The Spinster Cycle
I'm a 32-year-old woman with a Ph.D. I'm beyond happy with my career path, but I'm not meeting men I'm impressed with or inspired to see again. A girlfriend sent me a New York Times op-ed by a historian named Stephanie Coontz, who said that highly educated women can find a man if they drop "the cultural ideal of hypergamy -- that women must marry up." Coontz advises women to "reject the idea that the ideal man is taller, richer, more knowledgeable, more renowned or more powerful." She claims a woman's marital happiness is predicted not by how much she looks up to her husband, "but how sensitive he is to her emotional cues and how willing he is to share the housework and child-care. And those traits are often easier to find in a low-key guy than a powerhouse." She then adds, "I'm not arguing that women ought to 'settle.'" Really? Sounds that way to me.
--Dismayed
Yes, you can have it all -- a high-powered education, a high-powered career, and the perfect high-powered man to go with. Of course, it helps if you're willing to relax your standards a little, like by widening your pool of acceptable male partners to include the recently deceased.
I respect Stephanie Coontz as a historian, but as a forecaster of economic and romantic possibilities for women, I have to give her a thumbs-down. Coontz claims that "for a woman seeking a satisfying relationship as well as a secure economic future, there has never been a better time to be or become highly educated." Actually, as doctorate holders "Occupying" sleeping bags outside city halls will tell you, that depends on what you're becoming highly educated in. Ph.D. in financial engineering? Hedge fund, here you come. Ph.D. in Tibetan gender studies? You'll be lucky to be teaching the merits of pulverized lavender in the body oils section of the food co-op.
Coontz is wrong again in deeming hypergamy -- women's preference for men of a higher socio-economic status -- a cultural construct. The preference for the alpha male is biological, an evolutionary adaptation that exists in women across cultures -- and species. (Do we really think the lady peacock wants the alpha male peacock because she's been watching way too much "Desperate Housewives"?)
Some feminist academics claim that women only want big bucks/high status men because they lack those things themselves. But, a number of studies by evolutionary psychologists have found that women with big bucks and big jobs want men with bigger bucks and bigger jobs. Even women who are feminists. Dr. Bruce J. Ellis writes in The Adapted Mind that when 15 feminist leaders described their ideal man, they repeatedly used words like "very rich," "brilliant," and "genius" (and they didn't mean "genius with a baby wipe!").
So, if you've become the man you would've married in the '50s, don't be surprised if your mating pool starts to seem about the size of the one that comes with Barbie's Dream House. Biology is neither fair nor kind. What those pushing feel-good sociology don't want to believe or tell you is that you increase your options by being hot -- or hotting yourself up the best you can. Obviously, looks aren't all that matter, but while your female genes are urging you to blow past the hot pool boy to get to the moderately attractive captain of industry, men evolved to prioritize looks in women, so powerful men will date powerfully beautiful waitresses and baristas. As evolutionary psychologist Dr. David Buss writes, "Women's physical attractiveness is the best known predictor of the occupational status of the man she marries and the best known predictor of hypergamy."
There isn't a person on the planet who doesn't have to settle. (Maybe Brad Pitt farts in bed.) Want kids? You're more likely to find yourself a husband to have them with if you do as Coontz suggests -- go for a man who's shorter, poorer, and not that intellectually exciting but who's emotionally present and willing to be appointed vice president of diaper rash. Problem solved -- if you can keep from seething with contempt for his lack of ambition and intellect. A lack of respect for one's spouse is definitely not the ground happy marriages are built on. That's why settling is most wisely discussed not as some blanket policy for women, but in terms of what an individual woman wants and what she's willing and able to give up to get it. Realistically assessing that for yourself is how you find your happiest medium -- between possibly being in a panic to find a sperm donor at 42 and trying to make it work now with some guy who watches the soaps after dusting a few surfaces and drinking a few too many glasses of blush wine.
She claims a woman's marital happiness is predicted not by how much she looks up to her husband, "but how sensitive he is to her emotional cues and how willing he is to share the housework and child-care.
Like the last column, I just happen to have a translator available for this statement. From Social Constructs Are Always to Blame Feministese to English: "A woman's marital happiness is predicted entirely by things her husband does."
Like Amy says, a woman is responsible for her choices and how she weighs what she's getting against what she wants to get. Personal Responsibility is the flavor of the day. I recommend it in a waffle cone with sprinkles.
In addition, I want to dispute what so many people who write to Amy seem to think about what it means that women tend to desire power in men. A column a few years back addressed how it's really the man's status/power/ambition/whatever within what's important to the woman that matters. I think she said how a poet probably wouldn't be happy with a money-grubbing CEO but probably would be happy with a creative type who was ambitious within his field. Power is entirely in the eye of the beholder.
NumberSix at April 3, 2012 9:22 PM
> I'm a 32-year-old woman with a Ph.D.
Background: I've dated women with PhDs, I've dated surgeons, I've dated lawyers with Harvard JDs...and I've dated middle school teachers, web designers, and secretaries.
An observation: most women with impressive careers think that their impressive careers make them catches.
Guys aren't wired that way. At a biological level we DON'T think that your PhD, JD, or MD makes you better wife and mother material. In fact, a woman five years younger with no accomplishments other than preschool teaching pushes the biological buttons.
The problem, then, is that the women with impressive degrees or careers think that this catapults them several ranks higher in the desirability ranking, and then they look for guys with the same credentials, who should be THRILLED to find an educated woman who works 70 hrs/week.
An average looking woman (call her a 6) with a JD and a 60 hr/week job thinks that she's gone from being a 6 to a 9, and wants a guy who's a 9.
...but her career has really knocked her down to a 4.
...so when she goes looking for guys, she's looking WAY out of her league.
It's not that these 6s-turned-to-4s should "settle" for someone beneath them. It's that they should acknowledged that their proper tier is a LOT lower than they think it is.
TJIC at April 4, 2012 4:34 AM
TJIC said it better than I could. In addition, a JD is basically professional training in arguing, and thus a negative quality for a prospective mate. For some, outstanding good looks might compensate, but not me.
Hot and nice is the perfect combination.
MarkD at April 4, 2012 5:38 AM
The diploma doesn't lower stock by default, but if it's tied to a pretentious attitude, TJIC is 'bang on'. I've always assumed these people were assholes to start with and are a point where they think others don't notice.
nuzltr2 at April 4, 2012 7:21 AM
Well said TJIC. Though I'd add that men and dating go by first impressions, so that 6 still initially looks like a 6, it takes a while before her attitude and career demands would drop her to a 5 or a 4.
The real problem is that the 6 thinks she is a 9, and acts on it.
Joe J at April 4, 2012 7:41 AM
Sounds like LW's friend is trying to let her know-gently- that she might be a little unrealistic about her expectations. LW might be able to date men who are high-status MBAs or PHDs or whatever, but they're not going to look like Don Draper. That tall, dark, and handsome 35-year-old fund manager is already dating a petite 24-year-old who is in her first post-college job as an administrative assistant.
I don't like to call it "settling," I prefer "being realistic." If you don't look like a model, you're probably not going to marry a rock star. Of course there are exceptions, I just don't know any personally.
I did notice that LW doesn't actually mention what she's looking for. So if she thinks someone who "only" has a BS in Engineering is unimpressive, she's overly self-impressed and a snot. If she's disqualifying dudes who are $80k in debt and live on their Momma's couches, that's reasonable.
ahw at April 4, 2012 8:33 AM
I don't like to call it "settling," I prefer "being realistic."
Awesome. lol
Mike Hunter at April 4, 2012 8:58 AM
I think the guys have it right. It is not her education or career that is holding her back, it's her attitude about them that is. I am smart and have a masters degree but I am no 9 and yet I always had plenty of boyfriends while at school. The difference is, I didn't walk around with a giant chip on my shoulder either.
I do think the guys are wrong though when they say men don't care if they have smart wives. Most of the guys I dated were very smart men who wanted a woman who could keep up. My own husband has told me several times that he is grateful he married someone smart because it does make you a better mother.
This girl needs to take a good long look not just in the mirror, but at her attitude and see which one is really holding her back. Maybe the friend who sent her the article could provide her with some honest feedback. She just needs to be open to hearing the truth and then acting on it.
Sheep mommy at April 4, 2012 9:17 AM
Here is an article from the Daily Mail UK that gets to this point. The girl wrote yesterday about how everyone hates her because she is so beautiful. While she is pretty enough, I wouldn't classify her as a nine and I certainly wouldn't be envious of her. Her article provoked such a reaction that it got a part two today. This link is to the part two.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2124701/Samantha-Brick-Daily-Mail-article-everyones-STILL-talking-Twitter.html
Sheep mommy at April 4, 2012 9:25 AM
Whether we're talking about education, money, looks, or talent, I don't think there's a difference in the fact that all people have to decide what's 'good enough' for them. That means, let go of some idea of "Mr/Ms Perfect" and decide what's most important to you in a life partner. No one person is going to have everything exactly as your fantasy dictates.
I agree with the people who suggest that LW needs to take some constructive criticism (as Sheep Mommy suggested) about what's holding her back in the dating scene. It may be her own idealism that disqualifies every guy she dates. Or maybe she's always focused on education/career and has not given adequate time to learn what she wants in a partner. She certainly doesn't mention it in the letter...
I married a guy who is less educated than I am, but on a maturity level is MUCH more evolved than many smartypants dudes I've come across. That was more important to me, because we are able to communicate philosophically without all the intellectual mumbo jumbo. Yes, he has a good job, and that was a factor too, when we first started dating (I was sick of deadbeats). But mostly he was super hot and a rockin guitar player. And I knew he'd be a great dad, which he is.
Lori M at April 4, 2012 9:48 AM
An observation: most women with impressive careers think that their impressive careers make them catches.
Funny. I doubt most people would call my career "impressive" - I myself hesitate sometimes in calling it a "career." But I make enough money that I don't have to worry about money, and the main point wasn't that it made me a catch, it was that it no longer matters whether I'm a catch in the first place.
I just wanted to get a nice little place of my own, live my own life by my own rules, and pay my own bills. I didn't want to have to marry some jerk in order to buy shoes, like the wife of last week's LW.
As everyone here keeps saying, consistent with what I learned growing up, nobody likes ugly girls. You have to be HOT! But if you're never going to be a "catch," doesn't it just make sense to manage your expectations, stop caring whether you are one or not, and enjoy the life you make for yourself?
Pirate Jo at April 4, 2012 9:58 AM
Sheep mommy - totally agree with you about liking smart women. My husband really enjoys intellectual stimulation. We have a lot of fun with that.
AntoniaB at April 4, 2012 10:39 AM
Why would anyone let someone else's idea of what they want or "should want" in a mate guide their choices, especially Stephanie Coontz?
Hot is great, and smart is great too, but both are relative. I went out with a smoking hot woman in college who was not conventionally attractive, but was smart, funny, nice, and interested in experimentation, if you get my drift.
I would rather date a woman with a B.A. or B.S. who had a good sense of humor, and was interested in the world around her, than a J.D. or Ph.D. who thought that having the degree meant she knew everything worth knowing.
alittlesense at April 4, 2012 10:43 AM
@Sheep mommy, my first reaction at seeing Samantha Brick's pic was "Really? Maybe she's considered pretty in the UK...". Hurray for her level of self-confidence. But then again, I don't understand Jennifer Aniston's appeal so maybe I'm missing something.
Cam at April 4, 2012 10:49 AM
Sorry still stuck on Samantha Brick. I have Flight of the Conchords "Most Beautiful Girl" stuck in my head now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmDTSQtK20c
You are so beautiful, you could be a part-time model. But you'll probably have to still keep your normal job.
Cam at April 4, 2012 11:22 AM
Wow. When I clicked on the Samantha link, I was mentally preparing to weep in shame at my average looks while basking in the glory of her hotness. Not so much. I was even a little sympathetic that such an average-looking girl would get so many venomous comments. I didn't read the first article, but my guess is that she came off as a predator. The kind that thinks she can spread her legs and all men, including your man, will come running. A lot of women don't appreciate that.
Meloni at April 4, 2012 11:37 AM
Meloni-
Her deal is that she believes every bad thing that has ever happened to her is because she is just soooo pretty that other women are jealous of her. For instance, Ms. Brick didn't get a promotion she wanted and that was bc her female boss was old, unhappy, and intimidated by her beauty. She painted us all with a pretty broad brush and was rude about it. I think every woman should have confidence in who she is, but this lady refuses to believe that there could be anything else going on besides her inflated view of herself. She, like LW, needs a reality check. I think she just got a very public one!
sheepmommy at April 4, 2012 12:06 PM
Wow. Just went to te Samantha Brick Link... HAHAHAHAHA! If that's beautiful, I'm supermodel material!
Now I have to go back and read the original article...
ahw at April 4, 2012 12:12 PM
2012 is shaping up to be Hypergamy Awareness Year.
Jet Tibet at April 4, 2012 12:32 PM
women's preference for men of a higher socio-economic status -- a cultural construct
I suggest that the cultural norms making it acceptable for women to be dependents as they pursue an education clash with the cultural norm that for a male to become an ideal man he must do the same in an independent manner (as a non-dependent). Thus, after years of slaving away in challenging jobs (construction, mechanic, other labor jobs, etc.) males wake the hell up in their 30's & realize that women have a much easier time reaching their educational goals (please, serving cocktails, a hostess at a restaurant socializing w/the bartenders, retail?!) & thus by teh time a male IS a man (and a decent, educated one at that), he's too smart & holds some resentment to entertain getting involved w/an educated woman who's quite frankly, never really or metphorically had to shovel 2 tons of gravel out of the back of a pickup truck & into a wheelbarrow to build a koi pond nor hauled insulation out of an old attic & down a ladder & out to a dumpster. "Smoking or Non-Smoking?" simply doesn't match.
It's not that one is an educated woman, it's that one has not the same or even remotely the same equity.
The solution may be to find a male who's not living a script & who's a non-self-actualized, not internally motivated, not self-directed dependent. Someone like ...yourself Dismayed? They're everywhere!
adambein at April 4, 2012 1:36 PM
If it makes the LW feel any better, the man she marries, if she marries, will also be settling for her.
That's not an insult. Everyone who gets married can imagine a better partner, but we have to decide, "Am I willing to give this up in exchange for something I might never find?" People who marry decide, "Yeah, this is pretty good." And there are any number of people who will be just fine, so don't fall into the trap of thinking you have to find "the one."
In the wise words of Tim Minchin:
"If I didn't have you I really think that I would have somebody else."
MonicaP at April 4, 2012 4:37 PM
I would say that the ones who usually lose out are the men who marry a 9, have a couple of kids, and suddenly have a lvl 4 hosebeast watching soap operas and eating bonbons because she feels she doesn't have to "work" for it anymore. Marriage isn't a single state, it's a process that requires constant maintainence, I do everything I can to stay in shape and appealing to my husband because I love him, and he does the same for me. I fully intend for him to be chasing me around the nursing home when we're 80 ;)
Oh, and this includes reading, and having interesting topics to discuss, because if he wanted a boring woman, he wouldn't have married an intelligent, opinionated red-head.
Kat at April 4, 2012 5:02 PM
And in the words of Dan Savage, settling down is settling for. Same exact concept, but I like the phrasing. And on whether men like smart women . . . it probably depends on the man? But that's a big self-selecting factor. If somebody wants a dumb girl, he's not going to be interested in me but then, my god why would I want him? No matter how many tennis bracelets he can give me (is that what women are supposed to want? I think so. Wouldn't know, have only ever dated artists, grad students, and musicians) or how stunningly well-endowed he might be (yeah, I prefer that by far to tennis bracelets and lobster dinners!), if all he wants to talk about is reality TV and his high-svhool football career, I don't think I'll be sticking around.
anathema at April 4, 2012 5:06 PM
A little off the subject: While it's true that women tend to go for men of power and status, the definition of power and status can change dramatically from subgroup to subgroup.
My brother is chronically unemployed, dumber than dog shit and an abusive asshole, but the women still throw themselves at him because he's attractive and strong, and he has a macho, confident attitude. The women he attracts tend to be white trash. He's considered alpha in white trash circles despite the fact that he's always broke. And these aren't teenage girls. These are 45-year-old women. These women don't go after high-earning accountants.
MonicaP at April 4, 2012 5:23 PM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/04/the-spinster-cy.html#comment-3121315">comment from KatI fully intend for him to be chasing me around the nursing home when we're 80 ;)
Love that.
It's respectful of your partner to maintain on all levels -- from looks to affection to sexual service provider-y.
Amy Alkon at April 4, 2012 5:59 PM
Yes and no. I found getting my Masters from an elite institution opened up doors in the dating world. I got bumped up to someone whose pedigree would make Mom think I might possibly be good enough for her genius son.
Don't overlook the Mom/Sister/Female friends factor.
BUT
But but but but but
My Masters is in Education, which practically screams "Good with kids!!!!" and "Non-threatening!!!!" "Will have summers off so will be available whenever it is you want to take your education!" "Your career will come first!"
Also, a Masters ain't a PhD.
So I got the benefits of the pedigree WITHOUT the minuses. Which was nice.
Gotta say, my MRS was my more valuable degree...
If I'd been the daughter of the local gas station attendant and only had a diploma, my husband wouldn't have married me. I asked him once. So my background and education do matter to him.
I don't see many men in my social circle marrying women without Masters degrees.
Also, I've noticed men like to brag about their wives' accomplishments at parties as much as the women do.
***
Sounds like LW's friend is trying to let her know-gently- that she might be a little unrealistic about her expectations. LW might be able to date men who are high-status MBAs or PHDs or whatever, but they're not going to look like Don Draper.
***
Yes, this. A lot of successful guys are dorky. If you're willing to overlook the dork factor you can go a long way.
NicoleK at April 5, 2012 4:21 AM
""Women's physical attractiveness is the best known predictor of the occupational status of the man she marries and the best known predictor of hypergamy."
I've often wondered whether some women are actually a kind of subspecies, their problems are so alien. Victoria Zdrok, Danica McKellar... there's a whole other level of achievement and social position I can't imagine.
Credentials, LW? Okay, good on you, that's a good label, but I hope you can demonstrate stellar thinking, as opposed to pointing at a certificate and money spent at a college. Part of the time, my job involves deconstructing the "work" of degreed professionals. When you're up to bat, you have to perform.
And this field you're on now is not that of your chosen profession, not at all.
Do you really think credentials matter to any fellow watching this video?
I can guarantee you that men think such a woman, if socially smart, can have anything - and I mean anything - she wants.
Radwaste at April 5, 2012 6:11 AM
If the LW isn't being pursued by guys she likes, then she needs to get hotter or settle. Welcome to girlville. Crying allowed in bathrooms only.
If she's lucky, and drawing upon my own experiences in PhD school, then getting hotter can be as simple as makeup, whore clothes, whore hair and talking less.
In any case, her PhD is entirely irrelevant in the all important "I'm checking out your face and ass" interaction step.
Good luck.
TheRealPeter at April 5, 2012 6:36 AM
Radwaste, are you in a technical field?
NicoleK at April 5, 2012 6:47 AM
What EvPsych folk don't seem to talk about, though, is that for every Barney who bangs lots of hot chicks, there's a Marshall who is faithful to his well-educated, medium-pretty Lilly.
NicoleK at April 5, 2012 6:55 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/04/the-spinster-cy.html#comment-3122576">comment from NicoleKWhat EvPsych folk don't seem to talk about, though, is that for every Barney who bangs lots of hot chicks, there's a Marshall who is faithful to his well-educated, medium-pretty Lilly.
What those who generalize about ev psych without reading the studies don't seem to realize is that studies show like typically mates with like (a 6 with a 5, and not a 9 with a 4), and that they also show that people have different preferences when going for casual sex and longterm partnerhood.
I don't know who Barney and Marshall are.
Amy Alkon at April 5, 2012 7:27 AM
"Radwaste, are you in a technical field?"
My "handle" is actually my profession - I'm a radioactive waste processor at Savannah River Site, under a Federal contract. For the last few years I've been assigned the job of determining what physical changes to the processing equipment will do to the rest of the plant and to our regulatory-grade documents and records.
Radwaste at April 5, 2012 9:46 AM
But, back on topic for the LW - you can do what you want, too.
You just have to accept that you can't change the rules of the game.
Radwaste at April 5, 2012 1:46 PM
Credentials, LW? Okay, good on you, that's a good label, but I hope you can demonstrate stellar thinking, as opposed to pointing at a certificate and money spent at a college.
Oh, my, yes. A couple of months ago, I was reading the comments on a post by one of my Facebook friends, and this woman chimed in by starting out with how she had a "near-genius IQ", then continued with one of the most meandering stream-of-consciousness blatherings I have ever had the misfortune to read. Obviously, we don't know how LW wrote most of her correspondence with Amy; it's just an example that "credentials" don't necessarily translate into real-world credibility. Others have pointed out above that how she views her Ph.D. is very important, too. If she sees it as a proof that she's smarter than everyone else in the room, that's going to chill her chances quite a bit.
WayneB at April 5, 2012 10:22 PM
My recentest ex was a professional architect/yuppie suburban trophy wife/cheer mom. I shoe horses for a living.
I thought there'd be an issue, but realized, her life is such a mess, she should look up to ME! Her friends made it plain to her, too.
jefe at April 5, 2012 10:47 PM
"their ideal man" would be "very rich, brilliant, genius"...
What confuses most men is that women's shopping lists come with a qualifier: ATTRACTION. Women never tell us that part.
What they REALLY mean is, "I want the man whom I'm ATTRACTED TO, to be very rich, brilliant, genius", etc. Actually, most of those shopping lists sound like the Boy Scout Pledge, except they start with "Honest".
When a woman meets a man who sets her panties on fire, her shopping list usually goes in the trash.
jefe at April 5, 2012 11:00 PM
I do think most educated men, at least in our culture, want a wife with a bachelor's degree, especially if they want kids. (And a woman who has one is more likely to meet an educated man in the first place.) Brains and the ability to earn a living and carry on a conversation do matter to men I know, despite cultural myths to the contrary. Mark Cuban and Bill Gates didn't exactly marry waitresses.
Additional levels of academia and power don't add anything to a woman's market value--I get that. But do they really /detract/ if she hasn't acquired an attitude of superiority and severity? Guys dig Danica McKeller and Megyn Kelly, right?
Radwaste, thanks for the video. I myself would like to know if such a woman can have anything she wants. The few I have known weren't very happy at all, but they made life choices that (to me) seemed stupid. Sometimes I think if I could be a solid 10 for a year, I would control the universe at the end of it.
But I also read a study once that said even though beauty matters a lot, a 10 doesn't have a huge life advantage over an 8.
Insufficient Poison at April 6, 2012 7:49 AM
Tim Dowling responds to Samantha Brick (hilarious): http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/apr/04/samantha-brick-hated-good-looks
Insufficient Poison at April 6, 2012 7:52 AM
@Radwaste:
about the interesting/funny picture you posted, I am not sure what you really wanted to demonstrate. Because if I have to be candid, I would have sex with any lady of the lower row, but I would have marry only the fourth and sixth lady on the first row, and none of the lower (sexy) row.
nico@hou at April 6, 2012 9:30 PM
Oh, ffs. nico, you do realize that those are the same women, don't you?
The idea is simple: hotness can be built from surprisingly modest materials.
Thus, there is little practical impediment to advertising for what you want.
Amy points out that men are overwhelmingly visual creatures. Hey, we hunt. If you don't look like game, you won't be pursued. At close range, smell becomes vitally important, too.
Here's a very real fact you just don't hear: Viagra and Cialis aren't out there just because men get old. Chilly, now, isn't it?
Radwaste at April 7, 2012 1:25 PM
LW,
You have had your head in the academic clouds for a long time. I can count the couples on 1 hand that both have a Ph.D. Most of the couples I know the man has a Ph.D and the woman a undergrad degree or a masters. If you are looking only at men at your educational level your pool is really small. I also know 4 couples where the woman is either a Ph.D or a MD. the husbands are in elementary education, an artist, a musician and a carpenter.
One of the couples had been a medical doctor with a Ph.D in immunology and she taught at a medical school, she had relationship after relationship with her "Peers" and now she is married to a man with a Master of fine arts, music who was teaching music at a private high school for the arts. In this man she found someone with the same kind of drive, same kind of passion she had for her profession. She found a man who wanted children and wanted children with her. He continued to teach until their first child was born and after that he stayed home with the baby so she could go back to work because she could earn so much more. He has three CD's out and does gigs all over the west carefully coordinating with his wife's schedule. For her part she went to work in public health, less money but a more regular schedule. I have to ask would any of your high powered peers be willing to do that? They have been together now for 15 years and they have never been happier.
Sit down and take an honest inventory of yourself, your strong points and your weak points. Even if you are an attractive woman there are ways to make yourself more attractive. All men are visual creatures! I am not saying to pile on the make up or put enough hairspray in your hair to punch another hole in the ozone. I am saying decide what kind of man you are hoping to attract. Throw out your preconceived notions of status and wealth and try to envision someone you can live with year after year.
Are you looking for a man who is athletic? You are a smart girl where do they go? Where do they play. Go there play their games with them.
There are meetups groups all the country google it and go to some meetups that are in your areas of interest. I do hope you have interests outside of your area of study and your work. If you do not join some meet ups, join some clubs and find something that interests you. Give each one a year and see if you meet men. I have a great opening line that always gets a man to talk to me and I am attractive but not beautiful. Hi, my name is Worthita and I am new to this group what is your name and what can you tell me about this group. Smile as you say it and for pity's sake, do not lead with your work and education. Why you ask? Because you should be so much more than your work and education. If you are not you will be boring.
Worthita at April 7, 2012 9:42 PM
@Sheep mommy -Wow this Samantha Brick is an average girl with a nice body. I have a friend who is the loveliest most caring person I know who is a super hot eastern european babe. I mean her face is easily a 9. And I never feel intimidate/hatred for her. We have been shopping and people (women especially) have come up to her randomly and said how beautiful she is.
Anyways as for smart girls that need to settle. I know alot of smart girls out there have a "list". Guy's I've dated told me about all the requirements they must meet before they can ever start dating, and it's ridiculous! Smart ladies your achievements don't impress them but your niceness and ability to laugh will.
Purplepen at April 8, 2012 3:15 AM
Take it back Samantha Brick has an average body geez....
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/04/06/samantha-brick-the-most-beautiful-woman-daily-mail_n_1407660.html
Purplepen at April 8, 2012 3:26 AM
Radwaste, I think you're saying Viagra and Cialis are often prescribed because older men have trouble getting it up with their older, unattractive wives.
I've asked two different doctors about that since I heard a shock jock say it, and they both said it's a myth. Erectile dysfunction is not diagnosed based on performance with a particular partner. It's based on the erection(s) a guy can get during the night, unassisted.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/sexual-health/sexual-dysfunction/self-test-for-diagnosing-erectile-dysfunction.htm
Lots of older guys with young partners have to take Viagra. Hugh Hefner has taken it for years. I dated an older guy in my late 20s who took it, even though his heart meds contraindicated it. He couldn't keep it up otherwise, with anyone, including himself.
Insufficient Poison at April 8, 2012 6:25 AM
She's a high powered career woman who wants an even higher-powered career guy, who's also good at household chores and baby wipes.
Not going to happen. Even if the man exists, he is guaranteed not to be looking for her. He would probably want someone domestic to care for the kids, who has, at most, a part-time job.
Patrick at April 8, 2012 11:10 AM
That letter made me think of Demi Moore & Ashton Kutcher. They were considered a Hollywood power couple. Demi Moore was considered very powerful in Holywood at that time
I guess the biological temptation of young starlets in bathtubs was too much.................
David H at April 9, 2012 8:41 AM
Amy Alkon
https://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2012/04/the-spinster-cy.html#comment-3130392">comment from David HHer mate value went down as they stayed together because she got older (less valuable in terms of her mate value as a woman) and so did he (increasing his mate value).
Amy Alkon at April 9, 2012 8:53 AM
Considering these principles of ev psych, why do you reckon they got together in the first place? Demi was already well past her peak fertility and beauty when they married. Kutcher, even then, could have had his choice of 20-year-old hotties.
Insufficient Poison at April 9, 2012 9:43 AM
"Erectile dysfunction is not diagnosed based on performance with a particular partner. It's based on the erection(s) a guy can get during the night, unassisted."
IP, do you recognize you're now saying hotness doesn't count?
I do not give a damn what I can do by myself. If you're not showing me something I want, I do not want that.
And we've had LWs on this site complain about their guy's performance as they grew fat.
There's your evidence.
Radwaste at April 11, 2012 7:46 PM
"I want a man who's taller than me, good-looking, ambitious, makes good money, who's funny and interesting, and by the way will marry me and not cheat and divorce me, etc., etc."
Society got around this problem in the past by making sure men were highly-paid (wages stopped going up in 1973, courtesy of the incompetent federal government) and women were kept out of jobs. A woman with a Ph.D.? Very rare.
Perhaps women would like to go back to those days?
Bob at April 17, 2012 1:04 PM
"Wow. When I clicked on the Samantha link, I was mentally preparing to weep in shame at my average looks while basking in the glory of her hotness. Not so much. I was even a little sympathetic that such an average-looking girl would get so many venomous comments."
One point, Daily Mail is a UK rag, and I've been there, UK women leave a lot to be desired ... I've travelled broadly and (sorry to say but) British women rated ugliest on my list of all the countries I've seen ... I can understand Samantha Brick's claims because by British standards she would be considered relatively unusually beautiful. She also has that plastic-y look that if you've been to London, you'll know is popular there for reasons nobody knows. And the pics of her younger - very nice.
"An observation: most women with impressive careers think that their impressive careers make them catches. Guys aren't wired that way. At a biological level we DON'T think that your PhD, JD, or MD makes you better wife and mother material. In fact, a woman five years younger with no accomplishments other than preschool teaching pushes the biological buttons."
This, this and this. My first thought really was 'but how pretty is LW'. Maybe if she focuses on her looks and perhaps motherly qualities a bit more she will have a better chance finding a good catch. Mr High-powered wants something good-looking on his arm, that's how it works ... look around at high-powered men, what do you see n their arms? Educated plain-looking women? No.
I've also noticed anecdotally that more educated women seem to have chips on their shoulders, but I can't judge them, I have no idea what life is like for them.
I used to want an intelligent, educated woman, until I met my wife, who is not very intellectual but good-hearted and motherly, and it works well, I meet my 'intellectual needs' elsewhere.
Lobster at April 23, 2012 4:30 AM
@Radwaste
Dunno if that pic you posted is real or not, but if so it confirms my view that a little effort in one's looks can go a long way even for women who might 'think' they are plain-looking. Often simple things like ditch glasses and big baggy clothes.
Lobster at April 23, 2012 4:41 AM
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