The Eager Has Landed
I'm a 26-year-old guy. In four years, I've taken three dozen women on one or two dates each. Without fail, I get rejected. I've tried changing things up -- shameless flirting instead of casual small talk, etc. -- but the result is always the same. I'm not some loser. I have a cool job and an active social life. But I'm the common denominator in things not working out. What am I doing wrong that I can't even swing a third date?
--Bummed
Consider the fine-French-restaurant approach. Before the first course is served, the chef will sometimes send you out a tiny, delectable palate teaser, called an "amuse-bouche" (mouth amuser) -- as opposed to sending out two burly waiters to hold you down and force-feed you a vat of stew. (What's French for "fatten you up for the kill"?)
In other words, chances are, your problem is one of presentation -- and yours is probably dragging you across the loserhood equator from nice to needy. Granted, you won't be every woman's cauldron of bouillabaisse, and maybe some of your prospects were out of your league. But 36 different women? That's three egg cartons of ladies all saying nuh-uh to a second or third date with you. And if there's one thing that women have in common, it's the ability to sniff out Eau Pleeeeeease, Pick Meeee! on a guy.
Consider "the scarcity principle," which, as social psychologist Robert Cialdini explains, describes how we tend to long for what's out of reach. Try a little test: Make an effort to make much less effort. Ask women about themselves instead of trying to hard-sell them on you (either by singing your own praises or complimenting them senseless). As I often advise, keep your dates cheap, short, and local. Especially short. (Leave them wanting more instead of less.) And sure, text a woman -- once, the afternoon after, not 26 times in the 20 seconds after you drop her off. If you and a woman get into a long-distance thing, it shouldn't be because you'll go to jail if you violate the 100-yard rule mandated by the judge.
Maybe he has a brutally honest friend that might have some feedback? It's hard to imagine that whatever he's doing to repel the ladies, he's only doing it on dates. Or maybe a friend has heard something from one of these ladies he could relay.
Ahw at December 7, 2016 8:29 AM
36? No way we're getting the full story here. LW is either a troll, or a MAJOR creep.
Don't get a creep vibe from the letter, so I vote for troll. I mean, people who are on that "Women don't want nice guys, won't give a nice guy a break" trip can't go 8 sentences without a mysogynist rant.
Troll.
minos at December 7, 2016 8:39 AM
I mean, people who are on that "Women don't want nice guys, won't give a nice guy a break" trip can't go 8 sentences without a mysogynist rant.
Hee hee hee ... I agree. They aren't actually nice guys.
Pirate Jo at December 7, 2016 9:06 AM
Minos,
The letter indicates that they are 26... not 36.
That decade probably makes a huge difference here because the average 26 year old is most likely interested in dating women who are between 20 and 24. Women of this age bracket are a bit more fickle than their 30 year old counterparts, which might help explain some of what is going on here.
Dating people in their early 20's simply isn't the same as dating people in their early 30's.
Artemis at December 7, 2016 9:22 AM
Agreed with ahw -- you need to get some "real talk" from someone you trust. Or, if there's a woman you went out with who rejected you for date 3 but is still in your social circle and you're friendly with her, maybe ask her for some pointers?
I know a guy who is great as a friend, awesome job, killer social life, but hadn't been able to get a second or third date. It's because he's VERY overly critical. That can be a fun feature in a casual friend but can come across as negativity on a date. I told him this recently and he had NO IDEA he came off that way.
sofar at December 7, 2016 9:26 AM
"I've tried changing things up -- shameless flirting instead of casual small talk, etc."
ahw and sofar probably are close to the mark. His trying to "change things up" is probably typical for a mid-20's w/no real life yet and no close friend ("Dude! Did you really say that?")
The "I'm no loser." remark came off defensive to me so his personal skills may need some work (normal).
Stop trying so hard. Be yourself (make sure kind is how people describe you). Recognize that personal growth is HARD so don't blame others unless there's a good reason ("Man, does she ever stop talking!").
Bob in Texas at December 7, 2016 11:51 AM
"I have a cool job and an active social life." Then what are you doing 'dating?' Flowers, dinner, wine, desert, hold the door open. That's for 17 year-olds on prom night and husbands on anniversaries. You're three or four years out of college, maybe you should just hang out with some chicks instead of making it a formal interview process.
smurfy at December 7, 2016 11:53 AM
My bet is he comes off as anxious.
Ppen at December 7, 2016 2:51 PM
Whenever I mention dating gurus and pickup artists on here, I draw a lot of troll-style hate. The fact is, they are geared for helping men who literally CANNOT get a date, and I would highly advise LW to start consulting a few of them. What they mostly do is empower men to put themselves 'out there'. They teach a lot about psychology, what works, what doesn't, and WHY. When I got my first computer, at age forty! it was partly to play the internet dating. I immediately realized I had no idea what I was doing, so on an intuition I googled "Pick Up Women". The first thing it gave me was Pickupguide.com, and when I began reading it, I was gobsmacked. When I read the page of slang terms and acronyms, I knew I was in the right place. At the very top was "AFC", or Average Frustrated Chump, aka "Nice Guy". Where had all this knowledge been hiding when I was starting out? It didn't exist back then. Today it does.
jefe at December 7, 2016 6:51 PM
What jefe said.
Also a plug for my favorite first read for the clueless Nice Guy, Dr. Robert Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy." So much about the world and its people and myself that that book showed me. Should be mandatory reading for every 20-something male.
bkmale at December 8, 2016 9:42 AM
I'm curious about the "cool job."
I've met few women who care about the coolness of a job. They care about things like whether it pays enough to live on, if there is upward potential (especially my younger friends), and, for some, the job's perceived social status.
Is he a musician who has a cool job, but very little prospect of leaving his mother's basement? Or is his job cool, but only to him and perhaps he talks about it too much?
For that matter, many jobs, especially for younger workers, are transitory. So he might be Mr. Cool Sales Guy (or whatever) now, but will he be in 3 years? The fact that his job is what he's looking to as part of why he is or isn't date-worthy suggests that he is missing the point. People date other people, not job titles.
Shannon at December 9, 2016 5:28 AM
Have you watched Mad Men? What makes Don Draper so irresistible? He keeps his mouth shut and allows an air of mystery to develop. I am happily married now, but went on about 100 dates in my single years. These are my top turnoffs:
Talking about an exgirlfriend or exwife. No matter what you say about an ex, it will not make you more attractive.
Any sign of addiction. Drinking too much, smoking pot or tobacco, gambling.
Dandruff, body odor, bad breath.
Immaturity. If I'm going to have a relationship with a guy (not a fling) he has to know who he is. He has to have integrity. That means saying no sometimes. Standing up for your values is very attractive.
If you really like a girl, tell her what's special about her and only her. I had no patience for a guy that hit on all my friends in turn hoping that one of us would take the bait.
When you don't click on the first or second date, be thankful that you are one step closer to your true match. In the meantime, make yourself interesting. Read, pursue adventure, develop friendships with unusual people. Let women discover tidbits about you over time. Don't rush.
FrauleinGretel at December 9, 2016 10:10 AM
bkmale plugs Robert Glover here, and he's actually on Amy's link list. To this I would add David Deangelo's and Michael Mark's e-newsletters. There are many others, as well! Not just required reading for 20-somewthing men, I would teach this to schoolkids beginning in the 8th grade.
jef at December 9, 2016 1:29 PM
Some good points being made here. I'd like to add the maybe the LW's choice of women could add to the problem. I have a friend whose tastes lean toward young, capricious little butterflies. However, he then bemoans that they don't want to just be alone and share quiet times. Perhaps LW likes the good aspects of impulsivity (excitement! fun!), but doesn't realize that it comes at a price (no commitment).
Wallawallawanda at December 10, 2016 5:05 AM
Your problem is that you are 26.
I don't know where you are, but many women aren't serious yet at that age. Especially if you are dating a couple years younger. They may be looking for random hook-ups, they may just be going out on dates for seeing how it goes, whatever.
One specific thing you can do, is try kissing the girl at the end of the first date, if you find her attractive. If she goes for it, great. If not, you don't need to bother with the next two dates.
Keep the first date casual and inexpensive, but pay. Coffee. Or food somewhere good but not too pricey, a nice pizzeria or Indian place or whatever.
DO NOT talk about your "issues" too early. I had guys do that on the first date or so. Major turn off. The first few dates are to get a general overview of who you are. If daddy issues or whatever are such an important part of you that you need to bring it up when we are near strangers, it's a red flag. The time to confide your deepest problems is later.
If you want a LTR and not a random hook-up, look for girls who are more serious and down-to earth and not wild partiers.
It's hard to give feedback without knowing where you are picking up women, and what your type of gal is.
NicoleK at December 10, 2016 7:41 AM
I am going the St Thomas More route in giving advice.
Go out and do interesting things and meet interesting people.
Dress Well all the time. If you lack that skill, find a personal shopper or a gay man to help you out.
Be successful at your job. Compliment all your co-workers when they do a good job but DO A GOOD JOB. Try hard for that next promotion.
Go to the gym. No...not the cardio machines. No...not the Nautilus Machines either. Go to the free weights and eat protein and lift heavy weights until you cry and wake up every morning with a groan. (For the love of God, don't pick up gym women! Make them do the work to save you the embarrassment)
Be a good person. Not a 'nice guy'. Have boundaries.
Don't waste time with people who clearly don't like you.
If being interesting, successful, well dressed and fit isn't enough for women, then honestly, who needs them at that point?
At least you've lived well.
And I am guessing this might work.
FIDO at December 10, 2016 7:45 PM
This FrauleinGretel person - she is such a nice addition to the commenters here.
What she said about talking about exes!
I don't know that anyone here is familiar with RAGBRAI - the Register's Annual Great Bike Ride Across Iowa. (The 'Register' being the primary Des Moines newspaper, which organizes it.) It's a lovely (if a bit hot and crowded) week of riding your bike across the state in July.
I met this hot guy in one of the towns, back when I was a single lass, and he seemed to like me, and I thought I had scored big-time in finding a hottie to ride with for a ways. Turns out, all he wanted to talk about was How His Ex Done Him Wrong. Mile after mile after mile.
In those days I was quite speedy on a bike, but I guess I made a mistake in picking a fit guy to pick up, because no matter how hard I rode I just couldn't ditch him. He kept up with me effortlessly, just nattering on and on about what a witch his ex was. I joked about charging him $75 an hour for this therapy, and he dutifully laughed, but then went right back into the bottomless abyss of complaining about his divorce. He even said that his friends had taken to calling him "Bitterman!" Gee, ya think???
At least I was able to out-drink him. Ditched him at the next town.
Pirate Jo at December 13, 2016 2:39 PM
I love the response to this (and I believe Amy's right, it will work), but if he doesn't address the root problem, he'll be writing to Amy in a year saying he just can't land a seventh date. I dated this guy with an exciting job and great car and if he took Amy's advice, we would've went on a second date for sure, but eventually I would've realized he didn't respect himself (or women) to ACTUALLY want a connection, he just REALLY wanted to date me for unknown reasons. He saved me the trouble and let me know early, but I would've found out sooner or later. LW has a cool job? Go to therapy. It's great.
"Eau please!" Amy, I love you, you're a genius.
Mary at December 16, 2016 1:40 AM
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