Nodding Off Hill
I've been married for 10 years. I'm 43, well-educated, financially well-off, and fit. My husband and I are wonderful friends, and I love him dearly. However, for reasons he won't tell me, he decided eight years ago that he was no longer interested in sex. He says it's "too much work." He refuses to discuss it further. Also, for work reasons, we live apart. So, I have taken lovers. My husband doesn't like this, but I pay all his expenses so he can live his dream life, so he doesn't complain much. Four years ago, I moved to be with a man I got involved with, but the relationship felt more like a bridge than a destination, so I went back to my husband. Now, I love a man who wants to marry me, but I fear that ALL relationships degrade into roommate situations. I do fantasize that there's one perfect soulmate for me, and with him, I'll be able to commit. For now, I guess staying married helps me keep up appearances that I'm stable and normal while I hold on to the fairy tale that marriage is a forever relationship.
--Compartmentalizing
I must have missed that fairy tale -- the one where the couple get married and go off to live happily ever after in the house with the white picket fence and the 2.5 boyfriends.
Two years into your marriage, your husband took early retirement from sex, deeming it "too much work." Well, sure, it takes some elbow grease, but it isn't exactly picking lettuce in the hot sun for $3 an hour. Although he refuses to even discuss this any further, you keep him on staff -- as your Vice President of The Illusion of Safety and Security.
Keeping him on your payroll allows you to play both sides of the street -- married and taken and single and available. Single and available allows you your flingy fun. Still being married allows you to stay in himbo limbo -- avoiding anything more emotionally risky or stressful than retreating to your couch to wait for your mythical soulmate to fall into your life like a meteorite. The truth is, there are probably various men who are compatible with you in important ways, but there is no such thing as a soulmate -- no one perfect partner whose mere presence in your life will dry up all your problems like a big tube of Clearasil.
No matter how compatible two people are, things will never be as hot long term as they were at the start, but they're the unhottest for those who think a great relationship will just happen to them. Those are the people who wait until the urge strikes to hug or kiss their partner. Bad idea. Just do it -- several times daily. And make a pact that you'll keep having sex regularly -- even when one of you doesn't totally feel like it. Sex researcher Rosemary Basson found that arousal is "triggerable"; just start making out, and you'll get turned on and get into it. Ultimately, you have to fill a marriage with loving and sexual acts, and love and sex should continue -- assuming you're with somebody whose idea of sex in marriage isn't sending his spouse out to bars to score it off somebody else.
Spot-on advice, Amy (as always). The illusion of safety befalls many who "end up" in situations like the one mentioned above. As I peruse the letters that you post each Tuesday, it is comforting to know that you stand tall as the voice of reason each and every time.
Nice job!
Ian
Ian at May 10, 2011 7:04 PM
He says it's "too much work". He refuses to discuss it further.
Her husband isn't physically attracted to her.
Not knowing this woman, but reading the way that she describes her relationships with men, I wonder if she's prone to creating the roommate syndrome that she's so worried about.
Pedro at May 10, 2011 7:14 PM
Pedro, I think from the way LW describes it that there may be other reasons for her husband's lack of interest in sex. It likely not just that he's not physically attracted to her. He announced eight years ago that he's no longer interested in sex, and he won't tell her why? Impotence, discovered he's gay, low testosterone, seeing someone else, etc. I do think you're onto something with the thought that LW creates her own bad situations. It could be that LW's husband's problem manifested before they ever married and he's hiding just like she is. Like that movie with Jeff Bridges and Barbra Streisand where they get married to be married and not have to worry about sex anymore. What better solution for a man and woman who are hiding from themselves and the world?
I fear that ALL relationships degrade into roommate situations. I do fantasize that there's one perfect soulmate for me, and with him, I'll be able to commit.
Aargh. Not an either/or situation here, LW. More like a neither/nor. And the man you meet won't fix all your problems. You'll have a healthy relationship when you're ready to create one, not when you meet a fantasy guy. But it's easier to purport to be looking for your soulmate so you can keep one foot on the perfectly manicured lawn of married life and not put yourself out there in the big, bad world. You're telling yourself that you're staying true to your marriage while at the same time telling yourself you're looking for the right guy. In reality, you are doing neither. Pick one to work on.
NumberSix at May 10, 2011 9:09 PM
I fear that ALL relationships degrade into roommate situations.
This certainly isn't true of all relationships, but it might be true for the LW's. If she can take a hard, honest look at how and why it happened to her marriage, she might be able to figure out if it's inevitable for her, and if not, how to prevent it the next time.
One question left unanswered by her letter (at least the published portion): is this her first marriage? If not, has this happened to her before? I was about her age when I came to understand that I can't live with a woman without the relationship rotting away, but it took three such relationships, two of them marriages.
Rex Little at May 10, 2011 10:00 PM
To add to your questions, Rex: Why did she pick her husband to begin with? I'm interested to know whether the moratorium on sex was a chronic or acute problem. I'd lean toward the former, considering it's been going on for eight years and Hubby doesn't "complain much" (yikes) that his wife is seeing other men. I think Pedro is correct in assuming that LW is choosing men that will go along with her in having a roommate arrangement instead of a marriage. Because, LW, if one does not want to be in that type of relationship, one does not stay in it for eight more years.
Also, something I didn't notice my first two times reading the letter:
I pay all his expenses so he can live his dream life
This really creates more questions than answers, LW. What does this "dream life" of your husband's consist of? What is he so grateful you're financing that he's okay with you having flings with other men? Because now that I integrate this sentence into my opinion, it stands out as being a major factor in why the marriage is what it is. Not so much that LW's paying, but what it is she's paying for. Is it just that he enjoys being a kept man and decided two years in that he didn't need to trade sex for money anymore? Or is the money just an incentive for staying in a marriage when he doesn't want to or can't have sex with his wife? Did he think telling her he had lost his sex drive would lead her to cut off the gravy train, or was there more intent at the beginning of the relationship?
Regardless, these two people chose each other and she needs to figure out why if she wants to change anything.
NumberSix at May 10, 2011 11:21 PM
#6 you may be right, perhaps he has some eccentric problem. But if you reverse the sexes, it looks like a classic gold digger scenario.
Also how many lovers does this woman have, is it two or three? Whose the guy who wants to marry her now? Maybe she's the one losing interest in them. Is that why she can't commit?
Pedro at May 11, 2011 12:18 AM
What I don't get, and it's something I've seen before, is the "for reasons he won't tell me" and "He refuses to discuss it further." WHAT? We're married and you stop having sex with me, you're telling me the reasons and we're discussing it further.
I've read advice columns and both men and women put up with that shit. You don't want to have sex with me and won't tell me why and you're my ex-spouse PDQ.
I agree with the others. Her husband may have issues, but she's got plenty of her own. Pick a life and work on it as NumberSix said.
Kimberly at May 11, 2011 12:41 AM
She's obviously polyamorous and hasn't figured it out yet. He probably has fetishes that go way beyond the vanilla simplicity of "Is he my soulmate?" which is why the vanilla sex isn't a big draw for him. Who knows? Maybe their kink could sync up, if only they spoke to each other... If he's a cuckold who likes cream pies they might just be perfect for each other! If she's creative enough to mindfuck the shit out of him, he might show a little gratitude for the free ride he's getting.
Gspotted at May 11, 2011 1:23 AM
"he decided eight years ago that he was no longer interested in sex."
He probably decided he didn't want to catch anything incurable.
whistleDick at May 11, 2011 1:44 AM
If I hear the word "soulmate" one more time...how many people claim to dream about a soulmate waiting for them somewhere, while acting as if a soulmate was the furthest thing from their mind?
Old RPM Daddy at May 11, 2011 4:23 AM
Perfect comment RPM.
That soulmate concept always seems to come from people that have no notion of providing "soulmate" services for someone else.
It reminds me of people who always complain about all the terrible drivers that they have to contend with on the road. In my experience, the ones that like to lodge this complaint are typically the worst drivers on the road.
WhistleDick at May 11, 2011 4:31 AM
Dude sounds lazy. At least he could give the LW a little nookie here and there, considering how she's floating him financially. But no, he refuses to have sex, refuses to discuss it, and then actually voices his dislike of her 'taking lovers?' Can't have your (free) cake and eat it too, buddy!
But LW sounds lazy as well. Or lacking in self-esteem, or like other comments have stated, living in a dream world. Wake up, lady! Why are you riding this line between being married and looking for your 'soulmate?' And paying your loafer non-husband's bills in the meantime? I just don't get it.
All of my friends who have this ridiculous 'soulmate' philosophy on love are not only single, but lazy about doing the work to find someone who is good for them. They also don't take the time to think realistically about the give-and-take and acceptable compromise required to have a healthy partnership. I mean, you'll do the necessary, real-life work it takes to attain the career you want, but when it comes to love you refer to the Hans Christian Anderson playbook?
What are people so afraid of?
lori m. at May 11, 2011 6:48 AM
Oh come on. No woman in her right mind would do this—especially one who is willing to move to be close to a lover. I call fake.
Razor at May 11, 2011 8:22 AM
LW is spineless. "I'm not going to have sex any more and that is final!"
"Don't let it hit ya where the good Lord split ya."
Patrick at May 11, 2011 8:23 AM
RPM Daddy, every time I hear someone use the word "soulmate" I think they must be 13 years old.
I think the husband might be gay.
Pirate Jo at May 11, 2011 8:26 AM
Yeah... Either the husband is gay, or LW is doing something really, really wrong.
ahw at May 11, 2011 9:07 AM
I've said for years that I only hear the term "soulmate" used as a New Age excuse for adultery -- as in, "I know I'm married and have three kids, but Jason is my soooouuuulmate." Makes me gag.
This, from a woman who, three days from her sixteenth wedding anniversary, is still madly in love with her husband. (I might add he gives every evidence of feeling the same way about me.)
Dana at May 11, 2011 9:12 AM
I'm with Razor. I smell fraud. I think the LW is really a guy, but knows what kind of responses he would get to his situation, so he reversed the gender to see what Amy and the rest of us would say if the tables were turned.
Just sayin' at May 11, 2011 10:23 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/05/nodding-off-hil.html#comment-2126336">comment from Just sayin'The letter writer is NOT really a guy. And it appears you don't read me often or don't comprehend what you read. People don't lie about who they are because there's no reason to and it only compromises whether I can help them or not. They write and give detailed information -- much more than I can ever publish -- and this woman, I believe, was the one who sent me both a Starbucks gift card and an Amazon gift card to thank me for helping her (the latter came from her Amazon account -- her account in her name). I might be confusing her with another woman -- can't recall. But, how would my answer be different if it were a man asking the same question? What ridiculous tripe. Now I'm starting to feel sorry I wasted my time responding to this. I have a plane to catch today, and should get some column writing done before I go.
Amy Alkon at May 11, 2011 10:40 AM
I don't think that it's a guy, because a man would never pay a woman not to have sex with him for eight years!
Honestly this sounds like a woman who thinks that this is the best that she can get, and she is afraid to find out if that is true.
Pedro at May 11, 2011 10:48 AM
It really is about wanting to be "safe." And this is the woman who sent me the gift cards -- which was quite nice of her. I've been fueling my Sunday writing off that Starbucks card for the better part of a month. She seems to be a woman of means.
Amy Alkon at May 11, 2011 10:58 AM
my (now ex) husband stopped wanting sex about 2 years into our marriage. he was obsessed with his job, afraid if he didn't give it all of his energy he wouldn't be able to care for a family. (we won't discuss his alcoholic father or upbringing here). sex once every 3 or 4 years was all he would manage. he said having sex with me was "just one more thing to do". we eventually had two children (yes, it only does take one time - in this case two! - to get pregnant). i was a member of a very strict religion at the time and stayed "for the sake of the children". that got old really quick. i divorced him. he's not gay; i wasn't doing something horribly wrong; he just didn't want to. it took me a long time (too long) but unlike the LW i got out of there. we're both much happier now. it was scary to raise 2 children on my own - but scary was better than feeling unwanted! great advice as always, Ms Alkon!
zeldafreddy at May 11, 2011 11:16 AM
I certainly wouldn't feel "safe" or secure in a marriage where I had to pay to keep someone around who didn't want me.
ahw at May 11, 2011 12:03 PM
Amy writes:
"The letter writer is NOT really a guy. And it appears you don't read me often or don't comprehend what you read."
Wow! Bite my head off! Actually I have read almost everything you have written - column and blog-wise - for years and agree with you 99% of the time. In fact I agree with you on this as well. I'm not saying that your answer would have been different had it been a guy; I'm saying the LW may have thought that, if not you, your readers/commenters would respond differently.
And if you feel like you are wasting your time by responding to me, by all means, don't respond!
Pedro writes:
"I don't think that it's a guy, because a man would never pay a woman not to have sex with him for eight years!"
How many men have a wife at home who lives a "good life" thanks to his money, in exchange for him being "allowed" to screw any and everyone he wants without any grief at home.
Just sayin' at May 11, 2011 1:35 PM
If soulmates exist, my father and step monster are soul mates. My father left my mother 3 nights after she had spent three months selling all of our belongins and driving by herself with five kids from Mass. to Ga. The next weekend, we visited him. He had a whole other family, including a dog he treated better than us kids. My father and my step monster are soul mates, though...because I have never seen two people bring eachother down so low and in such perfect harmony and in perfect guiltless bliss.
To the letter writer:
1.Your husband is gay as ass fuck.
2.You are fucked up as the coo coo's nest.
3.Spend some money on therapy.
Amy...I wanna say...I always love your advice, but you should have referenced this one with a book or a JG weekend, or something. She needs therapy land too!
kg at May 11, 2011 3:30 PM
Go Amy! Give advice! Get spoiled!
Yea gift cards! Never mind the trolls :)
Gspotted at May 11, 2011 4:03 PM
Let me run this through my translator:
I've been married for 10 years. I'm 43, well-educated, financially well-off, and fit.
'I'm not a fattie and a catch in other areas.'
My husband and I are wonderful friends, and I love him dearly.
We treat each other as well as gracious strangers and it's a one way relationship...if that. She doesn't want to be a bad guy and say 'He does nothing for me anymore' (She would not be wrong in saying this, btw)
However, for reasons he won't tell me, he decided eight years ago that he was no longer interested in sex. He says it's "too much work." He refuses to discuss it further.
Something very significant happened two years into the marriage. (I wonder if she hired any private eyes to find out exactly what. I would.) Also not mentioned was how much bumping and grinding was happening both before and after marriage those first two years.
Only thing I can think of about this is
Biological: He can't get it up and won't discuss it
The Reveal: 'And after I told him about the time with the basketball team, he hasn't touched me'
The Incident: 'After that sex session where I told him to get on with it/ laughed at him/ told him he was a fat pig/ tried to do half the Kama Sutra in one go, he hasn't touched me'
The Development: Suddenly she's making a hell of a lot more money/ wildly more successful and his ego can't take it. OR he found someone more to his liking of whatever gender
I note she never mentions HIS age.
Also, for work reasons, we live apart.
One or both of them refuse to compromise their lifestyle at all. She isn't leaving whatever is making her financially well off (But she moved for lover boy...strange...)
So, I have taken lovers.
No Carmelite her. She wants human contact, reaffirmation that she IS a catch, something to do on a Friday night and (most) men only go to a play for a certain coin she is willing to pay.
My husband doesn't like this, but I pay all his expenses so he can live his dream life, so he doesn't complain much.
Wow! Ignoring what an ass he is 'I won't live with her or sleep with her, but how dare she humiliate me like this. Whah!', can you say controlling much? I'm not sure if this is graciousness, an indulgence for her getting her rocks off, or silence money.
His dream life? Garage band? Role Player? Some business that's never going to happen (Smelt on a stick)? No idea. Somehow his dream life isn't within three states of her.
Four years ago, I moved to be with a man I got involved with, but the relationship felt more like a bridge than a destination, so I went back to my husband.
I have no idea what to make of this. She doesn't mention how long they've been living apart. And if she 'went back to' that involves LIVING TOGETHER! Again, she can move for Jeff Bridges, but not for hubby. WTF? Absence does not make the heart grow fonder and she's not trying any harder then Hardly Working.
Now, I love a man who wants to marry me, but I fear that ALL relationships degrade into roommate situations. I do fantasize that there's one perfect soulmate for me, and with him, I'll be able to commit. For now, I guess staying married helps me keep up appearances that I'm stable and normal while I hold on to the fairy tale that marriage is a forever relationship.
'I'll be fiscally raped in the divorce and I'm not sure that New Love isn't going to get bored too.' (He will. You will. You have before. Get over it. But it won't happen in two years and it won't be the end of the world)
And your relationship isn't stable or normal now. Why worry about that?
I'm glad she's gracious and generous. I wish I knew more about the relationship pre 'The Event'. Two years...She was 33. He was...something. If he's significantly older, then I understand his reactions, particularly re her earnings etc. Even the slightest bit of rubbing an older guy's nose in her success can be poison to a relationship. And it sounds like that happened.
flydye at May 11, 2011 6:57 PM
You take lovers because you pay your husbands expenses - if the genders were reversed, would the guy be able to say I keep lovers because I pay the expenses of the fat pig who stays in my house and so she should not mind?
Redrajesh at May 12, 2011 4:02 AM
BTW, you are pretty much my dream woman if you are willing to pay my expenses as long as you don't cheat on me.....I just like equality as long as it is practiced properly
Redrajesh at May 12, 2011 4:03 AM
"Also, for work reasons, we live apart."
But she also says she's also paying all of his expenses. So that implies that he doesn't work. So if he doesn't work, why can't he just move to where she is? That doesn't add up. They aren't living together because one of them doesn't want to live together. Now, living together isn't mandatory for a relationship, but it sounds to me like the LW and her husband don't agree on this point. Why? What's the motivation for not living together when it seems it would be fairly easy to do? Maybe what's actually happening is that he has a "job" that doesn't actually pay money: flydye's comment about garage bands is apropos here. Trouble is, that's not a spouse, that's a dependent.
Speaking of which: I think there's a psychological quid pro quo here. "My husband doesn't like this, but I pay all his expenses so he can live his dream life..." What that sounds like to me is "I have the money, so I wear the pants in the relationship". Which could explain why no push-in-the-bush.
Cousin Dave at May 12, 2011 9:12 AM
Please note that there are myriad things he might have said or done two years ago which might have made it PERFECTLY FINE for her to not be chased around the room by her husband.
He isn't winning any prizes from me. And if fact she may very well behaving like one of those old fashioned classy relationships where she's stuck in a bad situation and the two of them are functioning the best that they can with the least talk. Which speaks well of her, if true.
That said, either can move. Neither will. That sums it up.
All that remains is the forking...cause they're done.
flydye at May 12, 2011 10:20 AM
What exactly is her question?
It sounds like she's using her 'husband' as a beard. She wants to maintain the appearance of propriety while 'taking lovers' - god what a pretentious phrase. It may be that she's been taking lovers all along, that she doesn't actually want to commit. That's why it's too much work for her husband, and why she doesn't press the issue. But if she's already 43, this problem will soon solve itself.
So again, what exactly is her question? Should she marry the man who currently wants to marry her? Probably not.
Marvin at May 12, 2011 6:02 PM
One thing occured to me: He doesn't want to use Ms. Kitty and they live apart.
Exactly how hard is it to have a sexual relationship which is discrete when your 'husband' is geographically distant? It's not like he's going to notice rumpled sheets and crusty undies if they are in different buildings.
Did she start the lover route as a way to try to jumpstart some sort of reaction out of hubby or just a way to get laid?
flydye at May 12, 2011 6:51 PM
Perfect advice by Amy though the reasoning is way more considerate than what would be the reasoning offered to a guy. If this were a man saying something like this about his wife, people would mostly give the same advice of try to get her in the mood etc etc and put the action item on the guy(though he may not survive having lovers....that is a facility only women enjoy). The moment the guy starts having lovers, everyone will point fingers at him as the bad part of the relationship and will ignore everything the wife did and will be out to rip him apart like a pack of lions ripping apart a zebra. Still the text of the letter leaves out many loose ends and the situation described is pretty unlikely without any provocation for the same on the lw's part and that probably holds the key to everything.
Redrajesh at May 13, 2011 2:38 AM
If she's really paying all his bills, the lack of interest in sex may be a sense of emasculation.
Lobster at May 13, 2011 3:00 PM
If she's really paying all his bills, the lack of interest in sex may be a sense of emasculation.
I can just hear the retort too. "Am I supposed to be a failure just so he can get it up?"
No. But there is a certain delicacy which is required. Maybe she was and maybe she wasn't. But considering the results, how successful do you think she might have been with her tact?
I don't know if it was Amy, but there certainly have been a number of articles about how very successful career women have a much harder time finding dates then more moderately successful women, though you can argue the causes.
flydye at May 13, 2011 9:19 PM
"...articles about how very successful career women have a much harder time finding dates then more moderately successful women, though you can argue the causes."
Interesting point flydye. A woman I work with who is pursuing a doctorate doesn't tell that to men on the first date. She's already successful and good for her for reaching for more, but she's learned to play it down to get that second date. BTW she's also gorgeous with a great body, so yea some might be a bit intimidated.
However, you said it all with your retort. I'd rather be successful with my friends around me than playing it down for the sake of sissy's fragile ego. If that is the case, it's time for someone to wipe his nose and grow up.
Gspotted at May 14, 2011 8:12 AM
Gspotted Says:
"A woman I work with who is pursuing a doctorate doesn't tell that to men on the first date. She's already successful and good for her for reaching for more, but she's learned to play it down to get that second date."
This is a curious statement to me as I don't know how to reconcile the claim that she is "already successful" but is currently pursuing a doctorate.
What exactly is this woman pursuing a doctorate in?
In general a doctorate in the humanities carries a stipend that is a little more than a living wage (if that even). If the doctorate is in the sciences or engineering then this individual is looking at a maximum of around 35K per year and more likely closer to 25K.
So by what metric are you suggesting that this person is “already successful”?… Did this person become independently wealthy in a previous career before deciding to go back to school with a giant pay cut?
Is this person pursuing a doctorate in a field that allows you to earn one while working (like some social service doctorates work)?
Needless to say, I feel like the usage of the word “success” seems inappropriate if you are referring to some sort of financial success. If you are talking about a different kind of success then that is fine, but most likely her being an emotional success or a health success or an academic success isn’t going to “intimidate” most men.
Reality at May 14, 2011 8:17 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2011/05/nodding-off-hil.html#comment-2138718">comment from RealityI was very up-front with exactly who I was and what I wanted (no marriage, no children). A man who's right for me wants a woman who's doing something intellectually compelling and entrepreneurial, and would admire and appreciate it and not be put off by it.
Amy Alkon at May 14, 2011 8:20 PM
I was very up-front with exactly who I was and what I wanted (no marriage, no children).
I'm exactly the same - now. No serious takers as yet, but I live in hope.
and would admire and appreciate it and not be put off by it.
I want an intelligent, self reliant woman. I'm pretty ok in the intelligence department myself so that doesn't threaten me in the slightest - and the last thing I want is someone who tries to "look after me" or otherwise become my servant. Quite apart from clinginess putting me off, it just ain't good for me.
Ltw at May 15, 2011 4:24 AM
For now, I guess staying married helps me keep up appearances that I'm stable and normal while I hold on to the fairy tale that marriage is a forever relationship.
That's pretty much the ultimate in denial LW. You destroyed that fairy tale a long time ago. All you have left is a legal fiction.
Ltw at May 15, 2011 4:26 AM
I need a bright woman as well. But the reason that a lot of financially successful women have trouble with men isn't because they're 'intimidating', it's because they're aggressive type-A personalities. In other words they're selfish and kind of obnoxious. Those are good traits for making it financially, but really annoying to deal with in a relationship. I suspect that women feel the same way.
Paulo at May 15, 2011 8:27 AM
I wish I had married this woman. Eight years and paying all my expenses?
BOTU at May 15, 2011 11:48 AM
Disagree a bit, Ltw but the biggest problem with assertive go getter independent wealthy women isn't their ambition, or their wealth. It's the middle part. At least for me.
Don't take this the wrong way! I would like to be thought of as necessary in the life of my significant other and to a lot of women these days, well, that's betraying The Cause.
Now, Amy has clearly stated that she can't see living without Greg and that's just as good IMO.
But a women who can 'slot you into her life' because it's time for baby making or the house seems empty otherwise. With passion like that, I'll save myself the waste of divorce costs.
Paulo, yeah. I agree.
flydye at May 15, 2011 12:06 PM
Good Luck finding your own sugar, BOTU ;)
Reality--My coworker is the principle of a school and her success as an administrator should continue well past that once she has edD tacked on her resume. It saddens me that she feels she has to conceal her success, but it does not surprise me. Just as generations of black slaves had to hide their gifts for fear of being separated from their families and sold off for the amusement of the wealthy who wanted to watch the monkey dance and sing, women too have learned to play down their gifts so as not to be viewed in a negative light for possessing qualities that are typical of males (or what we think of as typical because of hetero patriarchal brainwashing.) That's why so many women in high powered positions have impostor syndrome. That's why Melissa commits the sin of omission on the first date.
@Amy I'm up front too, the tricky part is when folks say they're okay with your boundaries/preferences and they're really not.
@flydye If this guy knew she was loaded going in and then felt emasculated later, as has been speculated, then he's just blaming her for his lack of internal boundary setting/taking stock of his own needs before they hooked up and that's not her responsibility.
Gspotted at May 15, 2011 12:51 PM
"My coworker is the principle of a school and her success as an administrator should continue well past that once she has edD tacked on her resume."
Er, an Ed. D. is not a Ph. D, although a lot of people like to think it is. Second, if a woman told me that she was working on an Ed. D., the first thought that would pop into my head would be "entitled have-it-both-ways feminist whiner". So yeah, I'd head towards the door too.
Cousin Dave at May 15, 2011 3:05 PM
Cousin Dave-- If that's the first thought that poops into your head you might be harboring some bitterness up in there. They have therapy for that.
Gspotted at May 15, 2011 5:17 PM
Gspotted
Recall we are speculating on facts not necessarily in evidence.
However, for an example of how things may or may not change in a relationship, I refer you to the prior thread: LW was with girl and had a reasonably clear stated position re marriage. That was okay...until it wasn't.
So, if we're psychoanalyzing these two on the cheap on the Internet (why not? Why else come here?), let's go. She has some cash, but afraid of being taken for a ride/scaring off the guy, she downplayed that little fact.
He slowly gets to see her qualities and her wealth and decides that, while it's a bit off putting, he thinks he loves her and 'love conquers all', right? They even have a few talks about the whole thing. Maybe promises were made.
Until That Night, when, feeling dissatisfied with his education/employment aspirations/his choice of blue collar friends who always try to look down her blouse etc, she lashes out with a 'Look, I'm paying for the opera/putting food on the table/supplying the swill your friends drink, so suck it up and do it my way.' (I know. I'm wrong. Women are always tactful gentle creatures, always fairy delicate with the feelings of their menfolk and would NEVER say something that stupid, hateful or cruel in the heat of the moment.)
And suddenly the elephant is in the bedroom and in the course of six months he decides she isn't really as hot as he used to think. Because implied contempt is SUCH an aphrodisiac for men. Since he doesn't have two nickles to rub together for warmth, much less a divorce, he...withdraws.
She, feeling guilty for her words, lets him. When Ms Kitty gets randy, and feeling he hasn't 'gotten over it' fast enough, well, the answer is obvious, isn't it?
People change. People break promises. Things you thought you could put up with, you decide aren't worth the effort.
flydye at May 15, 2011 7:50 PM
"I know. I'm wrong. Women are always tactful gentle creatures, always fairy delicate with the feelings of their menfolk and would NEVER say something that stupid, hateful or cruel in the heat of the moment." - are you being sarcastic? If women are tactful, how come it is always men who are told to handle crises in operations, especially those which the women create? And women are just given the task of reading out pre written speeches to the public(it is not that women do a better job...it is just that nobody will beat her up) or given a cushy job in HR where they have nothing to do except yap all day?
Redrajesh at May 15, 2011 10:35 PM
Disagree a bit, Ltw but the biggest problem with assertive go getter independent wealthy women isn't their ambition, or their wealth.
Not really what I meant flydye, I'll clarify. I mean socially intelligent and able to cope on her own without having to be attached like a conjoined twin. Assertive and wealthy are not really what I'm looking for (and to be fair, the go-getter types can't deal with me because I'm fundamentally lazy).
My last long term ex-gf left school at 15 and is basically broke. But she is very intelligent and has a lot of common sense. Especially when it comes to natural people skills, an area in which I bow down to her mastery. She's working for an IT company now even though she has little to no computer experience - they would rather teach her the computer skills than try to teach an IT expert people skills - which has burnt them before.
And she didn't need her hand held for simple stuff or demand that we had to go to every single thing as a couple. In contrast to a woman who stayed with me recently when I went interstate for a work trip - she'd be dozing on the bed while I was working, I would say I was going downstairs for a smoke, she would get up and dressed and follow me down 'for company' every time. I wasn't mean to her about it - she was trying to be nice - but I couldn't cope with that for more than a couple of days.
Ltw at May 16, 2011 1:20 AM
@flydye maybe, but I think this guy has some kinky fetish and the vanilla isn't cutting the mustard for him. I moonlight as a domme and I work with these guys all the time. Married, posing as vanilla (or even dominant) for wifey, but their real desires go much deeper than a roll in the hay.
I work with one guy who hasn't done it in seven years, he doesn't want to-- he'd much rather be humiliated and cuckolded. It all started when he found out that his wife was cheating, instead of being pissed off... he was excited :) However we might judge him, he knows what he likes and gets off his own way.
maybe your right, but...I don't know. All people slip up and say some shit they don't mean to their nearest and dearest. Most couples get over it so they can get back to doing what they hooked up for in the first place- fucking. How else would ex sex or make up sex occur? This guy is getting it somewhere (some way), just not in the way we might think.
Gspotted at May 16, 2011 3:51 AM
Yes, that part is left unaddressed. Does the LW not care? Is she too humiliated to want to look? Does she know and not want to say that her gaydar was WAY off? No idea. Amy seems to think that aside from her problem, she seems classy and well put together.
I am aware that a whole subdivision of porn addresses that very issue, so someone somewhere has that kink. But...he doesn't like that she's screwing around. She was clear on that.
That said, if you are a hammer, soon all you see are nails. If you're a Domme....[whistles tunelessly] Don't mistake 'not giving a damn' with a fetish. It could be a low sex drive tied with other psychological issues.
One wonders why she's so generous...what other word starts with 'g'?
flydye at May 16, 2011 4:57 AM
Something to consider is that her husband may very well be 'taking lovers' of his own and just not telling her.
nico at May 16, 2011 8:57 AM
Gspotted Says:
“My coworker is the principle of a school and her success as an administrator should continue well past that once she has edD tacked on her resume.”
Good for her, but as I suspected it isn’t the traditional doctoral route where someone sacrifices years of their young life being underpaid and overworked in order to get the credentials tacked on. That may not mean much to you or much to your friend, but it will mean a great deal to someone who spent their early twenties earning practically nothing in order to get those letters.
That isn’t meant to disparage your friends achievements, but it is important to keep in mind because it will influence perceptions. Just as someone might not feel the same way about someone’s accomplishments if they were “vice president” of a business their parents owned. Certain accomplishments take significant sacrifices for some people to achieve and it doesn’t sit well with them when someone else seems to be having their cake and eating it too.
All that being said, I still don’t feel it is a reason for your friend to conceal her accomplishments. After all, it will only have the above meaning if she is dating someone else with a doctoral degree… or are those the only people she will date?
“Just as generations of black slaves had to hide their gifts for fear of being separated from their families and sold off for the amusement of the wealthy who wanted to watch the monkey dance and sing, women too have learned to play down their gifts so as not to be viewed in a negative light for possessing qualities that are typical of males”
Are you honestly comparing the trials and tribulations of slavery with those of a school administrator who is earning a doctoral degree?
These are not even remotely the same thing.
“That's why Melissa commits the sin of omission on the first date.”
If that was the only problem she was having on the dating scene wouldn’t it have been fixed already once she isolated the problem and them “omitted” the information?
It seems to me that even after this realization she is still dating around and still not finding someone with whom she is a long term match. I suspect her problem isn’t the degree but something else and the degree makes for a convenient scapegoat.
Reality at May 16, 2011 6:43 PM
@flydye Ummmmm...Have we met?
@Reality Am I "honestly comparing the trials and tribulations of slavery with those of a school administrator who is earning a doctoral degree?"
Obviously not. I'm merely comparing one type of oppression to another and bringing up the idea that generations of imprinting has an affect on the present day psyche.
Melissa is 39 and has worked up through the ranks, there's no reason she should feel anything but pride in her achievements. For whatever reason (I'm not her therapist) she plays it down. I have my theory, you have yours.
Gspotted at May 16, 2011 7:09 PM
@flydye Ummmmm...Have we met?
I don't think so. If you are insinuating that I have no right to make guesses about you and yours, you are correct. These were generic statements about how experience shapes perception
As far as semi-professionally? No.
As far as generically socially? Maybe. NJ and Ohio. If neither rings a bell, then probably not.
flydye at May 16, 2011 10:25 PM
There are different weightings on what's regarded as success for men vs women. Women with what would be moderate accomplishments for a man are regarded as wildly successful by other women. I suspect that it has to do with expectations.
tino at May 17, 2011 8:10 AM
Gspotted Says:
“I'm merely comparing one type of oppression to another and bringing up the idea that generations of imprinting has an affect on the present day psyche.”
Except that slavery actually is oppression and how one chooses to behave on the dating scene with regard to their educational accomplishments is not.
Even making a comparison at all trivializes what slavery actually is. These two things are so enormously different that any comparison at all is kind of insulting to those who actually have dealt with slavery.
You might as well be comparing human beings to a light bulb and say “well they both weigh something”.
“For whatever reason (I'm not her therapist) she plays it down. I have my theory, you have yours.”
I do not know your friend so I have very little information to go on in her specific case. What I can say is this, of the 50+ women I know who have or are pursuing doctoral degrees only a very small fraction are having trouble on the dating scene (probably not a worse fraction than the population in general).
As a result it is difficult for me to conclude that those women are having trouble because of their level of education. From my personal interactions with the ones who are in healthy relationships compared to those who are not it is clear to me that significant personality differences exist between the two groups.
The differences I have noted are that the ones who fail to succeed in the dating market are typically cold, annoying and bossy. By contrast the ones who succeed in the dating market are warm, caring and collaborative.
Needless to say, I have heard the claim that the degree makes men shy away from the very same women who refuse to look at all the other women around then with the same level of education that are doing just fine in the relationship department. From where I stand it isn’t the degree, but the person behind the degree who matters.
So the question I would ask you is which adjectives you think best characterize your friend?
Reality at May 17, 2011 8:29 AM
@ flydye door number one, but you do remind me of someone from door number two ;)
@Reality My coworker is professional, detail oriented and warm. She's told me a lot about her personal life (a lot of people do) but I don't consider her a friend. She's asked me to go out with her, but I don't socialize with people from work--as much as I'd like to "hit up the house of blues some night", as she has suggested, it's a strict rule of mine. I know only what she has offered up and can't really say much else. She doesn't do drugs, but she drinks socially. She works out almost daily and she makes time for her family and friends, despite being busy with work and school. Maybe she's different with men, but she seems nice enough to me.
FYI Most of the people who have actually "dealt with slavery" and who are still alive today are female. Human trafficking ring any bells? Melissa is making a choice, but not everyone is aware of where their decision making comes from or how deep it goes. I'm just speculating on what her choice might stem from, the roots could be deep or shallow.
Gspotted at May 17, 2011 5:43 PM
Human trafficking ring any bells?
Only as a scam political activists use to steal, excuse me, appropraite, tax dollars so they can pay themselves to sit around and avoid getting a real job
lujlp at May 17, 2011 7:52 PM
I am LW. It took me a while to feel comfortable enough to read comments. It is a strange experience having something so close to your heart and so personal examined so closely. I have found from this experience that strangers sometimes give the best advice, and definitely the most frank advice. I am amazed how right on your intuitions have been.
BTW, I am very much a woman.
I am surprised that anyone might believe that only men might be in this situation. Welcome to the 21st century! I came from a family that lived on welfare, and I am proud that I have become successful on my own. I put myself through college and graduate school and I have worked my ass off. I didn't want to be dependent on men or the government the way my mother and aunts and grandmothers were. Their experiences terrifed me--putting up with abuse, living in poverty, and feeling frightened about the future. It was important to me to be able to take care of myself, and also have the means to take care of others I care about. I always thought this was a good thing. I didn't think that because I was a woman, it would be different for me.
I DO think being successful is kind of scary to men, and it takes a very confident man to be okay with that. I am realizing that now.
I don't care about a guy's financial state--I have chosen men who are really smart and somewhat eccentric; men who make me laugh and who challenge me mentally.
Interestingly, some people were curious about my husband and I's age difference. Maybe they were on to something. My husband is 11 years older than me. Also, he doesn't work. He lives in a resort and skis or hikes and goes to happy hour every day.
I liked the Dominatix's comments. I do think he has some kinky interests from looking at his "secret" huge stash of porn.
And..even as a woman who has lovers, sexually, I am "vanilla." I primarily love kissing and gentleness. Maybe that is my fetish.
I am not that good at confrontations, and it is just easier to let him do his thing than pressure him or guilt trip him.
I liked ALL the comments. I laughed at some of them, including that it was immature to think of soulmates. Sure, but can't I be silly?
I think Amy is wonderful, and I love her humor. She followed up on everything I wrote with multiple emails, and spent a great deal of time on "my case." Yes, I did give her gift cards. I admire her very much and I really appreciated her time. Also, despite her thorny humor, she actually seemed to care about me.
I also thank "gspotted" for his or her comments.The "translation" was right on.
This experience has given me the confidence to change my life and learn how to be a better partner.
LW at July 3, 2011 5:09 AM
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