Plain And Suffering
Guys pay a lot of attention to my drop-dead gorgeous friend when we go out. So, what can you do if you're her not-as-pretty sidekick? I can honestly say I'm cute, especially when I'm all dressed up. I'm told I have a great personality, but I know I lack a certain confidence many women have, and maybe that's making things harder when we're in bars and clubs.
--Pretty Unsure Of Myself
In a 37-country study on mate preferences by evolutionary psychologist David Buss, kindness was the most desired trait in a partner for both women and men, but no man runs his car off the road turning to look at a woman because she volunteers at a children's hospital.
Likewise, a bar or nightclub is no place to be trying to win an inner beauty contest. "Beautiful on the inside" isn't what gets guys sending free drinks across the room. Even if a guy comes over, that great personality of yours probably can't help but crawl under a barstool when the guy's talking to you but his eyeballs are on a walking tour of your modelicious friend. If a guy does pay attention to you -- a bright spot! -- there's a good chance he'll eventually mention his wife and kids. That's when you realize he's yet another married wingman, which makes you, yet again, the girl the guy has to get out of the way to get to the girl.
Your friend is probably one of those women for whom being beautiful involves rolling out of bed and existing. For the rest of us, being a thing of beauty isn't so much a joy forever as a job forever. We can either accept the effort involved to look our best or accept the opportunity costs of going ungroomed. We could also take a lesson from French women, who don't let not being classically pretty get in the way of feeling beautiful. The French have this concept, "jolie laide," which roughly translates to "ugly-pretty." It describes women who aren't conventionally beautiful but manage to be alluring nonetheless; for example, a woman with a big hook nose who, instead of trying to draw attention away from it, wears bright lipstick, pulls her hair back, and walks proud. Big honking beak and all, somehow, the sum total of her look is beauty, and a good bit of it comes from within.
Unfortunately, embracing ugly-pretty will take you only so far. The truth is, beauty is often relative. Take America Ferrera, who plays Ugly Betty on TV. She's actually only Hollywood-ugly, which means she looks, well, mortal when standing next to Angelina Jolie. In Greeley, Colorado, she's stunningly beautiful. Accordingly, you're a cute girl when you go out boyhunting with other merely cute girls. Sure, you "should" be able to go out with any friend you have, but in the cold light of how things work in the real world, if you're a 6, you'll probably do much better if you're flanked by a couple of 4s. This doesn't mean that you dump your friend because she's too pretty. Work on boosting your confidence, and until you do, try to do things together that won't have you competing with her for male attention -- say, dinner and movie...at your place...after you tent it for termites, board up the windows, and pull down all the blinds.
Here's what I did when this happened to me in my late 20s:
1) I stopped going to bars. Totally and completely. Verboten and off-limits. I got hobbies instead. I got into cycling, for example.
2) Yes, I dropped the gorgeous friend, in the sense that I followed Amy's advice and only did girl things with her like going to movies or lunch together. That's it.
3) I developed some male friends to hang out with because the competition thing between women thing was, for some reason at that point in my life, getting to me. Hanging out with guys was just easier and so I did that for quite a while.
4) I developed some friendships with women who were not close in age to me. They were about 10 years younger or older. That helped too.
I no longer do the "let's go out with some- girlfriends-to-a-bar thing" (although it's done here, in my city, even among women my age). I don't like the competitive situation that sets up.
I probably sound like a Queen Bee and in that narrow respect--not fostering direct competition in a male-rich (or target-rich) environment--I am. Does this make me insecure? Oh probably. Do I care? No. And I don't care because I'm really great at fostering relationships with women in other ways. At work. With students. With neighbours. With other dog-walkers. With some of the women at my mom's nursing home.
Some experiences just aren't worth repeating over and over again. Going out to a bar with a gorgeous friend and being ignored just doesn't sound like it's working for you. So why keep doing it? It's okay to say no to things that aren't leaving you feeling great.
ie at December 7, 2010 6:26 PM
When one strategy fails, it's time to implement another.
Rozita at December 7, 2010 7:16 PM
"Guys pay a lot of attention to my drop-dead gorgeous friend when we go out."
Are you sure she is that hot, and you are not?
I ask because in years past I was frequently struck by how gals would sometimes insist that their friend was "hot", while all the listening guys looked then at each other with "is she kidding?" glances amongst themselves.
Put simply, gals would often try and tell guys that a not-hot gal was hot.
I assumed the gals who did that were simply fishing for compliments for themselves, and I did not really believe the gals believed what they said. But I have also heard enough seemingly sincere statements along those lines to make me wonder if gals really have a good sense of what men find attractive in women. Because sometimes gals just don't see to get that proportion is everything. That is how both a female gymnast and a female volleyball player can be hot.
They think slim is hot. Or that big boobs are hot. Etc. But what guys find hot is rarely that reductionist.
The gal in a group who often got much attention from guys, in my experience was the one with the best combination of approachability AND attractiveness. Work on both, if male attention is what you want.
Spartee at December 7, 2010 8:53 PM
what can you do if you're her not-as-pretty sidekick?...I know I lack a certain confidence many women have
You answered your own question, LW. Confidence goes a long way with guys. Emotionally healthy guys, anyway. You're not going to get anywhere with quality guys by projecting the "I know I'm not as pretty as my friend, but I'd really appreciate it if you'd do me the favor of talking to me for a minute so I don't look like a total loser" attitude. Likewise, you shouldn't project the "I'm doing you a favor by allowing you to be in my presence" attitude, either. This is where many a confidence-lacking woman goes wrong. Go with Amy and Spartee's advice: fix yourself up and walk proud, and do project the "I'm not going to throw myself off a balcony if you don't come over here, but I can promise you won't regret it if you do" attitude.
NumberSix at December 7, 2010 9:37 PM
Confidence goes a long way with guys
This is a money quote. Most of the guys I know would be thrilled to find a cute girl with confidence and personality.
I know many sixes and sevens who spend hours trying to be tens but haven't picked up a book in years. Not only are they not tens they are boring. Rather then pursuing friendships with women who have a good sense of humor (which they can actually learn from) they spend their time with other petty women who are also in the pursuit of tenness.
As an 8ish, 9ish guy myself I'd much rather spend time with a cute, funny, vivacious 6 than a snotty, self centered 10. The problem for the 6 is that she isn't the first to get the attention, however she can get it if when the opportunitty comes she has good eye contact (confidence), a smile and something interesting to say.
Dale at December 8, 2010 2:09 AM
I think developing confidence is probably easier to do if you're not trying to do it in the bar or clubbing scene. Just my opinion. There's an obvious rating system that exists in these places and it's pretty brutal. And most of it, it seesm to me, is based on artifice: streaked or dyed blonde hair (big in my day), push-up bras, fake eyelashes (now it's hair extensions), not-so-modest clothing, etc. I think women with a more delicate kind of beauty just do don't well in that context.
I did notice that once I started turning to healthier activities, men found me more interesting than my still bar-hopping friends. My impression is that they found me more wholesome, which is another quality, like beauty, that can be quite potent. But then you have to be around men who appreciate it.
ie at December 8, 2010 2:42 AM
Most of the guys I know would be thrilled to find a cute girl with confidence and personality.
So, where are these guys? :P
Thag Jones at December 8, 2010 5:53 AM
IMHO the single biggest thing you can do to get attention from the opposite sex is be happy yourself.
I was never a particularly good-looking guy, and generally had trouble getting dates. When I got serious with the woman who would become my wife I found women were coming out of the woodwork. One woman I knew who'd turned me down for a date (just a plain-old-drinks/dinner date) some months before let me know, in no uncertain terms, that she'd like to find my shoes under her bed the next morning. Why the sudden embarrassment of riches? I was happy and it showed.
If LW wants men to approach her, she should look like she's happy, like she's having a good time, and for God's sake SMILE. That, more than raw looks, is probably what her friend is doing right. People want to be around happy people, and happy people are attractive.
Regarding confidence, I had a female friend years ago who was not merely plain-but-cute-when-she-dressed-up, she was downright ugly. She was nearly morbidly obese (seriously, she could hold a pencil in the rolls of fat on her thighs), didn't dress all that great, her hair looked like a bird's nest, the whole catastrophe. She never lacked for male companionship because she was confident, she believed she was hot, and guys responded.
Mark D at December 8, 2010 6:07 AM
Yes, get interests, find your style - that's part of being a 'jolie laide' - looking for a style - something arresting that gives you panache.
Don't hang out in situations that sap your confidence. Get guy friends to do an inventory of what makes your cute and interesting.
AntoniaB at December 8, 2010 6:09 AM
Speaking for only myself and as a pretty nice guy ... I'll admit to being a bit of a narcissist. I'm guessing I may be pretty typical when it comes to the need to have my ego and my well hidden narcissist stroked.
If a so called "six" makes confident eye contact in a way that shows that she is interested, in whatever environment, she has instantly rocketed up the charts to at least a nine.
I'll also echo some of the other posters here and say that you need to have your own interests, hobbies, and all of that. Mark D is right on the money. A happy, independent, and confident woman makes up for a whole lot of cosmetic shortcomings.
Mark D is also 100% correct in that you need to smile and exude happiness. Make eye contact while you're at it. And for God's sake, don't have a look on your face that you're better than anyone who might approach you.
I guarantee that, if you do these things, every guy on the planet will walk right past your "hot" girlfriend and take a run at you.
WhistleDick at December 8, 2010 6:44 AM
Amy gave good advice-Stay out of the bars and ie in post #1 had some good advice get involved in some hoobbies.
David M. at December 8, 2010 7:25 AM
I suspect that it's the environment more so than her friend, or her own appearance. Being with a hot girl at a club is actually going to discourage many guys, because they'll be intimidated by her, or the guys that are around her. There's a sort of pecking order that's enforced. So even though they're in a club full of men, they're only meeting the ones who are willing to compete for her friends attention. This is probably why she feels that this is going to happen whenever her friend is around.
But her friend could probably be an asset in other situations, where the environment isn't so competitive and more casual.
Jake at December 8, 2010 7:58 AM
I used to go out a lot with a group of girls who were incredibly gorgeous ex-homecoming queen, pageant-winner types. It never really bothered me because I felt like I got a lot of perks out of the situation: free drinks, VIP access, and meeting interesting people (including guys). I think that LW would do well to focus on the positives of the situation: her hot friend probably acts like a magnet to draw in guys, maybe one or two of them monopolize Hot Friend's attention, and LW can have her pick of the rest. In fact, I'm willing to bet that LW meets more guys when she's out with HF than she would alone.
I think it's also worth examining what makes HF so hot and seeing if you can emulate it. If you admire her style, her workout plan, her makeup routine just ask her if she can help you achieve the same-that's what friends are for. I'm not saying to become a clone of your friend Single White Female style, just see if she can give you some help or inspiration to become a hotter version of yourself.
Also, I think it would help to go out in a larger group, even if it's just one other person. The contrast between you and your friend won't be as noticeable when you're part of a crowd, and it gives you someone to talk to when your friend is being hit on rather than making awkward small talk with a wingman.
Whatever you do, don't dump your friend over this-or even stop going out with her! That's just mean and petty and will only make you look insecure.
Shannon at December 8, 2010 10:17 AM
"I know many sixes and sevens who spend hours trying to be tens but haven't picked up a book in years"
This.
snakeman99 at December 8, 2010 10:26 AM
I am not hot. Never have been. But back in my clubbing days I had no trouble meeting guys. If I could meet guys at a club, so can you. Be friendly. Smile. Make eye contact.
Here's a trick:
Make sure the guy is at about 1 or 2 o'clock from you (or 10 or 11). Glance at him out of the corner of your eye, until he makes eye contact, at which point you glance away, and modestly drop your gaze down so that your lashes cover your eyes.
Sounds cheesy but works!
Seriously, use your eyes as a tool.
NicoleK at December 8, 2010 12:27 PM
It is important to note also, that there are times when a man will not approach the hottest woman in a group. There may be more approachable women.
The advice seeker may in actuality be the hottest of the 2, but the other one gets more hits because she isn't as intimidating.
Bob Dobalita at December 9, 2010 7:12 AM
Bob thats exactly what my boyfriend says!!
hisprincess at December 9, 2010 11:01 AM
The LW writes very sympathetically, but I wonder if what she really means is
"The super-fine guys pay a lot of attention to my drop-dead gorgeous friend when we go out. I get a lot of attention from sixes and sevens but they don't interest me. How can I use my friend's beauty to gain access to these hot guys and great parties without constantly being overshadowed by her?"
The answer is you can't, honey. Everything has its price.
Peter at December 9, 2010 12:26 PM
Okay, so you are at the bar with your gorgeous girlfriend.
A successful pick up line: "She steals all my boyfriends from me. Every one."
Hey, maybe one of the guys will stick.
BOTU at December 10, 2010 10:07 AM
ah, how this letter takes me back! in college i was pretty - but my best friend (also pretty) was blonde and had big boobs. gee - who did the guys ask out? i was truly the girl that had to be gotten out of the way. flash forward to our 10 year reunion - 2 children later the boobs had finally come to stay with me. so did much more self confidence. 2 guys from the reunion approached us - the first to distract me - the other to hit on my friend. same old same old.. but then i realized things had finally changed: the 21 year old bartender kept sending me drinks and invited me back to his room... my daughter and i always say - what makes a guy cool or attractive is mostly attitude, talent and/or confidence. it's the same for women, too.
zelda at December 11, 2010 9:53 AM
I SEE Lost People...
It was nice to finally see validation in Print. I am reading a book (Not sure if I can post the title here without permission--will do so if given the go ahead) which addresses the overall situation most of us face in regard to our relationships to others, if not all of life. And I do not mean just intimate "sexual" relationships.
In the book Hugh Downs was given credit for proposing the idea to Barbara WaWa of self esteem coming from the acts (I call them deeds)of giving to others rather than the "giving to self/doing for self/finding self/being happy with self blah blah blah first" ideals our JUST ME generation culture holds in such high regard.
"AHMEN", and I do mean AH, Hugh and THANK YOU! According to the book, Barbara was aghast at Hughs' theory. No surprise. Fucking Twit!
For years now, I've personally found it ridiculous when I hear someone say that they are alone or are soon to be alone to "find themselves." It's a tag line for ignorant if you ask me. Have we so brainwashed and perverted our basic understandings of "How stuff works" to really believe that the way to know self is by being alone? By spending time alone? This is utterly ludicrous. Has no one the common sense any more to use basic tools like, uh let's see, if I do this and this is the outcome then.........? Look around people. How about a simple hmm How's this working for US ( not how's this working for me) FUCK how can we be so deluded to miss the basic concept of there is no way of knowing self without reflectors? We cannot know what we look like without a mirror. It's not possible.
Same holds true on a more profound level that we cannot know self without the reflection we see of self IN OTHERS...Hello!!!!!
Said another way...Come to the table offering...DUH! Relationships are about investing in others or in the relationship we have with others. All else is Narcissism. Doesn't take a degree in psychology to figure this out. Where's Will Rogers when we need him?
Chuck at December 11, 2010 3:50 PM
So, where are these guys? :P
One right here Thag :) I have a history of falling for cute and engaging over classically beautiful.
So, what can you do if you're her not-as-pretty sidekick?
LW, confidence. I had a friend used to hassle me all the time to go to nightclubs with him. He had this idea that I was the one who attracted the girls then he could chat them up. Funny thing was, he was about 20 times better than me at meeting girls (I've done ok but I never once picked up in a club). Then he would seriously get jealous if I talked to them at all thinking I was going to steal them. I got sick of that so it doesn't happen anymore. But bear in mind - he thought he was the one who was the the lesser in the relationship but projected confidence better than me, consequently did better too - for a while till his insecurity manifested, but that's another story.
Ltw at December 13, 2010 12:49 AM
Even cardboard cutouts of hot women will cause male drivers to be distracted. We really are wired that way, ladies.
We breathe, we look.
MarkD at December 14, 2010 6:05 AM
Amy Alkon is a total nitwit. I don't understand how a purported psychology magazine could feature a cover article by a shallow web-blogger such as she. Referring to women as a number between 1-10 is so passe, and this brilliant aphoristic quip of which I have read several regurgitations by the author, that a man does not turn his head to take interest in a woman because of her character or kindness, is propaganda. Lip gloss and hair-dye do not elicit interest in a woman from me, and if a sixty-year old woman with grey hair runs by in tight black pants I take a glance asa willingly as if she were twenty.
Gabriel Evans at December 14, 2010 11:49 AM
if a sixty-year old woman with grey hair runs by in tight black pants I take a glance asa willingly as if she were twenty.
Because she looks good, right? Not because she nurses sick puppies back to health, because you have no idea what she's actually like, just that you like the look of her. If lip gloss and hair dye don't do it for you, then something does. You can't possibly have much of an idea about a woman's character from across the room. Maybe your idea of what makes a woman attractive is different from other men's, but there is still something physical you latch onto because that's all you have before you actually talk to her.
NumberSix at December 14, 2010 2:20 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/12/plain-and-suffe-1.html#comment-1800018">comment from Gabriel EvansGabriel, I'm a shallow nationally syndicated columnist and author.
"that a man does not turn his head to take interest in a woman because of her character or kindness, is propaganda."
"Propaganda" supported by a vast pile of cross-cultural data.
When's the last time you chased a homely woman down the street? You can't see whether a woman works at the soup kitchen, you can only see how hot she is. If you find her physically attractive, you might get to know her better.
You seem very full of yourself vis a vis the way you write -- "regurgitations from the author."
As for "lipgloss" -- I think you're referring to a little quip I stuck at the end of my Psych Today piece -- one I used as a general idea for taking care of oneself.
You seem like a seriously angry guy who's been brainwashed by an even angrier feminist. The point of my piece was pretty simple and is well-supported by science: Men like beautiful women. The features they find beautiful are directly related to whether a woman is beautiful. Women can either try to take care of themselves or accept the opportunity costs of going ungroomed.
Finally, let's look at your opener: "Amy Alkon is a total nitwit. I don't understand how a purported psychology magazine could feature a cover article by a shallow web-blogger such as she."
Clearly, the writing by me you really need to be reading is my book: I SEE RUDE PEOPLE: One woman's battle to beat some manners into impolite society. Here's a link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071600213?ie=UTF8&tag=advicegoddess-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0071600213
It's fine to disagree with me, but you might work on the civilized debate thing.
Amy Alkon at December 14, 2010 4:15 PM
"Because she looks good, right? Not because she nurses sick puppies back to health, because you have no idea what she's actually like,..."
Six, this is an excellent point that I think women miss sometimes when they are wondering what attracts men. You could be the young Mother Teresa, or you could be the world's most shallow narcissist. But from just seeing you for the first time, we can't tell. You don't have it printed on your forehead.
Yes, as we get to know you better, all those factors come into play. But on first meeting, the only thing we have to go by is your appearance, and we have to make an initial decision based on that appearance alone. The only alternative is to hit on every woman in the room -- and who wants to feel like "any port in a storm"?
Cousin Dave at December 14, 2010 6:41 PM
But from just seeing you for the first time, we can't tell.
Cousin Dave, that's why (on a good day) it makes me laugh when women bemoan the fact that men aren't interested in their characters and that they only want to talk to hot women. I've seen this in advice columns time and again. It usually ends with the woman talking about how much better she is than the shallow, buxom babe the guy talked to instead. How is he supposed to know that? If he doesn't already know you, you have to get his attention somehow. You could try yelling across the bar that you read Le Monde and only wear socially-conscious underwear, but that's going to severely narrow your options.
NumberSix at December 14, 2010 8:12 PM
I used to go to clubs, usually where there was dancing. If I was turned down by the first girl I asked to dance, I always left. Every other girl in the club knew that I was a loser and she was second choice, no point in staying or asking them. Would LW accept being second choice?
ken in sc at December 15, 2010 6:28 PM
My best luck with guys was when I went to clubs with my head-turner girlfriend. She was tall, with long gorgeous blonde hair. By myself, guys just overlooked me.
They would come over to meet her, and somehow, I ended up with all the attention.
Jen at December 18, 2010 7:14 AM
Ugh, do you care really? To be hit on by your town's version of " the situation"? Because that is what these guys have to be like. They are the "hit and quit it" types.
Your friend may get hot but she may also be sending out flirting vibes to get that reaction that you aren't aware of. Subtle things, her clothing, eye contact, some even do a dick brush or grab.
In bars men aren't looking for a girl to get in a relationship with. Mostly they want to hook up for sex. if thats what you want then start grabbing dick and whispering " lets f**K" in their ear on the way to the bathroom.
I used to have 2 gal friends when I was young that I thought the same thing and also it seemed like all the guys I said I thought were cute my friends would be going home with. Then I clued in, I started telling those friends some creep guy was "hot" and I would watch them work on getting him. Sometimes against each other.
The less you care, go about dancing and having a good time the more you will get hit on. Those are really the girls that get hit on the most. Trust me. I am not a beauty queen but I was the type of girl and still am as an old broad that men cross a room for.
tuckerkitty at December 20, 2010 7:19 AM
It is true I am often angry, but anger is a state not a characteristic (as is, for example, buffoonery) and this state is often induced by the proliferation of exasperating viewpoints such as your own which are symptomatic of a degenerating society. Applying lip gloss is not really taking care of yourself - eating good food and taking antioxidants, getting plenty of rest and physical activity are taking care of yourself, and obviously will help your physical appearance. I was never arguing that women don't need to be beautiful, I was recognizing that you believe in certain culturally-imposed standards of beauty which I consider illusory.
"The features they find beautiful are directly related to whether a woman is beautiful."--Isn't this the algebraic principle A=A? Circular logic does not a coherent statement make.
And again, to return to the propaganda belittling the importance of a woman's character, one might approach a woman after observing her behavior -- this is obvious. A man doesn't usually approach every woman on the street he is attracted to, and only losers go to clubs. The point of being attractive is to have children and, at least in civilization, to get married. Not to "hook up" with as many guys as possible. So are any of you experts on beauty married and mothers? Because that is the scientific evidence for success.
Gabriel Evans at December 21, 2010 2:09 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2010/12/plain-and-suffe-1.html#comment-1806032">comment from Gabriel EvansGabriel, birth control is evolutionarily novel, meaning our genes are utterly unprepared for it, and we can control whether we are mothers or not.
Per Dr. Michael Eades: "a large number of researchers have given zillions of subjects huge quantities of various antioxidants without any real change in longevity."
The rest of your thinking is equally weak on facts and on logic. If you want to comment on my Psych Today piece, go find the appropriate blog item.
Men don't approach women they want on the street because it's usually an unsuccessful strategy. The Hatfield/Clark study errors (men who were strangers asking women walking across a college campus if they wanted to have sex) were just replicated in the recent redo published in EHB (Evolution and Human Behavior). Women tend to be fearful of men who are strangers who approach them on the street due to having less muscle mass, strength, etc.
It's such a waste of time to respond to your comments because they are so driven by your anger that the (non-evidence-based) ideology that you subscribe to is not replicated in my evidence- and reason-based work.
Amy Alkon at December 21, 2010 4:10 PM
I bet Gabriel comes back here to see if he's been challenged - and to satisfy himself.
Again.
Radwaste at March 26, 2011 7:57 AM
Hey, I lost my bet!
Good for Gabriel!
Radwaste at March 13, 2012 5:47 PM
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