Queasy Credit
My girlfriend and I are planning to get married this year. Her finances are in perfect order (she's frugal, with no debts, while I owe $8K on credit cards), so we agreed that she'd manage our money after marriage. But recently, something happened that has me worried. I bought a ski jacket and asked her opinion on it (color, style) and bragged that I'd gotten it for only $40. We both love deals, and she likes to have input into how I dress. But, she turned what used to be a fun moment together into a lecture about how I don't need another jacket and should be clearing my debt instead of spending. I'm afraid I'll see this escalating after marriage.
--Hammered
"Hey, honey!" you call to your girlfriend, who looks up from the sink where she's rinsing out plastic bags to reuse. "How do I look in my spiffy new jacket?" Of course, you're fishing for a compliment -- "Like a million bucks!" -- not an estimate: "Like $8,040 in debt, if you don't count fees and interest."
Unfortunately, one man's el-cheapo ski jacket is one woman's quilted nylon warning sign. The way you see it, it's not like you did a P. Diddy and splurged on some one-of-a-kind parka they had to kill 20 ostriches and a baby seal to make. The way she sees it, there's always going to be a $40 something-or-other twinkling at you from a store window, and instead of the voice of fiscal prudence, you'll hear "Visa: It's everywhere you want to be!" (Modeling cut-rate ski-wear in bankruptcy court?)
Couples who have no problem laying out their weird sex proclivities on date three go all shy schoolgirl when it comes to talking about money, or figure they'll just get married and work out the financial nitty-gritty later. Bad idea. A person's relationship with money is complex: It comes out of how they were raised, experiences they've had, and their genetics. You and your girlfriend are overdue for a frank discussion about how you each view money (Hopes! Fears! Dreams!), the origins of your thinking, and where you think your shortcomings are. Opening up about your money issues should help you have compassion for each other's fears: in her case, living pawn ticket to pawn ticket; in your case, spending a lifetime having your allowance docked by your mother.
You can probably come up with reasons for buying that ski jacket ("No sooner did I come home than she was raining on my parade!"). But, since you're about to enter a partnership, it would be a show of good faith to act more like a partner -- like your actions have bearing on the whole. You and she should probably have a joint account for mutual expenses (bills, trips, savings) and separate accounts to use as you wish. As long as you're paying off your debt and aren't racking up more, you two should have a deal that she doesn't get to lecture you or even give you an eye roll about what you buy. But, before you marry, be sure that you can accept each other's differences. For a relationship to work, you need to find "that thing your partner does" endearingly annoying as opposed to annoyingly annoying...even if you can't buy into their notion that the fundamental human needs are air, water, food, shelter and bugging the dog with the coolest new battery-operated, radio-controlled helicopter.
Granted I love to shop and am not particularly frugal, but $40 for a down ski jacket sounds like an amazing deal to me. Unless LW lives in the Sahara desert or has 20 ski jackets already, I can't see this as an unreasonable purchase. Not to mention that the amount is small enough that it shouldn't merit asking permission, ESPECIALLY when they haven't even co=mingled finances yet. It's not her money!
In the gf's defense, maybe she was just having a bad day, maybe LW really does have 20 ski jackets, maybe this behavior has been recurring to the point where she finally snapped (that would be my guess). BUT I do think this merits some serious conversation and reconsideration because I have a feeling this is only the tip of the iceberg.
Shannon at March 1, 2011 5:38 PM
"But, she turned what used to be a fun moment together into a lecture about how I don't need another jacket and should be clearing my debt instead of spending. I'm afraid I'll see this escalating after marriage."
Escalating? I sure hope so, if you expect her to put up with your ways.
You are paying 30% on that $40 you could have used to reduce your debt.
She is right. Pay off your debt. Then buy more shit you don't need.
Spartee at March 1, 2011 5:54 PM
Without knowing how much this guy makes, it's hard to know the impact of an $8K debt. It may range from a giant pain in the ass to absolutely soul crushing.
Shannon makes a good point that the girl may be seeing a pattern. He clearly has at least one other perfectly serviceable ski jacket.
Spartee and your fiance are right. You don't need a fucking ski jacket -- even if it is a "bargain".
Shopping isn't fun.
This girl is a total keeper.
Pay down as much debt as you can before marrying this beautiful woman. Talk at length about priorities. She probably wants to get out of the business of buying silly fucking jackets and get into the business of spending money towards a lifetime of genuinely valuable adventures with you. Travel, vacations, time, etc. That's the freedom that a debt free life can offer at virtually any salary.
whistleDick at March 1, 2011 7:08 PM
From the other side here. That lady's me. Not literally, but I used to rinse the plastic bags and freak out over things like the (fill in the blank) which my husband purchased because it was a good deal, or he thought he "deserved" it (so do I, but I can't afford it). Being the one to handle the money, and knowing that the jacket equalled one week's groceries, or a jumbo box of diapers, or $40 dollars more in credit card bills I can't make ever go away, would make me "snap" loudly. Explaining this never seemed to change anything. For several years, separate "splurge" accounts worked pretty well, but it's always been a difficult thing for me to, say, come home and find a new computer sitting on the desk. "NO!!!! The property tax is due next month!!!!" "It was a STEAL! Only $500!"
I would urge HER to think carefully about marrying HIM. I was a fool and married the guy. It only gets worse. Last month he tried to by a house for $30,000 without my knowing, but there's a law in our state requiring me to sign off on a property deal. !! I found out about this the evening before the closing when he found out he needed me to seal the deal. I said no, and he's sleeping in the spare bedroom (his choice). Last week, I discovered that he cashed out his IRA. Right now, it's sitting in his savings account (I handle the money :) and I'm the one who knows all the passwords to those accounts :) but I'm worried about where it's going to disappear to. That WAS part of our "cushion" for extreme financial duress, which is a real possibility these days.
I'm considering divorcing the guy, except there's still a kid involved (11), and one in college. We'd get more financial aid for college if we divorced...... but I don't want to rock the 11-year old's emotional boat. Then again, he may capsize it.
As you can tell, love isn't part of the equation anymore, except the deep love for my children and desire to protect them. Whether calling it quits is better for them or not is a complex equation I run through the computer (my brain) every day.
My advice to her: RUN!!!!!!! Advice to him: See a legitimate financial planner and get out of debt or watch her back as she runs away.
that's me at March 1, 2011 7:55 PM
How old is he? Because I can tell him (and her) from personal experience that if you're in your 20s and already that far in the hole that $8k will balloon out easily unless you learn to control yourself. She has a legitimate concern. Anyway, when are you going to be able to afford to go skiing in the near future?
LW, the difference between you and I is that I choose not to inflict my spendthrift nature on others by tying myself to them financially. No one looks after me, I don't receive welfare, I muddle along somehow. That's up to me. But in a marriage you have to think about your partner's very real concerns about getting stuck with your debt, or having to cover household expenses because you can't afford it.
Ltw at March 1, 2011 8:24 PM
If you $8000 in debt, you are living beyond your means. You should have 6 months income put aside for emergencies.
I'd say say if your too immature to manage your urges and impulses your to too immature to get married.
So no you don't need the jacket unless you are freezing to death (I'm sure your closet is packed full of stuff that at the time was an amazing deal that you couldn't walk away from, stuff you now hardly every wear), and no you don't need $5 Starbucks coffees or any of that other non essential crap.
And I would have to second the last statement "My advice to her: RUN!!!!!!! Advice to him: See a legitimate financial planner and get out of debt or watch her back as she runs away."
Brian at March 1, 2011 8:25 PM
"But, she turned what used to be a fun moment together into a lecture about how I don't need another jacket."
Sounds like this guy has surpised her with too many "fun moments" of spending money he doesn't have.
Jay at March 1, 2011 8:43 PM
This sounds like my ex-husband. He wanted a new car to replace the perfectly fine 5-year-old car we had. I said he could do it when he paid off his student loan. So he raided our savings account to pay off the loan, then bought the car, three months after finding a new job following a year-long stint on unemployment.
This guy needs to get his head out of his ass and trust that his GF has a better handle on money than he does.
MonicaP at March 1, 2011 9:00 PM
This guy is very immature and his fiance should RUN! Once she ties the knot with him she will be equally liable for any and ALL bills this guy continues to pile up. He's an anchor waiting to pull her down and she needs to cut him loose NOW.
Jan at March 2, 2011 4:10 AM
"I bought a ski jacket and ... bragged that I'd gotten it for only $40"
Groan. $8K in credit card debt and you buy a ski jacket. My suggestion: The BEST thing you can do for yourself is swallow your pride, and actually listen to her lectures and advice, watch how she manages money, and LEARN.
You aren't "hammered", you're lucky but just don't realize it. Agree with whistleDick, she's a keeper. You have an opportunity here that you're not seeing. Managing money is a set of skills and habits that anyone can learn. These skills will pay off immeasurably over your lifetime in numerous ways, from lower stress to greater financial wealth.
When you spend communal money in a marriage on stuff you don't need, you actually effectively make your wife work harder to help pay for the debt charges on that stuff. She does have a right to be upset. You should be starting to save for things like your retirement or putting your kids through college. Are you planning to let her pay for those things while you splurge?
If you feel you must splurge on unnecessary stuff, what I suggest, for the sake of your relationship, is that you talk with her, and come up with a budget plan, in which you look at where your money's going each month, then allocate a certain portion of your salary to chipping away at your debt (paying slightly more than the minimum required each month, which saves you big-time), and after that expense, allocate a certain fixed amount of what's left to "luxury expenses" (like ski jackets or video games). Then, crucial, you stick to that. Then you can buy ski jackets or video games from that allocated portion of your budget without her getting angry or giving you lectures, and if you go over that allotment, you get lectures. Once your debt is paid down, you actually have MORE money to spend on stuff like ski jackets, because you aren't paying debt charges.
Lobster at March 2, 2011 6:26 AM
$8K isn't all that much folks, no reason to blow a gasket over it. I'm guessing that none of you went to college and acquired student loans, or make enough to pay off that amount without it being a major burden.
But I do think that putting all of the responsibility in her hands is a recipe for problems. It's not fair to her and puts her in the role of having to manage his behavior. Why can't he just take care of his own debts?
Also I think that it's important to distinguish between 'good with money' and just neurotic. A lot of people who think that they're good with money are really just neurotic about money. They take all of the joy out of everything by fixating on the cost.
steve at March 2, 2011 6:32 AM
On the other hand, after reading "that's me"'s sad story, I'm going to suggest you break up with this woman. For her sake. Because yes, unless you fix your errant behavior, you will definitely see this "escalating" after marriage, and if you can't handle it "escalating" then rather get out now.
Lobster at March 2, 2011 6:36 AM
"$8K isn't all that much folks, no reason to blow a gasket over it"
(Bearing in mind Amy may have re-worded the letter, but I tend to notice ambiguities) - he actually doesn't say that's his only debt, only that that's how much *credit card* debt he has - my mind filled in "alone" at the end of "I owe $8K on credit cards". I have a slight suspicion he may be trying to imply that's the only debt he has, because people who dig themselves into financial holes, tend also to be coy about the actual scale of the problem. Also, it's not so much the absolute size of the debt, but the way it reveals in this case his general inability to manage money, and an inability to manage money tends to scale no matter how much you earn.
Lobster at March 2, 2011 6:42 AM
Steve, if that was $8,000 of student loan debt at 4% interest obtained to get a professional credential, yeah, the debt would be a yawner. But $8,000 of credit card debt at 30% interest when you are (I assume) just getting started in life with a new spouse is something to attack with a vengence before kids show up, mortgages are undertaken, etc.
The best way to attack that debt is with any spare money available to get rid of the debt. That $40 was spare money. Now, $40 is not $8,000, I know, but it is a start, just like not putting that cookie in your mouth is the best start for losing weight. What is his monthly carry on that $8,000, about $200? Get rid of the $8,000 and he will have another $160/month to blow on ski jackets.
Spartee at March 2, 2011 6:52 AM
An extra $50 a month shaved 5 yrs of a property loan I had.
Which at a minimum payment of $500 a month
500 x 12 x 5 = $30,000
So forty dollars can be a shit load of money when dealing with compund interest
lujlp at March 2, 2011 7:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/queasy-credit.html#comment-1864776">comment from LobsterHe didn't say he had other debt, but that he had other expenses (child support, health insurance for his kids, etc.).
Amy Alkon at March 2, 2011 7:20 AM
Yup - this is a big deal.
I don't notice that they've sat down and worked out a plan for him paying down the debt.
Also - don't open a joint account with someone who's in debt. It can bit you in the bottom.
AntoniaB at March 2, 2011 7:28 AM
Oh, groan, so he already has kids and a whole bunch of other expenses associated with them. I wouldn't even consider marrying this guy. If I was really in love with him and he was a great person in all other ways, I'd stay in the relationship but not get married or mingle our finances. Maybe in another ten or twenty years, when his kids were grown and independent and IF he had gotten his financial house in order.
Pirate Jo at March 2, 2011 7:33 AM
I'd echo what "that's me" said. I wish it had been the fiance writing in, because I think the consensus would be, "run."
Having a spouse who is careless or incompetent with money will cause you years of insomnia and age you faster than cigarrets and tanning beds.
LW, if you think she's too tight with money, don't get married. Having one person manage the family finances is fine, but not if the partner's not on the same page. And this sh*t's serious. If she has to tell you "no" constantly when you want to spend money you don't have, you're going to end up resenting each other. If she has to treat you like a child to keep you from aquiring more debt, she's going to start viewing you as a liability. Guess what that does to a couple's sex life...
Sign up for a Dave Ramsey workshop. Visit a financial planner as part of your pre-marital counseling. And stop treating yourself to "deals" when YOU are bringing a substantial debt into this marriage.
ahw at March 2, 2011 7:45 AM
"there's always going to be a $40 something-or-other twinkling at you from a store window."
Precisely. And I bet that in some portion (or a million portions) of conversation with his GF, Mister Ski-Jacket has promised to "do better" and to "buckle down" and to "be more responsible" and yadda yadda yadda.
I have had 4 relationships and not a damn one of them knew how to deal with money in the slightest—including one who made $400K a year and barely managed to pay his bills every month.
Dude, be happy that she's tight with money. That sounds like it's exactly what you need.
Razor at March 2, 2011 8:26 AM
@that's me: What a nightmare! I would be a basket case.
My BF's spending habits drive me nuts too. Splurging is something he feels he "deserves" b/c he works as hard as he does. He picks up the check at large meals with his friends, saying that they can just buy his drinks later (they never do -- and, really, nobody needs THAT many drinks). He buys "vintage" legos on Craigslist and fuels a number of expensive hobbies. He is very generous and bought a friend's kid a COMPUTER (a used one, $400, such a "STEAL") because the family couldn't afford one. He's wanted to take a big overseas trip for years now, but he can never seem to afford it because he can't say "no" when his sister/cousin/many friends invite him on weekend trips to New Orleans, Vegas, Aspen (and these all add up!) He was SHOCKED when I refused to go on the New Orleans trip with him because I'm saving up to go to a friend's destination wedding ("but, that's a whole YEAR from now!" he told me.)
Retirement? Oh, he'll "never retire" (just like his dad, who, coincidentally, also has a "if you have money, spend it on FUN" mentality).
The reason we are still happy together? Because we are NOT married. We split rent and utilities. That's it. I can enjoy his kindness, hotness and adventurous spirit without having to make his financial problems MY problems.
sofar at March 2, 2011 8:28 AM
I'm with her, with a small twist.
He's not going to be happy having to beg or ask permission for every dime he spends. They need an honest talk. We each can spend X every month. Anything over X gets discussed, first.
Some people cheat in marriage. Some people cheat with sex. Others cheat with money. It's not the money, it's the principle. What's more important, the marriage or the money?
Besides, my better half is a bookkeeper. Do you seriously think I could get anything past her? She's also generous with the allowance. I don't need a new car, mine still runs and it's paid for. I don't need more toys, I need more time to play with the ones I've got. Oh, and to fool around with the bookkeeper.
MarkD at March 2, 2011 9:24 AM
My husband and I are brutally honest about our finances. We became very familiar with each others spending habits early in the relationship and we started talking about finances when we considered getting married.
Now, every month we sit down with a calculator, our bills, and bank statements and do the math and work on our budget. It sucks. I hate it. But we do it because we have to. I know he has credit card debt, he knows I have student loan debt and we know how much each persons debt and interest is. We have even seen each others credit reports. We have one joint account and also our own separate accounts. The joint account goes towards the big jont bills (Mortgage, car loan, car insurance, etc...). We are each responsible for some of the other smaller house bills (I have cable, electric, and water; he has ADT, the HOA, home owners insurance) and we are resposnible for paying off our own debt. We hold each other accountable for those bills. We also hold eachother accountable to paying off debt. While we share access to the joint account, he does not have access to my personal checking and savings account, I do not have access to his. We do bring our personal bank statements to the table every month though so we know what the other has in their accounts.
While, we are both on the same page financially but we also respect that we are both adults. We hold eachother accountable to our financial responsibilities, but we don't babysit each others wallets. If we had to do that, we probably shouldn't have gotten married in the first place.
Sabrina at March 2, 2011 9:26 AM
I had the experience of being married to a spendthrift. She drained my bank accounts, and as we were in the process of breaking up, she forged my signature on a bunch of credit card applications and stuck me with about $10K in total debt, $6000 of which was credit cards. (The rest was a line of credit, and income tax that she hadn't paid.)
Mind you, money and I had had a bad relationship up to that point, so I had a panic reaction at first. I had to get a grip on myself, so I decided that I'd see what my monthly expenses were, and then pick a set amount each month that would go towards the debt. After all the bills came and I did the math, I figured that I could start retiring the debt at a rate of $800 per month. This was in January, and the first two months I had to set aside the money to pay my ex's back taxes. I kept that money in a savings account until April 15, so that made me a few bucks. I opened a line of credit at the credit union, and it was enough to pay about half of the credit card debt; the gain there was that the line of credit's rate was 14% vs. the credit cards at 25+. So that saved me a few bucks in interest.
After that, it was just nose to the grindstone. I worked hard that year to retire the debt, putting aside first the $800 per month and then increasing it to $1000 as I retired the credit cards and didn't have to pay as much interest. I also cashed in some vacation days at work that I wasn't going to use that year. I eliminated nearly all discretionary spending. I didn't eat out, go to movies/concerts/ball games, date (wasn't interested anyway), or do much shopping. I learned how to do a few things, like sew loose buttons back on shirts so that I didn't have to buy new ones. I learned to cook a little bit, and when my car needed a new battery I replaced it myself rather than taking it to a shop. When I did shop, I kept mostly to places like K-Mart and Hill's. The one thing that I did do was that I allocated myself $100 per month in mad money, and gave myself permission to spend it on whatever the hell I wanted so long as I didn't go over the allocation. That helped ease the on-a-leash feeling.
So LW, that's what you have to do. Make some kind of plan for how you are going to retire the debt. Maybe you can only afford to retire $400 or even $200 a month, but that's still moving the right direction. Make a plan for when you want to have the debt retired by, and then get to it. The important thing is that you have to get started. You have to do this not for your fiancee, but for yourself. You have to get control over your own life, lest someone else be tempted to do it for you. (And as you've found out, that is not very enjoyable.) Learn some new skills so you don't have to spend as much, and look for less expensive ways to do the things you have to do. And do allocate yourself a bit of mad money, even if it's only $20 a month. Once you see the bills and the balances starting to do down, you'll start feeling a lot more positive about the whole thing.
Cousin Dave at March 2, 2011 10:10 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/queasy-credit.html#comment-1865506">comment from Cousin DaveA woman who loves you will want to save your money, even when you're spending it on her. Every dollar you have is a dollar you had to spend away from her, working. A woman who cares about you respects that, and respects your money.
Amy Alkon at March 2, 2011 10:16 AM
Retirement? Oh, he'll "never retire" (just like his dad, who, coincidentally, also has a "if you have money, spend it on FUN" mentality).
This is SORT OF like my attitude. But I didn't allow myself the luxury of this attitude until I was 100% debt-free (including no mortgage), had an (admittedly rather small) nest egg started for my old age, and had a comfortable cushion in short-term savings/cash. All of this took me until I was 40, and I got there by being extremely frugal and disciplined - I even spent quite a few years during my 20's working two jobs.
But now is a different story. Since I switched to making a living doing temporary contract work, I find that I'd much rather save money for taking this summer off than scrimp and save for when I'm old. My goal is to enjoy my life while it's happening, not save a big bucket of money to pay for nursing home care. Am I going to enjoy a cruise more now, or when I'm 80? The key is to not use DEBT to pay for the cruise.
I also have a healthy skepticism about how much my accumulated dollars will buy when I'm that age. Current events are something to pay attention to. If we are going to see so much currency devaluation that I have to work until I'm 75 anyway, then I might as well spend some money now while it's still worth something.
So I guess what I'm saying is that I take a position somewhere in the middle. I'm conservative enough that I refuse to carry debt, and I like to keep my expenses low. But I'm also relaxed enough to know that life is what is happening right now, and that I can't take my money with me when I die. I tend to value free time more than I value material things I can buy.
Of these two fears:
1) Working hard and missing out on a lot of the things you wanted to do in life because you were scrimping, saving, and being frugal, and then dying (or experiencing bad health) before you get to spend your money on those things?
2) Dying broke in your old age?
#1 scares me the most.
Pirate Jo at March 2, 2011 10:30 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/queasy-credit.html#comment-1865560">comment from Pirate JoI can't imagine retiring, but I sure hope writing starts to pay better soon! A bunch of professions had the bottom drop out of them recently -- mine isn't the only one. Luckily, I don't live very high or need to buy new things when old things work.
Amy Alkon at March 2, 2011 10:38 AM
Amy, at least you don't have to carry bags of cement for a living. You enjoy writing and can do it for as long as you can sit at a desk. If anything, you'll just keep getting better and better at it.
My dad was a carpenter and did work that was pretty heavy and physical sometimes. By the time he got to his 60s, he was starting to experience quite a few aches and pains.
People in those situations who don't save any money should probably think about switching careers at some point.
Pirate Jo at March 2, 2011 11:40 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/queasy-credit.html#comment-1865763">comment from Pirate JoActually, I do find that I get better better, which is exciting. And yet, I manage to have low self-esteem every week about my work as I'm working on it! (Keeps me from being a hack, always worrying that it's not clear/good/funny/meaningful enough.)
Amy Alkon at March 2, 2011 11:53 AM
So I guess what I'm saying is that I take a position somewhere in the middle. I'm conservative enough that I refuse to carry debt, and I like to keep my expenses low. But I'm also relaxed enough to know that life is what is happening right now, and that I can't take my money with me when I die.
Very very very good point -- and an important one too.
You seem to have found a happy (and responsible) medium that I think very few people find. My concern with people like my BF's parents is that they have saved NOTHING and have no long-term care plan. They fully expect to move in with one of their children and be fully supported by them if my BF's dad outlives his ability to work (and with his health problems, that seems likely).
I would say your No. 2 fear is the lesser of two evils -- as long as it doesn't drag anyone else down. Another reason to be child-free. :)
sofar at March 2, 2011 12:22 PM
Sofar, I figure if I am broke when I'm old, maybe the eldercare nannies will leave me alone to die in peace. :-)
Pirate Jo at March 2, 2011 12:48 PM
There's also the basic fact that a ski jacket probably means ski trips. Not necessarily--he could just live somewhere cold, but . . . skiing is expensive. I gave up snowboarding, which I love, when my husband went back to grad school because spending a minimum of $50 and probably a lot more (gas to get up to the mountains, lift ticket, etc.) just wasn't sensible. Just throwing that out there.
anathema at March 2, 2011 1:26 PM
@anathema: true! That's a good way of looking at it. His $40 inevitably means hundreds more being spent. It's like my friend who is perpetually broke and then adopted a rabbit because it was "only" 30 bucks from a rescue. Rabbits need food and a cage and, occasionally, vet care.
sofar at March 2, 2011 3:23 PM
If the letter writer is still reading, I wanted to say one more quick thing.
Cousin Dave made a great point about allocating yourself some mad money.
All this talk of belt tightening and knocking out debt gets people thinking that they'll have to live like a Tibetan monk for years if it's ever going to work.
When doing your budget, figure in entertainment. You'll be spending a lot of time thinking about wants versus needs and, hopefully, wind up with only needs in that budget. However, you should realize that entertainment really is a need. Without some degree of entertainment money figured into your budget, you'll soon get fed up and derail the whole process by falling off the wagon.
By the way, a ski jacket is not entertainment, it's just some material thing -- some object that takes up space in your house.
A memorable afternoon out with your girl is entertainment. For example, take her someplace cheap and fun like bowling, ice skating, some shit like that where you can giggle together. Then, on your way home, stop by the video store and rent a nice light comedy for the evening. Cook her something simple for dinner and enjoy the movie together. Then, bang the shit out of her.
See there? That sort of day costs around the same price as your ski jacket. Only now, rather then a sour fight, you've made a nice memory with the girl you love and you have a glaze on your dick. Beats the shit out of some piece of clothing hanging in your closet next to all the others. Now that's a bargain!
Good luck, buddy. I hope that the overwhelming number of one-sided answers on here serve to convince you to change your ways. It may sound like we're all lecturing you. I hope you aren't taking it that way and that you'll use all this advice to become truly happy and free from all the stress that money problems cause.
whistleDick at March 2, 2011 4:06 PM
Boy, if she complains about a stupid $40 jacket, what will say about some $200 hookers? I don't see a future here.
BOTU at March 2, 2011 4:23 PM
Doesn't anyone here have a mortgage?
I think that how the debt was acquired is significant. If it's $8K for clothing and toys, that's one thing. But $8K towards things that are assets (e.g. work tools, home repairs etc..) is another. For instance, I'd held about $40K in debt at one point for business related expenses. People assured me that I was insane and may as well shoot myself because my life was over and yada yada yada. Two years later I've paid off the debt and make a decent income from that investment. An excessive fear of debt can be crippling, because it makes people solely dependent on income and personal savings. Which isn't to say that you should be profligate, but if you want to start a business or work for yourself, you're going to need to become comfortable managing credit.
steve at March 2, 2011 4:52 PM
@sofar: I'm getting there!
@Spartee: I agree that the type of debt makes a difference.
@Steve: Actually I had $14,000 in student loans (for a bachelors and masters) and a $4000 car loan which was part of the desperation, hence reusing plastic bags, making one chicken feed four people for five meals, etc. We also have a mortgage we can afford and are paying off. Yes, there are good reasons to have debt. An affordable mortgage for secure housing, prudent student loans, sensible business loans with a business plan and the discipline to pay it off. LW is talking about credit card debt, at 20+% interest. Different kettle of fish. And are you alone, or married? If it's just you, you can take more risks, because you're the only one who will get hurt if it goes wrong.
LW: what really helped me (besides being desperately poor as a kid and learning how my mom fed all of us for next to nothing) was reading "Your Money or Your Life". Think of everything you buy in terms of how many hours of work it takes to pay for it. How many hours did you (or your fiance?!?) have to work to make that $40? It would take me about 2.5 hours of work PLUS more time to pay the interest on the credit card debt I didn't use it to pay off. Would it be worth it to me? No, I already have a coat. It's obviously not worth it to your fiance. Is a new ski jacket worth the time you spent to earn it?
I have a friend who has been through bankruptcy twice and still doesn't get it. She keeps talking about how they feel they "deserve" this or that. My response? I deserve a brand new, expanded kitchen with a professional six-burner stove and double wall ovens for all the cooking I do at home, but I can't AFFORD it. "Deserving" has nothing to do with it.
Second cause of their bankruptcy: False economy (it doesn't matter if it's a good price, if you don't need it and can't afford it.) "$12 for a dozen Pfaltzgraff mugs! $12!! I mean, my mugs all have little cracks on the bottom, so I think I DESERVE new mugs.... OH, and they had a Pfaltzgraff dutch oven for only $15! That's such a good deal! I'll give my old one to the rummage sale." "Sam just traded in his blah blah car for a Mercedes because he has to drive a nice car so his clients will think he's successful." "John got two more cavities and we have to pay $500 for a root canal and fillings....I don't know HOW we're going to pay for it! We can't even afford to go to the dentist unless there's a problem" All in the same phone call. You see, I hope, the problem.
NO! Lived in desperation for YEARS. Don't want to ever go back there. Warm, roof over head, food on the table, healthy, safe. The five most important uses of money (plus education, which you can almost get for free in the US if you work hard enough.) Anything else is negotiable (like whether your mugs are mismatched from Salvation Army or Pfaltzgraff), or whether you need ANOTHER coat. Now, if the kids' jeans are swinging around their ankles and they're too old for you to get away with putting a "trim" around the bottoms, that's not negotiable, but whether they're $8 from Wal-Mart or $50 (on SALE!) from the latest hot brand, that's negotiable.
that's me at March 2, 2011 6:22 PM
I have a friend who has been through bankruptcy twice and still doesn't get it. She keeps talking about how they feel they "deserve" this or that.
Perversely, that's like saying nice people "deserve" to pay 30% more for everything because of the credit card interest. Makes no sense. You hit it, that's me, "deserving" doesn't have a thing to do with it. This isn't getting into heaven we're talking about here. I appreciate your pragmatism.
And my mom used to put a "trim" around the bottom of my jeans! But a lot of the other kids' moms were doing it, too, so it wasn't a big deal. The frugality must have rubbed off - I still have the original mugs I bought on clearance from Wal-Mart, back when I was in college 20 years ago.
Pirate Jo at March 2, 2011 8:10 PM
Personally, I don't have credit card debt because I use a debit card. I'm too afraid of getting sucked in and overspending. We have a mortgage, that's plenty enough debt for us.
I believe that debt should only be taken on things that are investments... real estate, education, business loans, etc. Unless you are starving or something and really need food or other necessities. In which case, see if your social network or the local shelter can help you out first.
I just don't buy a lot of new clothes and things like that. Even on sale.
Now having said that, if someone is in debt, I see no reason they shouldn't work out a plan where they pay X amount per month to pay down the debt, but still have Y amount left over to spend on other things (assuming they first put Z amount into savings). If he's budgeted, say, $200 a month towards his debt, and has $100 leftover to spend every month, then he could buy a $40 ski jacket one month and go skiing the next month.
It would be hypocritical of me not to say that, since its not like we put every cent we have towards our mortgage. (Though of course if we did we'd be penalized, there's an early pay-off fine). We put a certain amount towards the mortgage, and have a certain amount for necessities, and a certain amount for entertainment, and a certain amount for savings.
So it all comes down to whether or not he budgeted for the jacket or not.
NicoleK at March 3, 2011 12:00 AM
Dude. Clear your $8K then get engaged. It's a year's delay vs. a life sentence which if you do not knock out *on your own*, you will deserve to serve.
She didn;t ring up that debt and believe me, if she sees the $40 jacket coming of your debt plan (and she's right), then she'll see the entire $8K as coming from her marriage and you will NEVER be able to repay this money.
Hear me now und believe me lay-tah.
haakondahl at March 3, 2011 12:44 AM
Razor: "including one who made $400K a year and barely managed to pay his bills every month"
Yup, that's why I say it's not about the absolute size of the debt, it's about the habits. People who can't manage money often bemoan they 'don't earn enough'. But when they do get raises, those same bad habits simply get translated to bigger expenditures - they buy a bigger house and fancier car at the very upper limits of what they can afford, and instead of e.g. ski jackets, it's things like motorbikes.
I have an employee who with her partner, their combined household income puts them in the top 10% of households, income-wise. But they are constantly fighting about money, and frequently run out before the end of the month. But I've seen their house, it's FAR bigger than they need (they could literally purchase a decent place on the money they're paying now to rent that place) and full of unnecessary luxury expenditures. Neither of them have a clue how to manage money. But they always have 'excuses' for why it was due to someone or something else beyond their control, that they ran out of money yet again.
Spartee: "it is a start, just like not putting that cookie in your mouth is the best start for losing weight"
ahw: "she's going to start viewing you as a liability. Guess what that does to a couple's sex life"
Yup, like seeing an overweight woman stuffing 'yet another cookie' into her mouth is actually a turn-off, seeing an over-indebted grown man buying yet-another-useless-trinket is also a turn-off.
whistleDick: "By the way, a ski jacket is not entertainment, it's just some material thing -- some object that takes up space in your house."
Another point with people who buy lots of pointless material junk is that soon they will tell you they simply "need" a bigger house too, because they don't have space for all the junk they bought .. and then they REALLY get into debt.
I once co-tenanted with a guy who had about $15K debt, earned a relatively decent 'above average' salary, but struggled every month to make ends meet. But he kept buying new 'stuff'. Initially our arrangement was that he was only supposed to have one room, but his 'stuff' just somehow kept expanding into the rest of the household, like the blob. Now I don't like clutter, so when the house starts feeling cluttered I instinctively find something to chuck out, or re-arrange things to make more space. But it seemed like no sooner would I open up some new space, than I would come home and find some new unnecessary piece of junk filling the space I opened. My upper kitchen shelves piled up with strange new appliances he never used. There were odd bits of pointless furniture all over the house. He complained relentlessly that he didn't earn enough, and never got anywhere servicing his debt. Eventually he moved out and rented a bigger place. I'm sure he'll forever keep "needing" bigger and bigger places.
There's a reason storage facilities charge for their services. If you have a big house full of things you don't need or use, you're actually effectively just paying for your own private storage facility. Seems like a waste to me.
Lobster at March 3, 2011 12:51 AM
I can understand the letterwriter's concern that his girlfriend will be a "killjoy" and be controlling over money in the relationship. When I was younger, I used to be like him, I was in debt and buying stuff because it was such a good deal. After struggling and worrying over money, always being broke and stressed out [and being trapped in a job that was making me miserable because of my debt], I read some books that I would like to recommend and have to say I am leaning toward agreeing with the girlfriend, because I have lived through the consequences of the letterwriter's behavior. I recommend Smart Couples finish Rich by Dave Bach and 9 Steps to Financial Freedom by Suze Orman.There has to be a middle ground where he gets to have some fun, but not be reckless, with money. And there has to be a middle ground where she can be responsible and financially secure without being a killjoy and "mommy" giving him an allowance.
Emily at March 3, 2011 4:36 AM
Doesn't anyone here have a mortgage?
I have a mortgage Steve. It's my retirement/emergency plan if you like. I knew a long time ago I wasn't good at saving, so I bought a house rather than travel round the world like lots of my friends. A mortgage payment has a certain...pressure that a financial plan doesn't have when you really want a packet of smokes. I lucked out big time and the house is worth 5 times what I paid for it. I'd hate to move because I like it here - but if anything really bad happens I have that security/equity to back me up.
Luckily, I don't live very high or need to buy new things when old things work.
Amy, on this I agree with you completely. I despair at my friends that have to get new cars every few years (mine is 14 yrs old, still going strong, love driving it), the latest phone, TV, clothes, whatever. My money disappears on addictions and social stuff rather than shopping - I'm more like sofar's bf
He picks up the check at large meals with his friends, saying that they can just buy his drinks later (they never do -- and, really, nobody needs THAT many drinks).
I know that feeling sofar, they never do. But I like doing it. As with your bf, I refuse to marry anyone for much that reason. I know what I'm like.
what will say about some $200 hookers? I don't see a future here.
Nailed part of the problem right there BOTU. I wonder how much of his $8k credit comes from that :)
Ltw at March 3, 2011 5:42 AM
Amy, you are very clear, very funny, and open to new information. That's why I'm back day after day.
And LW? Cut this good woman loose for her own good. I'm the frugal one, had one marriage to a spender/hoarder, living with another guy who made good money when I met him but has had severe trouble cutting back spending after his layoff (doing better, but still...)
The poster who said that you are heading into a mommy/child relationship is right.on.the.money. If *you're* not happy, quintillion that for your fiancee. I am now so averse to taking care of a man in any capacity (down to helping him find his keys) that next time around I'm going the Amy/Gregg route and maintaining seperate residences.
MissFancy at March 3, 2011 8:33 AM
Aw, thanks!
Amy Alkon at March 3, 2011 8:44 AM
I lucked out big time and the house is worth 5 times what I paid for it.
Not when you factor the true cost of the mortgage, which can accumulate to 3X the amount borrowed depending on the terms and rates applied. But I get what you're saying about forced savings. That's the only real value of residential real estate in most cases.
I have a sense that some people here are putting on a show. Breaking up marriages and dumping loved ones over $8000 is pretty extreme. But if you really think this way, then it's probably best to be honest about it, and stay single. Because you are way too fragile to withstand the ups and downs of a real relationship.
My father made our entire family miserable with this sort of behavior. He'd ruin every occasion by constantly harping on the cost. We could never take a family vacation or holiday because it was always too expensive. College was too expensive, braces, health care, safe cars, heat, electricity. This from someone who was making over a quarter of a million dollars a year for decades. Now he lives alone in a pitch black house eating discount food from dented cans. I had to pull my mother out of there because after she went blind, and developed cancer, he refused to pay for her care. She was supposed to just die in her chair so that he didn't have to spend any money on her. At least he has his millions.
steve at March 3, 2011 8:57 AM
Steve, isn't it always that way - there are always folks here and at every other advice website - advising the dump and run tactic. Good thing we're not advice columnists!
But there is a larger picture than $8k in this letter, and a gajillion responders to this thread who "get it". This guy is a spender, his gal is not. This recipe can cause a lot of problems and they're better off figuring out if they can work together before they hitch.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that if this gal marries this guy, their finances are comingled and his problems become hers. If she asked, I would strongly caution her to be very sure it's what she wants. Otherwise, if she enjoys him and wants to be with him, just forego the license.
My hub is quite a spender, but luckily he's also a good earner. Sometimes I have trouble with his constant stream of new toys, tools, etc. But I remind myself that we have no cc debt and are on track with our retirement savings, so I let it go. I still have a few of the melamine plates I bought at the flea market about 35 years ago - they had an off-center pattern so I paid $1 for six of them. You can be married to someone who doesn't think like you do as long as you have figured out how to work together when it counts. And a sense of humor doesn't hurt.
Laurie at March 3, 2011 11:35 AM
The line about turning a "fun moment" into a bummer worries me the most somehow.
NicoleK at March 3, 2011 12:36 PM
Not when you factor the true cost of the mortgage, which can accumulate to 3X the amount borrowed depending on the terms and rates applied. But I get what you're saying about forced savings. That's the only real value of residential real estate in most cases.
That's true Steve. I'm certainly not saying it's the best thing for everyone. But yes, as you say, I should phrase it more as I've forced myself to put away some of my prior income (albeit in an illiquid asset) in case I really need it one day. I don't see it as free money if that's what you were wondering. I had to sacrifice a lot to do it and continue it, especially in the early years. I doubt I could have done that by renting and investing the surplus.
Ltw at March 3, 2011 3:56 PM
Great comments on here today, and Amy's advice is spot on.
The only thing I'd add is the fact that financial troubles are one of the leading factors in the breakup of marriages.
LW, having your future wife handle the finances is basically tasking her with having to parent you, especially if you are not going to adjust your spending habits. You need to learn new behaviors, or she will tire of your BS fast. Looks like she's already tired of it, and is looking down the barrel of future financial hardship once she marries you.
NicoleK pointed out a telltale line you wrote, about the "fun moment." Between the lines this tells me you get a bit of a 'buyer's high' from shopping. Your woman didn't share your enthusiasm because she sees you have an issue you are not dealing with. What you have done is put HER in charge of dealing with it. Which she did, by lecturing you.
SO what are you complaining about, exactly?
lori m. at March 3, 2011 4:34 PM
"Because you are way too fragile to withstand the ups and downs of a real relationship.
My father made our entire family miserable"
Steve, not one member of this forum is arguing for such an extreme approach. Most advocate including setting aside even money for fun things and luxury spending even as he pays off his debt. So you are just projecting your own particular experience onto everyone else, and viewing the comments here through that distorted prism. But your projection is a straw-man argument. Nobody here is advocating never spending on anything. Nobody here has even remotely come close to suggesting that you should even let people die of cancer because you shouldn't spend money on cancer treatment. That's ridiculous. You're arguing against a fictitious straw-man.
Lobster at March 3, 2011 11:19 PM
And by the way, Steve, it was the letter writer himself who felt so distressed by this already in his relationship that he felt the need to write to an advice columnist, worrying that this will 'escalate after marriage' ... if the letter writer already senses this may break up his marriage, it's hardly that extreme for us to agree that yes, it might.
Lobster at March 3, 2011 11:24 PM
steve: "College was too expensive"
Heck, I even advised specifically he should be thinking about saving *for his kids college fund*.
Lobster at March 3, 2011 11:25 PM
I don't see it as free money if that's what you were wondering.
The phrase 'forced savings' is one that's used by economists. I'm not trying to characterize your situation, sorry if I came off as though I was judging you. Certain investments are structured to compel you to save money via installments. Some types of insurance can be described in the same way.
Look folks, the reason that I'm pushing back on the trend in this thread is that there are people here who want to break up this guys relationship and ruin his life over $8000. That's crazy. It would be one thing if he were spending them into bankruptcy, or spending the kids' college fund, or something. But it's not enough money, or information, to warrant such a severe reaction.
The one point that I do agree with is that his passive attitude is more likely to present a problem going forward. I'd be embarrassed to hand off my financial problems to my girlfriend, much less whine that she's doing what I'd asked her to. And LW, yes her behavior is going to escalate. You're asking her to escalate her behavior.
steve at March 4, 2011 6:13 AM
I'm with Steve. Most of the posters are right in their advice to the LW but there is also a tendency here to equate no spending with virtue. Well, frugality is a virtue but miserliness is a misery and hurts others around you. I too have seen it in my life.
This partnership is not doomed just because the guy bought a $40 jacket, but they have to take Amy's advice and discuss this frankly up front. The LW agreed to let his fiancee handle the finances. It's clear that will only work if they sit down and talk about what that really entails. They may also need to make room in the budget for her to hand him some "fun money," even if it's a token amount while the debt is being paid down.
Astra at March 4, 2011 8:19 AM
Steve,
Where do you get the idea that we frugalistas are averse to fun or living well?
Look--I'm a work to live, not live to work type of gal. I prefer jobs that I can leave at work and not think about at home. That means lower paying jobs for the most part.
So I am *wise* about spending my money. Used book stores. Outlet stores for clothing. Good furniture that I really like so I can live with it for years (haven't bought new furniture in 10 years now.) Food--now that's super important to me, as I am not only a foodie but see good, whole food as the best health insurance plan on the planet, so I do eat well. Last Sunday for instance, we had huge glorious rib eye steaks, marinated in Yoshida's and tamari and grilled on the Foreman. And I could afford it because, again, I am *wise* with my money.
Were I to have your father's money Steve, I would buy a fairly modest house (one that I loved, however) free and clear. That leaves me only upkeep, property taxes, utilities and day to day living to worry about, and nobody could take my house from me unless I failed to pay property taxes or trashed up the yard something fierce. My day to day living wouldn't change much. I'd buy some more good, classic clothing, slowly furnish the house with antiques, and take a vacation every once in a while. See? Wise spending.
To play armchair psychologist with your father, I'm guessing he grew up poor, but never learned to be poor the classy, genteel way, so was never able to learn to be wealthy. Now he's passed wierd ideas about frugality on to you.
I'm reminded of an episode of "Dead Like Me" where the reaper played by Jasmine Guy grouses about people who call her anal retentive just because she thinks pencils and pens should all go in the same drawer next to each other. (Hint--that's normal.) You, Steve (and Astra), are calling people with historically normal spending and living habits "miserly." Really? Miserly?
MissFancy at March 4, 2011 9:08 AM
On the contrary, I've seen couples where one has changed the other from a spendthrift to a saver and things have worked out fine. Don't ever let a spender marry another spender though, that's a disaster.
stu at March 4, 2011 2:24 PM
MissFancy,
You've hit on something there. I cook at home, wait for movies to come out on DVD and borrow them from the library...use interlibrary loan ($1) to read books my library doesn't have, don't get my nails done etc.... On the other hand...on a decidedly lower middle class public employee salary, by being frugal in these ways, I was able to send our girls to private school for a couple of years, go on two tours with my daughter's choir (Europe and China), buy my daughter a very nice keyboard for her future in music, pay for voice lessons, and, best of all, stay home for them...I'm investing all that money I save (except for what my husband throws away!) in my kids and in our house/property. Seeing them growing up healthy, well educated, secure, knowing who they are, knowing how to take care of themselves and their money....that's worth every plastic bag I rinsed and reused, every meal I cooked at home, the old cars and the Salvation Army clothes, and every cloth diaper I washed.
So, there's another big picture view of why it's important to THINK carefully about how you choose to spend the money that comes into your life.
that's me at March 4, 2011 6:23 PM
Steve,
I know you don't want people to be miserly and end up eating dented-can-discount foods in a dark empty hovel in old age because they're too miserly to spend on essentials and luxuries. But, dude, you definitely don't want people to end up that way in their 70's and 80's because they spent all their money and ruined their credit buying crap on credit cards in their 20's and 30's, tried to rush around fixing it in their 40's and 50's and suffered a debilitating heart attack or stroke from the sudden oh-my-gosh-I'm-broke panic in their 60's.
My mom is having an early version of what I just described...and she still has a teenager at home. When she got together with my dad and had me (they didn't last), she had a similar amount of credit card debt, but instead of buckling down and addressing it like LW's girlfriend recommends, including things like $40 "conquest" purchases, it just grew and grew until my sister was born when mom was 42 (she *deserved* fertility treatments and another baby, you know) and she rushed around like a crazy person trying to get her shit in gear til she got sick (breast cancer, and then heart problems) and now she's only staying out of the dark hovel and dented cans because of 1.)government assistance because of my sister
2.)my brother and I won't let her or our sister get that bad as long as we can help it.
But it's not easy. When Mom first got cancer, she had no insurance and couldn't afford a repair on her house, and neither my brother nor I could outright pay for the repair and/or her medical care, so she and my sister had to move in with me and my four kids. If she had to pick now between having all the little crap "it's such a steal!" purchases she put on credit cards over the years or avoiding that time of adding her very ill self, and her mouthy tween to a house with two preschoolers, a toddler, an infant and very little space or quiet, I think she'd pick the latter. I imagine LW's girlfriend is thinking ahead to such a situation, or maybe she's seen one first hand.
Jenny Had A Chance at March 5, 2011 4:07 AM
'That's me',
I want to take a minute to applaud you for having your priorities straight when it comes to your children. My parents invested heavily in piano lessons for me and I get a great deal of joy out of it as an adult. Believe me, your kids will appreciate it as they get older. My mother also stayed home with me and my brother. That has a lot to do with how happy and well adjusted we both are today.
My ex-wife also stayed home with our children and she sacrificed a really good career to do it. I can't tell you how much I love and appreciate her for that. Our children are doing really well and it's largely because of that sacrifice. Women like you, my mother, and my children's mother are, unfortunately, becoming more and more rare.
whistleDick at March 5, 2011 9:07 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/03/queasy-credit.html#comment-1882896">comment from whistleDickI have great respect for stay-at-home parents -- who aren't just women. Glenn Sacks, now the head of Fathers & Families, stayed home with his daughter from the time she was 3 to 7.
Amy Alkon at March 5, 2011 9:17 AM
"So, there's another big picture view of why it's important to THINK carefully about how you choose to spend the money that comes into your life"
That's the thing, it's not about 'not spending', it's about deciding what you're going to spend on - $40 ski jackets and credit card debt, or being able to give your children an education, and be able to survive your retirement.
And the bottom line is, if you have not sat down and studied your monthly budget and literally "done the math" to see where the money is going, and how much you can afford to spend on luxuries while still meeting your long-term goals - then you ARE toast. And it's clear that LW has NOT "done the math".
It also sounds like his girlfriend has - so if she thinks he can't afford it, it is fair to assume that she is more likely than not, correct, and thus Steve wrong, since LW is basing the purchasing affordability decision on a random uninformed guess, while she is basing her view on actual budget management.
"My ex-wife also stayed home with our children and she sacrificed a really good career to do it"
My wife actually wants to be a stay-at-home mom, one of the reasons I married her. It will be harder for us financially, but I think we can make it work.
Lobster at March 6, 2011 3:38 AM
and thus Steve wrong, since LW is basing the purchasing affordability decision on a random uninformed guess, while she is basing her view on actual budget management.
Steve wrong about what?
You're making the mistake that I'm pointing out. Being cheap = good, spending money = bad. It's an ascetic puritan thing. You have not reason to believe that the LW is making a 'random uninformed guess', that's just how you see people who spend money. You think that they're morally weak.
I bet that you're one of those people who save their urine in bottles, just in case.
steve at March 6, 2011 9:21 AM
I watched the movie 'In Debt We Trust' last night but couldn't make it all the way through. It was too annoying to listen to a bunch of dummies blame the credit card companies for their problems.
One couple really stood out. In the beginning they both had jobs and $15,000 in the bank. Then they had two kids and she quit her job. They still made it work on just his salary for a year and didn't incur debt, but over the next four years their fiscal discipline must have really crumbled, because they racked up tens of thousands of dollars in debt.
The husband said he never approved of using credit cards in the first place, and his approach had always been to save up for things before buying them. The wife was the one in charge of managing the household finances, so he clearly blamed her for the huge debt accumulation. Then she turned the tables and said she had come from a solid middle class family and was "accustomed to a certain income." So she blamed him for not making enough money. In the end, they both decided to blame the credit card companies.
So what would they have done if the credit card companies hadn't loaned them all that money? Bitched and moaned that the credit card companies wouldn't loan them the money! They both made me sick. If you are going to have two kids and drop from two incomes down to one, you have to plan accordingly and stick to a budget. They certainly had many, many other options besides incurring a huge pile of debt. She could have gone back to work, they could have had only one (or no) children, or said 'no' to spending once in a while. After all, they did pull it off for an entire year. Or, if they decided they wanted two kids, for her to stay home, and to have a "solid middle class" lifestyle, then just accept that you're going to go into debt and shut up about it already. No amount of complaining is going to make two plus two equal five. But to watch them sitting there pointing fingers at each other and everyone else, and taking ZERO ownership of their own situation, I didn't feel the least bit sorry for them.
She would take her kids to the park every day, which she called "her office," and would sit with a couple of her other stay-at-home-mom friends, and all three of them would sit and bitch about how much debt they were in. (Not to be picky, but if you aren't getting paid to do that, you can't very well call the park your "office.") One of her friends in particular was the most vacant, dim bulb ever. She acted like these circumstances just landed on her, out of the clear blue sky, like bird droppings. Somehow she just popped out all these kids and quit her job, and somehow the debts just racked up, and somehow she magically "found herself in the situation" where she worried about money all the time. The fact that she had made choices every step of the way didn't even enter her empty little head.
All I could think was, OhferchrisSAKE, people! Grow the fuck up already. If the purpose of the movie was to make me mad at the credit card companies, it failed miserably, although I don't think the banks should ever have been bailed out. It just made me feel like people are stupid.
Pirate Jo at March 6, 2011 9:33 AM
He needs to run far and fast. He already has a mother, and he doesn't need another. If she's that condescending, superior, and controlling now, it will only escalate. He wants a mate, a partner, an equal, and a companion, not a critic or nag.
He may be a credit addict or big spender, maybe not. But based on what he says, this relationship will likely not work out well for either.
Donald Talenti at March 6, 2011 9:36 AM
Being cheap = good, spending money = bad. It's an ascetic puritan thing.
I was just thinking about this recently, wondering where this value/moral came from. Because it's true, there is a sense that frugality does not just serve a practical purpose, but people attach moral significance to it as well.
I think it's because, as we evolved in tribal communities, we didn't want to be a burden to others. We hated the people who were burdens to us, and didn't want to be one of those pains in the ass that everyone resented. When our parents got old, yes we had to take care of them, but we expected them to carry some of their own weight, too. They could clean the house, help take care of the children, and it was nice if they had some savings that they could dip into in order to contribute to the grocery bill each month. We REALLY appreciated parents who left us some wealth after they passed on. So we wanted to be the admirable people - we wanted to be seen as a net benefit to the community, and not as a useless hindrance or dead weight.
The way you did that was to live frugally and set some wealth aside. My boyfriend learned in a class that hunter gatherer societies typically spaced their kids seven years apart, because when you had a kid you cost yourself an extra pair of hands and about ten hours a week. So you waited until that kid was old enough to walk and help pick berries before having another one.
Behaviors that benefit yourself and the others in the community are reinforced to the point where they become rules to follow, and from there they become enshrined as morals and virtues. If you don't think frugality is morally superior, you don't have to think that - no one is making you. I just think it's useful to think about why something in our culture ever became a moral.
My thoughts about the matter were a little conflicted. Because now, since we live in a world where all of our currency is based on a fiat ponzi scheme, the tables have turned. If every dollar you earn immediately starts to become worth less, then you optimize your earnings by spending them immediately. In fact, incurring debt starts to make sense, because you are borrowing dollars that are worth more than the dollars you pay it back with will be worth.
If you still think it's wise to try to accumulate money in 'safe, prudent' investments that have no hope of ever keeping up with inflation, then what used to be considered virtuous, self-disciplined behavior turns into a self-defeating and useless activity.
Pirate Jo at March 6, 2011 9:46 AM
Wow! Good point, Pirate Jo!!
Just sayin' at March 7, 2011 9:55 AM
"Steve wrong about what?
You're making the mistake that I'm pointing out. Being cheap = good, spending money = bad. It's an ascetic puritan thing. You have not reason to believe that the LW is making a 'random uninformed guess', that's just how you see people who spend money. You think that they're morally weak.
I bet that you're one of those people who save their urine in bottles, just in case."
You could try actually reading my posts before you respond next time, so you wouldn't embarrass yourself by writing such meaningless and totally absurd responses.
Lobster at March 8, 2011 7:26 AM
Lobster: "Yup, that's why I say it's not about the absolute size of the debt, it's about the habits."
Exactly right. He had six children and unhappily passed on his inabilities to them, and not one could do the slightest thing on their own.
My friends laugh that I'm a tightwad, but at the same time, I'm the one who gets to go to Europe, who has the nice tv and furniture, who has a nice car that's paid off, and so on. I DO spend money, I just spend it having done a little research, and I don't ever have to worry about my cable getting shut off.
Razor at March 9, 2011 10:36 AM
I feel for the guy, but not too much.
People are not born knowing how to manage money. They may never see it in their parent's homes, either by parents not having the skills or not imparting them to the offspring.
Even if a person is mathematically adept, they may be budgetarily maladroit. Or be unaware of which financial choices should be prioritized. Pay off credit card debt? Or pay down the mortgage? Lower insurance premiums but raise the deductible? Life insurance, yes or no? Mortgage insurance? Student loans?
Asking for help, even from (or especially from) financial "experts" can be confusing, conflicting and demoralizing. And can you really trust the advice of the guy that wants to sell you something?
Check ten financial books out and you'll get an even dozen different and opposing opinions of what is critically important.
Add in the people that cannot delay gratification or make a plan for further than the next couple of paychecks (provided they have paychecks...) and it can be just a big, craptacular mess.
People (in general) do not know how to live within (below, really) their means, put aside some for savings, differentiate between wants and needs, and put aside immediate gratification for longer term security and create a workable budget that accomplishes all of them.
I recommend Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace as an outstanding self-help book for those that want to make changes but aren't really certain how or where to begin. I ignore the religious aspect of his book.
And LW, don't buy any more stuff. You don't need it. Get some financial savvy and don't dump all the responsibility on your lady friend. Both of you need to hammer out a workable budget and then stick to it. Factor in mad money for impulse buys or entertainment but don't go over. And make sure all the obligations are handled first and on time.
LauraGr at March 10, 2011 3:28 PM
Hi, fine article. I came across your website by chance but found it to be very usefull and would like to say cheers for the effort you have put into this. saved for future reference. ta
car gasket at June 21, 2011 2:32 PM
Leave a comment