Seipp On Underparented Show Biz Brats
Cathy Seipp reports in National Review Online that it's the kids who are unsuccessful in show biz who are the most ill-mannered -- not the successful ones. She also quotes from my recent blog post on my encounter with a bellowing underparented toddler:
My friend Amy Alkon, a syndicated advice columnist who's always tangling with the parents of badly behaved children in cafes near her Venice-beach home, calls this indulgent style of child-rearing "go-right-ahead mommying." The other day, she stepped in when one of these oblivious moms plopped a howling, chair-kicking toddler down on a stool and then went to stand in line for coffee."You need to be quiet," Amy told the child. "It makes it not nice for all the other people here if you're making all this noise." Miraculously, the child did indeed quiet down, perhaps shocked into silence by a stranger's disapproval.
"My reward for my triumph for drive-by parenting?" Amy recounted on her blog. "His mother marched over to my table, shaking with rage, and demanded, 'Did you just reprimand my child? It isn't your job to reprimand my child!' I agreed with her ó no, it isn't my job ó and what a shame that the person whose job it is isn't doing it."
NRO reader "K" e-mailed me about my remarks in Cathy's piece. He was not amused, and got into some volunteer nannying of his own:
amy, got whiff of your drive-by parenting in a NRO catherine seipp article.İ some kids do need a little verbal attention from the 'village'.İ but, as bad as a screaming child is,İ it isİinappropriate for a stranger toİaddress someone elses child.İİif you ever feelİinclined to complain about such behavior, ADDRESS THE ADULT WHO IS NOT ACTING PROPERLY, NEVER THE CHILD.and rememberİ 1] you're in a public place, 2] where there are numerousİadults who are annoying...to us parents.İ if you want peace and quiet; if you want privacy, GO SOMEWHERE PRIVATE.İ otherwise,İlighten up there.İ-K
Okay, "K", point by point, here goes:
1. "it isİinappropriate for a stranger toİaddress someone elses child."
ME: Inappropriate says whom?
2. "...if you ever feelİinclined to complain about such behavior, ADDRESS THE ADULT WHO IS NOT ACTING PROPERLY, NEVER THE CHILD."
ME: Thanks, but since mommy seemed utterly incapable of managing her children, wouldn't it have been an act of futility? I actually provided her with an example of effective parenting - one I'm sure she's too self-absorbed to learn from.
3. "and rememberİ 1] you're in a public place, 2] where there are numerousİadults who are annoying...to us parents.İ if you want peace and quiet; if you want privacy, GO SOMEWHERE PRIVATE.İ otherwise,İlighten up there."
ME: If you're in a private place -- ie, your apartment or home, which you pay to live in, you are free to let your children run around screaming if you so desire (providing they don't knock out the eardrums of the people next door while doing so). In a private place, you need to be concerned with the needs of others -- starting with their need to remain sane for most of their adults lives.If the public place is a nursery school, I would be inappropriate in acting on my desire to read the paper in peace and quiet. In the Rose Cafe, I like to hear the quiet murmer of adult conversation interspersed with their classical music. Apparently, others feel the same, since I can't imagine they're being deluged with requests to hear the sounds of screaming children piped in over their loudspeakers. Or are they? Hmmm.
Does it "take a village" to shut up a child? No, but you can bet the "village" was thrilled to have a grumpy, meddling crank like me around after they got to go back to reading their morning papers in peace.
UPDATE: More comments on this over in Seipp-land.
Besides which, the phrase "drive-by parenting" is exactly backwards in this case.
Jim Treacher at April 22, 2004 1:43 AM
I rarely have to say anything to anyone's kid. I have spent years perfecting a certain glare that stops them dead in their tracks. That way, no one knows I've done anything except the kid, who now keeps a wary eye on me and his little trap shut.
Peggy C at April 22, 2004 7:16 AM
How did we get to the point where a statement like "it isİinappropriate for a stranger toİaddress someone elses child" doesn't sound totally ridiculous to 99% of the population? Call me crazy, but if my kid was making a racket in public and I wasn't there to quiet her down, I would hope that *someone* would let her know that she was disturbing other people.
It just makes me laugh to read of someone trying to make a case that "if you go out in public, then you should expect to be interrupted by my kids", and in the same breath "if I go out in public with my kids, then I expect you not to talk to them." You can't have it both ways....
Andrew W at April 22, 2004 8:17 AM
Reading this, I remember all the times when we were kids, and we'd be playing too loud, and the parents would say, "Take it outside"; the grandparents, "Children should be seen and not heard." Part of the problem, I think, is that privileged parents here in LA insist on taking kids to adult spaces. I know for sure my mother did not haul me and my brother to cafes so she coulde have endless cups of coffee with her friends. Sure, we went to friends' homes, where we played with other kids. Anyone who expects a three-year old to sit quietly while mom yaks about Pilates and pilot season is delusional.
nancy at April 22, 2004 9:51 AM
Yeah, Nancy, you're absolutely right.
Amy Alkon at April 22, 2004 9:55 AM
Amy, I wish I had your chutzpah (I mean that in a nice way) to dress that kid down. I just wonder, where have all the babysitters gone? When I go to the movies, I see parents bringing infants to the theater. What happened to leaving your kids at home with the babysitter?
Ary at April 22, 2004 12:56 PM
Well the price of babysitting, by the hour, is about the same as the price of admission for a 2 hour movie. Just one reason why home-theater is such a growing market.
A.Ho at April 22, 2004 6:52 PM
If indignant mom is so concerned about strangers making contact with her kids, why is she plopping a child down on a stool, then going off to stand in line? Isn't that negligent, shall we say? A child abductor could have easily made off with the kid while Mommy was standing in line, and Mommy would have been lucky to get a description of the back the abductor's head.
Patrick at April 23, 2004 7:20 AM
we have a theater where i live that has a nursery in it and parents still take their kids in the movies with them. i get really annoyed when parents bring their kids to R-rated movies! for one, it's completely inappropriate, for another, i want to enjoy it without crying and yelling. but i guess adults don't know how to shut up either, completely different pet peeve. i think that if the parent is not responsible enough to take care of their brat, then they should allow someone else to! but, even though she's not thanking you, i do!
lauren at April 23, 2004 11:30 AM
As an LA parent myself for the last 11 years, I was uplifted to read your observation that children are status symbols in this place. That fact alone has truly soured me on Los Angeles, but I've always been unsure of my conclusion, wondering if this whole country is afflicted with "child as glossy, expensive object" disease. Gotta say though, go to Chicago in the warm months and you can count the exposed pregnant bellies on one hand. Not so here, where status begins at conception.
Curtis at April 23, 2004 12:39 PM
Curtis, it's always comforting to know there are at least one or two LA-based parents actually interested in the business of parenting. I've probably posted this before on my blog, but growing up in Michigan, I was convinced, at around age 8, that I could fly, but the idea that I would EVER be loud in a public place (that wasn't a playground, etc.), or kick somebody's seat in a movie theater did not exist for me as what might be possible in the universe.
Amy Alkon at April 23, 2004 2:19 PM
> How did we get to the point where a statement
> like "it is inappropriate for a stranger to
> address someone elses child" doesn't sound
> totally ridiculous to 99% of the population?
Exactly!
I hate it when people dream up new commandments, as did Amy's correspondent:
> "...if you ever feel inclined to complain
> about such behavior, ADDRESS THE ADULT WHO IS
> NOT ACTING PROPERLY, NEVER THE CHILD."
Who put you in charge of the word 'never,' babe?
Crid at April 26, 2004 12:02 PM
I grew up the same way Amy. It would never have occurred to me as a kid to act up in public. That would definitely annoy the person I wished to annoy the least in the world, my Dad.
Last year I was at a school play with my son and nephew. During the intermission the boys started running around down by the stage making a racquet. I called to them, they looked at me, I drew my finger across my throat and they both immediately sat down. A woman sitting near me said "That was impressive." No, its simply the rules. We don't disturb others in public. There's plenty of time for noise and fooling around at home or where its appropriate.
Arthur at April 26, 2004 12:04 PM
i was dining out a few weeks ago with friends. this wasn't a classy establishment or anything -- just a mexican restaraunt. it's usually loud and anything goes, so screaming children are usually found in abundance. but it's a given so no one gets irritated.
on our way out the door there was a two-year-old lying on the floor in front of the gumball machine screaming and kicking. his dad picked him up and said, "no, we're leaving." and walked out.
i wanted to shake that man's hand. it's not often you find a parent that will say 'no' to their offspring, esp one in the midst of a tantrum.
*tami* at April 27, 2004 2:18 PM
You rock! As far as I'm concerned, you did EXACTLY the right thing. I have a not-quite four-year-old, and you'd be amazed (well, maybe not) about how many comments my husband and I get for being "too strict" with him in public. By my lights, compared to my parents' (especially my dad's) standards, we're positively laid back, but then we're "old" parents. However, the idea that one would "glare at," much less reprimand one's child in public appears to be a sign of incipient abuse among the more "enlightened" with whom we share public spaces. I don't get it: Aren't we supposed to be raising our kids to conduct themselves in a manner that gets them IN doors, not kicked out before before they reach the front porch? While I certainly don't humiliate my child and try to head things off so that he's not even unnecessarily embarassed, when it comes right down to it, there's an important lesson to be learned: if you don't want to be embarassed in public, THEN DON'T BEHAVE IN A WAY THAT EARNS THAT SITUATION.
The saddest thing is that nowadays, it's apparently objectionable for even relatives--aunts, uncles etc.-- to correct their nieces, nephews etc. How does that attitude reconcile with the "it takes a village' point of view? I'm flummoxed--and very disinclined to take charge of (as in outings) kids over whom I'm not permitted the appropriate limited authority. Boy, are we ever a long, long, long way from the days when any mother/father who saw misbehavior in the neighborhood had the right--even obligation--to comment ... and when you raced home to tell your mom you got in trouble before she found out from someone else.
By the way, we get compliments on our child's manners (appropriate to his age, of course) all the time, and it is VERY possible to take him to even nice restaurants. The second best part is the "thanks" we get from servers/managers; the best is the glow of pride my son exhibits when they thank him for being such a pleasure.
Iowa Mommy at April 28, 2004 9:28 AM
My favorite story happened a few years back. An acquaintence of mine, Joannie, had a seven year old boy. She had to leave him alone with some other friends while she went off for a bit. The kid started acting up and immediately got reprimanded. When Joannie came back, the reprimander told her, "Sorry, Joannie, but I had to yell at your kid." Joannie's response: "Why? Was he too far away to hit?"
nancy at April 28, 2004 12:10 PM
I'm liking Joannie a lot!
Amy Alkon at April 28, 2004 4:44 PM