Historians say that 'chivalry' died at the Battle of Crecy in 1356, where English archers slaughtered the French nobility, not bothering to ransom the survivors.

"...grabbing battle-axes, donning blue face paint, and going all Mel Gibson on the fields of Scotland..."

And don't forget blaming Jews for all the wars in the world, telling his girlfriend that she deserved to be hit in the face while she was holding her child, telling her that she looks like "a fucking pig in heat" and that she will only have herself to blame if she gets "raped by a pack of niggers," referring to a lady cop as "sugar tis."

Could you have picked a less chivalrous human being to refer to while writing a piece on chivalry? If you did a piece on race relations, would you use an analogy involving Robert Byrd?

But poor choice for subject of metaphor aside, I find this woman rather off-putting. I hold the door open if I happen to see someone entering through a door as I'm exiting. Or if I happen to see someone approaching a door with their hands full. But this is done without regard to gender.

Chivalry has far less to do with defending the weak than with conduct on the battlefield, which is why I always find it amusing to hear a woman complain that chivalry is dead. A man might respond by challenging her to a fight, rather than holding the door open for her. If, for some reason, she has trouble handling a door, I would consider it but common courtesy to help her with it. But otherwise, she'll have to manage her own doors.

I dated someone who was different - someone who didn't open doors for me. It was fine. I certainly did not need someone to open a door for me when I was perfectly capable of doing it myself!

Then I had children. My husband didn't tote diaper bags, so I did - and my purse - and our son. I fell behind walking. Somehow invariably the door would almost come crashing into our baby's head. I could usually catch it with a shoulder. When I was by myself, I just backed into the door and got through it safely but having it let go several steps ahead was generally a disaster.

Before I had kids, I could carry my own suitcase, thank you very much but with the kids accoutrements it became difficult. Everything became difficult.

Now I'm sure that many men step up after the kids are born and start taking care of them, however knowing what I do now, I would choose a guy that took care of me even if I didn't need it so that if I did need it, I could count on that help. When I took over the childcare, it took time away from everything from housework, to my career, to my health. It would have been more fair to split the work but that wasn't happening and I would not let my children suffer so we evolved into a "more traditional" relationship - minus the chivalry. I would be happier if he was happy to take care of me. Of course, I never thought I would need it - but I was very wrong.

Jen, you dated a total clod. I'm sorry you went through that.

It is too much to ask because, if you're dating someone who was raised properly, you wouldn't have to ask. Up your standards.

I love that this has become an issue because it makes it so damned easy to make myself look really good. I really enjoy how easy it is to make my girlfriend feel very special simply by standing up when she walks into the room. She loves it. What? Is it a difficult thing to stand up? Is it a difficult thing to walk around a car and open the passenger door for your woman?

Fellas, if you're missing all these opportunities to almost effortlessly demonstrate respect and admiration for womanhood, then you're probably also missing out on a lot of home-cooked dinners, foot rubs, and blow jobs. Try it. It's way too easy. It almost feels like a scam.

Before anyone chimes in with, "These days, if you open a door for a woman, you'll get your head bit off", stop it. That doesn't happen, has never happened, never will, and you know this.

Before anyone chimes in with, "These days, if you open a door for a woman, you'll get your head bit off", stop it. That doesn't happen, has never happened, never will, and you know this.

Yes, it does happen. Willing, vollentary, enthusiastic sex also gets called rape

No "maybe" about it, feminism did much to kill the expressions of chivalry. It used to be that doing those things would earn a guy relationship points and enhance a woman's attraction. Nowadays it tags him as a beta male and puts him into the friend zone.

Before anyone chimes in with, "These days, if you open a door for a woman, you'll get your head bit off", stop it. That doesn't happen, has never happened, never will, and you know this.

Yeah, I think the WORST I've seen is someone failing to say "thank you." I'm a woman, though, so I get that men may have had different experiences when holding the door.

Personally, I'm friends with some of the most aggressive, non-shaving, pit-hair-dying, masculine-dressing, mohawk-having, martial-arts-doing, self-identified feminists who walk the earth, and they say a cheery "Thank you so much!" when someone of EITHER gender holds the door -- or when a man, with an arm gesture and slight bow, allows us ladies to step into the elevator first (a common thing in Texas). Such gestures are taken as a kindness, and the correct response to kindness is "thank you."

WhistleDick, it has happened, it does happen, and I've seen it happen, to my husband no less. He saw a woman coming out of his office with her arms full of binders so he waited behind me to hold the door for her. She tried to rip into him for disrespecting her, for assuming that she was incompetent and unable to open a door for herself.

I loved his response: No, I assumed you were a human being who would appreciate common courtesy, not a raging bitch with no manners.

As for the whole standing when a woman enters a room or getting a car door thing, fine, if you want to go through all that then do it. Don’t say it’s all about respect, though, it's all just part of the mating dance. Like you said, it's an easy way for guys to get in good with a girl -- usually one who's not used to being treated like a person with value as any girl with self-worth will see through put-on manners. If you're only doing it to impress the girl, and it's not something you'd do for the rest of your life once you're married, then it is a scam, but no worse than dressing up for dinner instead of wearing your dingy work jeans, or dying those grey hairs you started getting at 22. Unless you're standing for every woman who enters a room, you aren't "showing respect and admiration for womanhood" so much as fluffing up those peacock feathers to look better than the other boys.

Don't stop, though. There’s nothing wrong with stacking the dating odds in your favor by being attentive to your date.

"Even very young boys show a love (not shared by girls) of play fighting, of having an "enemy" to battle, and of weaponry -- to the point where Benenson finds it common for boys in preschool who lack toy guns to shoot "bullets" out of a doll's head."

Can confirm. When my oldest son was a tot, I refused to allow him to play with guns and refused to have even so much as a squirt gun in the house...until I looked into the backyard and saw him playing army with sprinkler parts rubber banded together. My younger son had a fine collection of super soakers.

My husband is as chivalrous as they come and I love it. I think if men allow themselves to follow their instincts, they naturally want to protect the woman they love. Respectful manners are a natural form of this.

In the state of NorCal, particularly the People's Republic of Berkeley and the over privileged areas of PaloAlto and SF, demonstrating any traditional civility is going to instantly turn into a major screaming public shaming for being a non PC, genderist,socio-neo-colonialist oppressor, and a host of other terminology I no longer bother to keep up with.
I have found that it is mostly OK to hold a door open for a male with packages even if his gender is non specific, but it is generally safer just to let a door slam in the face of, or push off the sidewalk anything that looks phenotypically female and is under 70 years of age.
To do other wise is to trigger a public rage for having victimized and oppressed the recipient of what used to be a common courtesy.

“Chivalry,” huh? Well, there still is a kind of chivalry out there, LW, just not what you think. I don’t open doors for my lady, unless she needs help. She drives, mostly, because she’s more comfortable doing that. She has WAY more tools than I have. I have no interest in Valentine’s Day or other candy-coated holidays. I do find her and give her a kiss on equinox and solstice because why not? That, and nobody on TV told me to by flowers and candy, or watch out! She’ll dump you in the doghouse! I’m not good at doing what people tell me to do.

I never wanted a woman to be dependent upon me to fight her fights, shelter her from the world, make her feel pretty and protected. I pretty much wanted a partner. I like women who can take care of themselves. I don’t mind helping when help is needed. I’m not willing to jump through hoops just to demonstrate my devotion.

Here’s what seals the deal: She’s got my six. Every time. No questions, no caviling, no whining, no failure. In turn, I back her up - not fight for her, but I’ll hold her coat, look dangerous and take out anyone who is trying to sneak up behind her. No questions asked.

“Got your six.” That’s a military thing, so I guess it’s a kind of chivalry. It’s not all hearts and flowers - we’re both pretty prickly people, but there is a level of trust between us that matches anything I experienced on patrol in the jungle.

Plus she’s fun to sleep with. So there’s that.

There it is, LW. Chivalry is not dead. Feminism didn’t kill it, it freed it up for ladies to participate. You’re just doing it wrong.

That's not chivalry, it's wooing. And yes, most male->female wooing is dead. And yes, feminism killed it. The person with the most to lose has to be enticed into the relationship. Historically that was women. Been that way for thousands of year, so yes there is even an evolutionary angle to it. But today in most of the western world men are in the more precarious position. So women have to woo men if they want a relationship.

Jeebus. I had to skim over some of the whole, "everyone who lives in my bioregion is a lesbian man-hater who will taze you if you dare to hold the door." I'm sure sorry these self proclaimed "alpha males" have had such terrible experiences, but i still don't think it's that common. I won't say never happens, because any asshole thing you can think of, someone's probably done. But I've lived in Berkeley/San Francisco or New York (which I assume is also a terrible place for Alpha Males (TM) since they let women have corporate jobs and stuff there). I've never seen this sort of dickery from women. I also hold doors for dudes if I happen to get there first or if they're carrying stuff, not because I want to smash the patriarchy while burning my very expensive lacy bra, but because I'm not an asshole.

I will say that there is a certain class of man (technical term, "douchebags") who does something nice--holds the door, helps you pick up a heavy box, etc.--and then gets super angry and even abusive when you won't then give him your number, or a blowjob in the hotel lobby, or whatever. "But I'm a gentleman! I tipped my fedora to you! WHY WON'T YOU BONE MEEEEEEEEE!?!" I think these blokes may be giving perfectly reasonable door-holders a bad name. Just a thought.

P.S. Minos, I think I love you. I will hold the door for you any day of the week!

Not surprisingly, she is sleeping with the guy who ISN'T chivalrous, while the guy who IS gets friend-zoned. Pretty much summarizes my experiences and explains why chivalry is dying.

Chivalry is not dead. Feminism didn’t kill it, it freed it up for ladies to participate. You’re just doing it wrong.

Perfect.

I recall one occasion, I opened the door for a woman and gestured for her to pass through, she refused to take a step because it had been opened for her.

She then proceeded to tell me that she didn't need a man to open doors for her.

If my eyes could have rolled further they'd have been out of my head and down upon the floor, passing through the door in her place.

EvilEmpryss,

"Don’t say it’s all about respect, though, it's all just part of the mating dance."

For the record, I stand up when any woman walks into the room and it's not something that stops after I get comfortable with someone. My ex-wife still gets the same car door and standing treatment and I'm certainly not trying to woo her. It certainly is about respect and it's a habit that just so happens to help in romantic relationships as well.

I think that Snoopy made a very astute observation.

That the LW cannot see any relationship between the following two statements is a bit concerning:

"I just feel that for most men, chivalry is dead."

and

"Is it really so much to ask for a guy I'm actually sleeping with to at least hold the door open for me?"

Clearly the LW has a set of priorities that are in conflict.

If having a man behave in a deferential way toward you is a critical priority then that is a trait that should be toward the top of your list when selecting a sexual partner.

Based upon the LWs benavior, there are obviously other factors the LW thinks are far more important than chivalry when it comes to her romantic partners.

That is fine... but then it doesn't make a great deal of sense to get bent out of shape about deferential treatment when the guy she is sleeping with apparently meets those other criteria.

As a side note... her friend has cancer and she is visiting to help him... why is she the one sleeping in while he getting up early and preparing breakfast for her?

If anything he could use the extra rest while she takes care of him during this difficult time.

I've never seen a rude retort to a courteous gesture, and the only thing colder than the weather here is the people. Maybe it's because I'm old.

@"Don’t say it’s all about respect, though, it's all just part of the mating dance"

Or, perhaps, sometimes, just sometimes, men just do something out of a sense of decency, and that's all. Why does every manifestation of decency HAVE TO be torn down and denigrated and re-framed as something selfish? You're really inadvertently just perpetuating the feminist line that men don't do anything good.

Some people are jerks sometimes. If you find yourself holding open a lot of doors and a lot of women are shutting you down, maybe you should stop saying, "Hey, cunt, I'm holding this door for you."

Why does every manifestation of decency HAVE TO be torn down and denigrated and re-framed as something selfish?

While I get your sentiment, the fact remains everything we do is because of self interest. Good, bad, indifferent, self destructive, altruistic, all of it boils down to self interest.

How can it not?

dear LW.

you have just been accorded the ultimate physical representation of this idea: "What people say is less important than what they do."

The guy you are ACTUALLY sleeping with? Pay attention to what he does, and you may be surprised at how many good[or bad] things you miss. Particularly his apparent acceptance of you "spending the night with a guy friend".

Bear in mind that the guy yo are supposedly sleeping with may well be paying attention to what YOU do, as well.

I pulled my pink tool box out of the closet last night to finally fix a towel holder, after several months. My hunny saw me and jumped up and grabbed the tools I had pulled out and organized. "Why now?", I asked. He said,"because I'm the man of the house...". He took off down the hall, pink tools in hand and I could hear him mutter, "when you're not around."

Life is life. He opens doors, walks on the outside of the sidewalk and cooks the majority of the time. I hold doors open for both men and women and really appreciate and thank folks who do so for me... It's just being a cordial human.

@"I hold doors open for both men and women ... It's just being a cordial human"

I'm told it's self-interest, 'all just part of the mating dance', obviously you just want to get in their pants./sarcasm

I used to open doors for women (zero "self-interest" and it definitely wasn't to get into their pants, it was just something I was taught to do as basic courtesy and good manners), not sure why I stopped but I think it boils down to what bkmale said above, "Nowadays it tags him as a beta male and puts him into the friend zone"

Jen, it's been two days since I read your comment, and I still can't get the image of you husband, repeatedly letting the door slam on his wife and child, out of my head.

What's up with that? Why are you doing all the parenting yourself? Did he actually want kids?

I've had it happen. I think a lot of the ladies here who say they've never seen it, it's because they don't hang around with those types of women.

In my experience, it's concentrated in certain parts of the country. L.A. is the worst. I'm pretty careful about who I hold a door for there. I haven't spent much time around Berkeley, so I don't know if it's worse than SoCal. I don't get it that much in New York -- I might be ignored, but hey, New Yorkers, so it's cool. Sometimes I get a weird look, like, "What are you doing? I've never seen anyone do that before."

I particularly like to help with elevators, because elevator doors can be evil if the safeties aren't adjusted right. I'm strong enough to physically hold the door back if it looks like it's going to hurt someone. A lot of women, and some men, aren't. Also, I once worked in a facility that had a very heavy security door, and the door was only allowed to be open for ten seconds or some such before the alarm went off. The more petite women simply could not wrestle the door open and get through in the time allowed. We had an informal system where, if one of them came to the door and there wasn't someone around to help with it, there was a list of us men she could call to get help with the door.

I got the bitchiest response of my life when I opened a door for 2 college wenches in Boulder Colorado at a restaurant that my brother worked at. They did this long mocking thank you and treated me like I was a special ed rapist. I'm not gonna waste my effort.And no, I was not leering at them sexually, far from it.

I have certainly got rude comments for holding the door open. Not so much here but where I used to live...maybe because I don't tend to hold doors open and so many doors here are automatic. Where I used to live I would say it happened about twice a year.

The weirdest one was date...I am supposed to operate the car door for her but opening and holding the restaurant door open was a real no no.

A number of places I have worked there is a two door entry where the first door has to close before you can open the second which also kind of broke the routine of holding open a door.

I found when dating that doing things like regularly holding the door open resulted in the expectation of more accommodation in the long run.

Getting treated bad for holding the door open, it does happen but it is rare. Just like getting bit by a dog you tried to pet. How many times do you get bit before you stop trying to pet peoples dogs.
But the real kicker is if there is little to no advantage in doing it.
Do women not date men who don't open doors?
Do women not marry them?
Does it help or actually hinder a guy in the dating market?
I'd put that down as it depends, mainly on the age and location (South it probably helps, urban North it hurts) I'd say it more likely gets a guy labeled as a "nice guy" and put in the friend zone.

Boulder, that's another place. If I never have the opportunity to set foot there again, it won't bother me a bit.

Wow, the much-vaunted "friend zone" sure is getting a workout in this comment string. All sarcasm aside, from the blokes here who clearly know what it is and how it works, please explain, because I genuinely find it confusing. As I understand it, the concept is that a woman wants to fuck you until you do something nice, and then it makes you immediately unfuckable and you are relegated to the horrible status of friend, and nobody has sex with their friends (that's why we need the term "frenemies with benefits"). Is that basically it?

I think I'm a bad test case, because I really enjoy sex, so if I think a guy is hot, some horrible "beta male" behavior like holding the door for me, or returning my texts, or performing foreplay isn't going to get me to "friendzone" him because, well, then I don't get the sex anymore. (Let's leave out the whole part where some of the best casual sex is with friends, not random strangers who never hold the door for anyone.)

But these women are out there, yeah? The ones who are super hot for you until you do one tiny little thing to mess it up? It seems . . . odd. But then, I guess I hang out with the wrong people. Heck, I even have sex with some of them.

"As I understand it, the concept is that a woman wants to fuck you until you do something nice, and then it makes you immediately unfuckable and you are relegated to the horrible status of friend..."

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell. You've probably heard the term "Madonna-whore complex". This is the mirror image of that. Some women (emphasis on the word "some") hold that there is one type of guy to value as a life-made and source of support, and another type of guy to actually be in love with and get down and dirty with, and the two are mutually exclusive. (It plays a lot into the category of women who are serial abusees -- they are sexually attracted to men who mistreat them, and they are *not* sexually attracted to men who treat them respectfully.) However, they don't mind leading on the "nice guys" in order to retain them as a source of emotional, and sometimes financial, support.

That's what has set some people off in this thread. The LW's letter kind of reads like she expects to receive the benefits of a love relationship, without any reciprocity on her part.

I disagree that there is anything beta-male or friend-zoning about holding the door for a lady. As my old-school blue-collar father taught me, that's the best way to check out her ass. If you're worried about coming off as too nice, make a cheap but complimentary remark as she sways by you.

Another point of chivalry. After a drunk chick pukes, give her a deep french kiss. Chicks are neurotic about their daintiness and men must convey that ladies are always ladies even when they're not.

On a related note, guys, earn your red wings.

"...telling his girlfriend that she deserved to be hit in the face while she was holding her child, telling her that she looks like "a fucking pig in heat" and that she will only have herself to blame if she gets "raped by a pack of niggers,..."

There's a comedian on tour who says, roughly, "My guy and I are Italian, and when we fight... we saw that thing about Mel Gibson and his girlfriend and said, 'Awww! He loves her!'"

-----

"Personally, I'm friends with some of the most aggressive, non-shaving, pit-hair-dying, masculine-dressing, mohawk-having, martial-arts-doing, self-identified feminists who walk the earth, and they say a cheery "Thank you so much!" when someone of EITHER gender holds the door..."

It's a confidence thing. Nobody with control issues can stand the petty suggestion that they can't do this simple thing - opening a door. If you can kick an ass or kiss one with confidence, doors are not a problem for you!

Never, never perform an act of courtesy, particularly at work place.
If you are lucky it will merely be interpreted as sign of weakness, being courteous is like swimming in chum, the sharks will soon be circling you.
At worst , you will be looking forward to long hours of re education by the HR minions, followed by career death.
Rude is good, rude shows you are strong and are out to dominate in all ways. The ruder , more viscious , more unheplful the higher you will clig, at least where I work.

There are two ways for (normal) men to procure nookie: sexual begging, or "game". Sexual begging is much like regular begging: You ask someone to give you something without any obligation on their part while you ply them with flattery or gifts. Think of it as similar to when someone throws a big open house party to get suckers, er, buyers for some condo development. Hopefully, the realtor makes money but a lot of moochers show up for the free booze and cheesedip. At least I did. (Oh, and they're GREAT places to pick up women!)

Take notes, "gentlemen" because although I like Amy, I think she has her own selfish interests at heart and will throw you under the bus. Consider her "equal doesn't mean the same" saying so commonly used by double dipper women who say they want 'equality' when it suits them. Equality does mean the same. Look it up on the dictionary: "equality: synonym: same." Sure, Amy likes it when men ply her with stuff as other women do, but that doesn't mean that it's in your best interests to do so anymore than I would advise a woman friend to sleep with as many random men as possible in the hopes one of them will make a good husband.

Let's review the origins of chivalry: The "bloke" giving "gentlemen" a bad name referred to by Anathema who open doors but demand numbers are more in line with old-style chivalry than beggars. Old-style chivalry was similar to conduct of war agreements today to not attack unarmed civilians. Civilians of the time included peasant men. As societies became more affluent (especially recently) and less men were peasants, women and children were left in need of protection. That protection wasn't free. A man providing protection for random women and plying them with gifts doesn't help him get laid but almost always the opposite: He appears "desperate" while he increases her self-esteem (and thinks she can do better.). If a "true" gentlemen holds open doors not expecting anything in return, he's succeeding since it likely isn't helping him.

Begging is different than "game". "Game" is strategically utilizing and displaying your assets to make yourself more attractive. Nice jeans for a man, for example, makes him more attractive. So does expressing humor and making a clever pickup line show his audacity and bravery that makes his genetic line a good one for mating with. It's like makeup for men. "Game" for women is handing out sexual treats like a dog handler (and there's multiple books on these "games" that encourage women to do just that, as if most young women don't know these basic tips already). For men, it also means handing out protection and intellectual stimulation sparingly while displaying it prominently. Giving yourself away is, well, just that.

All that said, sure, hold open the door but make sure she holds your arm (that single element of touch conveys, see above, ownership). A "lady" won't refuse to hold your arm on a first date. A "lady" will accept that you'll review the menu and ask what she wants out of a selection you make. A "lady" who makes suggestions for restaurants she wants to go to (at your expense) will accept that you reject ALL of them and make the selection yourself (because if she's making the choices while you just finance them, then you're just a banker for her to stuff her face and then shag a bad boy.) Get it? Chivalry conveys ownership. Equal is the same and women can't have the 19th century without all the rest of it. Those voting booths are dangerous. Us "gentlemen" will protect you from them...