reason I am afraid to have kids with her. I feel like a donor, that I am replaceable and all of this is being forced on me. I dont talk about the IV stuff with her because a huge eruption will be coming soon - Old Faithful indeed..I curtailed doing nice things for her because she "hates me" and I am "evil". No more motivation left.

I havent left yet because I sense, despite all of this, that there is something wonderful in her. Granted, that sense is getting pretty weak now but she can draw me back in so easily just by being like she was when we met. She pulls a lot of people in..

Anyway, thanks again to all of you for your comments, advice and support. It helps to know that others have walked away from similar experiences.

Hi panikkrazy,

Please listen to the advice everyone has given you. I work with men who married Borderline and Narcissistic women who wish to god that they had listened to that voice in their head that told them to get out.

The sweet, wonderful, loving aspects of her personality are an illusion. Abusive BPDs, NPDs and other sociopaths (a sociopath is someone with no empathy, no remorse and an inability to hold themselves accountable) develop a carefully crafted false "sweet" persona to lure unsuspecting victims into their webs. Once they're secure in your attachment (like after you put a ring on it), they expose their true natures.

They trot their "sweet" sides out when they're trying to manipulate others or as a device to keep you attached by keeping your hope alive. I call this phenomenon the tyranny of small mercies.

Get support for yourself separately from your wife. Join a forum. Do some reading on BPD and NPD. There are resources for men in abusive relationships, although they don't abound like sites for women---but they're out there.

This is not going to get better. She will not change for the better. It is only going to get worse. NPDs and BPDs are predators. When she senses she's losing control of you she'll amp up the craziness.

These are the kinds of women who like to call the police and have their husbands/bf's arrested on false DV charges. This typically happens when you refuse to give into their demands. If you won't yield to her authority, she'll find a higher authority to make you yield---the cops. If you haven't done so yet, I encourage you to invest in a small digital tape recorder and keep it on your person. Record her crazy, abusive and violent episodes. DON'T TELL HER YOU'RE DOING SO. When the cops turn up on your doorstep, it will be her word against yours. This might not come to pass, but until you work up the courage to get out, it's better to be safe than sorry.

On a side note, I know the author, Karen Salmansohn, who is suing her former "fiance." Her fiance was still married when they met and the author knew it and proceeded to get pregnant anyway, believing he'd leave his wife. Ironically, this author penned a "book" on how to train men as if they dogs who need to be housebroken, which I find unbelievably offensive. I guess the obedience training with her fiance didn't take.

Best wishes,
Dr Tara J. Palmatier

PS Love you advice column, Amy!