Pleaser Burn
My problem is that I'll go on one or two dates with a girl and then get the whole "I just wanna be friends." And they really mean that. They want me to do lunch and go shopping and talk on the phone about their guy problems. How can I nicely tell these girls, "I don't want to hurt your feelings, but no, I'm not going to be your friend -- and I especially don't want to hear about your new guy"? I guess the problem boils down to the fact that I don't want to make a woman mad.
--Frustrated
Over and over, you hear the same thing -- basically, "Sorry...we have to turn down your application for CEO, but we'd love to have you as our parking attendant."
By the way, your first problem is that you're wrong about what your problem is. It isn't how to TELL a woman you aren't up for the role of pet eunuch. It's how to BE the man holding her in his arms instead of the one holding her purse while she's exploring her options in the tampon section.
Consider what the ladies tend to want -- whether the ladies are hermit crabs or humans. Evolutionary biologist Robert Trivers' theory of "parental investment" explains that in species that provide continuing care for their young after they're born, females have evolved to go for "dominant" males. Dominance translates to being more able to "provide protection and material support" (through physical ability, as well as high social status).
However, the term "dominant" is a little...uh...unrefined. Women aren't looking to be dragged off into the sunset by some thug. Social psychologist Jerry M. Burger and one of his students, Mica Cosby, took a nuanced look at dominance and found that women overwhelmingly want a man who is "confident" and "assertive" as their ideal date or romantic partner. And though most also want a man who's "sensitive" and "easygoing," none -- NOT ONE -- of the 118 women they surveyed wanted a man who is "submissive."
Chances are, "submissive" is exactly how you're coming off. Your pleaserboy bottom line -- "I don't want to make a woman mad" -- suggests a hunger for women's approval and probably leads you to wilt like a man-daisy to avoid even the slightest conflict. Unfortunately, that won't get you out of the friend zone. What will is self-respect -- and the assertiveness that comes out of it: showing that you have opinions, needs, and preferences, and tough tostadas if a woman doesn't like them. This, of course, doesn't mean being rigidly uncompromising. However, when you do sacrifice your needs, it should be because you feel good about doing something nice -- not because you're dreaming of a day when your "Well, hellooo, gorgeous!" won't be followed by "Thanks! And I seriously appreciate your watching Senor Fluffyface while I'm on my date."
Have this song on your phone to play for the next woman who does this.
Rex Little at April 18, 2017 9:33 PM
LW,
1. Please decide how MANY women you want in your life based on your time and monies available for them. This of course includes your 'must haves' (Mother, Sisters, true Friends).
2. Then decide how you to ALLOCATE your time/monies between the women you've picked.
3. The outcome of the DECISIONS you've made should clear up what your NEEDS are, HOW you are going to me those needs, and WHEN to move on from those that do not move you towards your GOALS.
Sure, the people at the office that turned you down for a job are nice but you don't buy them doughnuts anymore.
Bob in Texas at April 19, 2017 5:29 AM
"I just want to be friends."
"No." Then turn and walk away.
Try it.
Chester White at April 19, 2017 5:31 AM
"How can I nicely tell these girls, "I don't want to hurt your feelings"
Don't be nice. They're not being "nice" to you. Hurt their feelings a little so they don't crap on the next guy too, would ya pal? Thanks.
Gog_Magog_Carpet_Reclaimers at April 19, 2017 9:50 AM
When you don't have assertiveness skills you're really only bound to attract egocentric and exploitative women.
Think about the lack of empathy it takes in an adult woman to talk about their personal romantic life with a man who asked them out on multiple dates. That is full blown inconsiderate and unkind behavior.
If a woman goes full on batshit because you don't want to be friends then she is full on insane and that is not in any way shape or form your responsibility. "No" is something every person of worth on this planet expects to hear from time to time.
The only way to attract good women is for you to learn to say "no" to entitled women. That takes practice. Your inner self will do everything to rebel against saying "no"
Lemme ask you LW, why would a woman want to be with a man who lets egocentric and exploitative women use him because they just need some attention? That sure sounds like a real fun man to date and build your life around. A man who can't say no.
Ppen at April 19, 2017 11:57 AM
Think about the lack of empathy it takes in an adult woman to talk about their personal romantic life with a man who asked them out on multiple dates.
That's a really good point.
As someone who has in the past (and still, sometimes) has lacked assertiveness, I've found it's a useful exercise to ask yourself, "Would I ever do what this person is doing to me?"
sofar at April 19, 2017 12:23 PM
As a member of the BDSM community, I can tell you that a *lot* of kinky women want a submissive guy. But (a) kinky women is a small subset of all women, and (b) kinky dominant women a subset of that group. And, finally, (c) even women looking for a submissive are looking for one who's fun, intelligent, interesting, and has his life together. So, ya know, no easy outs there.
Anathema at April 19, 2017 2:02 PM
I recall an advice column about what to do when a woman is giving you a hard time. Walk away.
Well, now. That was HAWT.
"We want to see your strength."
My thought was they'd see my strength disappearing over the horizon in search of an adult.
You don't have to control everything around you to be assertive and dominant. You have to have a life which includes boundaries and you don't let what's around you transgress those boundaries.
Richard Aubrey at April 19, 2017 3:31 PM
Lately I just tell women straight, "I don't do friendzone." Then give them a chance to decide, if you stay in my life we're have something sexual, otherwise, bye. If they say no, then that's it, no hard feelings, there are other fish in the sea.
You could start by saying something just like what you said:
"no, I'm not going to be your friend -- and I especially don't want to hear about your new guy"
That's not a bad wording, but leave off the "I don't to hurt your feelings" part, don't be apologetic, you haven't done anything wrong, you're just telling someone else what you want, and you won't be hurting their feelings.
Step one though, locate your balls.
It's nothing to be ashamed of to want sex. If I am interested/pursuing, I'll try maximum twice, if she still isn't interested I move on - it's just wasting time, and in any case you don't wanna be stalkery.
Lobster at April 20, 2017 8:23 AM
Okay. Here is the deal.
You are hoping that suddenly, out of the blue, Penny from the Big Bang Theory, will suddenly discover how great you are as Leonard if you just STICK AROUND!
That is force written. Real life isn't like that.
What was it Chris Rock said? Ninety percent of the mad a woman has at you is because you weren't her first choice. Yet you are happy to maybe be her 10th choice.
BUT, you are not unintelligent or unaware. So this is not your only strategy. You think that if you hang with Penny, ala Wallowitz, you might pick up a Bernadette who constantly sees what a great guy you are.
You are trying to use Penny as your PR vector and your 'access to women' vector so you don't have to actually go through the distressing ritual of 'cold calling' a woman. You are trying to accept the 'friendzone' as a dating service.
Except that Bernadette will see 'Hey...Penny gets Wallowitz and Leonard and Sheldon to do her laundry FOR NOTHING. I gotta get me some of that one sided action!"
And you are right where you started from.
So here is the question you (constantly) need to ask yourself: What is this girl doing for ME? What 'value' do I get besides 'good guy' points for being her emotional tampon?
If the answer is 'non-sexual company whenever she isn't too busy with the important people in her life', then you might need to rethink things.
So I don't mind that you get friendzoned. BUT...Penny better be introducing you to all her single girlfriends or you...
Well...you what? You don't like confrontation.
Okay. WHY CONFRONT THEM? They give you nothing, you owe them nothing so just 'fade away'.* Never text right back, and don't answer a call unless it is VERY CONVENIENT TO YOU (you are bored off your ass)
Never initiate a call or text to a 'friend'. That isn't mean. That is 'time management.' If THEY want to be with you, that is okay. And maybe by not being their desperate attention monkey, they may rethink the value they get from you when they are no longer getting it for free!
I have adopted a strict policy that 'I don't need anymore female friends.' I already have enough.
But yes. How will you be ready to disappoint a woman in a relationship if you aren't willing to disappoint her now?
*Amy has given a strict downvote to this for a dating couple who isn't interested but, and I can't emphasize this enough: YOU ARE NOT DATING!
FIDO at April 23, 2017 11:21 AM
Just to clarify.
If you are not dating a woman, you can 'fade away' any time you want to by suddenly not initiating those calls or texts (and you will be heartbroken and saddened to find out how rarely SHE initiates such calls and texts when you aren't pushing the issue)
If you DATED a woman and find yourself not interested, it is, as Amy says, a douchey thing to just 'disappear'. Just 'Well that was okay. Maybe I will see you randomly on the street' so she isn't hanging by the phone.
I have been on dates where the woman clearly wasn't that into me. Why do that to yourself?
So yes, if she friendzone's you, just fade away.
FIDO at April 23, 2017 11:28 AM
I think Leonard and Penny are a terriblw couple, as are Amy and Sheldon. Amy and Leonard, however, would be a great couple.i wish they could see it.
Nicolek at April 26, 2017 2:26 PM
LW should read up on Ladder Theory. LT says that men put all women on the same 'Ladder' in terms of fnckability. Women have TWO 'ladders'-- one for men they'd fnck, and one for all of their 'friends'. Women and men get lumped together on the Friends Ladder. That's why if LW tried to hit on a LJBF for actual sex, she'd be repelled just like if one of her galpals tried to hit on her for sex. LW needs to learn how to "Ladder Jump", from her Friends Ladder to her REAL Ladder. Below and between, there is no safety net, only The Abyss. If she kicks him into The Abyss, it's not as bad as it sounds, since it frees him of a one-sided, going-nowhere relationship.
FWIW, I've had generally fine results just playing along with a LJBF. Sometimes we end up having sex, other times there's a serious reason we need to keep separate. Right now I have the hots for a lady who's a total sweetheart; genius IQ, voice to die for, and gorgeous. Too bad: She has NO self esteem and suffers clinical depression. She's going on 70 years of age!
If more women could age so well, we'd quit making rude jokes about them.
jefe at April 26, 2017 3:44 PM
I was that guy once. And I just didn't get it. I wanted to bed women SO bad and wanted to show them that I really was nice and no threat and so respectful. And it got me nowhere, most of the time.
Well, a few years ago I got divorced (so, clearly, I actually did manage to bed the odd woman) and getting out of that marriage...I don't know. I guess I'd figured out that women really are a lot like people and I started treating them as such. And boy, did it work! There I was, a slightly balding man in his mid 30's, telling women they would ALWAYS come second or third to my kids, that I didn't want another friend but someone to have naked and oiled up on all four in my sofa and I got laid ALL the time. Weird part was, I wasn't really that set on finding women. I met them here and there and didn't desperately want to bed them. I didn't need their approval. I'm sure a lot have found me annoying or obnoxius, but I didn't need all of them to like me.
Jesper at April 28, 2017 1:16 AM
"I have adopted a strict policy that 'I don't need anymore female friends.' I already have enough."
Nice of you to warn us that your interest in women begins and ends at the crotch.
Dana Carpender at April 30, 2017 2:11 PM
The general experience of a guy 'friendzoned' by a woman is that she likes having access to his time, resources, emotional support and him dancing attendance...without reciprocating a damn thing besides the 'pleasure of her personality'. As long as, you know, no one better is around at the moment.
'Friends' like that I do not need.
FIDO at May 1, 2017 1:00 AM
I understand not wanting to be in the "friendzone". If I want to hang out with a guy, I am sexually interested in him.
I don't see why a woman would want to hang out with a man as "just friends" who obviously wants to more than that. Maybe it's a control issue?
Becky at May 5, 2017 10:17 AM
It's true, as ppen said, a real woman expects a real man or partner to say no once in awhile, everyone needs to hear it and move forward. It's kinda sexy sometimes
Jess at May 11, 2017 7:53 PM
Dana, while having an understandable but uncharitable way of looking at my comment, is correct in chiding the comment, but is also missing the point.
The man is offering Lady X a specific type of relationship. "I want to be your lover/bedmate."
Seems like a pretty straightforward proposal. Yes or no.
Instead, he gets a counter proposal of 'I do not want that relationship. How about instead I offer a relationship where I am always there for you when I need you?"
This sap is not smart enough to say no to that kind of one sided relationship or to understand that it is not particularly good for his self esteem or resources.
If she rejects him once, single blow to ego, go off and lick your wounds, get on with life and ask the next girl.
Instead he is hoping to 'buy' her love with acts of compassion, which she probably finds as pressing as he finds the constant rejection as lover as soul eroding.
So it would be healthier for him to cut her lose and seek what he wants with someone who wants it, not hoping to guilt or buy what he wants from someone who isn't buying what he is selling.
He is seeking a role as a love interest, not a minor part in her entourage. He should keep looking for that Lover and not filling his black book with a long list of 'Never Happening'.
FIDO at May 14, 2017 4:16 AM
Leave a comment