Canadian wiseguys The Pursuit of Happiness did a song that opened with the following tender quatrain:

If you shave your legs I'll stay home every night
I'll defer to you, I'll let you win every fight
I'll forget about all the things that you said
All the times you've hurt me and left me for dead

Relevance: to be determined later in the thread.

She pretty much doesn't care if she's attractive to him or not. I'd say he needs to carefully consider moving on.

It's a test. I recommend the LW fail it and celebrate his escape.

I suppose I would consider her attractive, if I were a gorilla.

People have differences. It doesn't sound like she's going to change on this. Can you live with it? (Probably easier if you live somewhere cold where people are wearing tights or pants eight months of the year anyhow).

If you can't live with it, you may just be incompatable. It doesn't make you right and her wrong, or her wrong and you right, it just means you want different things and those things are different enough that they can't be reconciled. And that's too bad, but sometimes it happens, and it's better to just move on.

If said girlfriend now embraces the hairy look, six months into the relationship, perhaps she was hairy all-along. Now, more secure as part of a couple, she reverts back.

ItsAbby - That was kind of what I was thinking.

But wait - she was shaving for the past 6 months and just now is stopping? That's not right, there's something passive-aggressive going on here.

Back in the days B.C. (Before Children), I was living with a guy who was the roadie for one of the bands I was in. It was during the winter, our apartment was small, on the 3rd floor of a house, and ran on one fuse. (yes, you read that right, one fuse. Bad landlord.) Anyway, I let the hair grow on my legs because we had a tub, but no shower, and it was a pain in the ass to shave every night. But after a couple of weeks, I decided I would shave because I missed my smooth, hairless legs! I ran a bath, light a candle, got in the tub, and put one leg on the edge of the tub and soaped up. Just as I was putting razor to skin, I heard a whisper from the doorway - "Timber!"

I never didn't shave my legs again! LOL!

He's only asking for pits and legs for chrissakes. That's pretty fair.

From a male perspective, my relatively new partner asked nicely if I would trim back the shrubbery. Given the incentives on offer, I was more than happy to do so. Good result for both of us.

I certainly didn't run around bemoaning the rule of the matriarchy.

I'm with Gog. It's a shit test. Refuse to take it.

It's one thing is she's young and this is just a phase, but it's not cool if she only shaved to attract him and is now turning back.

Word of warning BF - young people who resent maintaining their appearance become older people who resent taking care of their appearance, and you can't pull off unkempt and hairy past your early twenties. If you stay together and she keeps this up, you're going to have a girlfriend who looks like a middle aged man pretty soon.

an old friend of mine doesn't shave - she's an amazing musician, and i asked her to play in my wedding. when i told my fiancee, he said, can you ask her to shave for the occasion? my family coming up from the south wouldn't handle that (and they'd definitely see it; summer wedding and she doesn't wear much she doesn't have to). it made no difference to me, so i asked her. to my surprise, she was extremely offended. also to my surprise, i found her reaction extremely annoying. this was 5 years ago, and ever since i've noticed that being stubborn about body hair usually indicates other frustrating qualities, some of which are noted above. (she did end up shaving for the occasion, but not after humiliating my husband about it at the rehearsal dinner. a lot of people just need something to be self-righteous about.)

I agree, it's a sh!t test, and LW's best option is to fail it.
OTOH, he could take my lead: back in my younger days my life revolved around bike racing. Real bikies shave their legs. I still ride, I still shave (I'm not very hairy), and no woman has objected. Qid pro quo!

I say embrace it, and the next time she askes you to do ANYTHING say "Faux female need of male assistance is time-consuming and the idea that women should have men help them with anything comes from anti-feminist propaganda. I know you can do it yourself sweetie."

If that doesnt work, the next time you are making dinner, casually comment that "Washing your hands after getting shit on them just before cooking is time-consuming and the idea that it prevents food poisoning is just "Big Soap" propaganda."

It's gross. In my opinion.

But who am I to judge? I'm not into it. But that doesn't make it wrong.

For all we know, there's thousands of attractive, hot, hairy couples living their lives better, happier than any of us. They find each other's hairiness to be adorable. Good for them. GO hairy people.

We don't know why this girl is not shaving or what underlying reasons there might be. We have no real insight into what makes her tick.

What bothers me about many comments I've seen in various topics, is how quickly people are to judge others. How fast everyone says run away at the first sign of a problem, as if they themselves are perfectly normal, and have no issues.

Bah! Grow your hair. Grow your toenails. Get tattoos on your face. Do whatever you want to do. As long as you are not hurting anybody. F.U. society. Being 'normal' is overrated.

How fast everyone says run away at the first sign of a problem

First sign of a problem is when her behavior shifted.

'Why are you part of a vast global conspiracy trying to force me to shave my legs?' is batshit crazy

Good morning lujlp,

We don't know her age. In the context it's presented here, "anti-feminist propaganda" was the secondary reason she gave, after being time consuming. And the phrase itself, "anti-feminist propaganda", sounds like something she heard somewhere that she's just repeating out of frustration, the way people often do as natural defense, or pure ignorance.

I don't think you label a person batshit crazy based solely on not shaving their legs and armpits for a while. Maybe it's a brief stage that she will grow out of. A rebellious side she needs to conquer and control. Maybe the girl is just tired. How many hours does she work? What does she do? So many variables to consider. But don't write her off from being a decent, sane person, based on such a small example of who she is.

What she is doing is weird. But weird is not defined as wrong, or bad. It is simply different.

No offense. All good here. Just healthy debate.

I should admit, I am somewhat a defender of the weird, since by many of society's standards, I fall into that category myself. ;)

Tim, I don't much feel like showering every night, and I can go for two days and still be decent in society. I'm an engineer so they don't care if I have a three day growth. But my girlfriend always gets me fresh from the shower and clean shaven. Even if I don't feel like it. Because scratchy chins are bad, and my work colleagues aren't cuddling me.

The point is not that people get tired or whatever. That happens, and I'm sure if she just wanted the night off he'd be ok with that. The point is she snapped at him when he made a quite reasonable request.

And the most important point luj made - she used to do it, when they met. Now she's stopped. I think that's breaking the rules (same as stacking on 10 stone but expecting your partner to see you the same), and I think he's right to see a red flag in that change of behaviour. I figure she feels she's hooked her man and doesn't need to maintain "single" standards anymore.

Perhaps you are right. It's possible she has just lost respect for him and doesn't care anymore. Heck, it might actually be a hint, or attempt to push him away. Who knows.

Btw, if she's doing it to drive away the boyfriend, I think diabolically clever would be more accurate than batshit crazy. Heh. ;)

I did a Google search for "Hot women with hairy armpits" expecting to find ladies from other countries and cultures that were sexy in some raw, natural way. I was wrong. It's a complete turn-off. To me, in my opinion.

But they are not bad people. Well, who knows. They might be. They might be hairy serial killers who collect the body hairs of their victims. Or, they could just be people who for whatever reason, have chosen to be hairy. Don't judge them. Poor hairy people. lol

I sure hope I don't die suddenly and my last recorded activity is searching for Hot Women with Hairy Armpits. =)

>> 'Why are you part of a vast global conspiracy trying to force me to shave my legs?'

That's why I suspect she's really young. But if she's not it's a big red flag.

I have friends who went through a no-shaving phased in their early twenties. They'd probably have justified it similarly, but I think that in reality it was kind of a test. They wanted to see how far they could go until men no longer found them attractive. It's similar to getting a really short haircut or dressing like a guy.

Hmmm... Letting all their body hair grow out. Really short hair cuts. Dressing like a guy.

I would say if all 3 are happening, they are going past the point of men not finding them attractive, however they should be welcomed into a segment of the lesbian community with open arms.

it made no difference to me, so i asked her. to my surprise, she was extremely offended.

To be honest, Rachel Flax, I'd find your request offensive too as someone who's performed at friends/family's weddings (and, yes, I shave). This friend is not someone you (or anyone at the wedding) would have to be intimate with. You asked her to be there for her skills and then asked that she alter her physical appearance for some nebulous objections from family.

Now, if we're talking a conservative church or culture, you'd be well within your rights to ask her (and all guests) to cover up legs, put on a shawl or whatever. But I think your request falls into the category of asking a friend to shave a beard off for your wedding, asking someone to cut their hair, grow it to a certain length, or lose weight before doing a reading or singing in your wedding. Not OK.

If you think someone's appearance may bother your relatives, it's better not to ask them to perform at all.

That said, romantic partners (key phrase here) are different. If they're not attractive to you and won't change, then part ways. I broke up with a guy because he refused to stop wearing his nasty, smelly, falling-apart Birkenstocks everywhere.

Well that's an aspect of it as well. I think that a lot of what motivates young women to experiment w/ lesbianism is their discomfort w/ male attention. It's not that they aren't attracted to men, it's that suddenly every other guy they meet wants to get in their pants.

I think it's a lot more than just every other guy. I'd say four out of five guys.

sofar, I appreciate your perspective. i think what you articulated accounts for the weird feeling in my gut I had about the entire deal ... a part of me must have felt that way but not been in touch with it. I was out of touch with a lot of things at that time in my life. And my friend w/ the armpits seemed similarly without coping tools, based on her reaction, but luckily it didn't ruin our friendship. and it's true that this is a much different and bigger deal w/ romantic partners. this just got me thinking about women's armpit hair in particular, because i'm interested in women being self-righteous about certain grooming and/or beauty factors.

Massive shit test. She's pulling this crap because she thinks you don't have other options.

Tell her if she's not bald like a baby tomorrow, and EVERYWHERE except for her head, tell her you're through, and keep to your word. Do not "ask her," tell her. Be a man, show some confidence and stand up to her.

You've only been together for 6 months, which is not a long time. If its not working out, end it now instead of hating yourself for dating the Yeti.

@Rachel Flax

I just realized how bitchy in tone my post sounded (Sorry! I think I'm still recovering from being a bridesmaid at a wedding where the bride wanted us to get spray tans!)

I just re-read your post, and I think I missed the part at the end about how she humiliated your husband about it. Wow. I mean, I might not have been happy with such a request either, but there was always the option of her bowing out gracefully.

Glad you're still friends.

And, yeah, it is interesting how some people get self-righteous about grooming choices. A friend-of-a-friend was yacking the other day about how, if your partner really values you, you shouldn't have to shave your legs -- and that "real women" don't feel the need to. And was sitting there thinking, "Honey, you pay to get your eyebrows waxed. And you get manicures. Shut up."

I don't mind things growing out as long as it is not on the face (no bearded ladies for me!). But the "anti-feminist propaganda" response sets off all kinds of warning bells with me. I've heard those words before and any man who values his berries should run.

I just wanted to add some diversity of opinion to the comment section and offer some push back to the answer to this letter.

I find it really weird that so many people object so vocally to this. "She's doing it to push him away, she's trying to test him, he should run, it's gross, it's weird, she's not doing exactly what he wants, her 'behavior changed' it's a RED FLAG YOU GUYS, boohoohoo." Also: It couldn't possibly be sexist to expect women to remove all their body hair because Ovid said to do it 2,000 years ago in Rome, because don'tchaknow ancient Rome was known for its super-fair-and-equitable treatment of women? What?

I don't know if y'all know this, but hair grows on human bodies. Personally I find it "weird" that our culture is so obsessed with compulsively removing that hair. It is time-consuming; it does cost money; it can be painful and cause other problems. What is more weird, honestly: letting your body grow the hair how it naturally grows, or fighting a losing battle every single day against it?

Hey, you want her to shave. You asked. She said she's not interested in shaving her legs, and honestly any reason including no reason or "I just don't want to" is a valid one. I wouldn't ask her again unless you have something to bargain with (does she want you to grow sideburns but you hate the way they look on you? does she prefer you to wear tights but you don't want to? are your eyes blue but her preferred eye color is green? would you get some colored contacts? would you wear the tights? would you grow the sideburns?).

It's perfectly acceptable to break up with her for any reason. Please break up with her if you're dead set on shaved legs--you guys just want different things. No big deal. It doesn't sound all that serious--moving on is definitely an option.

I'm more with alpenglow on this one. She doesn't need a reason to let things grow out and he doesn't need a reason to dump her.

Also, I wanted to put in that not every man has a problem with this. I actually get turned on by a woman that lets things grow out. There are pheramones in there! It's very "continental" :) I will say, however, that once a woman starts shaving their armpits, legs, and whatnot, they've kind of committed to that. It obviously comes in thicker after that. If they've never shaved, it's quite wispy and naturally feminine. Either way, while I may be an outlier these days, I'm perfectly happy to go down on a gorilla salad.

The red flags are that she suddenly changed her behavior, tried to shame her BF into accepting it, and cited Feminism as her justification.

Like I stated, it's one thing if she's young and has an idealistic view of what Feminism is. But if she's a mature women pulling this, it really is a big red flag.

Let's be honest. Feminism is basically a hate ideology and the only reason we accept it is because we don't think that women have the rational faculties that men do. If there were a bunch of men running around harassing and degrading women and telling little boys about their penis magic, we'd lock them up. You certainly wouldn't be able to get a degree in penis magic.

When one partner says to the other, "I'm going to do something that will make me very unattractive to you, and I demand that you continue to love me and remain committed to me regardless", that's a shit test, regardless of how you rationalize it. I wonder what kind of reaction I'd get if I decided that mowing the lawn is an oppressive matriarchical concept and I refuse to participate in it any more. Hey, grass grows! That's natural!

"Personally I find it "weird" that our culture is so obsessed with compulsively removing that hair. It is time-consuming; it does cost money; it can be painful and cause other problems."

Oh please, what garbage. When I'm single, I'm a shave once a week kind of guy. My current partner likes me clean shaven, so I do it, even when I don't want to. Am I giving in to a social construct? No, she has quite sensitive skin and it's scratchy. Fair enough. A couple of my ex-partners didn't care.

Washing is unnatural too. Perhaps I should start showering once a month, whether I need it or not, and tell my girlfriend she should just get over it or dump me.

On second thoughts, I'm fond of her company. I think I'll stick with washing and shaving.

"It obviously comes in thicker after that."

Umm, bullshit. Cutting off dead skin cells doesn't change growth rates.

"You certainly wouldn't be able to get a degree in penis magic."

I have to get one of those printed up. I'm sure I can get a few teste-monial (sic) signatures for it!

I don't know if y'all know this, but [fungus]grows on human bodies. Personally I find it "weird" that our culture is so obsessed with compulsively removing that [fungus]. It is time-consuming; it does cost money; it can be painful and cause other problems. What is more weird, honestly: letting your body grow the [fungus] how it naturally grows, or fighting a losing battle every single day against it?

Its not the fact that she stopped. Its the fact that when reasonably and calmly asked about it she launched into a tirade about a centuries old international cabal controlling humanity known as 'The Patriachy'

Its not natural to wear clothes but we do. Its natural for women breast to migrate towards their knees, but the fight it. Its not natural to wash your hands after getting shit on them but we do.

Theres all kinds of crap we do that is NOT natural, some has applicable benefits, some dont, most are mainly for aesthetic reasons.

In this case she stopped shaving due to it all being about anti feminist propaganda. I notice, according to the letter, she hasnt stopped wearing bras, jewelry, or make up. Stopped bathing or wearing deodorant. Its such an odd thing to chose.

But again the point isnt that she stopped shaving. The point is she thinks its a global conspiracy.

milo - I'm down with being honest. Here's a truth bomb for you: what you said is ignorant. I'll leave aside the fact that discontinuing shaving is hardly a huge indication of behavioral change (it's quite superficial) and just say: she did not try to "shame" her boyfriend. She said that it was time consuming and anti-feminist propaganda. You know how you actually shame somebody? By saying "You’re so sexy except for ______," "I suppose I would find her attractive if I were a gorilla," or comparing a person unflatteringly to Chewbacca because she stopped using a razor on her legs. Or, "you, boyfriend-who-wants-me-to-shave, are a sick freak." That is shaming somebody.

"Oh please, what garbage. When I'm single, I'm a shave once a week kind of guy. My current partner likes me clean shaven, so I do it, even when I don't want to."
It sounds as if it would cause her physical pain to kiss her if you didn't shave--she has sensitive skin. You have made the choice to shave and kiss her rather than not shave and not kiss her. Fair enough indeed. I also want to say that razors can also hurt sensitive skin. When I shave I get angry red bumps all over. They itch, they hurt, and what's more, you can feel the stubble 8 hours later. I agree it's garbage--just not in the way you mean. Waxing hurts and can cause scarring, breakouts, ingrown hairs. The one time I used a depilatory it gave me a rash.

lujip - you're right, fungus does grow naturally on healthy bodies and it is unlikely that you could ever get rid of all of it and you would probably be silly to try. The LW did not say she "launched into a tirade"--you made that up. It's arguable whether clothes are "natural" or not (we evolved in warmer climes, and in those places people do tend to wear fewer clothes; to me it makes sense that we would alter animal skins or whatever we could to make wearable blankets as we moved our fur-free bodies into higher latitudes, so it seems fairly natural to me). Bathing actually is natural and many many animals do it in some form or another, from pigs to cockroaches. I can't speak for you, but most humans do have an ingrained aversion to and disgust for fecal matter; other animals do too, since poop can carry pathogens. You also can't tell from the letter if she stopped wearing a bra or makeup, or stopped bathing or wearing deodorant. It just doesn't say. Maybe she never wore makeup to begin with. Maybe the LW likes her bra-less-ness and it’s a nonissue. You and I have no idea. I don't know where you are getting that "the point" is that she thinks it’s a global conspiracy--the LW seemed much more interested in trying to get her to shave rather than that part. After all, his question wasn't "How do I get her to change her mind about feminism?" It was actually concerned with getting her to shave again; that was "the point" of the letter. I can see that YOU have a lot of anger surrounding feminism; the LW just wants hairless female legs.

I reiterate: if having shaven and/or hairless legs is a dealbreaker for you, don’t date someone who doesn’t shave and doesn’t want to. She’s not shaving. It sounds pretty clear to me that she does not want to. Feel free to extricate yourself from the relationship. You get to ask--once. You got an answer. She is exercising her choice to not shave her legs in the face of criticism from her boyfriend and the culture at large. Feel free to exercise your choice in finding a partner who shaves to your satisfaction. Pestering someone to do something with their body that you know they do not want to do is icky. Don’t do it.

It's pretty convenient how she finds feminism while she's a relationship, having ignored it all these years while unattached.

Just reminds me of women who think that once they've gotten the commitment from the guy and bore his children, it's okay to let go, and forget the swimsuit model figure that she had when they were married. Because she's got a ring and a marriage contract. It's harder for him to just up and leave.

No, if you were shaving your legs and hooked up with a guy who was attracted to you, you continue to shave your legs. If you had a svelte figure when you were dating a guy, you don't get to go up five dress sizes because he puts a ring on your finger.

It's called respect for your partner. If a woman marries a high-powered executive with a seven-figure income, he does not get to quit his job and become a struggling artist after they're married.

I don't think the fact that she no longer shaves her legs is about a larger issue. It's about her contempt for him.

@ sofar

no worries - i didn't find your tone bitchy at all :) and i feel your bridesmaid pain. do i ever.

this has been a really interesting discussion. one thing it's made me think about is the fact that i know men who are really attached to their beards, and others who shave/grow for fun and nothing more. maybe this all just comes down to control and choices; i'm sure my musician friend just didn't like the suggestion that someone else should have a say in her bodily choices, and i can't argue that.

@ Patrick

I hear what you are saying but where do we (as men) draw the line?

What if she wants to change the color of her hair? Is that OK? What if she wants a genital piercing to increase her own sexual pleasure but you don't want bling in her thing? What if she wants breast reduction surgery to relieve back pain? You love those big titties but what about her pain?

The stuff you mentioned about the female (not doing) was related to her appearance. The only thing you mentioned about the male (letting go) was his job. This gives me the impression of a very shallow relationship. If the only thing a man finds attractive about a woman is her body, or the only thing a woman likes about a man is his money, I think they are missing out on a lot.

Patrick, I'm not arguing with you. Just talking out my @ss. ;)

A woman that is OK with letting herself go, is free to go, because if what I like doesn't matter, then neither does she.

Well my exGF would take care of her pits just because of the environment she worked in. She would also generally take care of shaving her legs as well.

But for a while we had a Friday or Saturday night appointment in my garden tub (nicely sized) in which I would shave her legs and trim and shave other places. It was a little romantic treat for us, and I got to take care her needs. It made her feel appreciated, and gave us a chance to relax.

Why not remove the feminism/ evolutionary biology from the equation altogether? Strike a deal, she shaves her legs and he'll take up whatever manscaping she wants done. Then it's not a political statement, it's something you do for each other - tit for tat.

Huge red flag with flashing neon lights and sirens on it. If this is only 6 months into the relationship, it's not going to get better, it's only going to get worse. Tell her if you wanted to date a gorilla you'd go to the zoo. Blech.

My wife recently managed to convince me to also start full-body shaving, and never thought I'd say this, but I love it.

@"What is more weird, honestly: letting your body grow the hair how it naturally grows"

OK, I'm speaking from a man's perspective, I don't care what's 'weird', but I do know my quality of life is higher since I started keeping clean-shaven ... I look better, feel better, feel cleaner, smell better, have more sensation during sex, I itch less, my wife enjoys sex more, I get more blow-jobs, there aren't damn pubes clogging my drains anymore and I'm no longer having to constantly clean icky pubes from the bathroom floor). And just a few years ago I was an opinionated hairy dude who chanted things like "shaving is a plot by corporations to make us buy products we don't need bla bla".

Who cares what's "natural", we're well past "natural". If you care about "natural" then stop using electricity, computers, internet, phones, fridges, stop using any modern medicines, stop eating industrially-farmed food, stop driving cars, 'cause none of that is "natural". Farts are also "natural" and snot is also "natural", so is poop, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try keep those discreet either.

@"or fighting a losing battle every single day against it?"

I don't fight a losing battle, but a winning one .. it takes literally only maybe an extra hour or two a week, and a bit of extra cash for blades.

It IS a test, and that girlfriend can thank her lucky stars that her man seems to be failing it. Now she is free to cut him loose and find somebody who loves her for herself and not for some culturally conditioned standards which she doesn't choose to follow. Shaving (and trimming the "bushes")is definitely not the norm all over, and is found largely in the US. Take a trip beyond our own borders, travel overseas a little, and see how many women shave. To be culturally hidebound is to be mentally dead.

@"It IS a test"

I don't think it's a 'test', except that she's expressing who she is. Here's the real problem. What she's signalling is that her core philosophy is that she should never do anything to please a man. Think about that. That is the antithesis of any useful relationship philosophy - it's pure self-centeredness - the whole point of relationships is two people working in partnership to achieve some common, generally mutually beneficial goal (i.e. doing things for each other). If it runs against her most core principles to DO anything FOR you, trust me, you will find yourself down the road in an extremely one-sided relationship where you get no thanks and acknowledgement for anything you do, no support from her, no fulfilment of any needs or desires, and you'll be expected to just put up with it, any complaints will make you just part of the 'evil patriarchy'.

Do not under any circumstances marry this woman, unless you are a masochist and want to find yourself trapped in a miserable marriage longing for divorce, ending up losing half of everything, struggling to meet child support and seeing your kids every other weekend.

Her 'idiosyncracies' might seem tolerable now, when she's younger and still attractive 'enough', and there's no kids involved, and you're probably still getting relatively regular sex. But take a moment to consider what it will be like once you're trapped in a house full of screaming kids, you haven't had sex in months, she barely lets you see or touch her, you have no support structure, no gratitude, no help or support from her (because, remember, her most core philosophy is 'never do anything for a man') ... a relationship needs to be built on a strong foundation.

There. Is. No. Way. This. Relationship. Ends. Well.

NOTHING can save it or 'make it work', because you simply cannot build any relationship, ever, on the principle of 'never do anything to please the other person'.

I think you will be much happier if you just go get yourself, say, a nice young Thai woman who actually still has some desire to please you and do something for you out of love and care.

@"Take a trip beyond our own borders, travel overseas a little, and see how many women shave"

OK, only one data point, but I've been with women from Western Europe to China to Malaysia to Africa and all were smooth and largely clean-shaven, I've never seen hairy women anywhere as a norm.

@"Take a trip beyond our own borders, travel overseas a little, and see how many women shave"

As much as I disagree with NA, I agree with this point. Travel overseas a while, and see not only how women shave, but see the different mentality you encounter toward relationships as a whole. Your eyes will be opened. Once you've spent enough time with, say, some pleasant young Thai women to get used to the cultural differences, I doubt you'll even want to go back to Western women, and if you do, it'll only be because you miss the "familiar", not because your eyes weren't opened to how 'toxic' the relationship philosophy of Western women has become.

Women are welcome to flout 'cultural standards', of course, but you're in no way obligated to put up with it, you can take it or leave it, entirely guilt-free.

@"Travel overseas a while, and see not only how women shave"

To be clear, by that I mean, contrary to NA's suggestion, you'll probably be surprised that many are clean-shaven. And, you probably won't hear them moan about how it's a symbol of patriarchal oppression.